Keklas Rekobah
May 19th, 2003, 05:25 PM
Backstory:
RPG gamer married to Christian minister, whose only concept of RPG's is similar to the Tom Hanks TV movie 'Dungeon Master' (i.e., "RPG's are all alike; inherently evil", and "RPG players are all a few wafers short of a full communion.", graemlins/file_23.gif )
Situation:
1) Minister has consented to playing Traveller :D .
2) Available players could easily reinforce the pre-conceived notion mentioned above once the caffeine starts flowing (players of Cyberpunk, AD&D, Vampyres, etc. :cool: ).
Question:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
;) A "Friend of mine" (who really loves the minister) needs to know...
RPG gamer married to Christian minister, whose only concept of RPG's is similar to the Tom Hanks TV movie 'Dungeon Master' (i.e., "RPG's are all alike; inherently evil", and "RPG players are all a few wafers short of a full communion.", graemlins/file_23.gif )
Situation:
1) Minister has consented to playing Traveller :D .
2) Available players could easily reinforce the pre-conceived notion mentioned above once the caffeine starts flowing (players of Cyberpunk, AD&D, Vampyres, etc. :cool: ).
Question:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
;) A "Friend of mine" (who really loves the minister) needs to know...
siefertma2
May 19th, 2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
Backstory:
RPG gamer married to Christian minister, whose only concept of RPG's is similar to the Tom Hanks TV movie 'Dungeon Master' (i.e., "RPG's are all alike; inherently evil", and "RPG players are all a few wafers short of a full communion.", graemlins/file_23.gif )
Situation:
1) Minister has consented to playing Traveller :D .
2) Available players could easily reinforce the pre-conceived notion mentioned above once the caffeine starts flowing (players of Cyberpunk, AD&D, Vampyres, etc. :cool: ).
Question:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
;) A "Friend of mine" (who really loves the minister) needs to know... I would actaully take him into a few one-on-one scenarios before I introduce him into the group. That way his preconceived notions will have been put at ease somewhat before he meets the main group.
I know how you feel. I have a gamer-turned-fundie uncle who bought into the whole Jack Chick BS and found JEEZ-us. You should see the acidic looks he gives me when I show up to family get-togethers with any of my gaming stuff. At least he keeps his mouth shut, otherwise I'd be forced to shut it for him--uncle or not. (e.g. WHAM! WHAM! WHERE'S YOUR MESSIAH NOW??? WHAM! WHAM!)
Backstory:
RPG gamer married to Christian minister, whose only concept of RPG's is similar to the Tom Hanks TV movie 'Dungeon Master' (i.e., "RPG's are all alike; inherently evil", and "RPG players are all a few wafers short of a full communion.", graemlins/file_23.gif )
Situation:
1) Minister has consented to playing Traveller :D .
2) Available players could easily reinforce the pre-conceived notion mentioned above once the caffeine starts flowing (players of Cyberpunk, AD&D, Vampyres, etc. :cool: ).
Question:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
;) A "Friend of mine" (who really loves the minister) needs to know... I would actaully take him into a few one-on-one scenarios before I introduce him into the group. That way his preconceived notions will have been put at ease somewhat before he meets the main group.
I know how you feel. I have a gamer-turned-fundie uncle who bought into the whole Jack Chick BS and found JEEZ-us. You should see the acidic looks he gives me when I show up to family get-togethers with any of my gaming stuff. At least he keeps his mouth shut, otherwise I'd be forced to shut it for him--uncle or not. (e.g. WHAM! WHAM! WHERE'S YOUR MESSIAH NOW??? WHAM! WHAM!)
Keklas Rekobah
May 19th, 2003, 06:27 PM
thanx fer the quick response.
I'm also a 'fundie', although my rabidity level is way lower than most others - I do not turn Righteous Red, wave a crucifix, and quote the latest Chix Trax every time I see the words 'Dragon' or 'Dungeon'. :mad:
My beliefs are more along the lines of "Let's all just get along and play nice". Agreeing to disagree is one of my 'fundie' beliefs.
BTW: I have a template for a "Shephard" character, a la Firefly - any interest?
PS: The minister is a "her", not a "him". ;)
I'm also a 'fundie', although my rabidity level is way lower than most others - I do not turn Righteous Red, wave a crucifix, and quote the latest Chix Trax every time I see the words 'Dragon' or 'Dungeon'. :mad:
My beliefs are more along the lines of "Let's all just get along and play nice". Agreeing to disagree is one of my 'fundie' beliefs.
BTW: I have a template for a "Shephard" character, a la Firefly - any interest?
PS: The minister is a "her", not a "him". ;)
T. Foster
May 19th, 2003, 06:33 PM
First and foremost you should brief the veteran players beforehand. Explain the situation and offer them the choice of either 1) trying to stay on good behavior, or 2) finding an excuse to skip that session. As long as your players aren't 14 year old boys and you're not serving liquor they should be able to show some restraint if they know they're supposed to.
As for the in-game activity, I'd choose something where the PCs are placed in the role of 'good guys' and that favors problem-solving/mystery and negotiation/role-playing over crime and violence (or at least sentient-on-sentient violence). Using published adventures as examples, I'd choose something more like Research Station Gamma (PCs motivated by altruism; mystery-oriented) or Nomads of the World-Ocean (PCs motivated by environmental sensitivity; role-playing/diplomacy oriented) and less like those Amber Zones and Patron Encounters where the PCs are hired to steal something or kidnap somebody or various other extra-legal activities.
If the minister gets hooked and wants to join the campaign permanently you'll need to come clean and admit you've been soft-pedalling the violence and other 'rude' behavior for her sake. If she's cool (and if you're inviting her to join your group permanently we'll assume she is) she'll understand. You'll likely still need to keep a lid on things like senseless PC slaughter of innocent bystanders, PCs torturing NPCs for information, and players shouting profanities across the table (i.e. REALLY rude behavior) but I daresay you should be discouraging that kind of stuff anyway -- minister present or not.
(Edited to correct the hypothetical minister's gender)
As for the in-game activity, I'd choose something where the PCs are placed in the role of 'good guys' and that favors problem-solving/mystery and negotiation/role-playing over crime and violence (or at least sentient-on-sentient violence). Using published adventures as examples, I'd choose something more like Research Station Gamma (PCs motivated by altruism; mystery-oriented) or Nomads of the World-Ocean (PCs motivated by environmental sensitivity; role-playing/diplomacy oriented) and less like those Amber Zones and Patron Encounters where the PCs are hired to steal something or kidnap somebody or various other extra-legal activities.
If the minister gets hooked and wants to join the campaign permanently you'll need to come clean and admit you've been soft-pedalling the violence and other 'rude' behavior for her sake. If she's cool (and if you're inviting her to join your group permanently we'll assume she is) she'll understand. You'll likely still need to keep a lid on things like senseless PC slaughter of innocent bystanders, PCs torturing NPCs for information, and players shouting profanities across the table (i.e. REALLY rude behavior) but I daresay you should be discouraging that kind of stuff anyway -- minister present or not.
(Edited to correct the hypothetical minister's gender)
Keklas Rekobah
May 19th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Research Station Gamma (PCs motivated by altruism; mystery-oriented) or Nomads of the World-Ocean (PCs motivated by environmental sensitivity; role-playing/diplomacy oriented) I do not have these adventures. Can you give a brief synopsis without a copyright violation?
T. Foster
May 19th, 2003, 07:48 PM
Purposely deleted to avoid spoiling these adventures for anybody else.
Keklas Rekobah
May 19th, 2003, 07:52 PM
Message deleted to prevent spoilage.
Baron Saarthuran
May 20th, 2003, 12:16 AM
I would be curious to know as to why this minister wants to play Traveller, in the first place. Second, a referee must maintain impartiality, and not let the real life role of a player interfere with the flow of the game. If he has consented to play Traveller because he genuinely desires to see what it is like with an objective, open mind, he should be mature enough to be able to handle it... Ministers are supposed to be learned men as well as spirtual leaders...
It sounds like he's already made up his mind about RPGs to me...
Ps: the movie you refer to is "Mazes and Monsters"
The "Dungeon Master" is a true story about a kid named Dallas that had some very screwed up parents, although Dungeons and Dragons is blamed for his eventual suicide... If you can find the book I highly recommend it.
graemlins/omega.gif
It sounds like he's already made up his mind about RPGs to me...
Ps: the movie you refer to is "Mazes and Monsters"
The "Dungeon Master" is a true story about a kid named Dallas that had some very screwed up parents, although Dungeons and Dragons is blamed for his eventual suicide... If you can find the book I highly recommend it.
graemlins/omega.gif
hirch duckfinder
May 20th, 2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
Backstory:
RPG gamer married to Christian minister, whose only concept of RPG's is similar to the Tom Hanks TV movie 'Dungeon Master' (i.e., "RPG's are all alike; inherently evil", and "RPG players are all a few wafers short of a full communion.", graemlins/file_23.gif )
Situation:
1) Minister has consented to playing Traveller :D .
2) Available players could easily reinforce the pre-conceived notion mentioned above once the caffeine starts flowing (players of Cyberpunk, AD&D, Vampyres, etc. :cool: ).
Question:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
;) A "Friend of mine" (who really loves the minister) needs to know... ----------- sorry , this is not going to help your situation at all but i am curious ; why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd . its a game . ( people that irrational are worrying , who knows where they will turn their blind bigotry next ) .
Backstory:
RPG gamer married to Christian minister, whose only concept of RPG's is similar to the Tom Hanks TV movie 'Dungeon Master' (i.e., "RPG's are all alike; inherently evil", and "RPG players are all a few wafers short of a full communion.", graemlins/file_23.gif )
Situation:
1) Minister has consented to playing Traveller :D .
2) Available players could easily reinforce the pre-conceived notion mentioned above once the caffeine starts flowing (players of Cyberpunk, AD&D, Vampyres, etc. :cool: ).
Question:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
;) A "Friend of mine" (who really loves the minister) needs to know... ----------- sorry , this is not going to help your situation at all but i am curious ; why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd . its a game . ( people that irrational are worrying , who knows where they will turn their blind bigotry next ) .
Ben W Bell
May 20th, 2003, 05:34 AM
As a regular believer and worshiper myself I have no problem with RPGs, and I also run Call of Cthulhu. I know what is fact and what is fiction and have no problems seperating reality from that fiction.
Some people do have problems with it though, just explain that it is a film and they are acting the parts but it is completely escapist fantasy with no basis on peoples actual personalities or beliefs.
Some people do have problems with it though, just explain that it is a film and they are acting the parts but it is completely escapist fantasy with no basis on peoples actual personalities or beliefs.
Keklas Rekobah
May 20th, 2003, 11:26 AM
Baron Saarthuran
Thank you for the correction - I appreciate the fact that you caught my error and spoke up about it. "Dungeon Master" was a book about a kid named Steve D. Egbert (sp?) who allegedly did some wierd things after playing a popular RPG.
The Tom Hanks movie may as well have been put together in the dark corner of some church basement for all the assumptions and innacuracies involved.
As for my motivations, there is only one - to have as much fun with as many people as possible while playing Traveller.
Beyond this, no other reason is conceivable.
Thank you for the correction - I appreciate the fact that you caught my error and spoke up about it. "Dungeon Master" was a book about a kid named Steve D. Egbert (sp?) who allegedly did some wierd things after playing a popular RPG.
The Tom Hanks movie may as well have been put together in the dark corner of some church basement for all the assumptions and innacuracies involved.
As for my motivations, there is only one - to have as much fun with as many people as possible while playing Traveller.
Beyond this, no other reason is conceivable.
Keklas Rekobah
May 20th, 2003, 11:37 AM
"... why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd." Mr. Duckfinder,
I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer your question. To me, a game is a game, religion is religion, and faith is faith. Problems arise when any two of these overlap.
Games and religion - People end up worshipping players and teams, while excluding or deriding anyone else who does not feel the same way (Go Arsenal!).
Games and Faith - The origin of religion; the politics of faith.
Religion and faith - Dogmatic, knee-jerk reactionism to anything that might be 'fun', especially if the church can not get a 'tithe' of the action.
Heck-fire! I can't even figure out why some T20 players look down on my friends and I for adhering to Classic Traveller!
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!" - A World War One song lyric.
"Let's all just get along and play nice!" - Mom.
I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer your question. To me, a game is a game, religion is religion, and faith is faith. Problems arise when any two of these overlap.
Games and religion - People end up worshipping players and teams, while excluding or deriding anyone else who does not feel the same way (Go Arsenal!).
Games and Faith - The origin of religion; the politics of faith.
Religion and faith - Dogmatic, knee-jerk reactionism to anything that might be 'fun', especially if the church can not get a 'tithe' of the action.
