Rhialto the Marvelous
March 26th, 2007, 10:17 PM
I looked over Marc's "Foundational Document" for Traveller again (hosted at downport) and found the last para intriguing, to say the least:
THERE’S MORE!
There is so much more to the Traveller universe that can only be touched on here: The Zhodani expeditions to the core of the galaxy. The Psionic Suppressions. The Julian War. The Ilelish Revolt. The First Survey. The Solomani Rim Wars. The Hiver Interventions. The Virus Era. The Regency. The Far Far Future. The Expeditions to the Rim. The Heat Death of the Universe. Each of these milieux (or eras) is another opportunity to provide participants with adventure and insight into the human condition as they explore the comprehensive science-fiction universe that is Traveller.Expeditions to the Rim?
Heat Death?
Yes, please. Publish immediately.
THERE’S MORE!
There is so much more to the Traveller universe that can only be touched on here: The Zhodani expeditions to the core of the galaxy. The Psionic Suppressions. The Julian War. The Ilelish Revolt. The First Survey. The Solomani Rim Wars. The Hiver Interventions. The Virus Era. The Regency. The Far Far Future. The Expeditions to the Rim. The Heat Death of the Universe. Each of these milieux (or eras) is another opportunity to provide participants with adventure and insight into the human condition as they explore the comprehensive science-fiction universe that is Traveller.Expeditions to the Rim?
Heat Death?
Yes, please. Publish immediately.
Redcap
March 26th, 2007, 10:25 PM
Heat Death of the Universe: Think Boyles' Law on the Macro scale as the Universe compresses back from the Big Bang. And you thought travelling on the London Underground was a bit of a squish in the rush hour graemlins/file_23.gif
far-trader
March 26th, 2007, 10:46 PM
I thought the compressive end of it all is "The Big Crunch" theory, where the universe has enough mass to reverse its current expansion and collapse to a singularity; while "Heat Death" is simply the total loss of all free energy from all particles in the universe, i.e. maximum entropy, just a big null. And I really don't see any reason to game in such a universe. I mean what would there be to do?!
Rhialto the Marvelous
March 26th, 2007, 11:03 PM
We-hell... how about some hard sci-fi version of Fading Suns?
As in, while scores of the populace go religious, general instability, sects and snake oil dealers galore, some brave heroes and Imperial science organizations seek rational solutions for stemming the tide of entropy against all odds.
Is the Reverse Entropificator, set in motion by the light of a thousand suns focused on a single target, but a pipe dream of the desperate?
Naturally, as always, the Hivers know the answer but they ain't telling.
As in, while scores of the populace go religious, general instability, sects and snake oil dealers galore, some brave heroes and Imperial science organizations seek rational solutions for stemming the tide of entropy against all odds.
Is the Reverse Entropificator, set in motion by the light of a thousand suns focused on a single target, but a pipe dream of the desperate?
Naturally, as always, the Hivers know the answer but they ain't telling.
far-trader
March 27th, 2007, 12:32 AM
Well yeah but Marc said "The Heat Death of the Universe" which I took to mean at or near the end, and that is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far in the future as to be unimaginable.
Nothing even remotely resembling humanity will be around at that time or for many, many, many uncounted millenia before.
It'll all be cold, dark, particles seperated by billions and billions and billions of kilometers of colder, darker, empty space.
I mean, it's as close to a void as you can get and still count something for a long time before you actually reach the end.
All the planets have long since spun away from their suns and gone cold, and the stars themselves have long ago wandered away from the galaxies and gone cold, and even the black holes have all evaporated ages ago.
There... is... nothing... .
I can't believe Marc was serious about setting a game in such a time. At least not something we'd recognize as Traveller. It has to be a Red Herring or a joke. Or he meant something else. Or I'm just not getting the idea.
Nothing even remotely resembling humanity will be around at that time or for many, many, many uncounted millenia before.
It'll all be cold, dark, particles seperated by billions and billions and billions of kilometers of colder, darker, empty space.
I mean, it's as close to a void as you can get and still count something for a long time before you actually reach the end.
All the planets have long since spun away from their suns and gone cold, and the stars themselves have long ago wandered away from the galaxies and gone cold, and even the black holes have all evaporated ages ago.
There... is... nothing... .
I can't believe Marc was serious about setting a game in such a time. At least not something we'd recognize as Traveller. It has to be a Red Herring or a joke. Or he meant something else. Or I'm just not getting the idea.
