Elliot
May 21st, 2002, 12:32 PM
Anyone (Neil!) got any ideas on the Muodray plot in Gurps Behind The Claw?
MJD
May 21st, 2002, 05:50 PM
Yes, thanks. I have some ideas. Was there something you wanted to know?
phydaux
May 21st, 2002, 07:35 PM
Muodray plot? that's news to me. What page is it on?
And MJD, we'll take anything you'd care to tell us (grin).
And MJD, we'll take anything you'd care to tell us (grin).
MJD
May 22nd, 2002, 06:19 AM
It's in the Candory/Andor writeup, I seem to remember. There is this new Droyne called Muodray. Some other hints are scattered throughout the book. Look over the worlds of the region around Andor.
phydaux
May 23rd, 2002, 12:22 AM
Hmm. I think I remember reading something like that. One of those "Here's an interesting detail a sly GM can use" things G:T BTC was full of.
You know, out of all the little tidbits in that book, the thing that stands out most in my mind is Astroburgers.
And I get more comments about my Brubeck's t-shirt than all my other logo-Ts combined.
Honestly, no one cares who Linux is or what the little penguin is all about. But I put that one on and all I ever hear is "Oh, you got that at a bar in Regina? When were you in Canada? I'm from Regina and I don't know that bar. What street is it on?"
You know, out of all the little tidbits in that book, the thing that stands out most in my mind is Astroburgers.
And I get more comments about my Brubeck's t-shirt than all my other logo-Ts combined.
Honestly, no one cares who Linux is or what the little penguin is all about. But I put that one on and all I ever hear is "Oh, you got that at a bar in Regina? When were you in Canada? I'm from Regina and I don't know that bar. What street is it on?"
MJD
May 23rd, 2002, 02:01 AM
Yup; of all the good things we did, Astrobrugers is what caught the popular imagination. (sigh).
phydaux
May 23rd, 2002, 10:07 AM
Now don't get too down on youself. It's still the best supplement in the line, and one of the best on the Spinward Marches ever.
If T20 is half as good, you've got yourself a sure hit - Origin award, the whole nine yards.
If T20 is half as good, you've got yourself a sure hit - Origin award, the whole nine yards.
al duc
May 24th, 2002, 02:34 AM
I also admit not being able to connect all the dots about Muodray. Is he working with or against Grandfather? His name ("little father") hints that he could be one of Grandfather's children (well, at least it dos to me). Not having read the Classic Traveller material, perhaps some vital bit of information is elluding me.
The Chirpers population falling because Muodray is casting them as Droyne seems likely, but why? And where did all the Droyne go in 1118 when they suddenly disappear?
And does that have anything to do with the minor race of nearby 876-574 being terified by the return of "the old one"? Those last words are a dead giveaway, but what would be the point in terrorizing a bunch of caveman?
Any info would be much appreciated and very useful in my upcoming games.
Alain D.
The Chirpers population falling because Muodray is casting them as Droyne seems likely, but why? And where did all the Droyne go in 1118 when they suddenly disappear?
And does that have anything to do with the minor race of nearby 876-574 being terified by the return of "the old one"? Those last words are a dead giveaway, but what would be the point in terrorizing a bunch of caveman?
Any info would be much appreciated and very useful in my upcoming games.
Alain D.
MJD
May 24th, 2002, 04:20 AM
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
hunter
May 24th, 2002, 04:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter
Anthony
May 25th, 2002, 03:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What, new ancients? Why's that a risk? If you actually look at the timeline, the Ancients didn't really increase their tech level all that fast, they were just immortal.
Assuming that Andor and Candory acquire a talented new leader, and proceed to have a combined industrial revolution and population boom, with a growth rate of 10% per annum (which is ridiculously fast by any standards), they'll be a power on a par with Mora or Trin by about 1200, at about which point growth is going to hit a wall, as both population and tech are as high as they can _easily_ go.
That's not insignificant, but it's still definately a problem for later...
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What, new ancients? Why's that a risk? If you actually look at the timeline, the Ancients didn't really increase their tech level all that fast, they were just immortal.
Assuming that Andor and Candory acquire a talented new leader, and proceed to have a combined industrial revolution and population boom, with a growth rate of 10% per annum (which is ridiculously fast by any standards), they'll be a power on a par with Mora or Trin by about 1200, at about which point growth is going to hit a wall, as both population and tech are as high as they can _easily_ go.
That's not insignificant, but it's still definately a problem for later...
hunter
May 25th, 2002, 03:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anthony:
What, new ancients? Why's that a risk? If you actually look at the timeline, the Ancients didn't really increase their tech level all that fast, they were just immortal.