Heck-fire! I can't even figure out why some T20 players look down on my friends and I for adhering to Classic Traveller!
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!" - A World War One song lyric.
"Let's all just get along and play nice!" - Mom.
Anton
May 20th, 2003, 12:27 PM
Hi Keklas,
I used to be a Christian but I'm better now... (sorry, joke, no offense intended).
Interestingly I became a Christian after being a gamer for several years. So on a camp, I was very interested to hear that one of the topics was going to be Role-Playing Games. And some idiot got up and gave the usual Chick-like rant - 'cos he'd read this stuff in a book and heard such and such from a friend... He was a bit surprised to find rational, logical opposition to his viewpoint graemlins/file_23.gif
Over the years, my pastor occasionally tried to persuade me about the dangers of roleplaying:
"Players are sometimes unable to get out of character!" "Nope, never happened to anyone I know. Has anyone warned method actors? Poor Al Pacino..."
"I read again about a D&D player who committed suicide last month." "And I just read an article which showed the number of RPG-related suicides is less than the number of suicides of members of the American Lawn Tennis Association. Your point?"
(I must have been really unsufferable as a teenager!)
Thing was, my friend and pastor was also an inveterate Trekkie... and then I got LUG's Star Trek RPG... and that finally convinced him noone was going to mad or Satanic or whatever playing RPGs...
Funny thing, though. My pastor friend later relocated from Ireland to the good ol' U.S. of A. The first thing he showed me when we visited him was his gun collection...
To answer your question - as others have said, I think any straight political/negotiation type scenario, with the protagonists as obvious good guys, would be good for an initial scenario. Possibly a bit of violence depending on what you know of her and her tastes in fiction in that regard... Later on, you can introduce the moral ambiguity, no real good guys, "real-life" issues...
Hope this helps...
Anton
I used to be a Christian but I'm better now... (sorry, joke, no offense intended).
Interestingly I became a Christian after being a gamer for several years. So on a camp, I was very interested to hear that one of the topics was going to be Role-Playing Games. And some idiot got up and gave the usual Chick-like rant - 'cos he'd read this stuff in a book and heard such and such from a friend... He was a bit surprised to find rational, logical opposition to his viewpoint graemlins/file_23.gif
Over the years, my pastor occasionally tried to persuade me about the dangers of roleplaying:
"Players are sometimes unable to get out of character!" "Nope, never happened to anyone I know. Has anyone warned method actors? Poor Al Pacino..."
"I read again about a D&D player who committed suicide last month." "And I just read an article which showed the number of RPG-related suicides is less than the number of suicides of members of the American Lawn Tennis Association. Your point?"
(I must have been really unsufferable as a teenager!)
Thing was, my friend and pastor was also an inveterate Trekkie... and then I got LUG's Star Trek RPG... and that finally convinced him noone was going to mad or Satanic or whatever playing RPGs...
Funny thing, though. My pastor friend later relocated from Ireland to the good ol' U.S. of A. The first thing he showed me when we visited him was his gun collection...
To answer your question - as others have said, I think any straight political/negotiation type scenario, with the protagonists as obvious good guys, would be good for an initial scenario. Possibly a bit of violence depending on what you know of her and her tastes in fiction in that regard... Later on, you can introduce the moral ambiguity, no real good guys, "real-life" issues...
Hope this helps...
Anton
Keklas Rekobah
May 20th, 2003, 01:33 PM
Anton,
Good points.
I'm still a Christian and I enjoy Role-Playing Games. It's not an oil-and-water issue. I guess some folks are just down on fun. :rolleyes:
Good points.
I'm still a Christian and I enjoy Role-Playing Games. It's not an oil-and-water issue. I guess some folks are just down on fun. :rolleyes:
Jame
May 20th, 2003, 02:17 PM
Now, I'm not much for religion, but I'll live so long as it's not forced on me (if I ever have faith, it might as well be genuine). My advice would be to handle the sessions as you would any other of them, use your sense and have fun.
hirch duckfinder
May 21st, 2003, 06:15 AM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"... why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd." Mr. Duckfinder,
I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer your question. To me, a game is a game, religion is religion, and faith is faith. Problems arise when any two of these overlap.
Games and religion - People end up worshipping players and teams, while excluding or deriding anyone else who does not feel the same way (Go Arsenal!).
Games and Faith - The origin of religion; the politics of faith.
Religion and faith - Dogmatic, knee-jerk reactionism to anything that might be 'fun', especially if the church can not get a 'tithe' of the action.
Heck-fire! I can't even figure out why some T20 players look down on my friends and I for adhering to Classic Traveller!
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!" - A World War One song lyric.
"Let's all just get along and play nice!" - Mom. </font>[/QUOTE]-------thanks for your civil reply to my rant .
your points about the evil nature of arsenal are well received by this tottenham fan . :D :D graemlins/file_22.gif
seriously - you make good points . i just cant believe that in this world where we need to be so careful to understand others over staggeringly important issues , people in a position of moral authority can be so ignorant . very worrying .
still , we can only work to open eyes . even if it is against the tide .
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />"... why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd." Mr. Duckfinder,
I haven't the vaguest idea how to answer your question. To me, a game is a game, religion is religion, and faith is faith. Problems arise when any two of these overlap.
Games and religion - People end up worshipping players and teams, while excluding or deriding anyone else who does not feel the same way (Go Arsenal!).
Games and Faith - The origin of religion; the politics of faith.
Religion and faith - Dogmatic, knee-jerk reactionism to anything that might be 'fun', especially if the church can not get a 'tithe' of the action.
Heck-fire! I can't even figure out why some T20 players look down on my friends and I for adhering to Classic Traveller!
"Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!" - A World War One song lyric.
"Let's all just get along and play nice!" - Mom. </font>[/QUOTE]-------thanks for your civil reply to my rant .
your points about the evil nature of arsenal are well received by this tottenham fan . :D :D graemlins/file_22.gif
seriously - you make good points . i just cant believe that in this world where we need to be so careful to understand others over staggeringly important issues , people in a position of moral authority can be so ignorant . very worrying .
still , we can only work to open eyes . even if it is against the tide .
campbell
May 28th, 2003, 11:42 AM
http://www.mindspring.com/~ernestm/wt&d/index.html
found this link while surfing. the second issue has a rather nice take on violence in role playing games. there is also a link to Christian Gamer's Guild although the site seems to be having problems at the moment.
found this link while surfing. the second issue has a rather nice take on violence in role playing games. there is also a link to Christian Gamer's Guild although the site seems to be having problems at the moment.
Vargas
May 28th, 2003, 03:07 PM
Perhaps you could ask the minister if she (it was she right?) ever did any acting in school or pretended patently unreal things during childhood. Or ever knew anybody who did. (Hopefully no one came to a grisly end smile.gif )
From recent personal experience, I've found that there are some very careful/paranoid (it would depend on your personal assessment) Christians out there who are concerned/paranoid (same comment again) about opening themselves to evil influences, no matter how trivial they may appear. Their reasoning is not strictly based on logic because faith plays a critical, usually the most critical, role in the decisions they make and how they view the world.
Just a few thoughts from a Christian*
*That's right, Catholics are Christians also ;)
From recent personal experience, I've found that there are some very careful/paranoid (it would depend on your personal assessment) Christians out there who are concerned/paranoid (same comment again) about opening themselves to evil influences, no matter how trivial they may appear. Their reasoning is not strictly based on logic because faith plays a critical, usually the most critical, role in the decisions they make and how they view the world.
Just a few thoughts from a Christian*
*That's right, Catholics are Christians also ;)
Baron Saarthuran
May 29th, 2003, 05:00 AM
The late Pat Pulling, mother of a "D&D Suicide", formed BADD (Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons)(!) in the 80s, as she was absolutely convinced that it was all about Devil Worship, which is patently laughable, at best. The unlaughable part of it was that her son, Bink, killed himself the night after a D&D Game. Mrs. Pulling later found out through questioning the dungeon master that in his last game, Young Bink had a curse cast upon him, and the rest is history.
I say from reviewing the Statements of other people around Bink, He was an extremely disturbed individual, regardless of D&D... I say this because the week before his death, he scrawled "Life is Meaningless" on the blackboard at school, and , oh, he also Disemboweled the family cat and 20 (!) pet Rabbits... all while NOT playing D&D. Instead of looking at her son as a possible psychopath and trying to figure out how he got that way, She decided to blame something else besides her, hence she tried to sue TSR!
Pulling later went on to publish a "sourcebook" for law enforcement specifically for "Role Playing Game - Based Crimes" you can still get it, (if youre in law enforcement,) I believe...
Let me just say that in the sourcebook, Being the Dungeon Master is tatamount to being a Cult Leader! Also, for some reason, it had specific police interrogation questions about multiclassed characters... things that made it very obvious that Mrs. Pulling never bothered to do any real research on her crusade, just made the facts fit her delusion.
Now more than ever, it seems, some religious groups are actively seeking remake society in a manner that suits them. I hope that time will show the folly of such endeavors, or at least they can stay the heck out of other people's business for once... Freedom of religion is most definitely a Two-way street, What?
graemlins/omega.gif
I say from reviewing the Statements of other people around Bink, He was an extremely disturbed individual, regardless of D&D... I say this because the week before his death, he scrawled "Life is Meaningless" on the blackboard at school, and , oh, he also Disemboweled the family cat and 20 (!) pet Rabbits... all while NOT playing D&D. Instead of looking at her son as a possible psychopath and trying to figure out how he got that way, She decided to blame something else besides her, hence she tried to sue TSR!
Pulling later went on to publish a "sourcebook" for law enforcement specifically for "Role Playing Game - Based Crimes" you can still get it, (if youre in law enforcement,) I believe...
Let me just say that in the sourcebook, Being the Dungeon Master is tatamount to being a Cult Leader! Also, for some reason, it had specific police interrogation questions about multiclassed characters... things that made it very obvious that Mrs. Pulling never bothered to do any real research on her crusade, just made the facts fit her delusion.
Now more than ever, it seems, some religious groups are actively seeking remake society in a manner that suits them. I hope that time will show the folly of such endeavors, or at least they can stay the heck out of other people's business for once... Freedom of religion is most definitely a Two-way street, What?
graemlins/omega.gif
Keklas Rekobah
May 29th, 2003, 11:20 AM
Here's something that puzzles me about many of the Rabid Right: Why is it that you can know somebody their entire life, believing that they are as nice and intelligent as you all along, and then when you find out that they are into AD&D, Traveller, Poker, Beer, Dancing, Tattoo and body piercing, and anything else considered 'fun' or 'self-expression', do you suddenly consider that person an embodyment of evil, on par with child molesters, mass murderers, and drug addicts?
(*WHEW!* I'm glad I didn't do that all in one breath!)
What's so bad about fun and self-expression? Why must we all be in lock-step with each other over every aspect of our lives? Why do they believe that the rest of us need monitoring and sanction of our private practices and beliefs? What next, mind control by the Holy Inquisition?
(*WHEW!* I'm glad I didn't do that all in one breath!)
What's so bad about fun and self-expression? Why must we all be in lock-step with each other over every aspect of our lives? Why do they believe that the rest of us need monitoring and sanction of our private practices and beliefs? What next, mind control by the Holy Inquisition?
theSea
May 29th, 2003, 12:12 PM
Keklas Rekobah --
This is certianly not a situation limited to any particular political/religious group. It is endemic to humans in groups. In order to affirm one's choice of group it is often convenient to ascribe extreme negative characteristics to non-group members or members of alternate or competing groups... "I must be very good because These People(TM) are truely vile and a threat to my faith/race/political cause etc."
Combine that with most people's tendancy to fear what they don't understand and believe whatever pap is fed to them by The Powers That Be(TM) and you get a sad repetative fact of human nature.
As to Ms. Puller's particular irrational quest... as a mother who's just lost a child to suicide I'm sure it was much easier for her to deal with the notion that some sinister force had 'driven' her baby boy to off himself than accept the notion that her kid was just plain f'ed up. For starters the 'Satanic Cult' explanation absolves her of any responsibility as a parent.
Just like the parents who sued Judas Priest because their music was playing on the stereo when their sweet little ones did themselves in... <sarcasm>of course it was the heavy metal. The alcohol and LSD in their systems at the time of death certianly had nothing to do with it.</sarcasm>
For a good take on the whole 'Mazes & Monsters' thing you can do worse that to check this (http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/d_master.htm) out.
Just good old fashion human nature.
My cr0.02 - YMMV
--Michael
This is certianly not a situation limited to any particular political/religious group. It is endemic to humans in groups. In order to affirm one's choice of group it is often convenient to ascribe extreme negative characteristics to non-group members or members of alternate or competing groups... "I must be very good because These People(TM) are truely vile and a threat to my faith/race/political cause etc."
