jchurchill
August 25th, 2004, 06:12 PM
I don't think I have seen this addressed in Traveller --at least not CT or Mega-Deth Traveller but how are the Vilani physically different from Solomani, Zhodani or even Syleans?
Was this ever addressed in any supplement?
Was there any indication that they were transplanted Persians or Babylonians?
Was this ever addressed in any supplement?
Was there any indication that they were transplanted Persians or Babylonians?
Malenfant
August 25th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Considering that they were moved about 300,000 years before any kind of human civilisation on Earth, I think it's safe to say that they weren't Persians or Babylonians - at least culturally. They may well have been moved from that area though, but given that they've always been portrayed as white-skinned caucasians I doubt this is the case (in fact, a lot of the transplanted human races seem to be caucasian in origin).
Also bear in mind that really, 300,000 years ago there probably weren't any Homo Sapiens around - it was all Homo Erectus, IIRC. I dunno if anyone knew this when Traveller was first written though, so it may just be one of those things that one has to suspend disbelief over.
That said, the rather fab (IMO) "Vilani & Vargr" book published by DGP for Megatraveller does say that they can have purple or gold irises in their eyes (for some odd reason that I'm not sure about), IIRC. Though since this is (annoyingly) non-canonical now you might choose not to take that as a data point.
Also bear in mind that really, 300,000 years ago there probably weren't any Homo Sapiens around - it was all Homo Erectus, IIRC. I dunno if anyone knew this when Traveller was first written though, so it may just be one of those things that one has to suspend disbelief over.
That said, the rather fab (IMO) "Vilani & Vargr" book published by DGP for Megatraveller does say that they can have purple or gold irises in their eyes (for some odd reason that I'm not sure about), IIRC. Though since this is (annoyingly) non-canonical now you might choose not to take that as a data point.
Border Reiver
August 25th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Bugger really. I loved that book. What about Cats & Rats, has that gone the way of The Beyond?
It also mention some interesting blood typing.
It also mention some interesting blood typing.
Border Reiver
August 25th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Bugger really. I loved that book. What about Cats & Rats, has that gone the way of The Beyond?
It also mention some interesting blood typing.
It also mention some interesting blood typing.
Elliot
August 25th, 2004, 07:50 PM
V&V is not non canonical - it is unsuable canon in official publications but as I understand it even the broad brush 'lets ignore the past' approach of GURPS cannot de canonise v&v (which I accept, for the avoidance of doubt, is not a bad thing) as MWM (according to LKW's comment on GURPS channels such as the TML or the JTAS board) has said that DGP products must keep their IP but cannot be used in official text.
I might be wrong or might misunderstand what Mr Wiseman has said, of course, but I dont see how V&V is 'de canonised' in light of Mr Miller's injunction to Traveller authors.
I dont have the GURPS book on Vilani - is there anything in that publication that states the opposite of MWM's general policy?
I might be wrong or might misunderstand what Mr Wiseman has said, of course, but I dont see how V&V is 'de canonised' in light of Mr Miller's injunction to Traveller authors.
I dont have the GURPS book on Vilani - is there anything in that publication that states the opposite of MWM's general policy?
Malenfant
August 25th, 2004, 08:37 PM
There isn't a GURPS book about the Vilani - they're not in the GT:Humaniti book either.
What's annoying about the DGP stuff is that - from what I've gathered anyway - the only reason they're decanonised is because of legal issues. I've never heard anything to suggest that they're decanonised because the material itself is substandard or wrong (indeed, before GT came along I rated the DGP stuff as the best material ever written for Traveller).
I wonder - in the unlikely event that the legal issues will ever be resolved in MWM's favour, would the DGP material ever come back into canon?
What's annoying about the DGP stuff is that - from what I've gathered anyway - the only reason they're decanonised is because of legal issues. I've never heard anything to suggest that they're decanonised because the material itself is substandard or wrong (indeed, before GT came along I rated the DGP stuff as the best material ever written for Traveller).
I wonder - in the unlikely event that the legal issues will ever be resolved in MWM's favour, would the DGP material ever come back into canon?
lightsenshi
August 25th, 2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by secretagent:
Was there any indication that they were transplanted Persians or Babylonians? It might be an interesting little detail if the Persians or Babylonians were in fact a lost group of Vilani explorers (or some such).
Was there any indication that they were transplanted Persians or Babylonians? It might be an interesting little detail if the Persians or Babylonians were in fact a lost group of Vilani explorers (or some such).
robject
August 25th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Sumerians. They were a Vilani colony. Maybe Earth was a penal colony for Vilani dissenter groups.
Malenfant
August 26th, 2004, 02:32 AM
That could be kinda fun in a way. Ever read "Encounter With Tiber" by Buzz Aldrin (and someone else I think)? In that an alien humanoid race land on Earth a few thousand years in the fertile crescent that ends up being worshipped by the locals. And all those wacky biblical things (like Ezekiel's chariot of fire, and the big pillar of fire that's seen somewhere) are things like shuttles crashing or motherships desperately trying to stay aloft.
But if it's kinda like that with the Vilani, then I'd have them wiped out by the local Terran humans. It'd be too wacky to have it all turn out like Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where all the Solomani are actually descended from all those useless Vilani telephone sanitisers... smile.gif
But if it's kinda like that with the Vilani, then I'd have them wiped out by the local Terran humans. It'd be too wacky to have it all turn out like Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where all the Solomani are actually descended from all those useless Vilani telephone sanitisers... smile.gif
mike wightman
August 26th, 2004, 03:15 AM
300,000 to 400,000BC is the time period for Homo Erectus to disappear and Homo Sapiens to arrise.
Here's a nice timeline for human development (http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/timeline.html) smile.gif
Here's a nice timeline for human development (http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/timeline.html) smile.gif
mike wightman
August 26th, 2004, 03:21 AM
Proof of Ancients genetic modification?
although the H. erectus brain is configured somewhat differently than our own.from the Homo erectus entry in the link above.
So did the Ancients transport "humans" from Earth and then modify them, or did they experiment with them on Earth first??? ;)
although the H. erectus brain is configured somewhat differently than our own.from the Homo erectus entry in the link above.
So did the Ancients transport "humans" from Earth and then modify them, or did they experiment with them on Earth first??? ;)
aramis
August 26th, 2004, 03:35 AM
Canon says in a few places you can tell by the teeth... number not the same as H. Sapiens solomani.
Since Zhodani have 2 additional blood type antigens (M and N), it is safe to assume similar issues for vilani.
Since Zhodani have 2 additional blood type antigens (M and N), it is safe to assume similar issues for vilani.
kafka47
August 26th, 2004, 08:51 AM
Some physical differences...
The Vilani have also mastered the secrets of longevity in which their science and protected environment allowed them to flourish on worlds alien to their own. Therefore, I have a much higher life expectancy. Skin colour tends toward the tan or brown or reddish. (Somewhere in canon there is talk even of a blue-skinned Vilani) Their eyes remain more hooded with an extra fold of skin.
But having said all that the whole of humaniti is so interbred in the Far, Far Future nothing short of a bloodtest would determine whether a person is truly Vilani or just one of the many genetic experiments by the different Imperiums to aid in the settlement of hostile worlds.
The significant difference in the Vilani resides within their psychology not physiology.
The GT Book on the Vilani is likely to deal with the Vilani in the IW Milieu given their propensity for change or lack thereof...it might be safely said that these characteristics would not change even in 1248.
As to the references to the Vilani being Persian or today's Iranians, Azeris, Iraqis this was hinted at in one of the Imperiallines issues which stated (warning very long entry):
Early Vilani/Terran Contacts by Terrence R. Mclnnes Scholars in the Restored Vilani Imperium have recently added an area of study that, till now, was never formally addressedthe possibility of Vilani contact with pre-stellar Terra. Two papers, published almost simultaneously in 1117, sparked the controversy. Later citings to legends, historical accounts, linguistic studies and archeological evidence fueled the growing debate. But, the topics of the original two papers still dominate discussions. Synopses of the two papers follow. The Lagash Disappearance: The exploratory cruiser Lagash was oneof a numberof vessels dispatched toward the Rim during the first great wave of Vilani exploration and settlement. The Lagash and her sisterships spent years on a single voyage. Though equipped only with relatively crude Jump-1 drives, they had enormous fuel capacity. The cruisers could use multiple jumps through deep space to reach stars farther than one parsec apart. The Lagash was rimward-bound out of Muan Gwi in -7518 when she last parted company with other Vilani vessels. She was due back at the Muan Gwi fleet rendezvous point in three years, but never returned. Documents dating back to -6021 offer some clues to the Lagash's disappearance. They include information about a sub-light message torpedo, with recorded togs from the Lagash, discovered flying through the Kaggashus system. When interrogated, it broad- cast its recordings on all commonly used hailing frequencies. The torpedo was moving toofast to be intercepted and disappeared again into deep space. The logs told of a drive fault while thecruiser was in a system with four gas giants and one hospitable world, a world with an indigenous human race. A further mishap, while refueling at the largest gas giant, permanently crippled the ship. With no other choice, the crew salvaged whatever it could from the cruiser and shuttled to the surface of the main world. Documents available to scholars do not mention the specific coordinates of the system. Although a few fragments of the original logs still exist, most of the surviving documents were not detailed records, rather merely appeals to Sharurshid management for further exploration, appeals Sharurshid denied. The Lagash was only mentioned in places. However, careful analysis of all references to the Lagash log makes Terra a likely place forthe crew to have landed.
This is further supported by information from Terra. According to Terran archeological records, humans living in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley began developing a major civilization shortly after the Lagash became marooned. Coincidentally, a major city-state in the region was named Lagash. By 2500 BC (-7018), the Lagash dynasty had conquered neigh- boring Ur and other city-states spreading a written language, engi- neering technology, and the concept of personal freedom throughout the area. The Sumerians, (possibly under the influence and leader- ship of the Lagashi), developed the first high civilization on Terra. They gave the world the first engineered irrigation systems, the potter's wheel, the wheeled vehicle, the sailboat, the first coherent system of music, and a base-60 mathematical system. Terran linguists were amazed to leam, with the first Vilani encounters at Barnard's Star, that the Vilani language in many ways resembles ancient Sumerian, and that the First Empire Vilani alpha- bet had a strong similarity to Sumerian cuneiform writing. This suggests to many scholars that the crew of the Lagash did indeed establish a base on early Terra. They speculate that the Lagash crew used the remnants of their equipment and knowledge of technology to build superiorweapons and farm implements. These were in turn used to dominate their indigenous neighbors. Physical evidence of the Lagash would be most difficult, if not impossible to find after all these millennia. Since the Lagash itself was never found in orbit around Terra, most believe its orbit decayed and was destroyed in the crash. Based on orbital data in the few surviving log fragments, some believe the explosion in 1600 BC ( 6118) that destroyed most of the island of Santorini and much of the Cretan civilization in the eastern Mediterranean Sea was caused by the Lagash entering the atmosphere and crashing into the sea. Those holding the strongest belief in the Santorini/Lagash crash theory speculate that some wfefsnoa of the crash, probably fossilized into rock, may still remain m the seated near the island. The VlllanI Brothers: In AD 1275 (-3243). Giovanni and Matteo Villani appeared in Florence, Italy. Their origins were unknown, however they belonged to the wealthy merchant dass and Giovanni in particular rose to play a major role in Europe's international economy. Giovanni Villani is most noted for his bookthe Cronica Universale. This work traces human history from its origins, and gives a detailed insight into the Florence of his time. This chronicle also reflects the worid was that of the counting house, the f 0'j city hall, and the public square. He and 0 i his brother were every inch merchants. But more than this, they exhibited every characteristic traditional to Sharurshid.
However, several scholars speculate that perhaps the Vilani brothers were Vilani. Possibly they were traders voyaging along the rimward frontier of the Sharurshid bureau's territory in search of new business opportunities, and found themselves stranded on a primitive but developing Terra. By this time the First Empire had reached its maximum expansion, and the nearest Vilani controlled worid was only a few parsecs to coreward. To this day, no ; one knows the Villani's exact origin or the year of their birth. Could they have come from the stars? I Artifacts from this period in Terra's history still survive, preserved by families or museums. Scholars, at AAB are hopeful that relics of the Villani brothers may in truth prove to be Vilani. The information on which these papers are basedparticularly the possible relationship between the Vilani and Sumerian languageshas long been on file within the AAB on Viand. That this knowledge was not distributed until now suggests a mechanism within the Third Imperium's bureaucracy might have suppressed it. The surge of interest in this topic also comes with a large measure of frustration. Many of the ideas offered by scholars can potentially be confirmed on Terra. Unfortunately, the routes to that world, the birth place of humaniti. have closed indefinitely. (Note: Terrence Mclnnes is the author of MagaTravellerAliens)
Above is Copyright GDW(c)
The Vilani have also mastered the secrets of longevity in which their science and protected environment allowed them to flourish on worlds alien to their own. Therefore, I have a much higher life expectancy. Skin colour tends toward the tan or brown or reddish. (Somewhere in canon there is talk even of a blue-skinned Vilani) Their eyes remain more hooded with an extra fold of skin.
But having said all that the whole of humaniti is so interbred in the Far, Far Future nothing short of a bloodtest would determine whether a person is truly Vilani or just one of the many genetic experiments by the different Imperiums to aid in the settlement of hostile worlds.
The significant difference in the Vilani resides within their psychology not physiology.
The GT Book on the Vilani is likely to deal with the Vilani in the IW Milieu given their propensity for change or lack thereof...it might be safely said that these characteristics would not change even in 1248.
As to the references to the Vilani being Persian or today's Iranians, Azeris, Iraqis this was hinted at in one of the Imperiallines issues which stated (warning very long entry):
Early Vilani/Terran Contacts by Terrence R. Mclnnes Scholars in the Restored Vilani Imperium have recently added an area of study that, till now, was never formally addressedthe possibility of Vilani contact with pre-stellar Terra. Two papers, published almost simultaneously in 1117, sparked the controversy. Later citings to legends, historical accounts, linguistic studies and archeological evidence fueled the growing debate. But, the topics of the original two papers still dominate discussions. Synopses of the two papers follow. The Lagash Disappearance: The exploratory cruiser Lagash was oneof a numberof vessels dispatched toward the Rim during the first great wave of Vilani exploration and settlement. The Lagash and her sisterships spent years on a single voyage. Though equipped only with relatively crude Jump-1 drives, they had enormous fuel capacity. The cruisers could use multiple jumps through deep space to reach stars farther than one parsec apart. The Lagash was rimward-bound out of Muan Gwi in -7518 when she last parted company with other Vilani vessels. She was due back at the Muan Gwi fleet rendezvous point in three years, but never returned. Documents dating back to -6021 offer some clues to the Lagash's disappearance. They include information about a sub-light message torpedo, with recorded togs from the Lagash, discovered flying through the Kaggashus system. When interrogated, it broad- cast its recordings on all commonly used hailing frequencies. The torpedo was moving toofast to be intercepted and disappeared again into deep space. The logs told of a drive fault while thecruiser was in a system with four gas giants and one hospitable world, a world with an indigenous human race. A further mishap, while refueling at the largest gas giant, permanently crippled the ship. With no other choice, the crew salvaged whatever it could from the cruiser and shuttled to the surface of the main world. Documents available to scholars do not mention the specific coordinates of the system. Although a few fragments of the original logs still exist, most of the surviving documents were not detailed records, rather merely appeals to Sharurshid management for further exploration, appeals Sharurshid denied. The Lagash was only mentioned in places. However, careful analysis of all references to the Lagash log makes Terra a likely place forthe crew to have landed.
This is further supported by information from Terra. According to Terran archeological records, humans living in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley began developing a major civilization shortly after the Lagash became marooned. Coincidentally, a major city-state in the region was named Lagash. By 2500 BC (-7018), the Lagash dynasty had conquered neigh- boring Ur and other city-states spreading a written language, engi- neering technology, and the concept of personal freedom throughout the area. The Sumerians, (possibly under the influence and leader- ship of the Lagashi), developed the first high civilization on Terra. They gave the world the first engineered irrigation systems, the potter's wheel, the wheeled vehicle, the sailboat, the first coherent system of music, and a base-60 mathematical system. Terran linguists were amazed to leam, with the first Vilani encounters at Barnard's Star, that the Vilani language in many ways resembles ancient Sumerian, and that the First Empire Vilani alpha- bet had a strong similarity to Sumerian cuneiform writing. This suggests to many scholars that the crew of the Lagash did indeed establish a base on early Terra. They speculate that the Lagash crew used the remnants of their equipment and knowledge of technology to build superiorweapons and farm implements. These were in turn used to dominate their indigenous neighbors. Physical evidence of the Lagash would be most difficult, if not impossible to find after all these millennia. Since the Lagash itself was never found in orbit around Terra, most believe its orbit decayed and was destroyed in the crash. Based on orbital data in the few surviving log fragments, some believe the explosion in 1600 BC ( 6118) that destroyed most of the island of Santorini and much of the Cretan civilization in the eastern Mediterranean Sea was caused by the Lagash entering the atmosphere and crashing into the sea. Those holding the strongest belief in the Santorini/Lagash crash theory speculate that some wfefsnoa of the crash, probably fossilized into rock, may still remain m the seated near the island. The VlllanI Brothers: In AD 1275 (-3243). Giovanni and Matteo Villani appeared in Florence, Italy. Their origins were unknown, however they belonged to the wealthy merchant dass and Giovanni in particular rose to play a major role in Europe's international economy. Giovanni Villani is most noted for his bookthe Cronica Universale. This work traces human history from its origins, and gives a detailed insight into the Florence of his time. This chronicle also reflects the worid was that of the counting house, the f 0'j city hall, and the public square. He and 0 i his brother were every inch merchants. But more than this, they exhibited every characteristic traditional to Sharurshid.
However, several scholars speculate that perhaps the Vilani brothers were Vilani. Possibly they were traders voyaging along the rimward frontier of the Sharurshid bureau's territory in search of new business opportunities, and found themselves stranded on a primitive but developing Terra. By this time the First Empire had reached its maximum expansion, and the nearest Vilani controlled worid was only a few parsecs to coreward. To this day, no ; one knows the Villani's exact origin or the year of their birth. Could they have come from the stars? I Artifacts from this period in Terra's history still survive, preserved by families or museums. Scholars, at AAB are hopeful that relics of the Villani brothers may in truth prove to be Vilani. The information on which these papers are basedparticularly the possible relationship between the Vilani and Sumerian languageshas long been on file within the AAB on Viand. That this knowledge was not distributed until now suggests a mechanism within the Third Imperium's bureaucracy might have suppressed it. The surge of interest in this topic also comes with a large measure of frustration. Many of the ideas offered by scholars can potentially be confirmed on Terra. Unfortunately, the routes to that world, the birth place of humaniti. have closed indefinitely. (Note: Terrence Mclnnes is the author of MagaTravellerAliens)
Above is Copyright GDW(c)
Andrew Boulton
August 26th, 2004, 11:57 AM
"The Vilani have also mastered the secrets of longevity"
No, it's totally natural. Vilani biotech is relatively primitive.
No, it's totally natural. Vilani biotech is relatively primitive.
BrennanHawkwood
August 26th, 2004, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Proof of Ancients genetic modification?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />although the H. erectus brain is configured somewhat differently than our own.from the Homo erectus entry in the link above.
So did the Ancients transport "humans" from Earth and then modify them, or did they experiment with them on Earth first??? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Another possibility is that some characteristic or set of characteristics developing in the new branch of early humans may have been what caught the Ancient's eye.
Proof of Ancients genetic modification?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />although the H. erectus brain is configured somewhat differently than our own.from the Homo erectus entry in the link above.
So did the Ancients transport "humans" from Earth and then modify them, or did they experiment with them on Earth first??? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]Another possibility is that some characteristic or set of characteristics developing in the new branch of early humans may have been what caught the Ancient's eye.
jchurchill
August 26th, 2004, 01:14 PM
I went back last night and looked at Mega-T Encyclopedia and did note that Vilani interbred with Terrans to the point where they are almost indistinguishable. Also noted the 300,000 BC date for "sampling" of human specimens so that disrupts the idea of Babylonians --- My confusion stemmed from the use of Sumerian and Babylonian names in CT.
2 bits of heresy that I might suggest for modifying the TU timeline:
1. Have the Ancients take human samples much later in time --say 10,000 to 20,000 BC -- this would account for certain Chariots of the Gods effects and would explain why the Vilani use Sumerian language.
2. A blatant rip-off of "Childhood's End" but I picture/present the Ancients as much larger than the Droyne -- as in Childhood's End they are basically gargoyles.
2 bits of heresy that I might suggest for modifying the TU timeline:
1. Have the Ancients take human samples much later in time --say 10,000 to 20,000 BC -- this would account for certain Chariots of the Gods effects and would explain why the Vilani use Sumerian language.
2. A blatant rip-off of "Childhood's End" but I picture/present the Ancients as much larger than the Droyne -- as in Childhood's End they are basically gargoyles.
Andrew Boulton
August 26th, 2004, 01:59 PM
The Ancients wiped themselves out c.300,000 years ago, long before any kind of Terran human civilisation.
jchurchill
August 26th, 2004, 02:16 PM
The Ancients wiped themselves out c.300,000 years ago, long before any kind of Terran human civilisation.
================================================
Yes I know. My suggestion is a non-canon heresy. I wander away from canon for purposes of storyline or common sense. Not cricket I know but what is these days.
================================================
Yes I know. My suggestion is a non-canon heresy. I wander away from canon for purposes of storyline or common sense. Not cricket I know but what is these days.
kafka47
August 26th, 2004, 05:29 PM
I went back last night and looked at Mega-T Encyclopedia and did note that Vilani interbred with Terrans to the point where they are almost indistinguishable. Also noted the 300,000 BC date for "sampling" of human specimens so that disrupts the idea of Babylonians --- My confusion stemmed from the use of Sumerian and Babylonian names in CTStill see my original post regarding GDW's attempt to reconcile the pre-First Contact with some of the DGP products. Maybe, Milieu: Interstellar Wars will shed more light on pre-contact.
rancke
August 27th, 2004, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Also bear in mind that really, 300,000 years ago there probably weren't any Homo Sapiens around - it was all Homo Erectus, IIRC. I dunno if anyone knew this when Traveller was first written though, so it may just be one of those things that one has to suspend disbelief over.The date when archaic Homo sapiens showed up is in dispute here in the Real World. Back around 1980 300,000 BC was considered a good guess. An anthropological textbook that I consulted a few years ago put the date around 150,000 BC, but M. Lloyd (who is some sort of anthropologist or paleontologist -- I'm not quite sure what) says that the dispute is still going on and that 300,000 BC is by no means ruled out.
All that to the side, the Traveller Universe is not the Real Universe. In the TU there is an extra bit of evidence that we don't have in the Real World, namely the fact that dozens of populations whose latest common ancestors lived 300,000 years ago is, in fact, interfertile. IMO that proves that in the TU archaic Homo sapiens - what GT:Humaniti calls Homo sapiens antiquus - did exist 300,000 years ago, whatever the case may be in the Real World.
Hans
Also bear in mind that really, 300,000 years ago there probably weren't any Homo Sapiens around - it was all Homo Erectus, IIRC. I dunno if anyone knew this when Traveller was first written though, so it may just be one of those things that one has to suspend disbelief over.The date when archaic Homo sapiens showed up is in dispute here in the Real World. Back around 1980 300,000 BC was considered a good guess. An anthropological textbook that I consulted a few years ago put the date around 150,000 BC, but M. Lloyd (who is some sort of anthropologist or paleontologist -- I'm not quite sure what) says that the dispute is still going on and that 300,000 BC is by no means ruled out.
All that to the side, the Traveller Universe is not the Real Universe. In the TU there is an extra bit of evidence that we don't have in the Real World, namely the fact that dozens of populations whose latest common ancestors lived 300,000 years ago is, in fact, interfertile. IMO that proves that in the TU archaic Homo sapiens - what GT:Humaniti calls Homo sapiens antiquus - did exist 300,000 years ago, whatever the case may be in the Real World.
Hans
kafka47
August 27th, 2004, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
The Ancients wiped themselves out c.300,000 years ago, long before any kind of Terran human civilisation. Of course, that is if you think of the Ancients as a singular civilization of super-Droyne over chartered space. My take is to take Ancients in the plural therefore, there were numerous civilizations present in -3000000. These would include super-powered humans (which Marc has endorsed) as well as more primative TL 15 civilizations.
It is only natural that the remanents of these civilizations could have visit Terra, not so much to kidnap humans but perhaps have other purposes only known to them.
Furthermore, there is no recorded human civilization on Terra but there is nothing to say that the traces of another civilization was not wiped out during the Final War.
The Ancients wiped themselves out c.300,000 years ago, long before any kind of Terran human civilisation. Of course, that is if you think of the Ancients as a singular civilization of super-Droyne over chartered space. My take is to take Ancients in the plural therefore, there were numerous civilizations present in -3000000. These would include super-powered humans (which Marc has endorsed) as well as more primative TL 15 civilizations.
It is only natural that the remanents of these civilizations could have visit Terra, not so much to kidnap humans but perhaps have other purposes only known to them.
Furthermore, there is no recorded human civilization on Terra but there is nothing to say that the traces of another civilization was not wiped out during the Final War.
jatay3
September 10th, 2004, 01:35 AM
That could be kinda fun in a way. Ever read "Encounter With Tiber" by Buzz Aldrin (and someone else I think)? In that an alien humanoid race land on Earth a few thousand years in the fertile crescent that ends up being worshipped by the locals. And all those wacky biblical things (like Ezekiel's chariot of fire, and the big pillar of fire that's seen somewhere) are things like shuttles crashing or motherships desperately trying to stay aloft.
----------------------------------------------
Perhaps I am getting offended too easily. However I might note that you have no way of knowing that the "wacky" things in the Bible did not happen just as described. Don't say the people who wrote the Bible were "ignorant savages who didn't know such things were impossible". Of course they knew such things were impossible in the normal course of nature, that is why they felt them worthy of note: they were highly unusual events. The writers believed rather in the possibility of divine intervention superseeding the normal course of nature. There is not, and one cannot see the possibility of there ever being any way of testing whether such intervention is possible(I suppose someone could commit suicide but then he couldn't report his findings very easily).
In any case a large number of the people here do believe such things literally took place, or have relatives that do, and would find making Elijah's chariot into a Vilani ship highly offensive. A GM must sometimes respect his players sensibilities. Even when he thinks them "wacky".
----------------------------------------------
Perhaps I am getting offended too easily. However I might note that you have no way of knowing that the "wacky" things in the Bible did not happen just as described. Don't say the people who wrote the Bible were "ignorant savages who didn't know such things were impossible". Of course they knew such things were impossible in the normal course of nature, that is why they felt them worthy of note: they were highly unusual events. The writers believed rather in the possibility of divine intervention superseeding the normal course of nature. There is not, and one cannot see the possibility of there ever being any way of testing whether such intervention is possible(I suppose someone could commit suicide but then he couldn't report his findings very easily).
In any case a large number of the people here do believe such things literally took place, or have relatives that do, and would find making Elijah's chariot into a Vilani ship highly offensive. A GM must sometimes respect his players sensibilities. Even when he thinks them "wacky".
Malenfant
September 10th, 2004, 02:10 AM
I call them "wacky" in the sense of having no interpretation that fits with what is known at the time (other than - funnily enough - flying vehicles, unusual volcanic eruptions or other such strangeness).
My own opinion is that a lot of the strange events in the bible (if they really did happen) read more like a technologically advanced civilisation intervening in the development of a primitive one. Indeed, I dare say if we were to go back in time a few thousand years with nuclear weapons (annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah), fighter planes (Elijah's Chariot), flamethrowers (the burning bush) and megaphones (general Voice From On High) then I dare say we could duplicate many of the events described in the bible by onlookers who didn't have any reference for what they were observing.
That can't be proven either way of course, but then neither can the biblical explanation of divine beings and the wrath of god. If you take offence at that interpretation then I apologise, but then the book is rather open to interpretation on these matters.
My own opinion is that a lot of the strange events in the bible (if they really did happen) read more like a technologically advanced civilisation intervening in the development of a primitive one. Indeed, I dare say if we were to go back in time a few thousand years with nuclear weapons (annihilation of Sodom and Gomorrah), fighter planes (Elijah's Chariot), flamethrowers (the burning bush) and megaphones (general Voice From On High) then I dare say we could duplicate many of the events described in the bible by onlookers who didn't have any reference for what they were observing.
That can't be proven either way of course, but then neither can the biblical explanation of divine beings and the wrath of god. If you take offence at that interpretation then I apologise, but then the book is rather open to interpretation on these matters.
Andrew Boulton
September 10th, 2004, 10:40 AM
There've been several TV shows over the last few years that have suggested plausible natural explanations for a lot of these "wacky" biblical events.
eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml
eg http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/sodom_gomorrah_01.shtml
jatay3
September 10th, 2004, 01:24 PM
There've been several TV shows over the last few years that have suggested plausible natural explanations for a lot of these "wacky" biblical events.
-----------------------------------------
several of which have been considerably less probable, then the original version. I heard one that said that the walls of jerico came tumbling down because of the sonic waves from the trumpets, which is another way of saying that they just huffed and puffed and blew them down. I find the Vilani vistors easier to believe!
Be that as it may my real annoyance is with the word "wacky", which I find slightly insulting. Many of the smartest people in human history believed in those things(and still do, try to take on a trained apoligist-arguer-from any decent seminary; at a debating table and you will find a challenge).
On the other hand I can't complain to much as I sometimes call others wacky( and indeed did a little earlier).
But I do get irritated at having my faith called "wacky". I'm really not supposed to-that is matching "railing for railing"(in modern English, returning insults). But here I am.
Anyway I expect a lot of people are tired of this and want to get back to Traveller.
-----------------------------------------
several of which have been considerably less probable, then the original version. I heard one that said that the walls of jerico came tumbling down because of the sonic waves from the trumpets, which is another way of saying that they just huffed and puffed and blew them down. I find the Vilani vistors easier to believe!
Be that as it may my real annoyance is with the word "wacky", which I find slightly insulting. Many of the smartest people in human history believed in those things(and still do, try to take on a trained apoligist-arguer-from any decent seminary; at a debating table and you will find a challenge).
On the other hand I can't complain to much as I sometimes call others wacky( and indeed did a little earlier).
But I do get irritated at having my faith called "wacky". I'm really not supposed to-that is matching "railing for railing"(in modern English, returning insults). But here I am.
Anyway I expect a lot of people are tired of this and want to get back to Traveller.
Andrew Boulton
September 10th, 2004, 03:04 PM
"Hey, buddy, we're Christians, and we don't like what you said."
"So then forgive me."
- Bill Hicks
(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
"So then forgive me."
- Bill Hicks
(Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Baron Saarthuran
September 10th, 2004, 08:29 PM
(Rimshot)
Malenfant
September 12th, 2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by jatay3:
But I do get irritated at having my faith called "wacky".[/QB]Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". :rolleyes:
I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
But I do get irritated at having my faith called "wacky".[/QB]Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". :rolleyes:
I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
Spinward Scout
September 12th, 2004, 08:06 AM
Malenfant, could you give me some examples of what you are talking about?
Thanks,
Scout
Thanks,
Scout
Malenfant
September 12th, 2004, 12:06 PM
well, the odd stuff like Elijah's flying chariot, the pillar of fire, the razing of Sodom, the burning bush, voices from on high, angels talking to people, going up the mountain to get the commandments, etc.
I'm aware that some natural explanations have been offered for some of those events and I'm more inclined to believe those (but keep in mind that just because there IS an obvious natural explanation, it doesn't mean that actually happened), but all the talk of "angels" and "voices from on high" sounds suspiciously to me like intervention from an advanced race attempting to guide our evolution. But coupled with all those rock paintings and carvings in South America showing what have been interpreted as showing gods that look like spacemen and flying vehicles, and it starts to look very fishy.
I've no more evidence that this may have been the case than anyone else of course (or even that many of those events happened), it's just a thought. smile.gif
But just assume that it is true for a moment: How would we react if we discovered solid evidence that we had been visited by aliens in the past who had influenced our history in such a strong way. What would such a race's motivations be? Was there more than one race giving us different "gospels" at different stages between 1000 to 2000 years ago? Are we turning out how they planned? How would we react if we made contact with aliens and discovered that they were in fact "angels"? How would we react if all we found of their civilisation was ruins?
I'm aware that some natural explanations have been offered for some of those events and I'm more inclined to believe those (but keep in mind that just because there IS an obvious natural explanation, it doesn't mean that actually happened), but all the talk of "angels" and "voices from on high" sounds suspiciously to me like intervention from an advanced race attempting to guide our evolution. But coupled with all those rock paintings and carvings in South America showing what have been interpreted as showing gods that look like spacemen and flying vehicles, and it starts to look very fishy.
I've no more evidence that this may have been the case than anyone else of course (or even that many of those events happened), it's just a thought. smile.gif
But just assume that it is true for a moment: How would we react if we discovered solid evidence that we had been visited by aliens in the past who had influenced our history in such a strong way. What would such a race's motivations be? Was there more than one race giving us different "gospels" at different stages between 1000 to 2000 years ago? Are we turning out how they planned? How would we react if we made contact with aliens and discovered that they were in fact "angels"? How would we react if all we found of their civilisation was ruins?
robject
September 12th, 2004, 10:58 PM
If they left solid evidence, then that would make them very irresponsible influences, and would more likely than not cause Earth civilization to self-destruct. I think. This from what I remember about advanced-tech human groups showing up on the doorstep of primitive-tech human groups. The result is usually the destruction or degradation of the more primitive-tech group.
Or am I generalizing?
Shalena in bagaan. We come in peace, and not to enslave you.
Or am I generalizing?
Shalena in bagaan. We come in peace, and not to enslave you.
jatay3
September 13th, 2004, 02:38 PM
The result is usually the destruction or degradation of the more primitive-tech group.
Or am I generalizing?
--------------------------------------------------
You are generalizing.
When differing cultures interact they are almost inevitably both changed. It is not inevitable that the more primitive group is destroyed or degraded. In fact as I remember Adam Smith believed that until his time the more primative group had generrally had the advantage.
When the Romans came to Europe the result was both good and bad for the locals. The bad part is fairly obvious "they make a dessert and call it peace"-Tacitus. There was also plenty of good: the usual roads, bridges, Pax Romanna, etc. European society was changed beyond recognition. However it is a stretch to say that a Western society that can reach the moon, create the internet, and eliminate mass famine and mass plague from large parts of the world is a "degradation" from the society before. We would not be what we are without Rome, Greece, the Jews, and less directly, the Arabs, the (Asian)Indians and the Chinese.
There are other possible results. Rome was to a large degree degraded by it's contact with the Germanics in a most direct manner when the Goths sacked Rome. China, which for many centuries had the highest tech level in the world certainly didn't degrade, or destroy the Mongols(until comparitively recently), and we all know what the Mongols did to China.
Even the fammiliar examples, like the Native Americans, always have exceptions. The Plains Indians actually got a bounce in power and influence for several generations by acquiring the horse from the Spaniards.
However in any case there is a problem as positively overwhelming technological differences seldom took place until the last few centuries. When there was a difference it was in a few key areas such as iron, or sailing ships(I deliberatly leave out gunpowder as I think the advantage the Europeans had is exaggeratted: Asians had muskets and cannon too, and North American Indians had thick forests which tended to negate the advantage somewhat).
One thing that is left out is cultural organization. The difference between tools "hardware" is seldom as great as the difference in culteral organization "software". Caesar conquered Gaul not because the "gladius" shortsword was so superior to the Gauls swords, but because the leigion was so superior to the warband. Overwhelming organizational superiority certainly existed many times in the past. When contact occured there were a number of possible results.
Or am I generalizing?
--------------------------------------------------
You are generalizing.
When differing cultures interact they are almost inevitably both changed. It is not inevitable that the more primitive group is destroyed or degraded. In fact as I remember Adam Smith believed that until his time the more primative group had generrally had the advantage.
When the Romans came to Europe the result was both good and bad for the locals. The bad part is fairly obvious "they make a dessert and call it peace"-Tacitus. There was also plenty of good: the usual roads, bridges, Pax Romanna, etc. European society was changed beyond recognition. However it is a stretch to say that a Western society that can reach the moon, create the internet, and eliminate mass famine and mass plague from large parts of the world is a "degradation" from the society before. We would not be what we are without Rome, Greece, the Jews, and less directly, the Arabs, the (Asian)Indians and the Chinese.
There are other possible results. Rome was to a large degree degraded by it's contact with the Germanics in a most direct manner when the Goths sacked Rome. China, which for many centuries had the highest tech level in the world certainly didn't degrade, or destroy the Mongols(until comparitively recently), and we all know what the Mongols did to China.
Even the fammiliar examples, like the Native Americans, always have exceptions. The Plains Indians actually got a bounce in power and influence for several generations by acquiring the horse from the Spaniards.
However in any case there is a problem as positively overwhelming technological differences seldom took place until the last few centuries. When there was a difference it was in a few key areas such as iron, or sailing ships(I deliberatly leave out gunpowder as I think the advantage the Europeans had is exaggeratted: Asians had muskets and cannon too, and North American Indians had thick forests which tended to negate the advantage somewhat).
One thing that is left out is cultural organization. The difference between tools "hardware" is seldom as great as the difference in culteral organization "software". Caesar conquered Gaul not because the "gladius" shortsword was so superior to the Gauls swords, but because the leigion was so superior to the warband. Overwhelming organizational superiority certainly existed many times in the past. When contact occured there were a number of possible results.
jatay3
September 13th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]
I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
---------------------------------------
Of course they were "unusual" that is why they were recorded.
In any case it would have been more diplomatic to say "unusual" in the first place.
And by the way the
"Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]"
line seems to give an air of, "there, there it's OK". On the other hand it is hard to talk to someone with a different worldview without sounding condescending sometimes. I have had that problem myself.
I regard things like this(including the Bible) as very important and do not see the Church as a mere alternative to staying home and watching football.To insult the Bible is to insult an important part of my faith.
But this getting unpleasant. I can see why Traveller warned about letting religious discussion into the game.
I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
---------------------------------------
Of course they were "unusual" that is why they were recorded.
In any case it would have been more diplomatic to say "unusual" in the first place.
And by the way the
"Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]"
line seems to give an air of, "there, there it's OK". On the other hand it is hard to talk to someone with a different worldview without sounding condescending sometimes. I have had that problem myself.
I regard things like this(including the Bible) as very important and do not see the Church as a mere alternative to staying home and watching football.To insult the Bible is to insult an important part of my faith.
But this getting unpleasant. I can see why Traveller warned about letting religious discussion into the game.
jatay3
September 13th, 2004, 03:05 PM
On the other hand I can accept that that was not intended as a direct insult to me. Nor was it intended as an insult to my faith(God can take care of himself-and if he got mad over every minor or accidental irreverance we would all be in trouble).
I doubt you meant to offend.
I doubt you meant to offend.
DaveChase
September 13th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Sounds like the new Geico commericals talking about cavemen.
And I don't mean to offend but it is a funny series of 3 commericals.
Dave
And I don't mean to offend but it is a funny series of 3 commericals.
Dave
jchurchill
September 13th, 2004, 03:49 PM
Personally, I've never had the fortune to converse with a burning bush. Just as much as some here deeply believe in the bible there are also many of us who regard the bible as a remarkable collection of stories and philosophical parables that carry as much weight as the myths of the ancient Greeks, the Eygptians, the Vikings, the Chinese, etc etc. Fascinating and fun to read but not literally true.
I suppose those of us with this opposing view could get our knickers in a twist but what's the point? If Malefant wants to run his game based in a way that explains biblical events as the result of scientific intervention then that is his right and it may offend you but you are still free to believe what you believe.
I'll make a deal with you. I won't come to your house and ridicule your beliefs if you won't come to my house to tell me what to believe.
I suppose those of us with this opposing view could get our knickers in a twist but what's the point? If Malefant wants to run his game based in a way that explains biblical events as the result of scientific intervention then that is his right and it may offend you but you are still free to believe what you believe.
I'll make a deal with you. I won't come to your house and ridicule your beliefs if you won't come to my house to tell me what to believe.
jatay3
September 13th, 2004, 06:16 PM
I'll make a deal with you. I won't come to your house and ridicule your beliefs if you won't come to my house to tell me what to believe.
--------------------------------------------
That depends on what you mean "tell you what to believe". I have never understood the complaint people have with proselyters-as I said once earplugs aren't all that expensive. The ones I have seen(often Watchtowers, Mormons, and even Buddists, despite the fact that from what I know they don't go in for that as much) tend to be nice amiable people who would never knowingly hurt anyone. But I hardly intend to "go to your house", nor for better or for worse do I flaggerently show off my faith much(except in philisopophical debates where that is expected). I usually talk this way on the net only when conversational trend heads that way. In any case telling others what to believe is to some degree a natural coralary of believeing something-if something is believed to be true-does anyone believe what they believe to be false?-(and even reletiveists believe in their belief that it is true that their is no truth, however they manage to explain that), than it follows that someone else would be better off "know" what one "knows" oneself. Exchange of information is a net improvment to society-not even thinking about the next world. However yes it can be obnoxious at times and I hardly wish to be obnoxious.
As a by the way, I have never told the net before but I have had "unusual" things happen to me. Not in the "it-must-be-true-or-i-must-be-nuts" category. However several times I have misplaced something, prayed that I would find it and then found it a second later. Too often to dismiss it as chance. A psychologist might say that my prayer simply pushed some unconscious "search button" in my brain(though I often think that shrinks have more than a bit of "wackiness" about them-even as I am annoyed at being called wacky. Go figure.). Or he might say that I was conditioned to expect it by habit. Whatever.
As I said it cannot be proven whether or not supernatural intervention is possible. The "Vulcan" types who think that reason is the begining of wisdom are as wrong as the reletivists who think reason is meaningless. Ones worldview depends on something besides reason.
Thus:
All Vargr are treacherous
Dhurzader is a Vargr
Therefore Dhurzader is treacherous
is wrong. We know by observation that many Vargr are treacherous. We assume that it is more common than among Humanati-by observations taken of only a part of the Vargr population. We don't know that ALL Vargr are treacherous. Therefore whether or not we believe Dhurzader before we meet him to be treacherous depends on how we view Vargr. Or whether we think it moral to have such expectations at all.
Likewise we know that miracles are unusual. Whether or not we believe them impossible depends on our belief. Some will desperatly hold on to the most outragous theories-anything but admit the possibility of a miracle. In other words they prefer an explanation that is known to be nearly impossible, to one whose probibility cannot be guessed because their worldview dictates it. They depend on faith as much as anyone else.
But I like to debate too much. Am I droning on? Don't worry I am happy to quit now.
--------------------------------------------
That depends on what you mean "tell you what to believe". I have never understood the complaint people have with proselyters-as I said once earplugs aren't all that expensive. The ones I have seen(often Watchtowers, Mormons, and even Buddists, despite the fact that from what I know they don't go in for that as much) tend to be nice amiable people who would never knowingly hurt anyone. But I hardly intend to "go to your house", nor for better or for worse do I flaggerently show off my faith much(except in philisopophical debates where that is expected). I usually talk this way on the net only when conversational trend heads that way. In any case telling others what to believe is to some degree a natural coralary of believeing something-if something is believed to be true-does anyone believe what they believe to be false?-(and even reletiveists believe in their belief that it is true that their is no truth, however they manage to explain that), than it follows that someone else would be better off "know" what one "knows" oneself. Exchange of information is a net improvment to society-not even thinking about the next world. However yes it can be obnoxious at times and I hardly wish to be obnoxious.
As a by the way, I have never told the net before but I have had "unusual" things happen to me. Not in the "it-must-be-true-or-i-must-be-nuts" category. However several times I have misplaced something, prayed that I would find it and then found it a second later. Too often to dismiss it as chance. A psychologist might say that my prayer simply pushed some unconscious "search button" in my brain(though I often think that shrinks have more than a bit of "wackiness" about them-even as I am annoyed at being called wacky. Go figure.). Or he might say that I was conditioned to expect it by habit. Whatever.
As I said it cannot be proven whether or not supernatural intervention is possible. The "Vulcan" types who think that reason is the begining of wisdom are as wrong as the reletivists who think reason is meaningless. Ones worldview depends on something besides reason.
Thus:
All Vargr are treacherous
Dhurzader is a Vargr
Therefore Dhurzader is treacherous
is wrong. We know by observation that many Vargr are treacherous. We assume that it is more common than among Humanati-by observations taken of only a part of the Vargr population. We don't know that ALL Vargr are treacherous. Therefore whether or not we believe Dhurzader before we meet him to be treacherous depends on how we view Vargr. Or whether we think it moral to have such expectations at all.
Likewise we know that miracles are unusual. Whether or not we believe them impossible depends on our belief. Some will desperatly hold on to the most outragous theories-anything but admit the possibility of a miracle. In other words they prefer an explanation that is known to be nearly impossible, to one whose probibility cannot be guessed because their worldview dictates it. They depend on faith as much as anyone else.
But I like to debate too much. Am I droning on? Don't worry I am happy to quit now.
Malenfant
September 13th, 2004, 06:54 PM
For crying out loud, I'm sorry I mentioned the darned book (Encounter with Tiber) in the first place. Sheesh.
Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith. I am not remotely religious myself (I'm a pretty hardcore scientist actually. There's no room in my universe for faith in "higher powers" particularly given what I know of mankind's irrelevance in the universe at large in both time and space), but regardless of what I think of it I don't go round just insulting people for what they believe. And in this case, I insulted nobody. I merely pointed out that some of the events in the bible were "wacky". Maybe that was the wrong word to use, but either way there are many events described therein that are unusual (assuming they happened at all). That's all I was saying, and I'd very be surprised if anyone in this day and age disagreed with that assessment. I do think however that if you take any comment or questionmark over any of the events in the bible as an insult then you really are not the best person to be discussing them in a public forum.
I did not say that you were wacky for believing it, or that your faith was wacky. If you're offended by my possible alternative interpretation of events then I'm sorry, but I offer it as an alternative that may be appropriate in the Traveller setting given the interventions of other races in human evolution. Either way, no offence was intended. I hope I have made myself clear enough for you here.
Now do we think we could kinda get back on topic, please?! (or at least, move this to Random Static where it belongs)
Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith. I am not remotely religious myself (I'm a pretty hardcore scientist actually. There's no room in my universe for faith in "higher powers" particularly given what I know of mankind's irrelevance in the universe at large in both time and space), but regardless of what I think of it I don't go round just insulting people for what they believe. And in this case, I insulted nobody. I merely pointed out that some of the events in the bible were "wacky". Maybe that was the wrong word to use, but either way there are many events described therein that are unusual (assuming they happened at all). That's all I was saying, and I'd very be surprised if anyone in this day and age disagreed with that assessment. I do think however that if you take any comment or questionmark over any of the events in the bible as an insult then you really are not the best person to be discussing them in a public forum.
I did not say that you were wacky for believing it, or that your faith was wacky. If you're offended by my possible alternative interpretation of events then I'm sorry, but I offer it as an alternative that may be appropriate in the Traveller setting given the interventions of other races in human evolution. Either way, no offence was intended. I hope I have made myself clear enough for you here.
Now do we think we could kinda get back on topic, please?! (or at least, move this to Random Static where it belongs)
jatay3
September 13th, 2004, 07:00 PM
The ones I have seen(often Watchtowers, Mormons, and even Buddists, despite the fact that from what I know they don't go in for that as much) tend to be nice amiable people who would never knowingly hurt anyone.
-----------------------------------------------
I should say wouldn't WIllINGLY hurt anyone, not knowingly. The Mormans I understand, have a mildly warlike reputation as befits the tamers of Utah, and many of them have served the Republic in battle quite gallantly. Watchtowers are of course pacifists, so I can't say the last about them. I hardly want to be taken to imply that just because these people are nice, I think them babies. As a matter of fact I admire the dedication of many of those people though I think them to be erring. But they would probably think me erring as someone no doubt notes.
Yes I said I wanted to quit, but first I want to make sure I didn't come off as patronizing toward others.
-----------------------------------------------
I should say wouldn't WIllINGLY hurt anyone, not knowingly. The Mormans I understand, have a mildly warlike reputation as befits the tamers of Utah, and many of them have served the Republic in battle quite gallantly. Watchtowers are of course pacifists, so I can't say the last about them. I hardly want to be taken to imply that just because these people are nice, I think them babies. As a matter of fact I admire the dedication of many of those people though I think them to be erring. But they would probably think me erring as someone no doubt notes.
Yes I said I wanted to quit, but first I want to make sure I didn't come off as patronizing toward others.
Keklas Rekobah
September 13th, 2004, 09:06 PM
Gentlesophonts,
For your reference, I submit the name of an old Terran, oft cited as the foremost expert of his time in 'Alien' visitations and interventions.
Erich von Däniken, born -2315 (1935ce). He seemed to have faded into obscurity after founding an amusement park in -2246 (2004ce), as there is no record of his death in the Vilani Historical Archives. Some of his books were:
Chariots of the Gods -2283 (1968ce)
Gods from Outer Space -2281 (1970ce)
The Gold of the Gods -2280 (1972ce)
In Search of Ancient Gods -2279 (1973ce)
Miracles of the Gods -2278 (1974ce)
Signs of the Gods -2273 (1979ce)
Pathways to the Gods -2269 (1981ce)
The Eyes of the Sphinx -2254 (1996ce)
The Return of the Gods - Evidence of Extraterrestrial Visitations. -2253 (1997ce)
Odyssey of the Gods - An Alien History of Ancient Greece. -2250 (2000ce)
I don't know if I have the dates converted correctly, as ancient Solomani history is not my field.
-KR
For your reference, I submit the name of an old Terran, oft cited as the foremost expert of his time in 'Alien' visitations and interventions.
Erich von Däniken, born -2315 (1935ce). He seemed to have faded into obscurity after founding an amusement park in -2246 (2004ce), as there is no record of his death in the Vilani Historical Archives. Some of his books were:
Chariots of the Gods -2283 (1968ce)
Gods from Outer Space -2281 (1970ce)
The Gold of the Gods -2280 (1972ce)
In Search of Ancient Gods -2279 (1973ce)
Miracles of the Gods -2278 (1974ce)
Signs of the Gods -2273 (1979ce)
Pathways to the Gods -2269 (1981ce)
The Eyes of the Sphinx -2254 (1996ce)
The Return of the Gods - Evidence of Extraterrestrial Visitations. -2253 (1997ce)
Odyssey of the Gods - An Alien History of Ancient Greece. -2250 (2000ce)
I don't know if I have the dates converted correctly, as ancient Solomani history is not my field.
-KR
Malenfant
September 13th, 2004, 09:49 PM
You forgot:
"Return of the Land Beneath the Revenge of the Gods"
Oh wait, am I getting confused with the Planet of the Apes movies? ;)
"Return of the Land Beneath the Revenge of the Gods"
Oh wait, am I getting confused with the Planet of the Apes movies? ;)
hunter
September 14th, 2004, 10:21 PM
Jatay, you are taking too much offense. Seriously. Malenfant can be abrasive occasionally (love ya guy!) but he really is a good chap. I don't think he has meant anything personal against you in anything he's posted.
The reality of the bible aside, the idea of space travellers using their technology to set themselves up as gods to a less advanced races is cool. Hmmm...nice adventure possibilities there. PCs vs the 'gods'!
Hunter
The reality of the bible aside, the idea of space travellers using their technology to set themselves up as gods to a less advanced races is cool. Hmmm...nice adventure possibilities there. PCs vs the 'gods'!
Hunter
Malenfant
September 14th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Thanks, Hunter :D
Actually, I'm kinda thinking that an entire primitive population vs "PCs as Gods" might be interesting too ;) .
In fact, if you did use fairly blatant biblical analogies in such a scenario (use repulsors to part an ocean, lasers to fry hapless trees to cow the locals, loudspeakers to address your subjects, etc), it might even get the players to think about the events described in the bible somewhat differently...
Actually, I'm kinda thinking that an entire primitive population vs "PCs as Gods" might be interesting too ;) .
In fact, if you did use fairly blatant biblical analogies in such a scenario (use repulsors to part an ocean, lasers to fry hapless trees to cow the locals, loudspeakers to address your subjects, etc), it might even get the players to think about the events described in the bible somewhat differently...
RainOfSteel
September 15th, 2004, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
You forgot:
"Return of the Land Beneath the Revenge of the Gods"
Oh wait, am I getting confused with the Planet of the Apes movies? ;) graemlins/file_21.gif
Yup, I classify that entire series in the same category you do, apparently.
You forgot:
"Return of the Land Beneath the Revenge of the Gods"
Oh wait, am I getting confused with the Planet of the Apes movies? ;) graemlins/file_21.gif
Yup, I classify that entire series in the same category you do, apparently.
brudin
September 15th, 2004, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by jatay3:
Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]
I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
---------------------------------------
Of course they were "unusual" that is why they were recorded.
In any case it would have been more diplomatic to say "unusual" in the first place.
And by the way the
"Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]"
line seems to give an air of, "there, there it's OK". On the other hand it is hard to talk to someone with a different worldview without sounding condescending sometimes. I have had that problem myself.
I regard things like this(including the Bible) as very important and do not see the Church as a mere alternative to staying home and watching football.To insult the Bible is to insult an important part of my faith.
But this getting unpleasant. I can see why Traveller warned about letting religious discussion into the game. err, you say bible (then christian religion) but you forgot this book was writen by monk in latin in 1000 ad with some reference from a book traduct in greek called torrah ;) . (by the way i am catholic and if i am not priest it's because i made too much research on some texts ;) )
just for example: in evrit (modern hebrew language) , they say literally "fire's chariot" for the word fusee (they get it in the torrah).
Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]
I merely described some of the events in the bible as such because they were very unusual.
---------------------------------------
Of course they were "unusual" that is why they were recorded.
In any case it would have been more diplomatic to say "unusual" in the first place.
And by the way the
"Er, nobody called your faith "wacky". [Roll Eyes]"
line seems to give an air of, "there, there it's OK". On the other hand it is hard to talk to someone with a different worldview without sounding condescending sometimes. I have had that problem myself.
I regard things like this(including the Bible) as very important and do not see the Church as a mere alternative to staying home and watching football.To insult the Bible is to insult an important part of my faith.
But this getting unpleasant. I can see why Traveller warned about letting religious discussion into the game. err, you say bible (then christian religion) but you forgot this book was writen by monk in latin in 1000 ad with some reference from a book traduct in greek called torrah ;) . (by the way i am catholic and if i am not priest it's because i made too much research on some texts ;) )
just for example: in evrit (modern hebrew language) , they say literally "fire's chariot" for the word fusee (they get it in the torrah).
flykiller
September 15th, 2004, 11:16 AM
Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith.he isn't.
Malenfant
September 15th, 2004, 11:52 AM
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith.he isn't. </font>[/QUOTE]And how exactly do you figure that out so objectively?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith.he isn't. </font>[/QUOTE]And how exactly do you figure that out so objectively?
DaveChase
September 15th, 2004, 12:26 PM
What is really interesting if you have the time and mental disipline is to read the Hebrew version of the Bible before translations.
Not that I read Hebrew but I sat down with a computer program, 2 hebrew to english dicitionaries and a friend who did read modern hebrew for 2 weeks and we tore into the text.
All I can say is our version of some of the old bible stories are much different and harder (hard core) than what is in some of the other bibles you find today.
So, my point is: we all see the world differently with only a few common things that we agree to.
Yet even with those few common things we do not describe them the same way.
My favorite word to use as an example is
love
to English (primary American english) this word has many meanings
love food
love spouse
love kids
love family
love to play games
love apples
to many other non english cultures each of the above is a different word with it's own definition
Just my thoughts smile.gif
Dave
Not that I read Hebrew but I sat down with a computer program, 2 hebrew to english dicitionaries and a friend who did read modern hebrew for 2 weeks and we tore into the text.
All I can say is our version of some of the old bible stories are much different and harder (hard core) than what is in some of the other bibles you find today.
So, my point is: we all see the world differently with only a few common things that we agree to.
Yet even with those few common things we do not describe them the same way.
My favorite word to use as an example is
love
to English (primary American english) this word has many meanings
love food
love spouse
love kids
love family
love to play games
love apples
to many other non english cultures each of the above is a different word with it's own definition
Just my thoughts smile.gif
Dave
mike wightman
September 15th, 2004, 01:04 PM
If political discussion has been sidelined to the Political pulpit, is it not time for a Religious Ramblings forum??? ;)
Keklas Rekobah
September 15th, 2004, 02:49 PM
"If political discussion has been sidelined to the Political pulpit, is it not time for a Religious Ramblings forum???" - Sigg Oddra.I second the motion!
After all, religion is no more than the politics of faith.
After all, religion is no more than the politics of faith.
Malenfant
September 15th, 2004, 03:17 PM
It's not like the topic really comes up here a lot though. I do think the place has become much nicer now that the politics have been shunted out of the way.
If anything though, discussion about religion is more volatile even than current political ones are. As this thread has illustrated, it's so much easier to end up offending someone, even if offence wasn't intended.
Ideally this should be in Random Static, but as it is, Hunter shut down the other thread that started there pretty much right off the bat. Maybe that means he thinks it's just safer to leave the topic well alone here?
If anything though, discussion about religion is more volatile even than current political ones are. As this thread has illustrated, it's so much easier to end up offending someone, even if offence wasn't intended.
Ideally this should be in Random Static, but as it is, Hunter shut down the other thread that started there pretty much right off the bat. Maybe that means he thinks it's just safer to leave the topic well alone here?
DaveChase
September 15th, 2004, 03:42 PM
I think that if we have discussion on religon that we should have some guidelines of what level of or direction the dicussions are allowed.
On of the most fun game that I played in we had the typical cleric/priest/minister type class and a warrior type class (talking in general here smile.gif besides some others.
What made some great amusement was that the warrior was more pious and faithful to the concepts of their religon than the cleric/priest/minister was and they were both of the same faith/religon/sect.
Religon can have such great heroes/helping hands and at the same time can be such great villians/overpowering forces to content with in a game.
BUT, It all depends on what your gamers can and will tolerate besides what your personal beliefs are.
But given a choice of not talking religon or not talking at all, I choose to not talk religon smile.gif
So, no more talking about holidays, the current calender, cursing, blessing, and a few others smile.gif
Dave
On of the most fun game that I played in we had the typical cleric/priest/minister type class and a warrior type class (talking in general here smile.gif besides some others.
What made some great amusement was that the warrior was more pious and faithful to the concepts of their religon than the cleric/priest/minister was and they were both of the same faith/religon/sect.
Religon can have such great heroes/helping hands and at the same time can be such great villians/overpowering forces to content with in a game.
BUT, It all depends on what your gamers can and will tolerate besides what your personal beliefs are.
But given a choice of not talking religon or not talking at all, I choose to not talk religon smile.gif
So, no more talking about holidays, the current calender, cursing, blessing, and a few others smile.gif
Dave
flykiller
September 15th, 2004, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith.he isn't. </font>[/QUOTE]And how exactly do you figure that out so objectively? </font>[/QUOTE]how did you?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Jatay, with all due respect I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith.he isn't. </font>[/QUOTE]And how exactly do you figure that out so objectively? </font>[/QUOTE]how did you?
Malenfant
September 15th, 2004, 04:48 PM
I don't.
Evidently you missed the I think in "I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith".
I deliberately phrased my statement as my own opinion (because that's what it is), not as objective fact. Whereas you seem to be claimiing that it is objective fact that he isn't hypersensitive.
Evidently you missed the I think in "I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith".
I deliberately phrased my statement as my own opinion (because that's what it is), not as objective fact. Whereas you seem to be claimiing that it is objective fact that he isn't hypersensitive.
Elliot
September 15th, 2004, 05:16 PM
I would like anything on 'real' world religion to go into the political pulpit as I think that more bitterness can be generated by religion than politics. In fact many of the 'political' discussions often had a religion element).
That and I think we should all be friends smile.gif
That and I think we should all be friends smile.gif
Spiderfish
September 15th, 2004, 05:56 PM
No!
No friendship now gut each other with rusty sickles!
Still I cant believe none of you have impersonated gods on a primitive world I do it all the time. I'm doing it right now.
No friendship now gut each other with rusty sickles!
Still I cant believe none of you have impersonated gods on a primitive world I do it all the time. I'm doing it right now.
robject
September 15th, 2004, 08:29 PM
Yes... and we in the Bureaux are watching you very closely, with mounting disdain.
aramis
September 15th, 2004, 09:22 PM
"Religion is the Root of ALL Politics" -somebody important as quoted by C. Frasure, JD, in a Western Civ 1 lecture
Essentially, a people's political will is USUALLY an ethical standard slightly less regid than that of their (or the ruling class's predominant) religion's ethical code, and usually a less restrictive subset.
Religion-building, as subject of science fiction, is a common theme. Religion tweaking, by extraplanetary agents, could be a powerful (if long-term) means of preparation by the IN or aven the Bureaux (Pre 3I). In fact, I'd almost expect it of the Bureaux...
And why do Ancients need to have wings? Because Angels and Devils do!
Essentially, a people's political will is USUALLY an ethical standard slightly less regid than that of their (or the ruling class's predominant) religion's ethical code, and usually a less restrictive subset.
Religion-building, as subject of science fiction, is a common theme. Religion tweaking, by extraplanetary agents, could be a powerful (if long-term) means of preparation by the IN or aven the Bureaux (Pre 3I). In fact, I'd almost expect it of the Bureaux...
And why do Ancients need to have wings? Because Angels and Devils do!
flykiller
September 15th, 2004, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
I don't.
Evidently you missed the I think in "I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith".
I deliberately phrased my statement as my own opinion (because that's what it is), not as objective fact. Whereas you seem to be claimiing that it is objective fact that he isn't hypersensitive. he isn't.
I don't.
Evidently you missed the I think in "I think you're being incredibly hypersensitive about your faith".
I deliberately phrased my statement as my own opinion (because that's what it is), not as objective fact. Whereas you seem to be claimiing that it is objective fact that he isn't hypersensitive. he isn't.
SlightlyLyons
September 15th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
The reality of the bible aside, the idea of space travellers using their technology to set themselves up as gods to a less advanced races is cool. Hmmm...nice adventure possibilities there. PCs vs the 'gods'!
Hunter Hey, wasn't that a TV show, I think they called it "Stargate". I beleve the arguement here is why they stick to Mythology for their plots.
The reality of the bible aside, the idea of space travellers using their technology to set themselves up as gods to a less advanced races is cool. Hmmm...nice adventure possibilities there. PCs vs the 'gods'!
Hunter Hey, wasn't that a TV show, I think they called it "Stargate". I beleve the arguement here is why they stick to Mythology for their plots.
SlightlyLyons
September 15th, 2004, 10:25 PM
Oh, and to drag this kicking and screaming back to the topic, what about the Anchents transplanting Neandertall as well. It would go with a plot I have floating round in my head.
Malenfant
September 16th, 2004, 02:16 AM
Here's a couple of websites on Neanderthals for ya...
http://sapphire.indstate.edu/~ramanank/
http://calvin.linfield.edu/~mrobert/origins.html
I've not found a firm grip on when Neanderthal Man was around.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/n.html
It sounds like Neanderthal Man was only present on Earth after 250,000-200,000 years ago, which means that they evolved after the Ancients died out 300,000 years ago, so they couldn't have been transplanted anywhere by them.
Homo Erectus and possibly early Homo Sapiens were present on Earth when the Ancients would have been though.
http://sapphire.indstate.edu/~ramanank/
http://calvin.linfield.edu/~mrobert/origins.html
I've not found a firm grip on when Neanderthal Man was around.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/humans/humankind/n.html
It sounds like Neanderthal Man was only present on Earth after 250,000-200,000 years ago, which means that they evolved after the Ancients died out 300,000 years ago, so they couldn't have been transplanted anywhere by them.
Homo Erectus and possibly early Homo Sapiens were present on Earth when the Ancients would have been though.
mike wightman
September 16th, 2004, 02:25 AM
Referring back to this link (http://www.wsu.edu/gened/learn-modules/top_longfor/timeline/timeline.html) if you read the neanderthal entry it notes that their arm and leg bones were twice as thick as ours, their brains were bigger than ours, and once again the brain is configured slightly differently.
As Malenfant says though, they appear to have evolved after the Ancients had left the scene, but it is close.
As Malenfant says though, they appear to have evolved after the Ancients had left the scene, but it is close.
Spiderfish
September 16th, 2004, 10:14 AM
Apparently alot of Europeans have some Neaderthal ancestry.
I saw this very interesting program on it a few years ago. They found a sort of "crossbreed" human.
I saw this very interesting program on it a few years ago. They found a sort of "crossbreed" human.
Andrew Boulton
September 16th, 2004, 10:31 AM
Still I cant believe none of you have impersonated gods on a primitive world I do it all the time. I'm doing it right now. Well, there was the CT adventure Divine Intervention.
DaveChase
September 16th, 2004, 10:58 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Malenfant:
It sounds like Neanderthal Man was only present on Earth after 250,000-200,000 years ago, which means that they evolved after the Ancients died out 300,000 years ago, so they couldn't have been transplanted anywhere by them.
Homo Erectus and possibly early Homo Sapiens were present on Earth when the Ancients would have been though. QUOTE]
Of course you are assuming that this old planet here is our true home smile.gif
OR you are forgetting that it was easier to just biowarfare the humans here into not existance and just happened to miss a few that were not affect by it bio stuff. And to not draw attention to them selves they laid low smile.gif
Dave
It sounds like Neanderthal Man was only present on Earth after 250,000-200,000 years ago, which means that they evolved after the Ancients died out 300,000 years ago, so they couldn't have been transplanted anywhere by them.
Homo Erectus and possibly early Homo Sapiens were present on Earth when the Ancients would have been though. QUOTE]
Of course you are assuming that this old planet here is our true home smile.gif
OR you are forgetting that it was easier to just biowarfare the humans here into not existance and just happened to miss a few that were not affect by it bio stuff. And to not draw attention to them selves they laid low smile.gif
Dave
Spiderfish
September 17th, 2004, 06:02 AM
Twice as thick bones as average you say? Bloody hell they must have looked like Louis Cyr...
What is the average wrist thickness nowdays though?
What is the average wrist thickness nowdays though?
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