Rhialto the Marvelous
March 27th, 2007, 01:09 AM
One can only speculate, but when I read this I thought I had a hunch of what he was up to--
The other day I read an interview with Greg Stafford, in which he stated he's ultimately planning to have Glorantha--his RQ setting which he's been developing for like 4 decades, depending on how one counts--be utterly destroyed.
He justified this by saying he wants to leave a clean slate--if someone's going to continue the Glorantha work, it'd be better to start afresh.
Maybe something like that is on Marc's mind also. It's a chilling idea but also kinda awesome.
The other day I read an interview with Greg Stafford, in which he stated he's ultimately planning to have Glorantha--his RQ setting which he's been developing for like 4 decades, depending on how one counts--be utterly destroyed.
He justified this by saying he wants to leave a clean slate--if someone's going to continue the Glorantha work, it'd be better to start afresh.
Maybe something like that is on Marc's mind also. It's a chilling idea but also kinda awesome.
far-trader
March 27th, 2007, 01:20 AM
Could be, could be. So maybe some kind of suddenly accelerated Heat Death scenario with a mystery as to the who, what, where, when and why. I've heard of Fading Suns of course but never looked at it in any detail though that was the impression I got of it.
alanb
March 27th, 2007, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by far-trader:
There... is... nothing... .
I can't believe Marc was serious about setting a game in such a time. At least not something we'd recognize as Traveller. It has to be a Red Herring or a joke. Or he meant something else. Or I'm just not getting the idea. You've made it sound attractive to me. smile.gif
It's "not something we'd recognize as Traveller" aspect is, I think, the appeal. It's a much more "out there", not so routine "merchants and Emperors and mercenaries, yawn..." kind of thing.
Think about it a bit.
If you wanted to, you could even ship characters from the Classic Era to the setting. Just have them fall into Yaskoydray's TARDIS and they're there. They could even come back again, if you were incredibly generous!
That's just one, rather mundane possibility. You could get much weirder.
There... is... nothing... .
I can't believe Marc was serious about setting a game in such a time. At least not something we'd recognize as Traveller. It has to be a Red Herring or a joke. Or he meant something else. Or I'm just not getting the idea. You've made it sound attractive to me. smile.gif
It's "not something we'd recognize as Traveller" aspect is, I think, the appeal. It's a much more "out there", not so routine "merchants and Emperors and mercenaries, yawn..." kind of thing.
Think about it a bit.
If you wanted to, you could even ship characters from the Classic Era to the setting. Just have them fall into Yaskoydray's TARDIS and they're there. They could even come back again, if you were incredibly generous!
That's just one, rather mundane possibility. You could get much weirder.
far-trader
March 27th, 2007, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by alanb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
There... is... nothing... .
I can't believe Marc was serious about setting a game in such a time. At least not something we'd recognize as Traveller. It has to be a Red Herring or a joke. Or he meant something else. Or I'm just not getting the idea. You've made it sound attractive to me. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]That's cool then smile.gif But as much as I like movies and novels that twist my psyche into a pretzel I'm pretty sure I couldn't pull it off in an rpg, at least not as ref, maybe as player, on a very good day...
...though there was that time I really cut loose reffing a little 1-on-1 in between regular games and actually gave the player some quite vivid dreams bordering on nightmares after my treatment of what started out as a rather routine trip to a mirror shop graemlins/file_23.gif I have my moments when I can paint rather well with words.
I guess I see the possibilities, but they frighten me. In that good way graemlins/file_23.gif I'm not sure I'd be up for such a game but would quite enjoy it if able to pull it off.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by far-trader:
There... is... nothing... .
I can't believe Marc was serious about setting a game in such a time. At least not something we'd recognize as Traveller. It has to be a Red Herring or a joke. Or he meant something else. Or I'm just not getting the idea. You've made it sound attractive to me. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]That's cool then smile.gif But as much as I like movies and novels that twist my psyche into a pretzel I'm pretty sure I couldn't pull it off in an rpg, at least not as ref, maybe as player, on a very good day...
...though there was that time I really cut loose reffing a little 1-on-1 in between regular games and actually gave the player some quite vivid dreams bordering on nightmares after my treatment of what started out as a rather routine trip to a mirror shop graemlins/file_23.gif I have my moments when I can paint rather well with words.