Combine that with most people's tendancy to fear what they don't understand and believe whatever pap is fed to them by The Powers That Be(TM) and you get a sad repetative fact of human nature.
As to Ms. Puller's particular irrational quest... as a mother who's just lost a child to suicide I'm sure it was much easier for her to deal with the notion that some sinister force had 'driven' her baby boy to off himself than accept the notion that her kid was just plain f'ed up. For starters the 'Satanic Cult' explanation absolves her of any responsibility as a parent.
Just like the parents who sued Judas Priest because their music was playing on the stereo when their sweet little ones did themselves in... <sarcasm>of course it was the heavy metal. The alcohol and LSD in their systems at the time of death certianly had nothing to do with it.</sarcasm>
For a good take on the whole 'Mazes & Monsters' thing you can do worse that to check this (http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/tavspecs/maint/d_master.htm) out.
Just good old fashion human nature.
My cr0.02 - YMMV
--Michael
kafka47
May 29th, 2003, 01:01 PM
Take the minister to play Odyssey, the free PDF game on this website, it allows lots of potential for good values to be expressed plus allows players to move along quickly toward a successful resolution.
It ought to be the role of the referee that would provide a game in which the players need not have a hack & slack, but variety, so maybe try Murder on Arctrus Station from the CT Adventures book, it is more Agatha Christie than Darmond Hammond.
It ought to be the role of the referee that would provide a game in which the players need not have a hack & slack, but variety, so maybe try Murder on Arctrus Station from the CT Adventures book, it is more Agatha Christie than Darmond Hammond.
Keklas Rekobah
May 29th, 2003, 01:25 PM
Thanx, people. A few responses...
... My previous post was a rant. I apologize to those who may have been offended by it - although I am not sorry for posting it (no regrets).
... I've downloaded Odyssey. Nicely written - for T20! I run CT, with house mods. Still converting.
... I was at Michigan State University when the "Egbert Incident" occurred. This event and the publicity that surrounded it were what drew me in to the gaming club at MSU called "Brass Dragon". I ended up as the first Faculty/Staff Advisor (FCA) for the club. The need for FCA's was mandated by the reaction of MSU's administration to the "Egbert Incident". This event also cause a campus-wide retrofit of limited access measures to the steam tunnels under MSU.
... My previous post was a rant. I apologize to those who may have been offended by it - although I am not sorry for posting it (no regrets).
... I've downloaded Odyssey. Nicely written - for T20! I run CT, with house mods. Still converting.
... I was at Michigan State University when the "Egbert Incident" occurred. This event and the publicity that surrounded it were what drew me in to the gaming club at MSU called "Brass Dragon". I ended up as the first Faculty/Staff Advisor (FCA) for the club. The need for FCA's was mandated by the reaction of MSU's administration to the "Egbert Incident". This event also cause a campus-wide retrofit of limited access measures to the steam tunnels under MSU.
jzeitlin
May 29th, 2003, 09:17 PM
Just a few general comments on the topic...
When I find myself on the periphery - or directly involved, for that matter - in one of those "RP is EEEEEEEEEVILE!" discussions, I try to defuse it through a rational approach.
First, I try to avoid discussing them in terms of genre - "Fantasy" and "Science Fiction" are very nasty hot-button words with many of that crowd, and I think it's ultimately for the same basic reason that RP is*.
I present RP as problem solving, not playing: The participants (not players) are presented with a scenario, resources, and a goal, and they must find a way to achieve that goal with the available resources.
When/if they start in with the "devil worship" malarkey, I point out that the beings in question are generally portrayed as evil, indicating that the the so-called "Christian" cultural assumptions re: good and evil are in effect. For participants to portray believers in these beings is akin to asking them to solve the problem from the other person's point of view - essentially, to ask them to look at the likely motivation of that person, and think about the other side of the question - the side that they will naturally want to argue against. By "working the problem" from the other side, they gain a better understanding of the problem, and will ultimately allow them to present a stronger argument in favor of their side of the question.
But what about those dice? No situation in real life is entirely predictable; the use of the dice is simply a fair way of ensuring that the unpredictability isn't biased.
Magic? Spells? Curses? Different resources that are available. Encourages the participants to "think outside the box", to look for unconventional solutions if conventional ones aren't an option, or aren't effective. They're tools, and within the context of the scenario, can be used properly or improperly. The participant's own moral compass is what should guide their use; the availability of a "magic missile" is no different, fundamentally, than the availability of a gun would be in real life. And just as the gun can be used properly and safely, or it can be misused, so too the "magic missile" - and similarly with any other resource.
But what about the game making someone crazy (e.g., the cases cited in this thread)? With all due respect, problem solving in this realm is no different than problem solving in a counselling session or therapy or social groups or playing house or playing cowboys and indians or cops and robbers. If what happens in this realm is going to adversely affect the participant, it's generally a sign that the participant is troubled outside of this realm, and needs help. Correlation is not causation, and there is a natural tendency to notice the most outré factors in an apparent incident.
Is the system all about violence? No. It's about problem solving. But there are people who see things in very simplistic ways, and those people may set up scenarios so that there are no solutions that avoid violence - but that is a function of the people involved, not of the system itself. If this is a concern, it is necessary to choose carefully who will participate, and in what roles.
>>> If you've gotten this far, chances are you've found a receptive audience; the closed-minded usually don't get beyond the first question. With a receptive audience, you can start discussing issues such as questioning assumptions, free thought, moral dilemmae, and so on, and you can also offer to run them through some one-on-one scenarios with some basic rules to illustrate. Should they agree to participate in a scenario, you can and should have one that is tailored to their "moral compass", but one which does not have an immediately obvious single best solution.
Although it may seem from my explanations above that you are minimizing the issues that appear to be causing the most concern, don't actually minimize them - instead, show that they are legitimate concerns, but not concerns about the game, but about the people instead. The game can be used for good or for ill; what matters is the people involved. Ultimately, the game can be introduced not only as mentally-stimulating recreation, but as a teaching tool as well, encouraging problem solving in several modes.
As an added bonus, if the game is accepted, one can introduce some of the genre literature as well, portraying it as stories about people who are presented with these kinds of scenarios, and who have found their own solutions, and worked their way through their own moral dilemmae.
=-=-=-=-=-
* That reason amounts to "because it encourages people to think, and to question their assumptions". If I detect that this is in fact the motivating attitude, I bail pronto - you can't argue with a closed mind.
graemlins/omega.gif
When I find myself on the periphery - or directly involved, for that matter - in one of those "RP is EEEEEEEEEVILE!" discussions, I try to defuse it through a rational approach.
First, I try to avoid discussing them in terms of genre - "Fantasy" and "Science Fiction" are very nasty hot-button words with many of that crowd, and I think it's ultimately for the same basic reason that RP is*.
I present RP as problem solving, not playing: The participants (not players) are presented with a scenario, resources, and a goal, and they must find a way to achieve that goal with the available resources.
When/if they start in with the "devil worship" malarkey, I point out that the beings in question are generally portrayed as evil, indicating that the the so-called "Christian" cultural assumptions re: good and evil are in effect. For participants to portray believers in these beings is akin to asking them to solve the problem from the other person's point of view - essentially, to ask them to look at the likely motivation of that person, and think about the other side of the question - the side that they will naturally want to argue against. By "working the problem" from the other side, they gain a better understanding of the problem, and will ultimately allow them to present a stronger argument in favor of their side of the question.
But what about those dice? No situation in real life is entirely predictable; the use of the dice is simply a fair way of ensuring that the unpredictability isn't biased.
Magic? Spells? Curses? Different resources that are available. Encourages the participants to "think outside the box", to look for unconventional solutions if conventional ones aren't an option, or aren't effective. They're tools, and within the context of the scenario, can be used properly or improperly. The participant's own moral compass is what should guide their use; the availability of a "magic missile" is no different, fundamentally, than the availability of a gun would be in real life. And just as the gun can be used properly and safely, or it can be misused, so too the "magic missile" - and similarly with any other resource.
But what about the game making someone crazy (e.g., the cases cited in this thread)? With all due respect, problem solving in this realm is no different than problem solving in a counselling session or therapy or social groups or playing house or playing cowboys and indians or cops and robbers. If what happens in this realm is going to adversely affect the participant, it's generally a sign that the participant is troubled outside of this realm, and needs help. Correlation is not causation, and there is a natural tendency to notice the most outré factors in an apparent incident.
Is the system all about violence? No. It's about problem solving. But there are people who see things in very simplistic ways, and those people may set up scenarios so that there are no solutions that avoid violence - but that is a function of the people involved, not of the system itself. If this is a concern, it is necessary to choose carefully who will participate, and in what roles.
>>> If you've gotten this far, chances are you've found a receptive audience; the closed-minded usually don't get beyond the first question. With a receptive audience, you can start discussing issues such as questioning assumptions, free thought, moral dilemmae, and so on, and you can also offer to run them through some one-on-one scenarios with some basic rules to illustrate. Should they agree to participate in a scenario, you can and should have one that is tailored to their "moral compass", but one which does not have an immediately obvious single best solution.
Although it may seem from my explanations above that you are minimizing the issues that appear to be causing the most concern, don't actually minimize them - instead, show that they are legitimate concerns, but not concerns about the game, but about the people instead. The game can be used for good or for ill; what matters is the people involved. Ultimately, the game can be introduced not only as mentally-stimulating recreation, but as a teaching tool as well, encouraging problem solving in several modes.
As an added bonus, if the game is accepted, one can introduce some of the genre literature as well, portraying it as stories about people who are presented with these kinds of scenarios, and who have found their own solutions, and worked their way through their own moral dilemmae.
=-=-=-=-=-
* That reason amounts to "because it encourages people to think, and to question their assumptions". If I detect that this is in fact the motivating attitude, I bail pronto - you can't argue with a closed mind.
graemlins/omega.gif
Vargas
May 29th, 2003, 10:57 PM
Outstanding Sir, simply outstanding. An extremely wel thought out, welll written response.
campbell
May 30th, 2003, 03:50 AM
Outstanding Sir, simply outstanding. An extremely wel thought out, welll written response that is the mistake that you and every player on the side of games are not evil is making you are responding to a situation with rational thought and logic where the other side is armed with emotion.
chances are you can't change their inbuilt beliefs and in trying you are only causing them to dig in deeper. your opinion their opinion, we must agree to disagree.
why judge them because they have a different viewpoint then you do
chances are you can't change their inbuilt beliefs and in trying you are only causing them to dig in deeper. your opinion their opinion, we must agree to disagree.
why judge them because they have a different viewpoint then you do
womble
May 30th, 2003, 09:49 AM
Campbell said:
"...mistake that you and every player on the side of games are not evil is making you are responding to a situation with rational thought and logic where the other side is armed with emotion.
"...chances are you can't change their inbuilt beliefs and in trying you are only causing them to dig in deeper..." However, there's a small chance you can change their beliefs about roleplaying because they are not "inbuilt" they're learned and can be refuted. If you have a motivation to do so (a compadre you'd like to include in the fun f'rex, or the guardian thereof), you're losing nothing by trying except the time spent. Zero cooperation don't get any less...
"...mistake that you and every player on the side of games are not evil is making you are responding to a situation with rational thought and logic where the other side is armed with emotion.
"...chances are you can't change their inbuilt beliefs and in trying you are only causing them to dig in deeper..." However, there's a small chance you can change their beliefs about roleplaying because they are not "inbuilt" they're learned and can be refuted. If you have a motivation to do so (a compadre you'd like to include in the fun f'rex, or the guardian thereof), you're losing nothing by trying except the time spent. Zero cooperation don't get any less...
campbell
May 30th, 2003, 10:42 AM
then the best way is not by arguing but by showing them. invite the compadre to watch you playing and if its for them then they can decide for themselves. and alternativly ask them to pray about it. one of the best bits for me in the new testament is when paul is shown in a dream a vast banquet of forbidden (for a jew) foods and told to eat. his response is he cant and he is then told that what he eats isnt going to affect his soul.
Rover
May 30th, 2003, 11:57 AM
Althogh it's not about traveller, I strongly reccomend you look at http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp
You will shake your head in disbelife!
And then for a laugh read.
http://www.rpglibrary.org/inspiration/darkdungeons/intro.html
It gives a Mystery Science 3000 spin on the first link. Be sure keep clicking next page to read it all.
You will shake your head in disbelife!
And then for a laugh read.
http://www.rpglibrary.org/inspiration/darkdungeons/intro.html
It gives a Mystery Science 3000 spin on the first link. Be sure keep clicking next page to read it all.
Keklas Rekobah
May 30th, 2003, 02:11 PM
I don't know who first uttered this quote, but it is well worth remembering:
Reason alone cannot be used to remove prejudice from man, for it is not reason alone that places prejudice within man.Prejudice is most common among those with limited imagination and creative ability. Therefore, it is inherently more common among non-creative people who consistantly have difficulty trying to connect with creative people.
