Moxie
January 6th, 2003, 12:05 PM
I have been going through my old stuff I haven't looked at in nearly 20 years. I really liked this adventure, but does anyone know more about the ship? Where did it come from? Who built it?
The only theory I ever came up with was the Darrians, but I wasn't quite sure. Is there any apocrypha on this adventure? I always thought it was compelling but after two decades, I would love some answers.
Thanks!
The only theory I ever came up with was the Darrians, but I wasn't quite sure. Is there any apocrypha on this adventure? I always thought it was compelling but after two decades, I would love some answers.
Thanks!
Elliot
January 6th, 2003, 12:31 PM
Try looking at this link from the Citizen's archives:
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000025
http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000025
Elliot
January 6th, 2003, 12:33 PM
By the way - Avery is MWM!
Moxie
January 6th, 2003, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Elliot:
By the way - Avery is MWM!Thanks for the link and the tip! It's nice to know. smile.gif
By the way - Avery is MWM!Thanks for the link and the tip! It's nice to know. smile.gif
Antony
January 6th, 2003, 11:37 PM
I use the Annic Nova in my Banners Sector campaign. She is used as a training ship by the Alston League Navy. I figure that since nothing more is heard of this ship after that Adventure that the ship must have left Imperial Space. I did a FFS1 version of the ship which you can look at at
http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran/Banners/equipment/Craft/Imperial/anicnova.html
http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran/Banners/equipment/Craft/Imperial/anicnova.html
Antony
January 6th, 2003, 11:39 PM
Incidently IYTU was the Kinunir recovered from the Shionthy system by a PC group. If so did the government let them keep her. (I would assume that the Black Globe generator would have been removed by the Imperial Government in anycase).
Cleon the Mad
January 7th, 2003, 02:44 AM
One thing I personally decided with the Annic Nova IMTU is that the jump drive recharge system is very unstable, and that jump drives connected to a recharge system like this tend to burn out and/or cause misjumps more frequently then normal. I based this in part on how the ship has two jump drives, I reasoned that since no other race, using the conventional fuel based jump drives ever seem to put in more then one drive, that the drives themselves and/or the recharge system must not be stable and experimental, so much so that most if not all the races with jump drive know at least the theory behind the Annic Nova, but either haven't bothered, or did once, found out it was unstabled, and thus developed their technology along the fuel based jump drives.
As an aside, when someone else ran it and I was as a player, I wanted to sell one of the Jump Drives, and then replace it with a standard maneuver drive, and put in a standard power plant, just enough to power the maneuver drive, since the jump recharge system also seemed to serve as a power plant of sorts to the rest of the ship. But, the rest of our group vetoed me down and decided they just wanted to trade it in on a Fat Trader. Oh well...
:rolleyes:
As an aside, when someone else ran it and I was as a player, I wanted to sell one of the Jump Drives, and then replace it with a standard maneuver drive, and put in a standard power plant, just enough to power the maneuver drive, since the jump recharge system also seemed to serve as a power plant of sorts to the rest of the ship. But, the rest of our group vetoed me down and decided they just wanted to trade it in on a Fat Trader. Oh well...
:rolleyes:
whulorigan
November 15th, 2016, 01:49 PM
Aramis posted the link below on another thread to an interview given by Marc Miller at GameholeCon 2016. At about 34min 20 sec into the interview (thru about 41 min and 30 sec), Marc reveals for the first time his view on the origins of the Annic Nova and its unusual dual-drive set-up.
http://gamingandbs.com/bbs016
http://gamingandbs.com/bbs016
mike wightman
November 15th, 2016, 02:17 PM
And totally re-writes the history of the Vilani at the same time :)
It's a good interview.
Shame the tech mentioned isn't in T5 really...
I also have to wonder, if the AN jump 2 and jump 3 drive can be used to raise the jump 2 drive to the power of the jump 3 drive (2x2x2=jump 8) can the jump 3 drive be raised to the power of the jump 2 drive (3x3=jump 9)?
It's a good interview.
Shame the tech mentioned isn't in T5 really...
I also have to wonder, if the AN jump 2 and jump 3 drive can be used to raise the jump 2 drive to the power of the jump 3 drive (2x2x2=jump 8) can the jump 3 drive be raised to the power of the jump 2 drive (3x3=jump 9)?
whulorigan
November 15th, 2016, 02:32 PM
Shame the tech mentioned isn't in T5 really...
I got the impression from what he said in the interview that it is something to be released in a future supplement (or perhaps in an adventure where it is "discovered" . . . )
I also have to wonder, if the AN jump 2 and jump 3 drive can be used to raise the jump 2 drive to the power of the jump 3 drive (2x2x2=jump 8) can the jump 3 drive be raised to the power of the jump 2 drive (3x3=jump 9)?That was my thought as well. He mentions two J2 becoming a 22 = J4, so it seems reasonable that a J3 and a J2 should be able to be configured either way (23 = J8 or 32 = J9).