I guess I see the possibilities, but they frighten me. In that good way graemlins/file_23.gif I'm not sure I'd be up for such a game but would quite enjoy it if able to pull it off.
Andrew Boulton
March 27th, 2007, 11:02 AM
I think it was probably just a throwaway line, rather than a serious suggestion.
Read "The Last Three Minutes", by Paul Davies, for a depressing reminder of the ultimate futility of all life...
Read "The Last Three Minutes", by Paul Davies, for a depressing reminder of the ultimate futility of all life...
far-trader
March 27th, 2007, 12:48 PM
I think you're right Andrew. Thanks for another read to hunt down smile.gif
I've been trying to recall the title or author of a short story of the end of it all ala heat death but I can't. I'd hate to give away the ending (which is the most recognizable bit) but basically it's not a type of scenario that lends itself to rpg smile.gif
In it the universe does indeed end with a whimper. A hopeful whimper I suppose, but it left me rather non-plused with the author after a rather good lead-up. Very anti-climatic. At least the way I remember it.
I've been trying to recall the title or author of a short story of the end of it all ala heat death but I can't. I'd hate to give away the ending (which is the most recognizable bit) but basically it's not a type of scenario that lends itself to rpg smile.gif
In it the universe does indeed end with a whimper. A hopeful whimper I suppose, but it left me rather non-plused with the author after a rather good lead-up. Very anti-climatic. At least the way I remember it.
ravells
March 27th, 2007, 01:22 PM
Heat Death of the Universe - player's log
The pizza has arrived and the beer opened.
GM: Right are you ready.
Players: Yeah, go for it.
[four hours silence]
GM: What would you like to play next?
The pizza has arrived and the beer opened.
GM: Right are you ready.
Players: Yeah, go for it.
[four hours silence]
GM: What would you like to play next?
Nick Nova
March 27th, 2007, 02:05 PM
Far-Trader wrote:
And I really don't see any reason to game in such a universe. I mean what would there be to do?! I suppose just keeping warm would be adventure enough in such a setting...
Another milieu that was mentioned in the original T5 draft ruleset was "The Ancient War (Grandfather's conflict with his children)". I would love to see that developed!
At one time (many years ago) I had considered such a setting as the ultimate recourse for some Traveller characters that had become just too powerful. The chance discovery of an ancient site would have sent them on a one-way trip back in time - naked, a la Terminator - into the midst of one of the loosing factions in Grandfather's war. "Who's the tough guy now?" kind of thing, as they are surrounded by angry TL-35 armed warrior Droyne...
The nice thing is that they could do just about anything they wanted without significantly changing history, as long as Grandfather won in the end. Trying to envision a fully functioning TL-35 society was a daunting challenge however - more than my poor little brain could handle at the time. Then our group fell apart and I was spared the effort.
Still, I have been intrigued by that milieu ever since, as the ultimate in High-Tech adventuring.
And I really don't see any reason to game in such a universe. I mean what would there be to do?! I suppose just keeping warm would be adventure enough in such a setting...
Another milieu that was mentioned in the original T5 draft ruleset was "The Ancient War (Grandfather's conflict with his children)". I would love to see that developed!
At one time (many years ago) I had considered such a setting as the ultimate recourse for some Traveller characters that had become just too powerful. The chance discovery of an ancient site would have sent them on a one-way trip back in time - naked, a la Terminator - into the midst of one of the loosing factions in Grandfather's war. "Who's the tough guy now?" kind of thing, as they are surrounded by angry TL-35 armed warrior Droyne...
The nice thing is that they could do just about anything they wanted without significantly changing history, as long as Grandfather won in the end. Trying to envision a fully functioning TL-35 society was a daunting challenge however - more than my poor little brain could handle at the time. Then our group fell apart and I was spared the effort.
Still, I have been intrigued by that milieu ever since, as the ultimate in High-Tech adventuring.
far-trader
March 27th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by far-trader:
I've been trying to recall the title or author of a short story of the end of it all ala heat death but I can't. I'd hate to give away the ending (which is the most recognizable bit) but basically it's not a type of scenario that lends itself to rpg smile.gif
In it the universe does indeed end with a whimper. A hopeful whimper I suppose, but it left me rather non-plused with the author after a rather good lead-up. Very anti-climatic. At least the way I remember it. A public thank-you to Andrew who, thanks to a spooky coinicidence*, knew the story I'm talking about and provided a link which I'll share here. A pretty good read even if the ending did leave me a bit flat.