I've said this before and I'll say it again...
WHERE THE SMEG IS MY SMEGGIN PIZZA?! Dominion's doesn't deliver to this subsector anymore, or what? Aren't my Imperial credits good enough? What the smeg?
Thank you.
Reason alone cannot be used to remove prejudice from man, for it is not reason alone that places prejudice within man.Prejudice is most common among those with limited imagination and creative ability. Therefore, it is inherently more common among non-creative people who consistantly have difficulty trying to connect with creative people.
I've said this before and I'll say it again...
WHERE THE SMEG IS MY SMEGGIN PIZZA?! Dominion's doesn't deliver to this subsector anymore, or what? Aren't my Imperial credits good enough? What the smeg?
Thank you.
GBoyett
May 30th, 2003, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
sorry , this is not going to help your situation at all but i am curious ; why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd . its a game . ( people that irrational are worrying , who knows where they will turn their blind bigotry next ) . The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
Do I believe there is a potential problem? Yes. If you accept the notion that certain imagery, both audio and visual, can project negative sterotypes and hate then what messages will be presented in an activity that requires the players to "act" out?
This view is backed by events in the past and present. Many have used the media to project various hateful memes*, including equating some groups as vermin and subhuman. Probaly the sickest is when these memes are taught in schools and summer camps.+
* Memes - a cognitive or behavioral pattern that can be transmitted from one person to another. Though the above definition is from GURPS: Transhuman Space, memetics, the study of memes propagation, is a growing field.
* The last is what is happening to the Palistinian children. They are taught Jews use the blood of babies for some of thier rituals. At summer camps they are trained to be homicide bombers and to view past ones as heros. They even had trading cards. :eek: graemlins/file_28.gif :(
sorry , this is not going to help your situation at all but i am curious ; why on earth do these people see anything wrong with rpgs? from this side of the water this seems absurd . its a game . ( people that irrational are worrying , who knows where they will turn their blind bigotry next ) . The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
Do I believe there is a potential problem? Yes. If you accept the notion that certain imagery, both audio and visual, can project negative sterotypes and hate then what messages will be presented in an activity that requires the players to "act" out?
This view is backed by events in the past and present. Many have used the media to project various hateful memes*, including equating some groups as vermin and subhuman. Probaly the sickest is when these memes are taught in schools and summer camps.+
* Memes - a cognitive or behavioral pattern that can be transmitted from one person to another. Though the above definition is from GURPS: Transhuman Space, memetics, the study of memes propagation, is a growing field.
* The last is what is happening to the Palistinian children. They are taught Jews use the blood of babies for some of thier rituals. At summer camps they are trained to be homicide bombers and to view past ones as heros. They even had trading cards. :eek: graemlins/file_28.gif :(
Zutroi
June 4th, 2003, 12:13 AM
================================================
The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
===============================================
2 observations:
#1, in the experience of myself and every long-term gamer I know, the VAST majority of D&D games are good v. evil, with the players representing good! What's the Freakin Problem!!
#2 "A society that burns books will next burn people." A shot of 15 year old single malt to the first person to identify the speaker.
Hint - Think 1940's
The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
===============================================
2 observations:
#1, in the experience of myself and every long-term gamer I know, the VAST majority of D&D games are good v. evil, with the players representing good! What's the Freakin Problem!!
#2 "A society that burns books will next burn people." A shot of 15 year old single malt to the first person to identify the speaker.
Hint - Think 1940's
FANTASYFAN1968
June 15th, 2003, 01:25 AM
Lots of good points in this thread. I'd like to point out, as someone who is only now examining his own personal beliefs after years of being told what I "had" to believe, that there are some folks out there who will follow the "party line" on any given subject simply because someone they trust has told them it's the Truth. Sadly, some of these people will never be convinced otherwise, as it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself.
Keklas Rekobah
June 16th, 2003, 04:08 PM
"... it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself."- LCDR J.R. Sinclair III, IMPINSNAV
"All lies in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."- P. Simon, Bard & Philosopher
Yes, it's true. I think the modern psychobabble-ists call it "Comfort Zoning." It's much easier to believe a simple lie than a complicated truth (Hey! Another worthwhile quote!). Especially when the lie re-inforces one's own suspicions or provides an excuse for avoiding anything different.
Now I'm running into the same thing from the other side - gamers who refuse to join in an RPG with "... any of those religious nuts."
True, swearing and 'rough language' would be discouraged; yes, graphic descriptions of an opponent's death would be less detailed; and certainly, it must be made clear when one player is addressing another player en personna (character-to-character) or player-to-player.
Just as I would expect an evangelist to avoid handing out Chik Tracs and mounting a soapbox to rail against simulated violence and death during a game session, so would I also expect non-evangelicals to do their part to keep the peace, as well. Making the whole effort geared toward...
"The most fun for the most players while playing Traveller!"With diverse backgrounds and points of view, it becomes more interesting and avoids the monotony of players whose perspectives on the universe are all the same.
"All lies in jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."- P. Simon, Bard & Philosopher
Yes, it's true. I think the modern psychobabble-ists call it "Comfort Zoning." It's much easier to believe a simple lie than a complicated truth (Hey! Another worthwhile quote!). Especially when the lie re-inforces one's own suspicions or provides an excuse for avoiding anything different.
Now I'm running into the same thing from the other side - gamers who refuse to join in an RPG with "... any of those religious nuts."
True, swearing and 'rough language' would be discouraged; yes, graphic descriptions of an opponent's death would be less detailed; and certainly, it must be made clear when one player is addressing another player en personna (character-to-character) or player-to-player.
Just as I would expect an evangelist to avoid handing out Chik Tracs and mounting a soapbox to rail against simulated violence and death during a game session, so would I also expect non-evangelicals to do their part to keep the peace, as well. Making the whole effort geared toward...
"The most fun for the most players while playing Traveller!"With diverse backgrounds and points of view, it becomes more interesting and avoids the monotony of players whose perspectives on the universe are all the same.
mad13142000
June 16th, 2003, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by LCDR J. R. Sinclair III:
I'd like to point out, as someone who is only now examining his own personal beliefs after years of being told what I "had" to believe, that there are some folks out there who will follow the "party line" on any given subject simply because someone they trust has told them it's the Truth. Sadly, some of these people will never be convinced otherwise, as it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself. But I thought that the whole point of Christ's teaching was that a relationship with God is a personal one, unfettered by trapings of the temple. I mean, the whole
'Upon this rock'
thing was all about not needing to build a huge church/cathedral/temple/mosque...
to be able to say hi to God. As someone to have survived Tulsa, I have a slight problem with those who miss the forest for the trees. I've met many who would be happy to burn books, hurt people, do ANYTHING to enforce the supremacy of their beliefs. Current political troubles in the Mid-East prove this...Problem is they are totally missing what was actually said or done to create the religion they profess in the beginning. Jew, Christian, and Muslum all believe in the same God, all have points in their literature to the effect of peace is the way to salvation, but all tend to view the individual quotes to justify killing or oppresion of the oposition, or even something as trivial as playing a game...
oh well....
-MADDog
I'd like to point out, as someone who is only now examining his own personal beliefs after years of being told what I "had" to believe, that there are some folks out there who will follow the "party line" on any given subject simply because someone they trust has told them it's the Truth. Sadly, some of these people will never be convinced otherwise, as it is often easier to be told what to think than to make decisions for oneself. But I thought that the whole point of Christ's teaching was that a relationship with God is a personal one, unfettered by trapings of the temple. I mean, the whole
'Upon this rock'
thing was all about not needing to build a huge church/cathedral/temple/mosque...
to be able to say hi to God. As someone to have survived Tulsa, I have a slight problem with those who miss the forest for the trees. I've met many who would be happy to burn books, hurt people, do ANYTHING to enforce the supremacy of their beliefs. Current political troubles in the Mid-East prove this...Problem is they are totally missing what was actually said or done to create the religion they profess in the beginning. Jew, Christian, and Muslum all believe in the same God, all have points in their literature to the effect of peace is the way to salvation, but all tend to view the individual quotes to justify killing or oppresion of the oposition, or even something as trivial as playing a game...
oh well....
-MADDog
Keklas Rekobah
June 16th, 2003, 08:02 PM
Try telling a person who feeds his or her family from the proceeds of a two-hour feelgood session every seventh morning that the trappings of religion are un-necessary due to the fact that everyone is entitled to his or her own personal relationship with a Higher Power (or not).
(Wow. All in one breath, and an ecumenical ending, too!)
Anybody have a preacher profession template for Traveller, as per the "Shephard" character from the "Firefly" TV series? Thanx.
(Wow. All in one breath, and an ecumenical ending, too!)
Anybody have a preacher profession template for Traveller, as per the "Shephard" character from the "Firefly" TV series? Thanx.
Mythmere
June 16th, 2003, 08:45 PM
For T20, a preacher would probably be a professional, using the entertainer rules to determine speaking ability/effects. That would be for "preaching." Also, the academic class would be workable for someone more focused on theology than on delivering the word. But I think the professional would be the more workable class in an adventuring setting.
Baron Saarthuran
June 17th, 2003, 01:57 AM
This may be trite of me, My Lords... but isn't organized religion the most played RPG in the world? It seems to be OK for Born Agains and other types to talk about Demons and Devils and how thier evil is on the land... why is it so bad to do the same in a (sorry, way more fun and not quite as scary) context of RPGs? Is their image of such things more acceptable for some reason? I had a history teacher that sure was psyched when I brought in a copy of "Dieties and Demigods" to class... a very refreshing reaction indeed...
The people that have (and try to generate) such a negative view of this hobby simply do not know what they are talking about.
Perhaps its the wandering scout in me, but I have yet to run across any Real Live Demons, Leprechauns, Goblins, Vampires, Etc. in my much vaunted travels. I think they mean it in an allegorical sense, hopefully. My knee jerk reaction topeople that talk seriously of such things is to put a straightjacket on them, but alas, that is my personal view.
Originally Posted by George Boyett, Archduke of the Reactionary Militia
The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
Do I believe there is a potential problem? Yes. If you accept the notion that certain imagery, both audio and visual, can project negative sterotypes and hate then what messages will be presented in an activity that requires the players to "act" out?
This view is backed by events in the past and present. Many have used the media to project various hateful memes*, including equating some groups as vermin and subhuman. Probaly the sickest is when these memes are taught in schools and summer camps.+
* Memes - a cognitive or behavioral pattern that can be transmitted from one person to another. Though the above definition is from GURPS: Transhuman Space, memetics, the study of memes propagation, is a growing field.
* The last is what is happening to the Palistinian children. They are taught Jews use the blood of babies for some of thier rituals. At summer camps they are trained to be homicide bombers and to view past ones as heros. They even had trading cards.
So what's better? A small part of the population being desensitized by wicked gaming products, or a vast majority watching Brittany shake her num nums?
People that can be swayed into "amoral" action by such things as RPGs and Comics do not have a firm grip on sanity or reality in the first place. The issue is Mental Illness in that case, not RPGs. Don't burn the kid's books (I had a friend that this happened to, really, he turned out real normal...(Sarcasm)) Take him to a Doctor.
There IS indeed a potential problem when children are not taught by thier parents to be able to discern Reality from Make Believe. I wish that people would stop blaming the products (that they willingly buy) for thier sloppy and inattentive parenting skills...
As to this "Memes" business, Lord George, its called brainwashing, something which just doesn't happen <GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ALL ITS ARMAMENTS> in the real world as effectively as most people think. There are precedents, yes, but they are <DONALD RUMSFELD IS THE KINDEST MAN ALIVE> most often finite in thier scope of power. Blast! Why do I keep getting these confounded headaches?
Is the Knife-In-The-Teeth Arab Barbarian a meme too? Interesting that you bring up summer camp, My nephew just came back from one (he is ten) and he returned with many interesting political statements about current events and our current enemies... His mother must have inadvertently sent him to Hitler Youth Summer Camp or something...
Training to be a suicide bomber is "normal" for that culture of deperation. (the mideast in general) Its the same line of thought that propels our youngsters into the service and (in the old days, at least) into body bags. Funny how humans are the same when the trappings are removed. I even have "Operation Desert Storm" Trading Cards on my desk... (George Bush the Elder is my favorite, of course)
I can only hope that this perception of how better we Americans are than the rest of humaniti will be dispelled soon...
graemlins/omega.gif
The people that have (and try to generate) such a negative view of this hobby simply do not know what they are talking about.
Perhaps its the wandering scout in me, but I have yet to run across any Real Live Demons, Leprechauns, Goblins, Vampires, Etc. in my much vaunted travels. I think they mean it in an allegorical sense, hopefully. My knee jerk reaction topeople that talk seriously of such things is to put a straightjacket on them, but alas, that is my personal view.