I got the impression from what he said in the interview that it is something to be released in a future supplement (or perhaps in an adventure where it is "discovered" . . . )
I also have to wonder, if the AN jump 2 and jump 3 drive can be used to raise the jump 2 drive to the power of the jump 3 drive (2x2x2=jump 8) can the jump 3 drive be raised to the power of the jump 2 drive (3x3=jump 9)?That was my thought as well. He mentions two J2 becoming a 22 = J4, so it seems reasonable that a J3 and a J2 should be able to be configured either way (23 = J8 or 32 = J9).
Iracundus
November 15th, 2016, 04:39 PM
Of course if this ever became more widely known, then one of the fundamental premises of the Traveller universe just got re-written/removed: the slow speed of travel and communication (and its knock-on social consequences).
Not so happy about the interview having a special snowflake reason for how the Vilani got Jump-2. Let's not have the Vilani be totally utterly uncreative to the point of relying on these "acts of God" events for any kind of technological advancement.
Not so happy about the interview having a special snowflake reason for how the Vilani got Jump-2. Let's not have the Vilani be totally utterly uncreative to the point of relying on these "acts of God" events for any kind of technological advancement.
Grav_Moped
November 16th, 2016, 04:47 AM
One possible reason for needing a "special snowflake reason" is that if they could have developed it independently, they would have. Despite having an empire of thousands of worlds with billions of people, it took them 3800 years to progress from J-1 to J-2 (-9235 to - 5430). This is despite knowing that Jumps longer than J-1 were possible (because misjumps can be up to J-36)! Simply suppressing research wouldn't account for it, as J-2 capability in a J-1 universe would yield an irresistible strategic and communication advantage. The only plausible explanation is that the Vilani were working with an incorrect paradigm that explained J-1 but could not be used to develop J-2 or higher -- something as wrong about the nature of Jumpspace as the geocentric model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model) was about orbital mechanics.
For example, even putting something into orbit wouldn't automatically destroy a faith in an Earth-centered solar system (although it should). Sending a rocket to the point on Mars's epicycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle) where it's supposed to be, would definitely do it though.
The Catch-22 the Vilani would have faced is that they couldn't disprove their flawed understanding of Jumpspace unless they developed J-2, and they couldn't develop J-2 without correctly understanding Jumpspace. They would not have known how to "send a rocket to Mars and miss" to disprove the theory -- in fact, they might have been certain they couldn't! Thus the nearly four century delay.
By contrast, Terrans may have started with the same flawed understanding of Jumpspace, but they started out with not only the awareness that they didn't fully understand it, but also were soon reverse-engineering Vilani J-2 drives that manipulated Jumpspace in ways that didn't match the explanations of the flawed "J-1 only" theory.
Perhaps the "fast track" Jumpspace theory (the one that leads to J-2) is far less obvious than the one that dead-ends at J-1. Some civilizations do come up with the "fast track" theory on their own, but most don't. The ones that don't, usually end up getting J-2 and normal Jump tech progression thereafter through reverse-engineering that reveals the "fast track" theory.
For example, even putting something into orbit wouldn't automatically destroy a faith in an Earth-centered solar system (although it should). Sending a rocket to the point on Mars's epicycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle) where it's supposed to be, would definitely do it though.
The Catch-22 the Vilani would have faced is that they couldn't disprove their flawed understanding of Jumpspace unless they developed J-2, and they couldn't develop J-2 without correctly understanding Jumpspace. They would not have known how to "send a rocket to Mars and miss" to disprove the theory -- in fact, they might have been certain they couldn't! Thus the nearly four century delay.
By contrast, Terrans may have started with the same flawed understanding of Jumpspace, but they started out with not only the awareness that they didn't fully understand it, but also were soon reverse-engineering Vilani J-2 drives that manipulated Jumpspace in ways that didn't match the explanations of the flawed "J-1 only" theory.
Perhaps the "fast track" Jumpspace theory (the one that leads to J-2) is far less obvious than the one that dead-ends at J-1. Some civilizations do come up with the "fast track" theory on their own, but most don't. The ones that don't, usually end up getting J-2 and normal Jump tech progression thereafter through reverse-engineering that reveals the "fast track" theory.
Grav_Moped
November 16th, 2016, 06:05 AM
It's explicitly stated in the ship description in the Adventure that the two drives cannot be combined.
"The ship has two jump drives (jump drive-F, and jump drive-J which operate independently (at J-2 and J-3, respectively), but may not sum their power." (Page 18, and yes there's a missing parenthesis in the original).
... that is, unless the description was deceptively precise. They can't sum their power, but they can exponentiate it!