The Last Question (http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html)
* For some reason I asked him and he'd heard a radio adaptation just a couple weeks ago. Again the universe is not so much snickering behind my back but laughing right in my face graemlins/file_22.gif
I've been trying to recall the title or author of a short story of the end of it all ala heat death but I can't. I'd hate to give away the ending (which is the most recognizable bit) but basically it's not a type of scenario that lends itself to rpg smile.gif
In it the universe does indeed end with a whimper. A hopeful whimper I suppose, but it left me rather non-plused with the author after a rather good lead-up. Very anti-climatic. At least the way I remember it. A public thank-you to Andrew who, thanks to a spooky coinicidence*, knew the story I'm talking about and provided a link which I'll share here. A pretty good read even if the ending did leave me a bit flat.
The Last Question (http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html)
* For some reason I asked him and he'd heard a radio adaptation just a couple weeks ago. Again the universe is not so much snickering behind my back but laughing right in my face graemlins/file_22.gif
Sifu Blackirish
March 27th, 2007, 09:14 PM
Haven't read the story yet but i will...
and relation to OlaF Stepledon's Star Maker?
and relation to OlaF Stepledon's Star Maker?
kafka47
March 28th, 2007, 06:49 AM
Nick, I once wrote a supplement dealing with that very topic. The manuscript lies on my fried hard drive** (computer had a wee fire that severed the connections points of the hard drive with the computer and possibly smoke damage) and also in the hands of Swordy. Essentially, the postulate and directive coming from Marc was imagine the world of Lensmen for humans and the gods themselves for the Ancients.
Heat Death, is the standard ending to all good Science Fiction, as it points to the ultimate point of it all. However, it does not stop adventuring, everything from Doctor Who to a certain restaurant that I would love to frequent makes ample room for adventuring at the end of time.
A truly pan galactic civilization with baddies coming baddies coming out of all Time & Space and more important the spaces between this reality and others seems to be excellent backdrop for Traveller. Yes, we might think we know the end of the story but perhaps it is the sign of the new beginning...
**So, if anyone knows of a data recovery firm with clear results and wants to shell out the money, I would be happy to get back to working on it. Right now it is estimated such an operation would cost about $500 with no guarantee of success. I would pay no more than $50 and wish 95% success.
Heat Death, is the standard ending to all good Science Fiction, as it points to the ultimate point of it all. However, it does not stop adventuring, everything from Doctor Who to a certain restaurant that I would love to frequent makes ample room for adventuring at the end of time.
A truly pan galactic civilization with baddies coming baddies coming out of all Time & Space and more important the spaces between this reality and others seems to be excellent backdrop for Traveller. Yes, we might think we know the end of the story but perhaps it is the sign of the new beginning...
**So, if anyone knows of a data recovery firm with clear results and wants to shell out the money, I would be happy to get back to working on it. Right now it is estimated such an operation would cost about $500 with no guarantee of success. I would pay no more than $50 and wish 95% success.
Nick Nova
March 28th, 2007, 02:34 PM
kafka47 wrote:
Nick, I once wrote a supplement dealing with that very topic. The manuscript lies on my fried hard drive** (computer had a wee fire that severed the connections points of the hard drive with the computer and possibly smoke damage) and also in the hands of Swordy. Essentially, the postulate and directive coming from Marc was imagine the world of Lensmen for humans and the gods themselves for the Ancients. Kafka, you're breaking my heart! What a loss! :(
Wait, let me check my wallet... um... well... huh, nothing in there but lint. Sorry, dosen't look like I can help much with the hard drive.
If there is anything else I could do to help, encourage, or support you on that project, let me lnow. I'm ashamed to admit that I've never read the Lensman series, so it looks like I will have to correct that error in the near future. Thanks for the tip.
BTW, I hear that the steak is really good at that restaurant you mentioned. smile.gif
Nick, I once wrote a supplement dealing with that very topic. The manuscript lies on my fried hard drive** (computer had a wee fire that severed the connections points of the hard drive with the computer and possibly smoke damage) and also in the hands of Swordy. Essentially, the postulate and directive coming from Marc was imagine the world of Lensmen for humans and the gods themselves for the Ancients. Kafka, you're breaking my heart! What a loss! :(
Wait, let me check my wallet... um... well... huh, nothing in there but lint. Sorry, dosen't look like I can help much with the hard drive.