Originally Posted by George Boyett, Archduke of the Reactionary Militia
The problem stem from D&D's use of magic, demons, and immoral actions like rape, pillage, and murder. Besides the prohibitions on magic, fortune telling and demon worship there is the concern about desensitizing and acceptance of those actions. It is similar to the issue about the effects of violent video games, movies, and music on. It just has a strong spiritual angle.
Do I believe there is a potential problem? Yes. If you accept the notion that certain imagery, both audio and visual, can project negative sterotypes and hate then what messages will be presented in an activity that requires the players to "act" out?
This view is backed by events in the past and present. Many have used the media to project various hateful memes*, including equating some groups as vermin and subhuman. Probaly the sickest is when these memes are taught in schools and summer camps.+
* Memes - a cognitive or behavioral pattern that can be transmitted from one person to another. Though the above definition is from GURPS: Transhuman Space, memetics, the study of memes propagation, is a growing field.
* The last is what is happening to the Palistinian children. They are taught Jews use the blood of babies for some of thier rituals. At summer camps they are trained to be homicide bombers and to view past ones as heros. They even had trading cards.
So what's better? A small part of the population being desensitized by wicked gaming products, or a vast majority watching Brittany shake her num nums?
People that can be swayed into "amoral" action by such things as RPGs and Comics do not have a firm grip on sanity or reality in the first place. The issue is Mental Illness in that case, not RPGs. Don't burn the kid's books (I had a friend that this happened to, really, he turned out real normal...(Sarcasm)) Take him to a Doctor.
There IS indeed a potential problem when children are not taught by thier parents to be able to discern Reality from Make Believe. I wish that people would stop blaming the products (that they willingly buy) for thier sloppy and inattentive parenting skills...
As to this "Memes" business, Lord George, its called brainwashing, something which just doesn't happen <GOD BLESS AMERICA AND ALL ITS ARMAMENTS> in the real world as effectively as most people think. There are precedents, yes, but they are <DONALD RUMSFELD IS THE KINDEST MAN ALIVE> most often finite in thier scope of power. Blast! Why do I keep getting these confounded headaches?
Is the Knife-In-The-Teeth Arab Barbarian a meme too? Interesting that you bring up summer camp, My nephew just came back from one (he is ten) and he returned with many interesting political statements about current events and our current enemies... His mother must have inadvertently sent him to Hitler Youth Summer Camp or something...
Training to be a suicide bomber is "normal" for that culture of deperation. (the mideast in general) Its the same line of thought that propels our youngsters into the service and (in the old days, at least) into body bags. Funny how humans are the same when the trappings are removed. I even have "Operation Desert Storm" Trading Cards on my desk... (George Bush the Elder is my favorite, of course)
I can only hope that this perception of how better we Americans are than the rest of humaniti will be dispelled soon...
graemlins/omega.gif
Falkayn
June 17th, 2003, 08:44 AM
Originally posted by MADDog:
But I thought that the whole point of Christ's teaching was that a relationship with God is a personal one, unfettered by trapings of the temple. I mean, the whole
'Upon this rock'
thing was all about not needing to build a huge church/cathedral/temple/mosque...
to be able to say hi to God.I've stayed away from this discussion because I'm aware that even amongst Christians, beliefs differ with regard to this sort of thing, but I'd like to stick up for 'organised religion' (at least the Christian kind) for a minute. smile.gif
The New Testament is full of references to the importance of meeting together as believers - to encourage each other, pray for each other, disciple each other, and just help one another out. It also talks extensively about the way Jesus gives different people grace to perform different roles in the church (apostles, pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists), how to raise money for worthwhile causes, and how to lead a congregation. So it seems fairly 'official' that we should be organised - New testament churches were often huge, with thousands of people attending them.
Now personally, as someone who is committed to attendance at a local church, I find that my regular commitment helps me maintain my personal walk with God. Being part of the body of Christ, being one of his sheep, means being in fellowship with other believers. Sometimes that's inconvenient, sometimes it's a royal pain, and sometimes I don't make it to church - but I am part of that local body of believers, and that helps me - a lot.
Also, consider this: If Jesus' main point was a personal relationship with God through himself, then why did he send out his 12 disciples and the 'seventy-two' to preach on his behalf?
I think it was because His message was what was important, not just his person. That's why the church was always supposed to survive his death as an organised group, not just a bunch of individual followers.
About roleplaying: I really enjoy roleplaying and started it way before I became a Christian, but over the years I have had a few friends go weird due in no small part to their roleplaying (and often due to drugs, depression, etc. too). I disagree with 99% of what the critics of roleplaying say, but I would not get a friend into roleplaying without encouraging them to not getting too lost in a character, situation or event - at the end of the day it is a game, and having FUN is the point.
But I thought that the whole point of Christ's teaching was that a relationship with God is a personal one, unfettered by trapings of the temple. I mean, the whole
'Upon this rock'
thing was all about not needing to build a huge church/cathedral/temple/mosque...
to be able to say hi to God.I've stayed away from this discussion because I'm aware that even amongst Christians, beliefs differ with regard to this sort of thing, but I'd like to stick up for 'organised religion' (at least the Christian kind) for a minute. smile.gif
The New Testament is full of references to the importance of meeting together as believers - to encourage each other, pray for each other, disciple each other, and just help one another out. It also talks extensively about the way Jesus gives different people grace to perform different roles in the church (apostles, pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists), how to raise money for worthwhile causes, and how to lead a congregation. So it seems fairly 'official' that we should be organised - New testament churches were often huge, with thousands of people attending them.
Now personally, as someone who is committed to attendance at a local church, I find that my regular commitment helps me maintain my personal walk with God. Being part of the body of Christ, being one of his sheep, means being in fellowship with other believers. Sometimes that's inconvenient, sometimes it's a royal pain, and sometimes I don't make it to church - but I am part of that local body of believers, and that helps me - a lot.
Also, consider this: If Jesus' main point was a personal relationship with God through himself, then why did he send out his 12 disciples and the 'seventy-two' to preach on his behalf?
I think it was because His message was what was important, not just his person. That's why the church was always supposed to survive his death as an organised group, not just a bunch of individual followers.
About roleplaying: I really enjoy roleplaying and started it way before I became a Christian, but over the years I have had a few friends go weird due in no small part to their roleplaying (and often due to drugs, depression, etc. too). I disagree with 99% of what the critics of roleplaying say, but I would not get a friend into roleplaying without encouraging them to not getting too lost in a character, situation or event - at the end of the day it is a game, and having FUN is the point.
Jame
June 17th, 2003, 09:54 AM
What can I say aside from what I've said already? But I'd like to pose a question: how would you portray a religion when you know one of your players is anti-religion or atheist, and another is deeply religious?
kafka47
June 17th, 2003, 10:12 AM
Jame:
Belief structures have co-existed for thousands of years. The athetist viewpoint is grounded in a belief in something, even science to a certain degree is about faith that the laws we construct for explaining the universe have universal applicability.
Therefore, ask the player in the spirit of role playing can we not see how historical beliefs have moved entire peoples and influenced world events. However, irrational the belief system may be, there have been an equal number appeals to Science - trust a person who has lived in a country of Scientific Socialism (eg. Marxism-Leninism) to tell you that science can be abused too.
Rather, societies are a product of a struggle between Ideology and Culture, Ideology (being the cold progression of science or rationality) and Culture (the traditions and beliefs that define a people) finding the balance or equilibrium is the essence society.
Belief structures have co-existed for thousands of years. The athetist viewpoint is grounded in a belief in something, even science to a certain degree is about faith that the laws we construct for explaining the universe have universal applicability.
Therefore, ask the player in the spirit of role playing can we not see how historical beliefs have moved entire peoples and influenced world events. However, irrational the belief system may be, there have been an equal number appeals to Science - trust a person who has lived in a country of Scientific Socialism (eg. Marxism-Leninism) to tell you that science can be abused too.
Rather, societies are a product of a struggle between Ideology and Culture, Ideology (being the cold progression of science or rationality) and Culture (the traditions and beliefs that define a people) finding the balance or equilibrium is the essence society.
Jame
June 17th, 2003, 10:41 AM
That's not what I meant. I'll go back and edit the other post.
Keklas Rekobah
June 17th, 2003, 01:03 PM
"How would you portray a religion when you know one of your players is anti-religion or atheist, and another is deeply religious?"- Jame
The active expression and portrayal of any religion IMTU would be based on a thesis presented by the player, and approved by the referee (me).
If one of the players is a deeply religious atheist, and wants to actively express his or her faith in my game, then the same rule would apply.
The same consideration would be given to players who want to portray:
- A Taoist monk who spouts philosophy, and who must have a flashback before he or she can beat the stuffing out of an opponent (Qang Xi Kane haut Vosburgh?).
- A Jesuit priest who holds mass every 24 hours, has the skills of Revolver-2 and Shotgun-1, and who insists on giving the last rites to each of the sophonts who failed to confess and convert (Father Harold "Dirty Harry" Callahan?).
- A Communist High Party member who goes through life practicing "From each according to their skill, to each according to their need." (Robni Hoodovic?).
- A Philosopher/Psychologist who must analyze each social situation, then practice the fine art of Social Engineering to achieve results (Sartski N. Hutch?).
If any of my players wants to prevent ANY religious belief from being expressed IMTU, then they may become frustrated that their wishes are not being met.
Remember, the Constitution of the United States of America (cue the trumpets) guarantees "Freedom to practice one's own form of Religious Expression", not "Freedom from someone else's form of Religious Expression."
Whew! Is it just me, or is it getting warm in here?
The active expression and portrayal of any religion IMTU would be based on a thesis presented by the player, and approved by the referee (me).
If one of the players is a deeply religious atheist, and wants to actively express his or her faith in my game, then the same rule would apply.
The same consideration would be given to players who want to portray:
- A Taoist monk who spouts philosophy, and who must have a flashback before he or she can beat the stuffing out of an opponent (Qang Xi Kane haut Vosburgh?).
- A Jesuit priest who holds mass every 24 hours, has the skills of Revolver-2 and Shotgun-1, and who insists on giving the last rites to each of the sophonts who failed to confess and convert (Father Harold "Dirty Harry" Callahan?).
- A Communist High Party member who goes through life practicing "From each according to their skill, to each according to their need." (Robni Hoodovic?).
- A Philosopher/Psychologist who must analyze each social situation, then practice the fine art of Social Engineering to achieve results (Sartski N. Hutch?).
If any of my players wants to prevent ANY religious belief from being expressed IMTU, then they may become frustrated that their wishes are not being met.
Remember, the Constitution of the United States of America (cue the trumpets) guarantees "Freedom to practice one's own form of Religious Expression", not "Freedom from someone else's form of Religious Expression."
Whew! Is it just me, or is it getting warm in here?
Mythmere
June 17th, 2003, 02:32 PM
I can only hope that this perception of how better we Americans are than the rest of humaniti will be dispelled soon... Baron Saarthuran
But hopefully you agree that our form of government is superior to that of the rest of the world (with the exception of the stable parliamentary democracies).
Also, our culture *is* superior to most of the rest of the world, if you ask me. Suicide bombing, for example, does not actually equate with watching Brittany shake her numnums, as you seem to suggest. Failing to distinguish barbarism and barbaric culture from civilization and civilized culture is the first step toward the evaporation of orderly regimes into the slaughterhouses of history. And please don't say that the US is barbaric because we engage in foreign wars - that's a sophomoric gambit that we shouldn't need to parse through.
Love your ship designs and models, but I suspect I dislike your politics - hopefully you won't hold that against me, just as I don't hold it against you.
But hopefully you agree that our form of government is superior to that of the rest of the world (with the exception of the stable parliamentary democracies).
Also, our culture *is* superior to most of the rest of the world, if you ask me. Suicide bombing, for example, does not actually equate with watching Brittany shake her numnums, as you seem to suggest. Failing to distinguish barbarism and barbaric culture from civilization and civilized culture is the first step toward the evaporation of orderly regimes into the slaughterhouses of history. And please don't say that the US is barbaric because we engage in foreign wars - that's a sophomoric gambit that we shouldn't need to parse through.
Love your ship designs and models, but I suspect I dislike your politics - hopefully you won't hold that against me, just as I don't hold it against you.
Keklas Rekobah
June 17th, 2003, 02:44 PM
Uhh... Mythmere?
How does your diatribe tie in with "Religion in Traveller?"
How does your diatribe tie in with "Religion in Traveller?"
Mythmere
June 17th, 2003, 02:46 PM
It's a response to Baron Saarthuran's post earlier. Quote's at the top.
Edited: Which, admittedly, has nothing to do with religion in Traveller. Oh, well.