Or perhaps the linkage system failed long ago and could not be repaired.
More likely, it was designed under the first-edition rules that didn't include jump regulators (a J-3 ship always burned 30% of its displacement in fuel for either a J-3 or a J-1), but for game purposes it needed to be able to jump back out of hostile situations without having to "refuel", because it was a sitting duck in normal-space. The fuel expenditure rates for the pinnaces give this away: in the second edition, small craft fuel consumption was a flat amount per month. Basically, the author chose to break the "requires liquid hydrogen fuel" requirement rather than breaking the "no jump regulator" rule, and handwaved it with magical ("sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable...") accumulators. That said, it's a "fair" rules-break in that the collector and accumulators occupy about the same displacement as the fuel and power plant they replace.
A reasonable retcon (to fit with the later "regulated-burn" 10% per parsec rules) would be to say the Jump Drive-F is actually just more accumulators and leave the rest alone.
The jump exponentiation gimmick feels like a much later afterthought -- but a remarkably clever one in terms of both expanding what's possible in canon and in justifying the ship's age and weirdness.
It does break the assumptions of the OTU, but based on the introduction of "hop" and "skip" drives, that seems to be intentional.
"The ship has two jump drives (jump drive-F, and jump drive-J which operate independently (at J-2 and J-3, respectively), but may not sum their power." (Page 18, and yes there's a missing parenthesis in the original).
... that is, unless the description was deceptively precise. They can't sum their power, but they can exponentiate it!
Or perhaps the linkage system failed long ago and could not be repaired.
More likely, it was designed under the first-edition rules that didn't include jump regulators (a J-3 ship always burned 30% of its displacement in fuel for either a J-3 or a J-1), but for game purposes it needed to be able to jump back out of hostile situations without having to "refuel", because it was a sitting duck in normal-space. The fuel expenditure rates for the pinnaces give this away: in the second edition, small craft fuel consumption was a flat amount per month. Basically, the author chose to break the "requires liquid hydrogen fuel" requirement rather than breaking the "no jump regulator" rule, and handwaved it with magical ("sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable...") accumulators. That said, it's a "fair" rules-break in that the collector and accumulators occupy about the same displacement as the fuel and power plant they replace.
A reasonable retcon (to fit with the later "regulated-burn" 10% per parsec rules) would be to say the Jump Drive-F is actually just more accumulators and leave the rest alone.
The jump exponentiation gimmick feels like a much later afterthought -- but a remarkably clever one in terms of both expanding what's possible in canon and in justifying the ship's age and weirdness.
It does break the assumptions of the OTU, but based on the introduction of "hop" and "skip" drives, that seems to be intentional.
Iracundus
November 16th, 2016, 06:47 AM
One possible reason for needing a "special snowflake reason" is that if they could have developed it independently, they would have. Despite having an empire of thousands of worlds with billions of people, it took them 3800 years to progress from J-1 to J-2 (-9235 to - 5430). This is despite knowing that Jumps longer than J-1 were possible (because misjumps can be up to J-36)! Simply suppressing research wouldn't account for it, as J-2 capability in a J-1 universe would yield an irresistible strategic and communication advantage. The only plausible explanation is that the Vilani were working with an incorrect paradigm that explained J-1 but could not be used to develop J-2 or higher -- something as wrong about the nature of Jumpspace as the geocentric model (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric_model) was about orbital mechanics.
For example, even putting something into orbit wouldn't automatically destroy a faith in an Earth-centered solar system (although it should). Sending a rocket to the point on Mars's epicycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle) where it's supposed to be, would definitely do it though.
The Catch-22 the Vilani would have faced is that they couldn't disprove their flawed understanding of Jumpspace unless they developed J-2, and they couldn't develop J-2 without correctly understanding Jumpspace. They would not have known how to "send a rocket to Mars and miss" to disprove the theory -- in fact, they might have been certain they couldn't! Thus the nearly four century delay.
By contrast, Terrans may have started with the same flawed understanding of Jumpspace, but they started out with not only the awareness that they didn't fully understand it, but also were soon reverse-engineering Vilani J-2 drives that manipulated Jumpspace in ways that didn't match the explanations of the flawed "J-1 only" theory.
Perhaps the "fast track" Jumpspace theory (the one that leads to J-2) is far less obvious than the one that dead-ends at J-1. Some civilizations do come up with the "fast track" theory on their own, but most don't. The ones that don't, usually end up getting J-2 and normal Jump tech progression thereafter through reverse-engineering that reveals the "fast track" theory.
I like this idea. I much prefer this explanation (and that the Vilani ultimately very slowly due to their conservatism still overcame it). I still don't like the idea of special snowflake coming back from misjump having effectively been gifted the secrets of Jump-2. It's like they need a prophet coming down with tablets to make any progress and makes the Vilani out to be incompetent. I like the GURPS Interstellar Wars explanation of Vilani deliberately social engineering a culture of conservatism and stasis rather than the Vilani somehow being innately unimaginative.
I suppose too that if going up a level in Jump is like a big paradigm shifting revolution rather than the incremental improvement the Vilani seem to like, that would help explain things. Their preference for tinkering with existing technology and theory over breaking out into unknown intellectual territory may have meant they kept hitting dead ends until finally someone hit upon it after finding out that past Vilani had tried everything else. Maybe why they never conceived of Jump-3 or meson weapons was because not enough time had passed in the 1st Imperium for the Vilani to have hit their head against every brick in the wall of Jump-2 theory first (plus of course the 1st Imperium's social clampdown on new technology research).
Also even though the Vilani might have known that misjumps could hurl ships even further off course, that does not necessarily mean they knew it was feasible for them to achieve it. They could have chalked it up to the mysteries of the universe or natural disaster. Someone who only knows how to paddle on a log might know the universe through a hurricane can hurl them fast and far away but not think that it would be possible for them as humans to achieve it.
I guess I'm just against special snowflakes and super aliens more and more now and more in favor of social, political, and economic factors explaining things.
For example, even putting something into orbit wouldn't automatically destroy a faith in an Earth-centered solar system (although it should). Sending a rocket to the point on Mars's epicycle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferent_and_epicycle) where it's supposed to be, would definitely do it though.
The Catch-22 the Vilani would have faced is that they couldn't disprove their flawed understanding of Jumpspace unless they developed J-2, and they couldn't develop J-2 without correctly understanding Jumpspace. They would not have known how to "send a rocket to Mars and miss" to disprove the theory -- in fact, they might have been certain they couldn't! Thus the nearly four century delay.
By contrast, Terrans may have started with the same flawed understanding of Jumpspace, but they started out with not only the awareness that they didn't fully understand it, but also were soon reverse-engineering Vilani J-2 drives that manipulated Jumpspace in ways that didn't match the explanations of the flawed "J-1 only" theory.
Perhaps the "fast track" Jumpspace theory (the one that leads to J-2) is far less obvious than the one that dead-ends at J-1. Some civilizations do come up with the "fast track" theory on their own, but most don't. The ones that don't, usually end up getting J-2 and normal Jump tech progression thereafter through reverse-engineering that reveals the "fast track" theory.
I like this idea. I much prefer this explanation (and that the Vilani ultimately very slowly due to their conservatism still overcame it). I still don't like the idea of special snowflake coming back from misjump having effectively been gifted the secrets of Jump-2. It's like they need a prophet coming down with tablets to make any progress and makes the Vilani out to be incompetent. I like the GURPS Interstellar Wars explanation of Vilani deliberately social engineering a culture of conservatism and stasis rather than the Vilani somehow being innately unimaginative.
I suppose too that if going up a level in Jump is like a big paradigm shifting revolution rather than the incremental improvement the Vilani seem to like, that would help explain things. Their preference for tinkering with existing technology and theory over breaking out into unknown intellectual territory may have meant they kept hitting dead ends until finally someone hit upon it after finding out that past Vilani had tried everything else. Maybe why they never conceived of Jump-3 or meson weapons was because not enough time had passed in the 1st Imperium for the Vilani to have hit their head against every brick in the wall of Jump-2 theory first (plus of course the 1st Imperium's social clampdown on new technology research).
Also even though the Vilani might have known that misjumps could hurl ships even further off course, that does not necessarily mean they knew it was feasible for them to achieve it. They could have chalked it up to the mysteries of the universe or natural disaster. Someone who only knows how to paddle on a log might know the universe through a hurricane can hurl them fast and far away but not think that it would be possible for them as humans to achieve it.
I guess I'm just against special snowflakes and super aliens more and more now and more in favor of social, political, and economic factors explaining things.
whulorigan
November 16th, 2016, 09:51 AM
More likely, it was designed under the first-edition rules that didn't include jump regulators (a J-3 ship always burned 30% of its displacement in fuel for either a J-3 or a J-1), but for game purposes it needed to be able to jump back out of hostile situations without having to "refuel", because it was a sitting duck in normal-space. The fuel expenditure rates for the pinnaces give this away: in the second edition, small craft fuel consumption was a flat amount per month. Basically, the author chose to break the "requires liquid hydrogen fuel" requirement rather than breaking the "no jump regulator" rule, and handwaved it with magical ("sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable...") accumulators. That said, it's a "fair" rules-break in that the collector and accumulators occupy about the same displacement as the fuel and power plant they replace.It was designed under CT'77 rules. Annic Nova actually first appears in the very first Article of JTAS (JTAS #1, 1979), before CT'81 had been published. It was later slightly altered and updated for Double Adventure #1, 1980 (Pre-1981, but post High Guard 1979/1980)). Under High Guard 1 (1979), Jump Governors are an option, but not standard. After High Guard 2 and CT'81, they become standard and mention of them is dropped from the text.
It's explicitly stated in the ship description in the Adventure that the two drives cannot be combined.
"The ship has two jump drives (jump drive-F, and jump drive-J which operate independently (at J-2 and J-3, respectively), but may not sum their power." (Page 18, and yes there's a missing parenthesis in the original).
... that is, unless the description was deceptively precise. They can't sum their power, but they can exponentiate it!An interesting thing to note is that in the JTAS version, the quote about the drives being J2 and J3, and not able to sum their power is present, but the jump software package for the computer includes only Jump 2 and Jump 4 (?) exclusively.
Or perhaps the linkage system failed long ago and could not be repaired.That would be my explanation.
Or, alternatively, under CT you need the appropriate Jump Program running in the computer CPU and a minimum computer model number. Would a linked drive set-up need both the Jump-3 and Jump-2 programs running simultaneously, or would it need a Jump-8 or Jump-9 program to control the jump? Perhaps it is a computer-model (Annic Nova's was Model/3) or software problem preventing higher-level jumps (and an interesting thing for a group of adventurers to discover long after they have gained possession of the ship. :) )
The jump exponentiation gimmick feels like a much later afterthought -- but a remarkably clever one in terms of both expanding what's possible in canon and in justifying the ship's age and weirdness.
I believe Marc implied as much in the interview. He mentioned that when they wrote the adventure, they had no idea where it was from or any of its details. It was an enigma, and was left as such. One of Marc's goals for T5, however, has been to bring in everything that went before under "one tent" so to speak, and systematize and detail the loose ends. Annic Nova has been one of those enigmas for a very long time, and explaining the reason for having the second J-Drive has always been a puzzle.
It's explicitly stated in the ship description in the Adventure that the two drives cannot be combined.
"The ship has two jump drives (jump drive-F, and jump drive-J which operate independently (at J-2 and J-3, respectively), but may not sum their power." (Page 18, and yes there's a missing parenthesis in the original).
... that is, unless the description was deceptively precise. They can't sum their power, but they can exponentiate it!An interesting thing to note is that in the JTAS version, the quote about the drives being J2 and J3, and not able to sum their power is present, but the jump software package for the computer includes only Jump 2 and Jump 4 (?) exclusively.
Or perhaps the linkage system failed long ago and could not be repaired.That would be my explanation.
Or, alternatively, under CT you need the appropriate Jump Program running in the computer CPU and a minimum computer model number. Would a linked drive set-up need both the Jump-3 and Jump-2 programs running simultaneously, or would it need a Jump-8 or Jump-9 program to control the jump? Perhaps it is a computer-model (Annic Nova's was Model/3) or software problem preventing higher-level jumps (and an interesting thing for a group of adventurers to discover long after they have gained possession of the ship. :) )
The jump exponentiation gimmick feels like a much later afterthought -- but a remarkably clever one in terms of both expanding what's possible in canon and in justifying the ship's age and weirdness.
I believe Marc implied as much in the interview. He mentioned that when they wrote the adventure, they had no idea where it was from or any of its details. It was an enigma, and was left as such. One of Marc's goals for T5, however, has been to bring in everything that went before under "one tent" so to speak, and systematize and detail the loose ends. Annic Nova has been one of those enigmas for a very long time, and explaining the reason for having the second J-Drive has always been a puzzle.
whulorigan
November 16th, 2016, 12:53 PM
Note also this quote about the Annic Nova from another thread (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=323) made by Marc Miller himself back in 2001:
It was an opaque puzzle to which we ourselves really didn't know the answers either. The strange numbers have have evolved over time and are now treated as Vilani numbers.
There was some clue that the ship (in the Spinward Marches) was recently in the Solomani Rim... thus travelling at considerably greater than J6. Misjump? Really good engines? etc.
As to answers, no cannon answers have been established.
Marc
It was an opaque puzzle to which we ourselves really didn't know the answers either. The strange numbers have have evolved over time and are now treated as Vilani numbers.
There was some clue that the ship (in the Spinward Marches) was recently in the Solomani Rim... thus travelling at considerably greater than J6. Misjump? Really good engines? etc.
As to answers, no cannon answers have been established.
Marc
Condottiere
November 16th, 2016, 01:44 PM
Going by Mongoose Second, Collector technology can't be reverse engineered, and if it exists in this time line, the Annic Nova is the only starship identified as having it.
It's unlikely any Imperium agency, technology, military and/or intelligence, would allow it to go on it's merry way.
It's unlikely any Imperium agency, technology, military and/or intelligence, would allow it to go on it's merry way.
mike wightman
November 16th, 2016, 03:00 PM
There is nothing in MgT HG2e that suggests you can not reverse engineer collector tech. There is even the possibility of building experimental collectors at lower TLs and giving them disadvantages - something also possible in T5.