If there is anything else I could do to help, encourage, or support you on that project, let me lnow. I'm ashamed to admit that I've never read the Lensman series, so it looks like I will have to correct that error in the near future. Thanks for the tip.
BTW, I hear that the steak is really good at that restaurant you mentioned. smile.gif
far-trader
March 28th, 2007, 03:24 PM
EDITED: Goofed on the timeline a bit, added a decimal, now fixed. No big change really.
You all aren't getting it. We are talking about a time so far removed as to be unimaginable. Not in the sense that we can't fantasize about (as in not sci-fi but high fantasy) but in the sense that we are too limited in our imagination to make reasonable predictions (as in sci-fi).
Look at it this way. Rescale the whole of human history to 1 minute. I'm not wanting to argue science v religion or anything but let's take our minute to be from the first fossil modern human ancestor as 1 million years ago. So 1 million years is 1 minute. OK?
On this scale the total of recorded modern history, general accepted as 10 thousand years, is less than 1 second. Keep that in mind and how far we have come in 6/10ths of a second because now we are going into the future.
Speeding ahead to the golden age of Traveller is only a little over 5 thousand years in the future. Just 3/10ths of a second on our scale. Not too hard to imagine a lot of progress but we'll still be human and not much changed from what we are today. Our total recorded history is now about 1 second. Hold on, we're going farther this time. All the way to the universe's twilight years.
This is the time when no more stars are born and the ones still around are very old and slowly dying. It's about 100 trillion years from now, or almost 2 hundred years on our compressed scale. Do you get that? TWO HUNDRED YEARS against 1 MINUTE for our total development from the first primitive human to today. Can you honestly say we'll be anything even remotely understandable to our current selves?
But that's not even the actual heat death of the universe yet, that is just setting the stage. The door to the end has just opened. The actual end, the actual heat death of the universe, is even more unimaginiably removed from that.
There is no way you'll convince me we mere humans can properly imagine our future a hundred thousand years from now (if we should survive so long) let alone a hundred trillion years in the future. It would be better labeled fantasy.
The idea of making a science fiction game setting out of the heat death of the universe is ludicrous. Space 1889 looks positively historically factual by comparison smile.gif
You all aren't getting it. We are talking about a time so far removed as to be unimaginable. Not in the sense that we can't fantasize about (as in not sci-fi but high fantasy) but in the sense that we are too limited in our imagination to make reasonable predictions (as in sci-fi).
Look at it this way. Rescale the whole of human history to 1 minute. I'm not wanting to argue science v religion or anything but let's take our minute to be from the first fossil modern human ancestor as 1 million years ago. So 1 million years is 1 minute. OK?
On this scale the total of recorded modern history, general accepted as 10 thousand years, is less than 1 second. Keep that in mind and how far we have come in 6/10ths of a second because now we are going into the future.
Speeding ahead to the golden age of Traveller is only a little over 5 thousand years in the future. Just 3/10ths of a second on our scale. Not too hard to imagine a lot of progress but we'll still be human and not much changed from what we are today. Our total recorded history is now about 1 second. Hold on, we're going farther this time. All the way to the universe's twilight years.
This is the time when no more stars are born and the ones still around are very old and slowly dying. It's about 100 trillion years from now, or almost 2 hundred years on our compressed scale. Do you get that? TWO HUNDRED YEARS against 1 MINUTE for our total development from the first primitive human to today. Can you honestly say we'll be anything even remotely understandable to our current selves?
But that's not even the actual heat death of the universe yet, that is just setting the stage. The door to the end has just opened. The actual end, the actual heat death of the universe, is even more unimaginiably removed from that.
There is no way you'll convince me we mere humans can properly imagine our future a hundred thousand years from now (if we should survive so long) let alone a hundred trillion years in the future. It would be better labeled fantasy.
The idea of making a science fiction game setting out of the heat death of the universe is ludicrous. Space 1889 looks positively historically factual by comparison smile.gif
Andrew Boulton
March 28th, 2007, 03:56 PM
It's like trying to comprehend the vastness of the known universe - we're just not used to dealing with numbers that big, and many people simply can't without their ears bleeding.
far-trader
March 28th, 2007, 04:34 PM
Had to edit my post above. The universe's old age is only a hundred trillion years not a quadrillion years away ;)
Also, when I said all, as in you all don't get it, that was hyperbole, I'm sure some of you do get it, certainly Andrew does.