Edited: Which, admittedly, has nothing to do with religion in Traveller. Oh, well.
mad13142000
June 17th, 2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Mythmere:
But hopefully you agree that our form of government is superior to that of the rest of the world (with the exception of the stable parliamentary democracies).
Also, our culture *is* superior to most of the rest of the world, if you ask me. Suicide bombing, for example, does not actually equate with watching Brittany shake her numnums, as you seem to suggest. Failing to distinguish barbarism and barbaric culture from civilization and civilized culture is the first step toward the evaporation of orderly regimes into the slaughterhouses of history. Well, not wanting to get off topic, but I don't believe ours is the best form of gov't ever. Ours is horibly broken, and needs to be fixed if our country is to survive. Did you notice that W has already raised more $$$ in ONE fundraiser than all the Democrats combined? So when he buys a new term will people stop telling me we are NOT a corporate oligarchy? Money buys the truth - 30% of americans believe Iraq used chemical weapons in the latest war...
Why is is barbarism when a palestinian with nothing, feels that the only way to make his point is to kill himself and take as many of the oppressors with him? Nobody ever calls Israel to the carpet for the women and children THEY kill in the name of freedom, no-one even calls them to prove Abu Doe was a terrorist when he gets wiped out by a strike...
I wasn't saying that the organization of religion was bad, just that it shouldn't be the end all of the purpose of religion - We are to spread the word of Christ, that there isn't one, 'Right' way to God, that each finds his or her own. Follow the golden rule and love conquers all... Not that if I don't believe what Pat Robertson says, then I'm not a 'good christian'...
Who is it to decide that my gaming is 'Satanic' and not good for me? 'Wally-world', when they decide not to carry Magic cards? Or should a Rev. call for a boycot of a hobby store that decides to carry RPG stuff??
I'm sorry, but the constitution DOES say that your religion ends at my space. Freedom to practice doesn't entail freedom to abuse children, or freedom to burn crosses, or anything else to negatively impact upon another's freedom...
once again, my .02Cr
-MADDog
But hopefully you agree that our form of government is superior to that of the rest of the world (with the exception of the stable parliamentary democracies).
Also, our culture *is* superior to most of the rest of the world, if you ask me. Suicide bombing, for example, does not actually equate with watching Brittany shake her numnums, as you seem to suggest. Failing to distinguish barbarism and barbaric culture from civilization and civilized culture is the first step toward the evaporation of orderly regimes into the slaughterhouses of history. Well, not wanting to get off topic, but I don't believe ours is the best form of gov't ever. Ours is horibly broken, and needs to be fixed if our country is to survive. Did you notice that W has already raised more $$$ in ONE fundraiser than all the Democrats combined? So when he buys a new term will people stop telling me we are NOT a corporate oligarchy? Money buys the truth - 30% of americans believe Iraq used chemical weapons in the latest war...
Why is is barbarism when a palestinian with nothing, feels that the only way to make his point is to kill himself and take as many of the oppressors with him? Nobody ever calls Israel to the carpet for the women and children THEY kill in the name of freedom, no-one even calls them to prove Abu Doe was a terrorist when he gets wiped out by a strike...
I wasn't saying that the organization of religion was bad, just that it shouldn't be the end all of the purpose of religion - We are to spread the word of Christ, that there isn't one, 'Right' way to God, that each finds his or her own. Follow the golden rule and love conquers all... Not that if I don't believe what Pat Robertson says, then I'm not a 'good christian'...
Who is it to decide that my gaming is 'Satanic' and not good for me? 'Wally-world', when they decide not to carry Magic cards? Or should a Rev. call for a boycot of a hobby store that decides to carry RPG stuff??
I'm sorry, but the constitution DOES say that your religion ends at my space. Freedom to practice doesn't entail freedom to abuse children, or freedom to burn crosses, or anything else to negatively impact upon another's freedom...
once again, my .02Cr
-MADDog
sandman
June 17th, 2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Mythmere:
[QUOTE]But hopefully you agree that our form of government is superior to that of the rest of the world (with the exception of the stable parliamentary democracies).
"Better" is such a relative word. Depending on the context and the value scale used to compare forms of government, a democracy can be *worse* than many.
It's just that for much of us in this forums, we share most of the values used for the comparison. So it is natural that Democracy is better *For US*
Also, our culture *is* superior to most of the rest of the world, if you ask me. One must always be carefull when comparing cultures. What is "Superior" for one isn't for another. We might not like/stand for what the other culture stand/do/say, but we can only say for sure that our culture is better *For US*. Saying "We've got the BEST culture there is" is a recipe for trouble, as many former colonies can demonstrate.
Suicide bombing, for example, does not actually equate with watching Brittany shake her numnums, as you seem to suggest. Nevertheless, she should be banned under the Geneva Convention :D ... sorry, joking... But to that I would just like to reply that desperate peoples tend to do it the "Quick & Dirty" way, more so if they have some beliefs they'll be "Better after that". Also, one must take care not to lump everybody into the same barrels, else it all comes down to US ALL GOOD, THEM ALL BADS, which isn't the One and Only truth.
Failing to distinguish barbarism and barbaric culture from civilization and civilized culture is the first step toward the evaporation of orderly regimes into the slaughterhouses of history. Unfortunately, most of the more Civilized cultures do what barbaric ones do, only more quickly, cleanly and efficiently. Civilization has destroyed more cultures, lives and ecosystems than anything in history. It's not because the killing/destroying isn't down with a machete and in plain sight that it's not killing and destroying. Civilization nearly put an end to the "Human Problems" when Krutchev nearly pushed the button.
Civilization isn't always "Good". When imposed (as in the Americas, Africa, Australia and the likes) by "Conquerer States", mostly Bringing Civilization to Barbarian for Their Own Good, it has destroyed many knowledge and cultures.
I know you weren't talking about that kind of "barbarians" but when I see "Our civilization is Better Than Theirs" I always have flashbacks of the mounds of knowledge that perished with the Incas, Aztecs, and other that were "Civilized" by destroying their cultures and knowledge, just because their civilization wasn't judged "Civilized" by the Northen Europeans at that time.
Love your ship designs and models, but I suspect I dislike your politics - hopefully you won't hold that against me, just as I don't hold it against you. Agreeing to Disagree is the first step to be able to call your culture *Great*. Accepting that others might judge things differently because of their personal beliefs is a necessary part of being able to live together on this dirtball.
Unfortunatly, many society don't understand that very well. Western civilization hasn't happened overnight so we're not going to see whole countries/population changing their ideas in a mere month.
EDIT:
Obligatory ObTrav:
Characters stranded on a out of the way world with a balkanized governments. They're in the middle of a little war where a groupe of states tries to "Civilize" the others "For Their Own Good".
Unfortunatly, the Characters landed on the "Wrong" side of the Civilized Camp. When their presence is known, they're viewd as Uncivilized and treat them so. (trying to civilize them, be it to crack open the eggs on the "Civilized Side" or any other things like eating habits, speech patterns/word used etc)
Edit 2: Whooooo... Post #400!!!!!! smile.gif
[QUOTE]But hopefully you agree that our form of government is superior to that of the rest of the world (with the exception of the stable parliamentary democracies).
"Better" is such a relative word. Depending on the context and the value scale used to compare forms of government, a democracy can be *worse* than many.
It's just that for much of us in this forums, we share most of the values used for the comparison. So it is natural that Democracy is better *For US*
Also, our culture *is* superior to most of the rest of the world, if you ask me. One must always be carefull when comparing cultures. What is "Superior" for one isn't for another. We might not like/stand for what the other culture stand/do/say, but we can only say for sure that our culture is better *For US*. Saying "We've got the BEST culture there is" is a recipe for trouble, as many former colonies can demonstrate.
Suicide bombing, for example, does not actually equate with watching Brittany shake her numnums, as you seem to suggest. Nevertheless, she should be banned under the Geneva Convention :D ... sorry, joking... But to that I would just like to reply that desperate peoples tend to do it the "Quick & Dirty" way, more so if they have some beliefs they'll be "Better after that". Also, one must take care not to lump everybody into the same barrels, else it all comes down to US ALL GOOD, THEM ALL BADS, which isn't the One and Only truth.
Failing to distinguish barbarism and barbaric culture from civilization and civilized culture is the first step toward the evaporation of orderly regimes into the slaughterhouses of history. Unfortunately, most of the more Civilized cultures do what barbaric ones do, only more quickly, cleanly and efficiently. Civilization has destroyed more cultures, lives and ecosystems than anything in history. It's not because the killing/destroying isn't down with a machete and in plain sight that it's not killing and destroying. Civilization nearly put an end to the "Human Problems" when Krutchev nearly pushed the button.
Civilization isn't always "Good". When imposed (as in the Americas, Africa, Australia and the likes) by "Conquerer States", mostly Bringing Civilization to Barbarian for Their Own Good, it has destroyed many knowledge and cultures.
I know you weren't talking about that kind of "barbarians" but when I see "Our civilization is Better Than Theirs" I always have flashbacks of the mounds of knowledge that perished with the Incas, Aztecs, and other that were "Civilized" by destroying their cultures and knowledge, just because their civilization wasn't judged "Civilized" by the Northen Europeans at that time.
Love your ship designs and models, but I suspect I dislike your politics - hopefully you won't hold that against me, just as I don't hold it against you. Agreeing to Disagree is the first step to be able to call your culture *Great*. Accepting that others might judge things differently because of their personal beliefs is a necessary part of being able to live together on this dirtball.
Unfortunatly, many society don't understand that very well. Western civilization hasn't happened overnight so we're not going to see whole countries/population changing their ideas in a mere month.
EDIT:
Obligatory ObTrav:
Characters stranded on a out of the way world with a balkanized governments. They're in the middle of a little war where a groupe of states tries to "Civilize" the others "For Their Own Good".
Unfortunatly, the Characters landed on the "Wrong" side of the Civilized Camp. When their presence is known, they're viewd as Uncivilized and treat them so. (trying to civilize them, be it to crack open the eggs on the "Civilized Side" or any other things like eating habits, speech patterns/word used etc)
Edit 2: Whooooo... Post #400!!!!!! smile.gif
Mythmere
June 17th, 2003, 08:18 PM
Just so we don't hijack this thread, I'm going to put my answer in a new post in Random Static. I'll call it Relocated Debate.
GBoyett
June 17th, 2003, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Originally Posted by George Boyett, Archduke of the Reactionary Militia
I take offense to that title.
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
So what's better? A small part of the population being desensitized by wicked gaming products, or a vast majority watching Brittany shake her num nums?
People that can be swayed into "amoral" action by such things as RPGs and Comics do not have a firm grip on sanity or reality in the first place. The issue is Mental Illness in that case, not RPGs. It has nothing do with which is worse. The issue is what effect (intentional or accidental) any stimulus has on a person.
If you do believe it's mental illness then maybe you should see a doctor. From past postings it sounds like you accepted the liberal spin about Republicans (cutting school lunches, cutting Medicare/Medicaid, etc.)
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Training to be a suicide bomber is "normal" for that culture of deperation. (the mideast in general) Its the same line of thought that propels our youngsters into the service and (in the old days, at least) into body bags.
I don't know if I should pity, sick and angry that you equate us with terrorists. If that the case what is preventing us from really let loose? If we are no different what is preventing us from just killing anyone we encounter in Iraq.?
Originally Posted by George Boyett, Archduke of the Reactionary Militia
I take offense to that title.
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
So what's better? A small part of the population being desensitized by wicked gaming products, or a vast majority watching Brittany shake her num nums?
People that can be swayed into "amoral" action by such things as RPGs and Comics do not have a firm grip on sanity or reality in the first place. The issue is Mental Illness in that case, not RPGs. It has nothing do with which is worse. The issue is what effect (intentional or accidental) any stimulus has on a person.
If you do believe it's mental illness then maybe you should see a doctor. From past postings it sounds like you accepted the liberal spin about Republicans (cutting school lunches, cutting Medicare/Medicaid, etc.)
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Training to be a suicide bomber is "normal" for that culture of deperation. (the mideast in general) Its the same line of thought that propels our youngsters into the service and (in the old days, at least) into body bags.
I don't know if I should pity, sick and angry that you equate us with terrorists. If that the case what is preventing us from really let loose? If we are no different what is preventing us from just killing anyone we encounter in Iraq.?
Baron Saarthuran
June 17th, 2003, 10:41 PM
Im sure the "enemy" people (humans) that we ran over with our tanks and blasted with TOW missiles have a firsthand idea of how much "terror" we can generate... I merely lament how easy and acceptable/justifiable it is for humans to kill other humans, regardless of thier conditioned differences in culture. If we truly are so great, then we should set an example to the world.
"I don't know if I should pity, sick and angry that you equate us with terrorists. If that the case what is preventing us from really let loose? If we are no different what is preventing us from just killing anyone we encounter in Iraq.?"