And I agree that the elephant in the room is that no group of PCs would have been allowed to keep such a unique technology unless the 3I was already aware of it and had dismissed its viability for interstellar commerce.
And I agree that the elephant in the room is that no group of PCs would have been allowed to keep such a unique technology unless the 3I was already aware of it and had dismissed its viability for interstellar commerce.
mike wightman
November 16th, 2016, 03:02 PM
Note also this quote about the Annic Nova from another thread (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=323) made by Marc Miller himself back in 2001:Something else to consider is that at the time the original and even DA versions were written the full scale of the Imperium hadn't been considered.
The exact distance from Terra to the Spinward Marches in the proto-Imperium is not known - they could have been much closer than the later version of the 3I would make them.
The exact distance from Terra to the Spinward Marches in the proto-Imperium is not known - they could have been much closer than the later version of the 3I would make them.
Grav_Moped
November 17th, 2016, 12:48 AM
I like this idea. I much prefer this explanation (and that the Vilani ultimately very slowly due to their conservatism still overcame it). I still don't like the idea of special snowflake coming back from misjump having effectively been gifted the secrets of Jump-2. It's like they need a prophet coming down with tablets to make any progress and makes the Vilani out to be incompetent.
...
I guess I'm just against special snowflakes and super aliens more and more now and more in favor of social, political, and economic factors explaining things.
I completely agree. But special snowflakes and super aliens are canonical themes of the OTU, which means they'll crop up time after time throughout it. Sometimes, perhaps unnecessarily so.
Part of the problem is that nearly all of the canon background is written as stories or story fragments, each of which has to be not only compelling in its own right but also thematically consistent with the OTU. While "iconoclastic Vilani researcher upends millenia of scientific thought, discovers J-2" might be a good story (Leonardo da Vinci IN SPACE!), it's not a Traveller story. On the other hand, "shipwrecked starfarer stumbles upon incredibly advanced mysterious civilization, befriends aliens, undertakes odyssey home with secret of J-2" is absolutely an archetypal Traveller story. Regrettably, it's ultimately less satisfying in terms of creating a history for the Vilani as a whole.
...
I guess I'm just against special snowflakes and super aliens more and more now and more in favor of social, political, and economic factors explaining things.
I completely agree. But special snowflakes and super aliens are canonical themes of the OTU, which means they'll crop up time after time throughout it. Sometimes, perhaps unnecessarily so.
Part of the problem is that nearly all of the canon background is written as stories or story fragments, each of which has to be not only compelling in its own right but also thematically consistent with the OTU. While "iconoclastic Vilani researcher upends millenia of scientific thought, discovers J-2" might be a good story (Leonardo da Vinci IN SPACE!), it's not a Traveller story. On the other hand, "shipwrecked starfarer stumbles upon incredibly advanced mysterious civilization, befriends aliens, undertakes odyssey home with secret of J-2" is absolutely an archetypal Traveller story. Regrettably, it's ultimately less satisfying in terms of creating a history for the Vilani as a whole.
Grav_Moped
November 17th, 2016, 01:48 AM
It was designed under CT'77 rules. Annic Nova actually first appears in the very first Article of JTAS (JTAS #1, 1979), before CT'81 had been published. It was later slightly altered and updated for Double Adventure #1, 1980 (Pre-1981, but post High Guard 1979/1980)). Under High Guard 1 (1979), Jump Governors are an option, but not standard. After High Guard 2 and CT'81, they become standard and mention of them is dropped from the text.
Thanks for the confirmation! In retrospect, I'm surprised that the idea of a big and small jump drive to get around the flat-rate-max Jump fuel rule didn't get exploited anywhere else in the first-edition era.
An interesting thing to note is that in the JTAS version, the quote about the drives being J2 and J3, and not able to sum their power is present, but the jump software package for the computer includes only Jump 2 and Jump 4 (?) exclusively.
Weird. Wonder where they thought they were going with that?
That would be my explanation.
Or, alternatively, under CT you need the appropriate Jump Program running in the computer CPU and a minimum computer model number. Would a linked drive set-up need both the Jump-3 and Jump-2 programs running simultaneously, or would it need a Jump-8 or Jump-9 program to control the jump? Perhaps it is a computer-model (Annic Nova's was Model/3) or software problem preventing higher-level jumps (and an interesting thing for a group of adventurers to discover long after they have gained possession of the ship. :) )
I like that...
(And where do you find someone who can even write a Jump-8 or Jump-9 program in the Imperium in the early 1100s?!)