The analogy he makes is good. I can wrap my head around the size of the galaxy and the distances involved, I think, but contemplating the distances between galaxies caussss...
brain rebooting, please standby
...what was I saying? It happened again didn't it :rolleyes:
Also, when I said all, as in you all don't get it, that was hyperbole, I'm sure some of you do get it, certainly Andrew does.
The analogy he makes is good. I can wrap my head around the size of the galaxy and the distances involved, I think, but contemplating the distances between galaxies caussss...
brain rebooting, please standby
...what was I saying? It happened again didn't it :rolleyes:
kafka47
March 28th, 2007, 08:06 PM
However, just like the milieu at the end of the scale (Antiquity), there would be lots of room for manueuver. If you look at the span of Doctor Who (which was also a pretty good RPG), you get the idea of what we are talking about.
Just because we move forward thousand or billions of years the descendants of the ape like creatures will have been swept aside into cosmic dust but what remains is what do we become?
Traveller postulates a galactic civilization after the ruins of several shattered dreams. If mankind (around which Traveller is centred) pulls itself off the rocks and into the universe as a whole either through some sort of metabeing (ie Grandfather route) or developing the kiloparsec drive (ie GT variant), the galactic civilization will be in short order a reality.
Now, naturally we know that we will not be alone in this enterprise and that is where the mega plot or mega-conspiracy kicks in...perhaps, that is where GT & MT diverge. The real assassins of Dulinor were not only time agents but agents of free time and the paradox faction.
Just because we move forward thousand or billions of years the descendants of the ape like creatures will have been swept aside into cosmic dust but what remains is what do we become?
Traveller postulates a galactic civilization after the ruins of several shattered dreams. If mankind (around which Traveller is centred) pulls itself off the rocks and into the universe as a whole either through some sort of metabeing (ie Grandfather route) or developing the kiloparsec drive (ie GT variant), the galactic civilization will be in short order a reality.
Now, naturally we know that we will not be alone in this enterprise and that is where the mega plot or mega-conspiracy kicks in...perhaps, that is where GT & MT diverge. The real assassins of Dulinor were not only time agents but agents of free time and the paradox faction.
Rhialto the Marvelous
March 28th, 2007, 09:33 PM
The other day I visited the travellermap.com site for the first time in a long time. I had completely forgotten just how utterly, vanishingly TINY the OTU's charted space is in the scheme of things.
I mean, I knew it. But if you see it represented on a map... wow.
So, on top of the magnitude of time there's the magnitude of space.
I'm wondering... did a scifi RPG ever try to address that? The full extent of the vastness of space and time?
Somebody upthread mentioned Stapledon--that's what we're talking here. A Starmaker RPG.
Madness, of course. But ever so cool.
I mean, I knew it. But if you see it represented on a map... wow.
So, on top of the magnitude of time there's the magnitude of space.
I'm wondering... did a scifi RPG ever try to address that? The full extent of the vastness of space and time?
Somebody upthread mentioned Stapledon--that's what we're talking here. A Starmaker RPG.
Madness, of course. But ever so cool.
kafka47
March 28th, 2007, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Rhialto the Marvelous:
T
I'm wondering... did a scifi RPG ever try to address that? The full extent of the vastness of space and time?
Somebody upthread mentioned Stapledon--that's what we're talking here. A Starmaker RPG.
Madness, of course. But ever so cool. http://www.drosi.de/bilder/dr_doctor_who.jpg
And because the Keiths had a big role in the creation of the game...it is remarkably Traveller like.
T
I'm wondering... did a scifi RPG ever try to address that? The full extent of the vastness of space and time?
Somebody upthread mentioned Stapledon--that's what we're talking here. A Starmaker RPG.
Madness, of course. But ever so cool. http://www.drosi.de/bilder/dr_doctor_who.jpg
And because the Keiths had a big role in the creation of the game...it is remarkably Traveller like.
alanb
March 28th, 2007, 11:15 PM
At last! Someone who understands!
Obviously, you don't get to the Heat Death of the Universe the long way around. It's one of the frontiers of time and space the likes of Yaskoydray explore.
And, of course, Yaskoydray uses small groups of agents...
Obviously, you don't get to the Heat Death of the Universe the long way around. It's one of the frontiers of time and space the likes of Yaskoydray explore.
And, of course, Yaskoydray uses small groups of agents...
far-trader
March 29th, 2007, 12:14 AM
In other words it takes time travel :rolleyes:
In my opinion one of the biggest, if not the absolute biggest fantasy item labeled sci-fi. Just not my idea of fun at all.
Don't get me wrong, I like a good time yarn, just as much as a story about hobbits and wizards and a magic ring, but I put them both in the same genre.
I find most time travel stories overly contrived and generally the time travel isn't even needed to tell the story.
Oh there's ways to get to the future without invoking time travel magic or needing to explain why people are still people after a billion years, those don't bother me. And those methods still allow ideas as thought provoking as other sci-fi and even time travel.
Meh, I just find time travel lame. Still enjoy Dr. Who mind you, but it's never been because of the time travel, it's been because of the other worlds. Even if they are future or past Earth they are still really other worlds.
In my opinion one of the biggest, if not the absolute biggest fantasy item labeled sci-fi. Just not my idea of fun at all.
Don't get me wrong, I like a good time yarn, just as much as a story about hobbits and wizards and a magic ring, but I put them both in the same genre.
I find most time travel stories overly contrived and generally the time travel isn't even needed to tell the story.
Oh there's ways to get to the future without invoking time travel magic or needing to explain why people are still people after a billion years, those don't bother me. And those methods still allow ideas as thought provoking as other sci-fi and even time travel.
Meh, I just find time travel lame. Still enjoy Dr. Who mind you, but it's never been because of the time travel, it's been because of the other worlds. Even if they are future or past Earth they are still really other worlds.
far-trader
March 29th, 2007, 12:30 AM
More to the point, and I get that getting to the heat death age is not a problem, the problem with playing anything resembling humans in that age is what I find ludicrous.
Even if we magically or otherwise transport humans to that frontier what is there for them to do? You think space is unimaginably big now with stars and planets mere parsecs apart? Try it when things have dispersed to the point where it's mostly small cold rocks seperated by gulfs of (I don't know, just a WAG...) hundreds of parsecs. And the only sources of energy left are blackholes, white dwarfs, and neutron stars iirc, and these are even further apart. Even Antimatter powered J36 isn't going to cut it to get around.
So I ask you? How does one play Traveller at the threashold of the heat death of the universe, let alone well into the approaching darkness?
Even if we magically or otherwise transport humans to that frontier what is there for them to do? You think space is unimaginably big now with stars and planets mere parsecs apart? Try it when things have dispersed to the point where it's mostly small cold rocks seperated by gulfs of (I don't know, just a WAG...) hundreds of parsecs. And the only sources of energy left are blackholes, white dwarfs, and neutron stars iirc, and these are even further apart. Even Antimatter powered J36 isn't going to cut it to get around.
So I ask you? How does one play Traveller at the threashold of the heat death of the universe, let alone well into the approaching darkness?
kafka47
March 29th, 2007, 07:52 AM
Military types there to convey refugees from this universe safely into the next.
Scouts going out to check the integrity of the wormholes and plot the death of stars
Merchants selling lucrative low berth "seats" between this world and the next universe.
The end of it all might otherwise open up possibilities for new beginnings.
The point of the Doctor Who RPG would be: it might be Traveller but just not Traveller as we know it. Keep in mind, I did suggest the suggest the kiloparsec drive from SJG which no doubt would be superceeded by the Megaparsec then the Tetraparsec drive systems.
So one needs not to have time travel as the central component, in one of the Who stories it was revealed that we born in the 30th century and with being what 900+, we always assume the year 2007 to be default present. Even Traveller is more utopian and bold by postulating a default present of the 57th century. Role playing in a very distant future time involves a lot of handwaves and indeed borders on fantasy but even the Hard SF borders on fantasy to lay person.
Time is relative but so is space. Sure, we might have lots of interesting creatures between the Megaparsecs but who cares we have a universe to save. That is where it would suddenly not be Traveller for me.
BTW, I did try the steak at Milliways, I would rather recommend the pork. tongue.gif ;)
Scouts going out to check the integrity of the wormholes and plot the death of stars
Merchants selling lucrative low berth "seats" between this world and the next universe.
The end of it all might otherwise open up possibilities for new beginnings.
The point of the Doctor Who RPG would be: it might be Traveller but just not Traveller as we know it. Keep in mind, I did suggest the suggest the kiloparsec drive from SJG which no doubt would be superceeded by the Megaparsec then the Tetraparsec drive systems.
So one needs not to have time travel as the central component, in one of the Who stories it was revealed that we born in the 30th century and with being what 900+, we always assume the year 2007 to be default present. Even Traveller is more utopian and bold by postulating a default present of the 57th century. Role playing in a very distant future time involves a lot of handwaves and indeed borders on fantasy but even the Hard SF borders on fantasy to lay person.
Time is relative but so is space. Sure, we might have lots of interesting creatures between the Megaparsecs but who cares we have a universe to save. That is where it would suddenly not be Traveller for me.
BTW, I did try the steak at Milliways, I would rather recommend the pork. tongue.gif ;)
Hemdian
March 29th, 2007, 10:01 AM
If we have a "heat death" or "big freeze" (as opposed to "big crunch") end of the universe then it wont be a sudden thing.
At the moment stars and habitable worlds are being formed all the time, sentiant races are evolving, civilisations are rising and falling and rising again. As the universe gets older the rate of renewal will decline until the total number of civilisations in the universe starts to slowly decrease. Eventually there will be no new planets, no new races, and the old races will have gone into extinction one by one (for a different reason in each case). Eventually there will be no one left. This empty barran universe will continue on for some time more before, atlast, the last stars burn out and fade and fade and fade ...
Regards PLST
At the moment stars and habitable worlds are being formed all the time, sentiant races are evolving, civilisations are rising and falling and rising again. As the universe gets older the rate of renewal will decline until the total number of civilisations in the universe starts to slowly decrease. Eventually there will be no new planets, no new races, and the old races will have gone into extinction one by one (for a different reason in each case). Eventually there will be no one left. This empty barran universe will continue on for some time more before, atlast, the last stars burn out and fade and fade and fade ...
Regards PLST
Andrew Boulton
March 29th, 2007, 10:57 AM
http://www.earthstar.co.uk/vortex.htm
Also a nice animation here: http://iacs5.ucsd.edu/~pbang/tpv.swf
Also a nice animation here: http://iacs5.ucsd.edu/~pbang/tpv.swf
kafka47
March 29th, 2007, 11:28 AM
I agree and disagree. We may say the universe does not care but it is for us to care. Buzz Aldrin, I believe once summed up the late 20th century as the dialogue between the image of the Earth and that of the Hydrogen bomb.
http://www.bnsc.gov.uk/assets/channels/education/ae/earth_splash.jpg
and
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CFJ/2412~Hydrogen-Bomb-Posters.jpg
No one may even care but it is our higher purpose to change that, otherwise, we let nilism & entropy rule rather rebirth & creation. For as much as the universe is about death there is an element of constant birth and it is that sense of wonder that brings me again & again to Science Fiction.
Therefore, Heat Death (until Marc clarifies it) should not be viewed as the beginning of the end but the end of a new becoming.
http://www.bnsc.gov.uk/assets/channels/education/ae/earth_splash.jpg
and
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/CFJ/2412~Hydrogen-Bomb-Posters.jpg
No one may even care but it is our higher purpose to change that, otherwise, we let nilism & entropy rule rather rebirth & creation. For as much as the universe is about death there is an element of constant birth and it is that sense of wonder that brings me again & again to Science Fiction.
Therefore, Heat Death (until Marc clarifies it) should not be viewed as the beginning of the end but the end of a new becoming.
Andrew Boulton
March 29th, 2007, 01:34 PM
I'll use any excuse to point people at this:
https://planetary.org/bluedot_poster.html
It should be required reading for everyone.
I have the poster on the wall over my computer.
https://planetary.org/bluedot_poster.html
It should be required reading for everyone.
I have the poster on the wall over my computer.
kafka47
March 29th, 2007, 05:58 PM
Yes, I agree with you but we are more than just star stuff if we aspire to be so. That for me is the goal and aim in life, however humbled I am in front of the majesty of the universe. There are the Cold Equations but also there is also Outward Urge that drives us ever farther as a species. The Universe may not care but we are our keepers.
Andrew Boulton
May 3rd, 2007, 03:12 PM
New theory on The End:
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070501_scietues_futureuniverse.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/070501_scietues_futureuniverse.html
far-trader
May 3rd, 2007, 04:02 PM
Matter without energy. Interesting. Sounds like a candidate for dark matter. But that would mean...
Don't ya just love how new answers always mean more questions smile.gif
Don't ya just love how new answers always mean more questions smile.gif
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