Feel as you wish, Milord, but take a moment to ponder how sure are you that we havent already "let loose"? The Government censored all but the most flatteringly heroic pictures of the first Gulf War, for the fact that we slaughtered them wholesale. The American People would have been less enthused had they seen the undiluted consequences. Oh, we sure did "let loose" in Panama and Grenada, and those people were basically unarmed. I do not fault the military, but the "Dirty Harry" fans that deploy them with seemingly no thought to global reaction. I find that pretty terrifying...
graemlins/omega.gif
"I don't know if I should pity, sick and angry that you equate us with terrorists. If that the case what is preventing us from really let loose? If we are no different what is preventing us from just killing anyone we encounter in Iraq.?"
Feel as you wish, Milord, but take a moment to ponder how sure are you that we havent already "let loose"? The Government censored all but the most flatteringly heroic pictures of the first Gulf War, for the fact that we slaughtered them wholesale. The American People would have been less enthused had they seen the undiluted consequences. Oh, we sure did "let loose" in Panama and Grenada, and those people were basically unarmed. I do not fault the military, but the "Dirty Harry" fans that deploy them with seemingly no thought to global reaction. I find that pretty terrifying...
graemlins/omega.gif
GBoyett
June 18th, 2003, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Im sure the "enemy" people (humans) that we ran over with our tanks and blasted with TOW missiles have a firsthand idea of how much "terror" we can generate... I merely lament how easy and acceptable/justifiable it is for humans to kill other humans, regardless of thier conditioned differences in culture. If we truly are so great, then we should set an example to the world. Were these people innocent or fighting us? Were we using homicide bombers targetting civilians?
What the hell are we suppose to do when others want us killed? Stand around in circle, sing songs, and wring our hands?
Talk and negotiation is useless is the other person wants you did. History has many examples when good intentions led to a worse atrocity.
When talk fails whats the solution? Tell me whats the next step?
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Feel as you wish, Milord, but take a moment to ponder how sure are you that we havent already "let loose"? The Government censored all but the most flatteringly heroic pictures of the first Gulf War, for the fact that we slaughtered them wholesale. The American People would have been less enthused had they seen the undiluted consequences. Oh, we sure did "let loose" in Panama and Grenada, and those people were basically unarmed. Where are you getting your evidence. Produce some please. All I'm hearing is rhetoric, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". If we did use a form of the Ban then wouldn't someone by now present credible evidence of such activity? All I'm hearing is just words.
How did we let loose in Panama and Grenada? Did we carpet bombed entire towns? No. We were fighting armed military and paramilitary forces. Any civilians killed were accidents. I got that my from friends who were there and from reading.
Where do you get there your information?
Im sure the "enemy" people (humans) that we ran over with our tanks and blasted with TOW missiles have a firsthand idea of how much "terror" we can generate... I merely lament how easy and acceptable/justifiable it is for humans to kill other humans, regardless of thier conditioned differences in culture. If we truly are so great, then we should set an example to the world. Were these people innocent or fighting us? Were we using homicide bombers targetting civilians?
What the hell are we suppose to do when others want us killed? Stand around in circle, sing songs, and wring our hands?
Talk and negotiation is useless is the other person wants you did. History has many examples when good intentions led to a worse atrocity.
When talk fails whats the solution? Tell me whats the next step?
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran:
Feel as you wish, Milord, but take a moment to ponder how sure are you that we havent already "let loose"? The Government censored all but the most flatteringly heroic pictures of the first Gulf War, for the fact that we slaughtered them wholesale. The American People would have been less enthused had they seen the undiluted consequences. Oh, we sure did "let loose" in Panama and Grenada, and those people were basically unarmed. Where are you getting your evidence. Produce some please. All I'm hearing is rhetoric, "full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". If we did use a form of the Ban then wouldn't someone by now present credible evidence of such activity? All I'm hearing is just words.
How did we let loose in Panama and Grenada? Did we carpet bombed entire towns? No. We were fighting armed military and paramilitary forces. Any civilians killed were accidents. I got that my from friends who were there and from reading.
Where do you get there your information?
Keklas Rekobah
June 18th, 2003, 11:22 AM
Msrs. Baron & Boyett,
I most respectfully request that you relocate your conflict to another sub-category. I had originally requested honest advice on how to present Traveller (and RPG's in general) to Christians (and religious people in general), with the evolving thread of how a "religious" character might be presented and portrayed within the Traveller game.
Your views within your topic are insightful and thoughfully worded, but tend to detract from my original intended purpose.
Thank you.
I most respectfully request that you relocate your conflict to another sub-category. I had originally requested honest advice on how to present Traveller (and RPG's in general) to Christians (and religious people in general), with the evolving thread of how a "religious" character might be presented and portrayed within the Traveller game.
Your views within your topic are insightful and thoughfully worded, but tend to detract from my original intended purpose.
Thank you.
GBoyett
June 18th, 2003, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
Msrs. Baron & Boyett,
I most respectfully request that you relocate your conflict to another sub-category. I had originally requested honest advice on how to present Traveller (and RPG's in general) to Christians (and religious people in general), with the evolving thread of how a "religious" character might be presented and portrayed within the Traveller game. Our arguement evolved from the topic when a certain person decided to interject thier political views into a topic.
Msrs. Baron & Boyett,
I most respectfully request that you relocate your conflict to another sub-category. I had originally requested honest advice on how to present Traveller (and RPG's in general) to Christians (and religious people in general), with the evolving thread of how a "religious" character might be presented and portrayed within the Traveller game. Our arguement evolved from the topic when a certain person decided to interject thier political views into a topic.
roygbiv
June 18th, 2003, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
Situation:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
I don't mean to be impudent here, but you might want to have a serious talk about the way your game would have to change in order to accomodate this new player, and take your cue from your current players.
I completely respect your friend's right to live according to her beliefs but, were I one of your RPGers, I suspect that I wouldn't share any of them and would not be inclined to change my gaming interests to accomodate her, especially if she's the new member in the group.
Give your existing players a chance to talk about how this might alter the group dynamic and how much they're willing to accomodate her. They then have the opportunity to look for another game before experiencing the disappointment of watching the current one "die on the vine."
I guess you have to ask "who's more important: my minister friend or my RPG group." If you're really lucky, your gang will welcome the challenge of playing with this new person.
Situation:
How best to present RPG playing in a Traveller setting to the minister, with available resources and players, and without precipitating the Apocalypse ( graemlins/omega.gif = graemlins/toast.gif ) or driving the veteran players psychotic with boredom? redface.gif
I don't mean to be impudent here, but you might want to have a serious talk about the way your game would have to change in order to accomodate this new player, and take your cue from your current players.
I completely respect your friend's right to live according to her beliefs but, were I one of your RPGers, I suspect that I wouldn't share any of them and would not be inclined to change my gaming interests to accomodate her, especially if she's the new member in the group.
Give your existing players a chance to talk about how this might alter the group dynamic and how much they're willing to accomodate her. They then have the opportunity to look for another game before experiencing the disappointment of watching the current one "die on the vine."
I guess you have to ask "who's more important: my minister friend or my RPG group." If you're really lucky, your gang will welcome the challenge of playing with this new person.
Keklas Rekobah
June 19th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Roygie,
Actually, all my players AND my minister y/f are important to me. I also have ulterior motives for bringing them all together; the desire to develop projects for Traveller (adventures, short stories, templates, et cetera) with a group of people who have widely divergent methods of problem solving and social interaction.
To this end, it would be counter-productive to work with a group of people who all act and think alike.
For instance, take any standalone Traveller adventure and run it with a group of players who are military professionals, then with a group of players who are teenage cyberpunk photophobic hackers, and you will see that the two groups do not handle the adventure the same way.
The best group of players I've ever worked with included:
- A male automotive painter.
- A male fundamentalist minister.
- A female graduate student in physics.
- A male programming manager for an auto manufacturer.
- A male stock clerk for an x-Mart store.
- A female office manager.
- A female phychiatrist.
This group and I ran a fantasy RPG together for seven years, trading off the referee position as needed. Attrition was due to graduation, divorce, and military service.
It is the diversity of the players that makes a game exciting, and the tolerance of each others' words and actions that keeps them together.
So, back to a more general form of the original question, "How best to integrate people of diverse, and often conflicting, backgrounds and beliefs into a cohesive gaming group?"
Actually, all my players AND my minister y/f are important to me. I also have ulterior motives for bringing them all together; the desire to develop projects for Traveller (adventures, short stories, templates, et cetera) with a group of people who have widely divergent methods of problem solving and social interaction.
To this end, it would be counter-productive to work with a group of people who all act and think alike.
For instance, take any standalone Traveller adventure and run it with a group of players who are military professionals, then with a group of players who are teenage cyberpunk photophobic hackers, and you will see that the two groups do not handle the adventure the same way.
The best group of players I've ever worked with included:
- A male automotive painter.
- A male fundamentalist minister.
- A female graduate student in physics.
- A male programming manager for an auto manufacturer.
- A male stock clerk for an x-Mart store.
- A female office manager.
- A female phychiatrist.
This group and I ran a fantasy RPG together for seven years, trading off the referee position as needed. Attrition was due to graduation, divorce, and military service.
It is the diversity of the players that makes a game exciting, and the tolerance of each others' words and actions that keeps them together.
So, back to a more general form of the original question, "How best to integrate people of diverse, and often conflicting, backgrounds and beliefs into a cohesive gaming group?"
Baron Saarthuran
June 20th, 2003, 01:56 AM
Which game was it Lord Keklas?
I often have held the view that a less diverse and more "veteranized" gaming situation has a much more limited shelf-life. I recently DMed a oneshot (The Red Book) Basic Dungeons and Dragons Game with a group that had the "its a nerd's game" view. They had a great time, and are now constanty on my back about D&D... Open minds are indeed the best minds, what?
graemlins/omega.gif
I often have held the view that a less diverse and more "veteranized" gaming situation has a much more limited shelf-life. I recently DMed a oneshot (The Red Book) Basic Dungeons and Dragons Game with a group that had the "its a nerd's game" view. They had a great time, and are now constanty on my back about D&D... Open minds are indeed the best minds, what?
graemlins/omega.gif
mad13142000
June 20th, 2003, 06:19 AM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
The best group of players I've ever worked with included:
- A male automotive painter.
- A male fundamentalist minister.
- A female graduate student in physics.
- A male programming manager for an auto manufacturer.
- A male stock clerk for an x-Mart store.
- A female office manager.
- A female phychiatrist.
<snip>
"How best to integrate people of diverse, and often conflicting, backgrounds and beliefs into a cohesive gaming group?" So, what were THEIR reasons for wanting to game?
I myself get a warm fuzzy thinking that we all get along enough to get us to the far future...I'm the astrogator..the trader..the explorer. What does the minister find interesting?
I've had many freinds of opposite political/religious/social bent..It's the things that bring us together that make us a group or society. By appealing to those things is how to keep a group together and comfortable with each other.
I've found Traveller to be (like a lot of sci-fi) pretty religion-neutral. So it must be the idea of being somone else in the far future or doing something that we don't or can't do here on boring old Earth that makes someone opposed to some RPGs decide on OUR RPG....
smile.gif
again, just my .02Cr
-MADDog
The best group of players I've ever worked with included:
- A male automotive painter.
- A male fundamentalist minister.
- A female graduate student in physics.
- A male programming manager for an auto manufacturer.
- A male stock clerk for an x-Mart store.
- A female office manager.
- A female phychiatrist.
<snip>
"How best to integrate people of diverse, and often conflicting, backgrounds and beliefs into a cohesive gaming group?" So, what were THEIR reasons for wanting to game?
I myself get a warm fuzzy thinking that we all get along enough to get us to the far future...I'm the astrogator..the trader..the explorer. What does the minister find interesting?
I've had many freinds of opposite political/religious/social bent..It's the things that bring us together that make us a group or society. By appealing to those things is how to keep a group together and comfortable with each other.
I've found Traveller to be (like a lot of sci-fi) pretty religion-neutral. So it must be the idea of being somone else in the far future or doing something that we don't or can't do here on boring old Earth that makes someone opposed to some RPGs decide on OUR RPG....
smile.gif
again, just my .02Cr
-MADDog
roygbiv
June 20th, 2003, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Keklas Rekobah:
It is the diversity of the players that makes a game exciting, and the tolerance of each others' words and actions that keeps them together.Fair enough. I meant no disrespect.
So, back to a more general form of the original question, "How best to integrate people of diverse, and often conflicting, backgrounds and beliefs into a cohesive gaming group?" Get them to distinguish between their personal beliefs and those of the characters they're playing. If their characters have conflict, encourage the players to work that out in the game. If the players find they're at loggerheads because of belief systems external to the game, remind them that this is a game and not a soapbox (and I'm not thinking of your minister friend when I say this). They should probably take time outside the game to resolve their differences or just agree to disagree.