Assuming that Andor and Candory acquire a talented new leader, and proceed to have a combined industrial revolution and population boom, with a growth rate of 10% per annum (which is ridiculously fast by any standards), they'll be a power on a par with Mora or Trin by about 1200, at about which point growth is going to hit a wall, as both population and tech are as high as they can _easily_ go.
That's not insignificant, but it's still definately a problem for later...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was thinking more along the lines of The Grandfather, Part II... http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif
Hunter
What, new ancients? Why's that a risk? If you actually look at the timeline, the Ancients didn't really increase their tech level all that fast, they were just immortal.
Assuming that Andor and Candory acquire a talented new leader, and proceed to have a combined industrial revolution and population boom, with a growth rate of 10% per annum (which is ridiculously fast by any standards), they'll be a power on a par with Mora or Trin by about 1200, at about which point growth is going to hit a wall, as both population and tech are as high as they can _easily_ go.
That's not insignificant, but it's still definately a problem for later...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was thinking more along the lines of The Grandfather, Part II... http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif
Hunter
Anthony
May 25th, 2002, 05:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunter:
I was thinking more along the lines of The Grandfather, Part II... http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif
Hunter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.
I was thinking more along the lines of The Grandfather, Part II... http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif
Hunter
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.
hunter
May 25th, 2002, 05:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anthony:
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If Muodray is something along the lines of another Grandfather you are talking about some serious power on just an individual level. If a potential enemy with the technology to render entire worlds into planetoid belts, move worlds, and the ability to create pocket universes as needed is nothing to worry about well...
Also, if Muodray is such, do you think Grandfather is going to ignore the appearance of Muodray for long? Look what he did to get rid of his 'children' before. If Muodray is anywhere near as powerful as Grandfather, it could be even worse. Of course to worry about this you have to subscribe to the Grandfather checks in on things every once in a while line.
Personally I like the idea http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif Beats Virus (IMO) and at least has canon on its side. So the Droyne spawn someone like Grandfather every 500,000 years of so. Makes for interesting times!
Hunter
[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 25 May 2002).]
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If Muodray is something along the lines of another Grandfather you are talking about some serious power on just an individual level. If a potential enemy with the technology to render entire worlds into planetoid belts, move worlds, and the ability to create pocket universes as needed is nothing to worry about well...
Also, if Muodray is such, do you think Grandfather is going to ignore the appearance of Muodray for long? Look what he did to get rid of his 'children' before. If Muodray is anywhere near as powerful as Grandfather, it could be even worse. Of course to worry about this you have to subscribe to the Grandfather checks in on things every once in a while line.
Personally I like the idea http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif Beats Virus (IMO) and at least has canon on its side. So the Droyne spawn someone like Grandfather every 500,000 years of so. Makes for interesting times!
Hunter
[This message has been edited by hunter (edited 25 May 2002).]
Tobias
May 25th, 2002, 08:06 AM
[/b][/QUOTE]
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.[/QB][/QUOTE]
The Ancients were probably more like TL 40. Several of the Ancient feats of technology are described as TL 25-35 or higher.
Which is to, say, waaaay off the scale.
Tobias
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.[/QB][/QUOTE]
The Ancients were probably more like TL 40. Several of the Ancient feats of technology are described as TL 25-35 or higher.
Which is to, say, waaaay off the scale.
Tobias
Anthony
May 25th, 2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
If Muodray is something along the lines of another Grandfather you are talking about some serious power on just an individual level. If a potential enemy with the technology to render entire worlds into planetoid belts, move worlds, and the ability to create pocket universes as needed is nothing to worry about well...[/QB]Remember, Grandfather didn't blow up planets based on personal power, he blew up planets due to access to advanced technology. As I previously mentioned, this technology apparently took thouosands of years to develop. Therefore, Muoydray is a long-term threat, but only on a very long term (scale of centuries at least).
If Muoydray has actual reserves of Ancient tech, he could be a problem sooner, but unless his current reserves are very impressive, it's going to take at least a century to build up Andor and Candory to the level where his reserves can be significantly expanded.
If Muodray is something along the lines of another Grandfather you are talking about some serious power on just an individual level. If a potential enemy with the technology to render entire worlds into planetoid belts, move worlds, and the ability to create pocket universes as needed is nothing to worry about well...[/QB]Remember, Grandfather didn't blow up planets based on personal power, he blew up planets due to access to advanced technology. As I previously mentioned, this technology apparently took thouosands of years to develop. Therefore, Muoydray is a long-term threat, but only on a very long term (scale of centuries at least).
If Muoydray has actual reserves of Ancient tech, he could be a problem sooner, but unless his current reserves are very impressive, it's going to take at least a century to build up Andor and Candory to the level where his reserves can be significantly expanded.
hunter
May 25th, 2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
If Muodray is something along the lines of another Grandfather you are talking about some serious power on just an individual level. If a potential enemy with the technology to render entire worlds into planetoid belts, move worlds, and the ability to create pocket universes as needed is nothing to worry about well...Remember, Grandfather didn't blow up planets based on personal power, he blew up planets due to access to advanced technology. As I previously mentioned, this technology apparently took thouosands of years to develop. Therefore, Muoydray is a long-term threat, but only on a very long term (scale of centuries at least).
If Muoydray has actual reserves of Ancient tech, he could be a problem sooner, but unless his current reserves are very impressive, it's going to take at least a century to build up Andor and Candory to the level where his reserves can be significantly expanded.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]This is true, but Grandfather was also an incredibly powerful psionicist (IIRC). Also was his ability to pinch off pocket universes based on technology or psionics?
Muodray might also have the ability to utilize any goodies from the Ancients era that may have been left over/discovered/stolen, etc., without much trouble.
A few centuries in the scheme of things isn't that much. I think the potential for a resurgent Ancients type Droyne literally in the Imperium's playground is something that would raise more than a few red flags.
Hunter
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
If Muodray is something along the lines of another Grandfather you are talking about some serious power on just an individual level. If a potential enemy with the technology to render entire worlds into planetoid belts, move worlds, and the ability to create pocket universes as needed is nothing to worry about well...Remember, Grandfather didn't blow up planets based on personal power, he blew up planets due to access to advanced technology. As I previously mentioned, this technology apparently took thouosands of years to develop. Therefore, Muoydray is a long-term threat, but only on a very long term (scale of centuries at least).
If Muoydray has actual reserves of Ancient tech, he could be a problem sooner, but unless his current reserves are very impressive, it's going to take at least a century to build up Andor and Candory to the level where his reserves can be significantly expanded.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]This is true, but Grandfather was also an incredibly powerful psionicist (IIRC). Also was his ability to pinch off pocket universes based on technology or psionics?
Muodray might also have the ability to utilize any goodies from the Ancients era that may have been left over/discovered/stolen, etc., without much trouble.
A few centuries in the scheme of things isn't that much. I think the potential for a resurgent Ancients type Droyne literally in the Imperium's playground is something that would raise more than a few red flags.
Hunter
Anthony
May 26th, 2002, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by hunter:
A few centuries in the scheme of things isn't that much. I think the potential for a resurgent Ancients type Droyne literally in the Imperium's playground is something that would raise more than a few red flags.[/QB]Sure, I agree that it's a potential problem, and for people who think on that sort of timeframe (which the Imperium might do, and the Zhodani almost certainly do) there would be a reaction. It is not, however, something to freak out about on the short term.
A few centuries in the scheme of things isn't that much. I think the potential for a resurgent Ancients type Droyne literally in the Imperium's playground is something that would raise more than a few red flags.[/QB]Sure, I agree that it's a potential problem, and for people who think on that sort of timeframe (which the Imperium might do, and the Zhodani almost certainly do) there would be a reaction. It is not, however, something to freak out about on the short term.
Elliot
May 26th, 2002, 08:13 AM
Lots of talk seems to be made about the Five Sister's Droyne as a military presence - I don't see that as the point about Muodray (although I maybe wrong).
Things to note:
In canon Traveller, people have not been too kind to the rights of Chirpers - viz: Research Station Gamma (sorry, banging on about that again!). An upsurge in fully caste Droyne on previous Chirper worlds, however, presents a new problem for persecuting rednecks !
A TL15 Droyne world exists only 1 sector away from the Five Sisters (Autwary/Binary/Trojan Reaches). It has a naval base (maybe Imperial, but doubtful given the location)
The Droyne have been seen as relics of a by-gone age, but what if they have a renaissance - how would that effect the Spinward Marches (imagine if intelligent psionic ants organised with a goal in mind). The Droyne don't need super weapons (which they potentially have) to achieve goals that humans would find impossible. They do need ambition and a Leader to provide them with direction.
(A rant, I know, but just free associating!)
Things to note:
In canon Traveller, people have not been too kind to the rights of Chirpers - viz: Research Station Gamma (sorry, banging on about that again!). An upsurge in fully caste Droyne on previous Chirper worlds, however, presents a new problem for persecuting rednecks !
A TL15 Droyne world exists only 1 sector away from the Five Sisters (Autwary/Binary/Trojan Reaches). It has a naval base (maybe Imperial, but doubtful given the location)
The Droyne have been seen as relics of a by-gone age, but what if they have a renaissance - how would that effect the Spinward Marches (imagine if intelligent psionic ants organised with a goal in mind). The Droyne don't need super weapons (which they potentially have) to achieve goals that humans would find impossible. They do need ambition and a Leader to provide them with direction.
(A rant, I know, but just free associating!)
Doctor Rob
May 27th, 2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MJD:
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter</font>[/QUOTE]Hunter - Could you let me know the web address for this message board.
Cheers,
Rob
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MJD:
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter</font>[/QUOTE]Hunter - Could you let me know the web address for this message board.
Cheers,
Rob
AndreaV
May 27th, 2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
I was thinking more along the lines of The Grandfather, Part II... http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif
Hunter
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.</font>[/QUOTE]Uhmm, Final War tech was at least 25 (Adv 12 Secret of the Ancients gives this as the minimum level required to use pocket universes), quite possibly 35+ (the minimum level required to create new pocket universes) since Grandfather did create his pocket universe.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
I was thinking more along the lines of The Grandfather, Part II... http://www.farfuture.net/ixs/wink.gif
Hunter
Let's see. Grandfather appeared in -350,000. Final war in -300,000. Ok, the Ancients reached a TL in the 20s, from a TL of about 6, in 50,000 years. At the current rate of improvement, humanity will hit final war levels (about TL 20) in another 2,000 years.
While the Ancients represented a rather large technological leap for the Droyne, by human standards they really weren't anything exceptional.</font>[/QUOTE]Uhmm, Final War tech was at least 25 (Adv 12 Secret of the Ancients gives this as the minimum level required to use pocket universes), quite possibly 35+ (the minimum level required to create new pocket universes) since Grandfather did create his pocket universe.
AndreaV
May 27th, 2002, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
This is true, but Grandfather was also an incredibly powerful psionicist (IIRC). Also was his ability to pinch off pocket universes based on technology or psionics?
Muodray might also have the ability to utilize any goodies from the Ancients era that may have been left over/discovered/stolen, etc., without much trouble.
A few centuries in the scheme of things isn't that much. I think the potential for a resurgent Ancients type Droyne literally in the Imperium's playground is something that would raise more than a few red flags.
Hunter[/QB]Adv 12 seems to strongly imply that the manipulation of pocket universes is at least partly technological (access requires TL25, creation TL35). However, it also appears that most Ancient technology was also heavily dependent on psionics, so it probably requires both.
This is true, but Grandfather was also an incredibly powerful psionicist (IIRC). Also was his ability to pinch off pocket universes based on technology or psionics?
Muodray might also have the ability to utilize any goodies from the Ancients era that may have been left over/discovered/stolen, etc., without much trouble.
A few centuries in the scheme of things isn't that much. I think the potential for a resurgent Ancients type Droyne literally in the Imperium's playground is something that would raise more than a few red flags.
Hunter[/QB]Adv 12 seems to strongly imply that the manipulation of pocket universes is at least partly technological (access requires TL25, creation TL35). However, it also appears that most Ancient technology was also heavily dependent on psionics, so it probably requires both.
Anthony
May 27th, 2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Andrewmv:
Uhmm, Final War tech was at least 25 (Adv 12 Secret of the Ancients gives this as the minimum level required to use pocket universes), quite possibly 35+ (the minimum level required to create new pocket universes) since Grandfather did create his pocket universe.[/QB]Depends on when in the Final War, there's presumably some reason for the black globe caches, but 5,000 years is still plenty of time. Given that the Ancients were around for 50,000 years, there's no reason to assume the Ancients advanced especially fast.
Uhmm, Final War tech was at least 25 (Adv 12 Secret of the Ancients gives this as the minimum level required to use pocket universes), quite possibly 35+ (the minimum level required to create new pocket universes) since Grandfather did create his pocket universe.[/QB]Depends on when in the Final War, there's presumably some reason for the black globe caches, but 5,000 years is still plenty of time. Given that the Ancients were around for 50,000 years, there's no reason to assume the Ancients advanced especially fast.
DaveShayne
May 27th, 2002, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Doctor Rob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MJD:
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter</font>[/QUOTE]Hunter - Could you let me know the web address for this message board.
Cheers,
Rob</font>[/QUOTE]Online JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/)
It's a subscription site $15.00 for two years.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MJD:
Moudray is not one of Grandfather's children, except in the way that the Droyne are all. He's a new, young Droyne.
Yikes! And folks on the JTAS boards are worried about the Solomani Confederation fracturing apart in the GT universe? I think there are bigger problems in development...
Hunter</font>[/QUOTE]Hunter - Could you let me know the web address for this message board.
Cheers,
Rob</font>[/QUOTE]Online JTAS (http://jtas.sjgames.com/)
It's a subscription site $15.00 for two years.
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