I believe Marc implied as much in the interview. He mentioned that when they wrote the adventure, they had no idea where it was from or any of its details. It was an enigma, and was left as such. One of Marc's goals for T5, however, has been to bring in everything that went before under "one tent" so to speak, and systematize and detail the loose ends. Annic Nova has been one of those enigmas for a very long time, and explaining the reason for having the second J-Drive has always been a puzzle.
It's kind of awkward to have to explain that one of the key mysteries of one of the first published adventures was merely an artifact of an obsolete rules system. It's not unique in that -- a lot of the published ship designs were broken. But I do have to give Marc credit for his heroic effort to reconcile all of this, even (and especially) the things that they didn't realize or care were inconsistent at the time. After all, it was just a game! I really can't believe that anyone involved could have conceived that almost forty years later, people would still be having fandom-wars over it...
It's a damn impressive testament to their creativity and effort that we still do.
Thanks for the confirmation! In retrospect, I'm surprised that the idea of a big and small jump drive to get around the flat-rate-max Jump fuel rule didn't get exploited anywhere else in the first-edition era.
An interesting thing to note is that in the JTAS version, the quote about the drives being J2 and J3, and not able to sum their power is present, but the jump software package for the computer includes only Jump 2 and Jump 4 (?) exclusively.
Weird. Wonder where they thought they were going with that?
That would be my explanation.
Or, alternatively, under CT you need the appropriate Jump Program running in the computer CPU and a minimum computer model number. Would a linked drive set-up need both the Jump-3 and Jump-2 programs running simultaneously, or would it need a Jump-8 or Jump-9 program to control the jump? Perhaps it is a computer-model (Annic Nova's was Model/3) or software problem preventing higher-level jumps (and an interesting thing for a group of adventurers to discover long after they have gained possession of the ship. :) )
I like that...
(And where do you find someone who can even write a Jump-8 or Jump-9 program in the Imperium in the early 1100s?!)
I believe Marc implied as much in the interview. He mentioned that when they wrote the adventure, they had no idea where it was from or any of its details. It was an enigma, and was left as such. One of Marc's goals for T5, however, has been to bring in everything that went before under "one tent" so to speak, and systematize and detail the loose ends. Annic Nova has been one of those enigmas for a very long time, and explaining the reason for having the second J-Drive has always been a puzzle.
It's kind of awkward to have to explain that one of the key mysteries of one of the first published adventures was merely an artifact of an obsolete rules system. It's not unique in that -- a lot of the published ship designs were broken. But I do have to give Marc credit for his heroic effort to reconcile all of this, even (and especially) the things that they didn't realize or care were inconsistent at the time. After all, it was just a game! I really can't believe that anyone involved could have conceived that almost forty years later, people would still be having fandom-wars over it...
It's a damn impressive testament to their creativity and effort that we still do.
Iracundus
November 17th, 2016, 04:06 PM
While "iconoclastic Vilani researcher upends millenia of scientific thought, discovers J-2" might be a good story (Leonardo da Vinci IN SPACE!), it's not a Traveller story.
Why not? Maybe before this researcher can fully pin down the Jump-2 theory, he or she needs some more data and sends people (i.e. players) out to do or gather data from things like strange space phenomena, misjumpt witness reports or jump drive data from past misjump cases. Maybe the researcher prototypes a flawed Jump-2 and the players need to test it and it misjumps so the players have to get back and help researcher work out the bugs to get to a standard working Jump-2.
These story seeds could similarly work for any time there is a new advance in Jump level.
Why not? Maybe before this researcher can fully pin down the Jump-2 theory, he or she needs some more data and sends people (i.e. players) out to do or gather data from things like strange space phenomena, misjumpt witness reports or jump drive data from past misjump cases. Maybe the researcher prototypes a flawed Jump-2 and the players need to test it and it misjumps so the players have to get back and help researcher work out the bugs to get to a standard working Jump-2.
These story seeds could similarly work for any time there is a new advance in Jump level.
Grav_Moped
November 18th, 2016, 12:01 AM
Why not? Maybe before this researcher can fully pin down the Jump-2 theory, he or she needs some more data and sends people (i.e. players) out to do or gather data from things like strange space phenomena, misjumpt witness reports or jump drive data from past misjump cases. Maybe the researcher prototypes a flawed Jump-2 and the players need to test it and it misjumps so the players have to get back and help researcher work out the bugs to get to a standard working Jump-2.
These story seeds could similarly work for any time there is a new advance in Jump level.I specifically said it could be a good story, and I fully agree you could use it as the basis of a minor campaign. I also agree that it's really the more plausible story.
That said, for the out-of-universe reasons I mentioned, the history of the OTU tends not to happen that way.
On the other hand, you can retcon the retcon... the "shipwrecked starship brings back the secret of J-2" story did in fact happen, but long after the Vilani had already discovered J-2 for themselves and suppressed it as too destabilizing. The reason the legend-like story became the official history was because it turned out that suppressing J-2 technology turned out badly for them a few times over the millennia, and they didn't want to admit to the suppression. Better to seem scientifically incompetent than to be seen as actively crushing innovation for social control...
These story seeds could similarly work for any time there is a new advance in Jump level.I specifically said it could be a good story, and I fully agree you could use it as the basis of a minor campaign. I also agree that it's really the more plausible story.
That said, for the out-of-universe reasons I mentioned, the history of the OTU tends not to happen that way.
On the other hand, you can retcon the retcon... the "shipwrecked starship brings back the secret of J-2" story did in fact happen, but long after the Vilani had already discovered J-2 for themselves and suppressed it as too destabilizing. The reason the legend-like story became the official history was because it turned out that suppressing J-2 technology turned out badly for them a few times over the millennia, and they didn't want to admit to the suppression. Better to seem scientifically incompetent than to be seen as actively crushing innovation for social control...
whulorigan
November 18th, 2016, 10:02 AM
Aramis posted the link below on another thread to an interview given by Marc Miller at GameholeCon 2016. At about 34min 20 sec into the interview (thru about 41 min and 30 sec), Marc reveals for the first time his view on the origins of the Annic Nova and its unusual dual-drive set-up.
http://gamingandbs.com/bbs016
Actually, I would love to see Marc bring this up as a discussion topic in the Audience Hall forum of the CotI Imperial Moot.
I don't know if the concept is still in the formative stages in his mind or not, but some of the ramifications (and its relationship to the higher-order "hyperdrives") would make for an interesting discussion based on how Marc sees them all fitting together.
http://gamingandbs.com/bbs016
Actually, I would love to see Marc bring this up as a discussion topic in the Audience Hall forum of the CotI Imperial Moot.
I don't know if the concept is still in the formative stages in his mind or not, but some of the ramifications (and its relationship to the higher-order "hyperdrives") would make for an interesting discussion based on how Marc sees them all fitting together.
timerover51
November 18th, 2016, 11:23 PM
I have always viewed in as a Droyne ship built with some Ancient technology included. The controllable "black field" for energy absorption for basic ship's power, with the Jump Drives powered from a "pocket universe", which needs ship power to tap into. The Droyne used the pinnaces to supply ship's power as well as the field collector, and the third pinnace supplied maneuver power, also tapping into the "pocket universe". As the ship has no extensive Liquid-H tanks, the Jump Drives operate under a different principle from the drives commonly used on other ships.
mike wightman
November 19th, 2016, 02:53 AM
How do you explain the Imperial authorities showing no interest in confiscating it and tearing it apart to learn its secrets?
Hmm, just noticed that the pinnaces use reaction drives...
Hmm, just noticed that the pinnaces use reaction drives...
Grav_Moped
November 19th, 2016, 04:38 AM
Going by Mongoose Second, Collector technology can't be reverse engineered, and if it exists in this time line, the Annic Nova is the only starship identified as having it.
It's unlikely any Imperium agency, technology, military and/or intelligence, would allow it to go on it's merry way.
How do you explain the Imperial authorities showing no interest in confiscating it and tearing it apart to learn its secrets?<waves hand> "These are not the Jump Drives you're looking for." ... wait, wrong universe. I've got nothing.Hmm, just noticed that the pinnaces use reaction drives...
Reaction drives were explicit in First Edition small craft, and implicit in ships. Didn't they have a rule for weaponizing maneuver drive exhaust as per fusion guns in First Edition HG, or am I misremembering?
Also, the "dry" (no L-Hyd required) Jump Drives are at variance with the rest of canon Jump Drive technology up to TL 15, possibly beyond. At the very least, it could become the basis for a fuel efficiency boost to canon TL<16 Jump Drives (it saves the part of the fuel requirement that would normally be vented to keep the Jump field bubble inflated). The Imperials will definitely want to figure out how that's done.
It's unlikely any Imperium agency, technology, military and/or intelligence, would allow it to go on it's merry way.
How do you explain the Imperial authorities showing no interest in confiscating it and tearing it apart to learn its secrets?<waves hand> "These are not the Jump Drives you're looking for." ... wait, wrong universe. I've got nothing.Hmm, just noticed that the pinnaces use reaction drives...
Reaction drives were explicit in First Edition small craft, and implicit in ships. Didn't they have a rule for weaponizing maneuver drive exhaust as per fusion guns in First Edition HG, or am I misremembering?
Also, the "dry" (no L-Hyd required) Jump Drives are at variance with the rest of canon Jump Drive technology up to TL 15, possibly beyond. At the very least, it could become the basis for a fuel efficiency boost to canon TL<16 Jump Drives (it saves the part of the fuel requirement that would normally be vented to keep the Jump field bubble inflated). The Imperials will definitely want to figure out how that's done.
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