Try a few sessions where they have to play characters whose viewpoints would be completely opposite of their real life positions. I would do this anyway: let the veterans play gun-shy merchies and the peaceniks play ex-commandos.
You obviously trust that the players you game with can handle diversity. You also obviously trust your minister friend to be consistent in her beliefs but open minded enough to interact with people who don't necessarily share them. Fortunately, in Traveller, there's a lot of middle ground between taking a religious position in the campaign and introducing elements which might be considered "evil" or atheistic. Keep the focus on interaction and problem solving and the players are likely to generate their own fun.
It is the diversity of the players that makes a game exciting, and the tolerance of each others' words and actions that keeps them together.Fair enough. I meant no disrespect.
So, back to a more general form of the original question, "How best to integrate people of diverse, and often conflicting, backgrounds and beliefs into a cohesive gaming group?" Get them to distinguish between their personal beliefs and those of the characters they're playing. If their characters have conflict, encourage the players to work that out in the game. If the players find they're at loggerheads because of belief systems external to the game, remind them that this is a game and not a soapbox (and I'm not thinking of your minister friend when I say this). They should probably take time outside the game to resolve their differences or just agree to disagree.
Try a few sessions where they have to play characters whose viewpoints would be completely opposite of their real life positions. I would do this anyway: let the veterans play gun-shy merchies and the peaceniks play ex-commandos.
You obviously trust that the players you game with can handle diversity. You also obviously trust your minister friend to be consistent in her beliefs but open minded enough to interact with people who don't necessarily share them. Fortunately, in Traveller, there's a lot of middle ground between taking a religious position in the campaign and introducing elements which might be considered "evil" or atheistic. Keep the focus on interaction and problem solving and the players are likely to generate their own fun.
Keklas Rekobah
June 20th, 2003, 10:47 AM
"Which game was it Lord Keklas?"A chimeric hybrid of AD&D, Gurps ('scuse me), Rifts, Traveller, and several other gamelets that have since passed into oblivion.
"So, what were THEIR reasons for wanting to game?"To have fun.
"What does the minister find interesting?"Having fun with people.
"So, what were THEIR reasons for wanting to game?"To have fun.
"What does the minister find interesting?"Having fun with people.
FANTASYFAN1968
June 22nd, 2003, 10:11 AM
Reviewed my previous post, and of course found that I had allowed myself to go off-topic. I hope this post will be more to the point. I'm thinking that before anything else, you should regard your minister friend much as you would anybody else you were going to invite to join an established gaming group. For example, consider the following:
1. Will the newcomwer be able to fit in socially with the existing group? They were here first, after all.
2. Will the addition of the newbie disrupt the playing style of the group? If so, can you as the ref still come up with adventures that will be interesting (and, perhaps most of all, FUN) for the entire group?
3. Do discussions of a religious, political, or otherwise "touchy" nature come up often in your gaming sessions? IMHO, this is the sticking point. If your friend is treating this as a game (a social occasion), and everyone agrees ahead of time not to engage in discussions of such a nature, I think this can work.
Some of the most successful games I've been in have involved quite a diverse group of players - religiously, politically, what have you. We all had the understanding that we were there to have fun, and any out of game discussions that interfered with that goal were not to be tolerated.
The old rule about not discussing religion or politics at work can also apply to a gaming session.
1. Will the newcomwer be able to fit in socially with the existing group? They were here first, after all.
2. Will the addition of the newbie disrupt the playing style of the group? If so, can you as the ref still come up with adventures that will be interesting (and, perhaps most of all, FUN) for the entire group?
3. Do discussions of a religious, political, or otherwise "touchy" nature come up often in your gaming sessions? IMHO, this is the sticking point. If your friend is treating this as a game (a social occasion), and everyone agrees ahead of time not to engage in discussions of such a nature, I think this can work.
Some of the most successful games I've been in have involved quite a diverse group of players - religiously, politically, what have you. We all had the understanding that we were there to have fun, and any out of game discussions that interfered with that goal were not to be tolerated.
The old rule about not discussing religion or politics at work can also apply to a gaming session.
PapaGolfWhiskey
June 24th, 2003, 01:15 PM
My advice: (avoiding religio-polictical issues unrelated to the task at hand)
1) Learn (if you haven't already) what sort of stories your Cleric enjoys? what books does she read? what TV shows? what sort of things do her heros and heroines do?
2) Introductory gaming. Explain how such games work. One of my favourite tricks is to throw away the dice and the books for about 20 to 30 minutes and just talk your way through a simple session based on what you learned above.
(I still remember one time in such a session that that the player decided to be a secret service agent and at loss for ideas I took him to the back seat of cadilic in dallas 1963... "I run for the grassy knoll!" -- sorry I digress)
Anyhow just show her one to one by talking out a scenario she might be comfortable with.
2) B) During Chargen, make the wonderfull lengthy "past history" die roll session another role playing session. Invent RP fluff for each 'event' -- ie don't just tell a military character "well since you were an aide this year,next year you get to pick your assignment" say instead something like "After a year of keeping the old grizzly's appointments in line and filling out his routine paperwork and making sure the right people saw him and the wrong people didn't you come away with a much greater understanding of how the Navy works (Admin+1) Sometime before you leave the Old Admiral asks you. "Well Son, You've done good work for me this past year, where would you like to go next?"
This is also a good place to describe the milieu
3) Prep your friends, ask them to be on their good behaviour. best foot forward and all that. once everyone get's comfortable things will get more relaxed but it doesn't hurt to mind your manners at first.
4)ENLIST your friends. get them in on the "Let's convert the newbie". By inviting them into the project of bringing this lady into the fold you have the pottential to make the 'burden' of being on good behaviour fun. Ask each to provide their skills. Maybe you have a 'rules lawyer' who can keep her from pitfalls, thus allowing you to play your role of impartial ref a little more honestly. Maybe you have someone who REALLY get's into character or who is extremely funny. try and get them to bend their talents into making it fun for the Lady.
5) uh... keep your fingers crossed? Follow the other advice listed on this thread? hope this helps.
As for Religious Professionals in Traveller: I forgot weather we are talking CT or T20.
If using just the three black books... you're best bet is either the Other, or making 'cleric' a military chaplain. Swap out some of the more military skills for extra leadership and personal skills. If they get decorated tell the story as one of her selflessly saving the life of a comrade.
If you have 4th ed. or Citizens or Mega traveller options about. Maybe your Cleric is some agent extraordinary for a religious group. Law Enforcement or Agent (whatever a particular addition calls it.)
An evangelical Preist especially one with a huge following is probably best emulated with an 'Entertainer' career. The cleric may see themselves as more than a 'mere' entertainer but the skills, lifestyle and other features of the career are stunningly similar.
Your day to day cleric might be professional (I think that's actual a T20 class)
An Academic or Scholar is very suited to a theologically inclined cleric and/or Field agent for religion backed archeological digs.
And don't forget the Noble. Traveller characters who make a Career out of their noble titles are usually involved in Diplomacy, Interplanetry Civil Administration and other tasks that could equally be the province of a high flying cleric.
With all of the above you may have to tweak a skill here or there (unless playing T20 or GT they (I think) are flexible enough to allow you to actualy create a cleric/preist/minister.
Hope this helps.
1) Learn (if you haven't already) what sort of stories your Cleric enjoys? what books does she read? what TV shows? what sort of things do her heros and heroines do?
2) Introductory gaming. Explain how such games work. One of my favourite tricks is to throw away the dice and the books for about 20 to 30 minutes and just talk your way through a simple session based on what you learned above.
(I still remember one time in such a session that that the player decided to be a secret service agent and at loss for ideas I took him to the back seat of cadilic in dallas 1963... "I run for the grassy knoll!" -- sorry I digress)
Anyhow just show her one to one by talking out a scenario she might be comfortable with.
2) B) During Chargen, make the wonderfull lengthy "past history" die roll session another role playing session. Invent RP fluff for each 'event' -- ie don't just tell a military character "well since you were an aide this year,next year you get to pick your assignment" say instead something like "After a year of keeping the old grizzly's appointments in line and filling out his routine paperwork and making sure the right people saw him and the wrong people didn't you come away with a much greater understanding of how the Navy works (Admin+1) Sometime before you leave the Old Admiral asks you. "Well Son, You've done good work for me this past year, where would you like to go next?"
This is also a good place to describe the milieu
3) Prep your friends, ask them to be on their good behaviour. best foot forward and all that. once everyone get's comfortable things will get more relaxed but it doesn't hurt to mind your manners at first.
4)ENLIST your friends. get them in on the "Let's convert the newbie". By inviting them into the project of bringing this lady into the fold you have the pottential to make the 'burden' of being on good behaviour fun. Ask each to provide their skills. Maybe you have a 'rules lawyer' who can keep her from pitfalls, thus allowing you to play your role of impartial ref a little more honestly. Maybe you have someone who REALLY get's into character or who is extremely funny. try and get them to bend their talents into making it fun for the Lady.
5) uh... keep your fingers crossed? Follow the other advice listed on this thread? hope this helps.
As for Religious Professionals in Traveller: I forgot weather we are talking CT or T20.
If using just the three black books... you're best bet is either the Other, or making 'cleric' a military chaplain. Swap out some of the more military skills for extra leadership and personal skills. If they get decorated tell the story as one of her selflessly saving the life of a comrade.
If you have 4th ed. or Citizens or Mega traveller options about. Maybe your Cleric is some agent extraordinary for a religious group. Law Enforcement or Agent (whatever a particular addition calls it.)
An evangelical Preist especially one with a huge following is probably best emulated with an 'Entertainer' career. The cleric may see themselves as more than a 'mere' entertainer but the skills, lifestyle and other features of the career are stunningly similar.
Your day to day cleric might be professional (I think that's actual a T20 class)
An Academic or Scholar is very suited to a theologically inclined cleric and/or Field agent for religion backed archeological digs.
And don't forget the Noble. Traveller characters who make a Career out of their noble titles are usually involved in Diplomacy, Interplanetry Civil Administration and other tasks that could equally be the province of a high flying cleric.
With all of the above you may have to tweak a skill here or there (unless playing T20 or GT they (I think) are flexible enough to allow you to actualy create a cleric/preist/minister.
Hope this helps.
Ran Targas
June 24th, 2003, 10:57 PM
May I offer this anecdote:
When I was in college, my GM buddy really wanted to get one of his professors into gaming (as well as other things). She had written her masters thesis on heroines in modern media, specifically Ripley from Aliens. My buddy thought running a bug hunt adventure and letting her play a Ripley clone would be the hook. He crafted characters for all of our normal group to play and went through great pains to get every detail right. I got to play the evil company rep, with orders to get one/all of the party infected.
The game would have gone well if my buddy and our group were not under so much pressure to make a good impression. The GM became very irritated when things didn't go as planned and his professor became very bored with our idle chatter. All in all, it wasn't fun, we never finished the adventure, and she didn't play again, ever. I don't think he got what he wanted either.
My advice: Don't push to hard and be very patient and loyal to your regular players. If they aren't having fun, you'll lose their support very quickly.
Also try pairing her with one of your more patient players as early as possible. That way you aren't overly focused on her and she has someone else to ask questions of.
When I was in college, my GM buddy really wanted to get one of his professors into gaming (as well as other things). She had written her masters thesis on heroines in modern media, specifically Ripley from Aliens. My buddy thought running a bug hunt adventure and letting her play a Ripley clone would be the hook. He crafted characters for all of our normal group to play and went through great pains to get every detail right. I got to play the evil company rep, with orders to get one/all of the party infected.
The game would have gone well if my buddy and our group were not under so much pressure to make a good impression. The GM became very irritated when things didn't go as planned and his professor became very bored with our idle chatter. All in all, it wasn't fun, we never finished the adventure, and she didn't play again, ever. I don't think he got what he wanted either.
My advice: Don't push to hard and be very patient and loyal to your regular players. If they aren't having fun, you'll lose their support very quickly.
Also try pairing her with one of your more patient players as early as possible. That way you aren't overly focused on her and she has someone else to ask questions of.
Keklas Rekobah
June 25th, 2003, 12:01 PM
Ah, patience. What a concept! ;)
It ranks right up there with Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Temperance, Tolerance and other ideals of social science.
Hey, waitaminnit! Whir's muh sope bocks? Eyes gotts mi sum preechinn tuh gitt on...
It ranks right up there with Love, Joy, Peace, Kindness, Temperance, Tolerance and other ideals of social science.
Hey, waitaminnit! Whir's muh sope bocks? Eyes gotts mi sum preechinn tuh gitt on...
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét