Spinward Scout
July 27th, 2005, 09:41 PM
Hey Folks,
Every once in a while, someone says that Known Space (OTU) is too big. I mean, who's actually going to visit all 11,000 worlds of the Imperium? And then on to the rest of Known Space? So I was thinking that we could tinker a bit with this and come up with the Top 100 worlds in Known Space. Say, if someone had the time and inclination to go on a cruise, what would they want to see in each region.
Listed below are 20 major regions on the map of Known Space (I'm probably missing some) in the LBB Library Data books (as reprinted in The Classic Supplements). Now if we narrow this down to 5 worlds in each region, that would make things a lot easier to digest. The problem is, that I don't know where to find info for half of these and wouldn't know where to start in trying to decide which were the important ones. I figure all the Major Races' Homeworlds (listed below) would be on here. What else would you choose? This could work with the Themes (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000873#000000) for regions that was talked about a long while back - you could have a Theme for each region.
Let me know what worlds you would choose,
Dameon
The Imperium (The Domain of Sylea)
Capital
The Imperium (The Domain of Vland)
Vland (Vilani Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Sol)
Terra (Solomani Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Illesh)
The Imperium (The Domain of Antares)
The Imperium (The Domain of Gateway)
The Imperium (The Domain of Deneb)
The Solomani Sphere
The Aslan Hierate
Kuzu (Aslan Homeworld)
Dark Nebula
The Great Rift
The Aslan Colonies
The Vanguard Reaches
The Beyond
Reft Sector
The Zhodani Consulate
Zhodane (Zhodani Homeworld)
The Vargr Extents
Lair (Vargr Homeworld)
The Lesser Rift
The Two Thousand Worlds
Kirur (Centaur Homeworld)
The Hive Federation
Guaran (Hive Homeworld)
Every once in a while, someone says that Known Space (OTU) is too big. I mean, who's actually going to visit all 11,000 worlds of the Imperium? And then on to the rest of Known Space? So I was thinking that we could tinker a bit with this and come up with the Top 100 worlds in Known Space. Say, if someone had the time and inclination to go on a cruise, what would they want to see in each region.
Listed below are 20 major regions on the map of Known Space (I'm probably missing some) in the LBB Library Data books (as reprinted in The Classic Supplements). Now if we narrow this down to 5 worlds in each region, that would make things a lot easier to digest. The problem is, that I don't know where to find info for half of these and wouldn't know where to start in trying to decide which were the important ones. I figure all the Major Races' Homeworlds (listed below) would be on here. What else would you choose? This could work with the Themes (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000873#000000) for regions that was talked about a long while back - you could have a Theme for each region.
Let me know what worlds you would choose,
Dameon
The Imperium (The Domain of Sylea)
Capital
The Imperium (The Domain of Vland)
Vland (Vilani Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Sol)
Terra (Solomani Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Illesh)
The Imperium (The Domain of Antares)
The Imperium (The Domain of Gateway)
The Imperium (The Domain of Deneb)
The Solomani Sphere
The Aslan Hierate
Kuzu (Aslan Homeworld)
Dark Nebula
The Great Rift
The Aslan Colonies
The Vanguard Reaches
The Beyond
Reft Sector
The Zhodani Consulate
Zhodane (Zhodani Homeworld)
The Vargr Extents
Lair (Vargr Homeworld)
The Lesser Rift
The Two Thousand Worlds
Kirur (Centaur Homeworld)
The Hive Federation
Guaran (Hive Homeworld)
Spinward Scout
July 27th, 2005, 09:48 PM
This might also be a good way to get new people involved in Traveller if they see a smaller list of worlds instead of a big number like 11,000. I was also thinking that if we add 5 more regions and up the worlds per region to 10, that would give us the Top 250 Worlds of Known Space.
We should propose it as a book,
Dameon
We should propose it as a book,
Dameon
Fritz_Brown
July 28th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Or, you can go with the Proto-Traveller (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=44;t=000189#000000) concept. Which reduces the size of Known Space to a more manageable level.
daryen
July 28th, 2005, 10:04 AM
Well, within the Domain of Deneb, these are a few of the ones that pop up in my mind. (I am assuming the year 1105 for this.)
- Regina. In many ways this is the original "home" of Traveller. Also home world of the Caledon family.
- Darrian. Home world of the Darrians, with their long history. While the world is only TL 14, there are lots and lots of TL 16 artifacts still around and in use.
- Biter. Visit the famous Sword Worlds. While Gram is the original Sword World, Biter is far more friendly to Imperials.
- Glisten. The amazing TL 15 society built in a worldless system. It has massive navy and scout bases, huge shipyards, unrivaled learning centers and univeristies, and tons of other attractions.
- Deneb. Longtime home of the region's government. Hosts massive learning institutes, including the Jump Space Institute. Also, it orbits a massive star, and it shouldn't even exist as it does. Seeing that unique setup should be quite interesting.
- Vincennes. A fully functioning TL 16 society, that has been TL 16 for quite a while. If nothing else, you should be able to grab some cool gadgets.
- Floria. Homeworld of the Florian race(s). Another TL 15 world, but with unusual technological development that makes it quite unlikely most Imperial TL 15 worlds.
- Hreahrya and Irlaiw. Two Aslan worlds with fairly inhospitable atmospheres (3) that each host tens of billions of Aslan!
I could do more if you wanted. smile.gif I focused on the social interests. If you want scientific interests, there are the various ancient sites and Marastan.
- Regina. In many ways this is the original "home" of Traveller. Also home world of the Caledon family.
- Darrian. Home world of the Darrians, with their long history. While the world is only TL 14, there are lots and lots of TL 16 artifacts still around and in use.
- Biter. Visit the famous Sword Worlds. While Gram is the original Sword World, Biter is far more friendly to Imperials.
- Glisten. The amazing TL 15 society built in a worldless system. It has massive navy and scout bases, huge shipyards, unrivaled learning centers and univeristies, and tons of other attractions.
- Deneb. Longtime home of the region's government. Hosts massive learning institutes, including the Jump Space Institute. Also, it orbits a massive star, and it shouldn't even exist as it does. Seeing that unique setup should be quite interesting.
- Vincennes. A fully functioning TL 16 society, that has been TL 16 for quite a while. If nothing else, you should be able to grab some cool gadgets.
- Floria. Homeworld of the Florian race(s). Another TL 15 world, but with unusual technological development that makes it quite unlikely most Imperial TL 15 worlds.
- Hreahrya and Irlaiw. Two Aslan worlds with fairly inhospitable atmospheres (3) that each host tens of billions of Aslan!
I could do more if you wanted. smile.gif I focused on the social interests. If you want scientific interests, there are the various ancient sites and Marastan.
aramis
July 28th, 2005, 02:32 PM
nitpick:
Daryen: Aledon, not Caledon. A cadet branch of Alkhalikoi.
Daryen: Aledon, not Caledon. A cadet branch of Alkhalikoi.
Sifu Blackirish
July 29th, 2005, 09:22 AM
Strangely enough, in the OTU days, we didn't really care that much about the setting, or where we were. The munchkins I played with just wanted maximum damage... ;)
Even in my ATU, with an adventure that took our hero over 30 parsecs into unexplored territory (about from Lunion/Strouden to Asmodeus in the 'SM'), I only gamed one major encounter en route.
Even in my ATU, with an adventure that took our hero over 30 parsecs into unexplored territory (about from Lunion/Strouden to Asmodeus in the 'SM'), I only gamed one major encounter en route.
Ran Targas
July 29th, 2005, 02:09 PM
IMHO, known space is too heavily populated. Seems you can't turn around without running in a world with over 10billion beings on it. Do we really breed that fast?
IMTU, the scouts and surveyors have far out distanced the hordes of colonists waiting to exploit Terran-Norm planets. In fact, colonizing IMTU is seen more as a means to drop out of society than a necessity due to population growth.
This leaves plenty of systems catalogued but essentially untouched by humans or the like.
IMTU, the scouts and surveyors have far out distanced the hordes of colonists waiting to exploit Terran-Norm planets. In fact, colonizing IMTU is seen more as a means to drop out of society than a necessity due to population growth.
This leaves plenty of systems catalogued but essentially untouched by humans or the like.
aramis
July 29th, 2005, 06:17 PM
Modern human gorwth rates range from -10% to +15% per annum, but much of that is not replication.
Humans can begin reproducing safely (phisiologically and typically) at 16, unsafely at 10-12. Since we're going for max... we'll use safely.
Safe rate past that point is 1 year birth to pregnancy; many nursing mothers don't ovulate for the first year... so we'll assume 2 years birth to birth.
Assuming modern medicine, up to 15 births have been known before scarring of the uterus is too severe for stable pregnancy.
so 15 per 45 years per female. We'll assume 1:1 M-F, just for sanity. so 7.5 persons per person per 45 years. Roughly 4.6% per year. or, in 1000 years, sextillions of times the population.
Compared to rabbits: 3 litters of 6+ per year, breeding at 1 year, living up to 10, 162x per 10years... x1e220 per millennium.
Given a stable healthy genetically diverse 100 persons, and monogamy, and 4% MSG you'll expect a million in about 250 years of MSG, and a billion in about 410.
So, yes, we are POTENTIALLY that fecund. With a more moderate 2% growth, a million takes about 450 years; a billion takes about 815 years, and the millennium is 39 billion (39e9).
At a modern LPG rate (0.5%), like much of europe, those same hundred would only get us 14 thousand people in a millennia.
Humans can begin reproducing safely (phisiologically and typically) at 16, unsafely at 10-12. Since we're going for max... we'll use safely.
Safe rate past that point is 1 year birth to pregnancy; many nursing mothers don't ovulate for the first year... so we'll assume 2 years birth to birth.
Assuming modern medicine, up to 15 births have been known before scarring of the uterus is too severe for stable pregnancy.
so 15 per 45 years per female. We'll assume 1:1 M-F, just for sanity. so 7.5 persons per person per 45 years. Roughly 4.6% per year. or, in 1000 years, sextillions of times the population.
Compared to rabbits: 3 litters of 6+ per year, breeding at 1 year, living up to 10, 162x per 10years... x1e220 per millennium.
Given a stable healthy genetically diverse 100 persons, and monogamy, and 4% MSG you'll expect a million in about 250 years of MSG, and a billion in about 410.
So, yes, we are POTENTIALLY that fecund. With a more moderate 2% growth, a million takes about 450 years; a billion takes about 815 years, and the millennium is 39 billion (39e9).
At a modern LPG rate (0.5%), like much of europe, those same hundred would only get us 14 thousand people in a millennia.
Spinward Scout
July 29th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Hey daryen, I'm surprised you left Aramis off of your list. smile.gif Well, I came up with some more regions. I'm up to 25 now. The Domain of Deneb looks good - I'm going to drop one of your Aslan worlds and put Andory on there since it's supposed to be the possible homeworld of the Droyne. It sucks that it's Interdicted - that would be one to visit. The only other region I have info on is The Solomani Rim and I don't know that much about it. Does anyone have The Alien Modules? Thanks for all the responses!
Not sure where to go from here,
Dameon
Here's the new list:
The Imperium (The Domain of Sylea)
Capital
Reference
The Imperium (The Domain of Vland)
Vland (Vilani Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Sol)
Terra (Solomani Homeworld)
Muan Gwi (Vegan Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Illesh)
Dlan
The Imperium (The Domain of Antares)
Antares
The Imperium (The Domain of Gateway)
The Imperium (The Domain of Deneb)
Regina
Andory (Possible Droyne homeworld - Interdicted)
Darrian
Biter
Glisten
Deneb
Vincennes
Floria
Hreahrya
Aramis
The Solomani Sphere
Home
Aslan Client States
The Aslan Hierate
Kuzu (Aslan Homeworld)
Dark Nebula
Kusyu
The Great Rift
The Aslan Colonies
The Vanguard Reaches
The Beyond
Reft Sector
Human Client States
The Zhodani Consulate
Zhodane (Zhodani Homeworld)
The Vargr Extents
Lair (Vargr Homeworld)
Vargr Enclaves
The Lesser Rift
The Two Thousand Worlds
Kirur (Centaur Homeworld)
Mixed and Scattered Client States
Spica
The Hive Federation
Guaran (Hive Homeworld)
Glea (Hive Federation Capital)
Hive Young Worlds
Not sure where to go from here,
Dameon
Here's the new list:
The Imperium (The Domain of Sylea)
Capital
Reference
The Imperium (The Domain of Vland)
Vland (Vilani Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Sol)
Terra (Solomani Homeworld)
Muan Gwi (Vegan Homeworld)
The Imperium (The Domain of Illesh)
Dlan
The Imperium (The Domain of Antares)
Antares
The Imperium (The Domain of Gateway)
The Imperium (The Domain of Deneb)
Regina
Andory (Possible Droyne homeworld - Interdicted)
Darrian
Biter
Glisten
Deneb
Vincennes
Floria
Hreahrya
Aramis
The Solomani Sphere
Home
Aslan Client States
The Aslan Hierate
Kuzu (Aslan Homeworld)
Dark Nebula
Kusyu
The Great Rift
The Aslan Colonies
The Vanguard Reaches
The Beyond
Reft Sector
Human Client States
The Zhodani Consulate
Zhodane (Zhodani Homeworld)
The Vargr Extents
Lair (Vargr Homeworld)
Vargr Enclaves
The Lesser Rift
The Two Thousand Worlds
Kirur (Centaur Homeworld)
Mixed and Scattered Client States
Spica
The Hive Federation
Guaran (Hive Homeworld)
Glea (Hive Federation Capital)
Hive Young Worlds
Spinward Scout
July 29th, 2005, 11:28 PM
I guess I'm looking at this more like: if you had a teleporter and could go anywhere in Known Space, where would you go... The Wonders (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=000225#000000) of the Galaxy type of thing we've talked about before. Like, I want to find stats for the Prison Planet in the Solomani Rim to throw on here.
Later,
Dameon
Later,
Dameon
Malenfant
July 30th, 2005, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Like, I want to find stats for the Prison Planet in the Solomani Rim to throw on here.[/QB]You could just use Darkmoon? (OK, it's not in the Rim sector, but what the heck)
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/ps6/
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
Like, I want to find stats for the Prison Planet in the Solomani Rim to throw on here.[/QB]You could just use Darkmoon? (OK, it's not in the Rim sector, but what the heck)
http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/ps6/
http://www.ogrecave.com/reviews/darkmoon.shtml
mike wightman
July 30th, 2005, 04:49 AM
Do you mean Newcomb, in the Banasdan subsector of the Solomani Rim?
0503 D4441443-6
0503 D4441443-6
mike wightman
July 30th, 2005, 04:55 AM
Oh, and you may also want to include the following worlds in the Solomani Rim:
Arcturus - Murder on Arcturus Station
Bellerophon - Nomads of the World-Ocean
Cymbeline - Signal GK
Arcturus - Murder on Arcturus Station
Bellerophon - Nomads of the World-Ocean
Cymbeline - Signal GK
Chaos
July 30th, 2005, 05:11 AM
@Sir Dameon:
Aren´t Kuzu and Kusyu the same world, just with different spellings?
Aren´t Kuzu and Kusyu the same world, just with different spellings?
Spinward Scout
July 30th, 2005, 07:00 PM
Kusyu is in Dark Nebula and Kuzu is in the Aslan Hierate unless I'm reading the maps wrong. Kuzu is on the CT Library Data map and Kusyu is on the MT Referee's Manual map.
I'll add those tonite,
Dameon
I'll add those tonite,
Dameon
Malenfant
July 30th, 2005, 08:58 PM
So I was thinking that we could tinker a bit with this and come up with the Top 100 worlds in Known Space. Say, if someone had the time and inclination to go on a cruise, what would they want to see in each region."top 100" in what way? For tourism? history? impressive sunsets? excitement? entertainment?
Give us a way to narrow things down a bit smile.gif
Give us a way to narrow things down a bit smile.gif
daryen
July 30th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Sir Dameon Toth:
Hey daryen, I'm surprised you left Aramis off of your list. smile.gif Well, I came up with some more regions. I'm up to 25 now. The Domain of Deneb looks good - I'm going to drop one of your Aslan worlds and put Andory on there since it's supposed to be the possible homeworld of the Droyne. It sucks that it's Interdicted - that would be one to visit.I wouldn't have ever included Aramis. (Sorry, Aramis. smile.gif ) It is a fairly boring world, with a petty despot and mediocre technology. There are many worlds I would include prior to mentioning Aramis.
Instead let me suggest Esalin. It is the world that is nominally controlled by both the Zhodani and the Imperium. While it is really under Imperial control, Zhodani are free to come and go. Thus the world provides the Imperial citizen the best possible chance to interact with Zhodani in a fairly safe environment.
I had thought of Andor (not Andory) and Candory. However, I specifically did not include them, as they are interdicted and extremely difficult to get to (minimum J3). If they were not interdicted, I would have included them.
I was trying to look at it from the point of view of an Imperial citizen in the Classic Era. It is not going to be recommended for an Imperial citizen to visit an interdicted world.
(This is similar to why I included Biter instead of Gram. The better destination is Gram, but from the POV of an Imperial citizen, Biter is probably the safer, yet still effective, choice.)
If you want to include Droyne worlds, use Zeen in Deneb instead. It is a safely Imperial world that isn't "zoned" and is run by Droyne. Another choice is Ayidem in the Reaches. It is an Amber zone, but is also an open Imperial world run by the Dryone. Zeen is probably the best choice, though.
Hey daryen, I'm surprised you left Aramis off of your list. smile.gif Well, I came up with some more regions. I'm up to 25 now. The Domain of Deneb looks good - I'm going to drop one of your Aslan worlds and put Andory on there since it's supposed to be the possible homeworld of the Droyne. It sucks that it's Interdicted - that would be one to visit.I wouldn't have ever included Aramis. (Sorry, Aramis. smile.gif ) It is a fairly boring world, with a petty despot and mediocre technology. There are many worlds I would include prior to mentioning Aramis.
Instead let me suggest Esalin. It is the world that is nominally controlled by both the Zhodani and the Imperium. While it is really under Imperial control, Zhodani are free to come and go. Thus the world provides the Imperial citizen the best possible chance to interact with Zhodani in a fairly safe environment.
I had thought of Andor (not Andory) and Candory. However, I specifically did not include them, as they are interdicted and extremely difficult to get to (minimum J3). If they were not interdicted, I would have included them.
I was trying to look at it from the point of view of an Imperial citizen in the Classic Era. It is not going to be recommended for an Imperial citizen to visit an interdicted world.
(This is similar to why I included Biter instead of Gram. The better destination is Gram, but from the POV of an Imperial citizen, Biter is probably the safer, yet still effective, choice.)
If you want to include Droyne worlds, use Zeen in Deneb instead. It is a safely Imperial world that isn't "zoned" and is run by Droyne. Another choice is Ayidem in the Reaches. It is an Amber zone, but is also an open Imperial world run by the Dryone. Zeen is probably the best choice, though.
Spinward Scout
July 31st, 2005, 11:31 AM
Well, I think I would go with Top 100 Exciting Worlds, but Technologically Advanced or Incredible Natural Feature would work, too. I'll go ahead and make those changes daryen. I appreciate all your help!
Dameon
Dameon
Jeff M. Hopper
July 31st, 2005, 03:24 PM
Don't forget Historical Battle Site Worlds. The sites of old battles are often great tourist spots and provide some more depth to Known Space. I'd suggest choosing one battle site which characterizes each major confict known.
Some might even have historical reenactment groups there for added flavor to bring in the tourists.
Some might even have historical reenactment groups there for added flavor to bring in the tourists.
Spinward Scout
July 31st, 2005, 05:51 PM
I was thinking about that, too. Wasn't Mora in the Spinward Marches a BattleSite in the 5FW?
Dameon
Dameon
ross_winn
July 31st, 2005, 07:23 PM
in my view it is too big. which is why I am changing some things in my new campaign.
Malenfant
July 31st, 2005, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Don't forget Historical Battle Site Worlds. The sites of old battles are often great tourist spots and provide some more depth to Known Space. I'd suggest choosing one battle site which characterizes each major confict known.How many battles would have actually been fought on the ground though?
I'd imagine it'd be kinda dull on the planet: "And here is where some generals pushed a few buttons and told a few spaceships to attack something".
Don't forget Historical Battle Site Worlds. The sites of old battles are often great tourist spots and provide some more depth to Known Space. I'd suggest choosing one battle site which characterizes each major confict known.How many battles would have actually been fought on the ground though?
I'd imagine it'd be kinda dull on the planet: "And here is where some generals pushed a few buttons and told a few spaceships to attack something".
Whipsnade
August 1st, 2005, 02:47 AM
Don't forget all those Human Minor Race homeworlds. GT:Humaniti was rather disappointing(1), but it can add several worlds to your list. Let's see, I'll skip the few you've already listed like Daryen and Sylea...
Archeron - Archeron/Diaspora
Answerin - Answerin/Vland
Azhanti - Irale/Antares
Dynchia - Melantris/Leonidae
Floriani - Floria/Trojan Reach
Geonee - Shiwonee/Massilla
Iltharans - Drexilthar/Reaver's Deep
Irhadre - Chanad/Lishun
Kargol - Kargol/Leonidae
Luriani - Daramm/Ley
Nexxies - Nexine/Spinward Marches
Otrai - Otrai/Glimmerdrift Reaches
Yileans - Gashikan/Gashikan
You should throw the Sydites and their homeworld into the list too.
I should admit that most HMRs are not worth visiting. Unlike many other aspects of canon, Our Olde Game has shown a decided lack of imagination when creating them. Most are little more than slight tweaks of tired old tropes; honorable warrior race, race with flippers, etc., etc., etc. Few show any signs of originality.
If I had to trim the list to those actually worth visiting, I'd keep the Floriani, Irhadre, and Otrai and chuck the rest.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - Except for a few retreaded Jesse Degraff illos, the interior art was excreable. I doubt you could make it worse if you tried. Also, the smeary, grey scale, planetary maps are all but useless. All in all, not one of SJGames finer moments.
Archeron - Archeron/Diaspora
Answerin - Answerin/Vland
Azhanti - Irale/Antares
Dynchia - Melantris/Leonidae
Floriani - Floria/Trojan Reach
Geonee - Shiwonee/Massilla
Iltharans - Drexilthar/Reaver's Deep
Irhadre - Chanad/Lishun
Kargol - Kargol/Leonidae
Luriani - Daramm/Ley
Nexxies - Nexine/Spinward Marches
Otrai - Otrai/Glimmerdrift Reaches
Yileans - Gashikan/Gashikan
You should throw the Sydites and their homeworld into the list too.
I should admit that most HMRs are not worth visiting. Unlike many other aspects of canon, Our Olde Game has shown a decided lack of imagination when creating them. Most are little more than slight tweaks of tired old tropes; honorable warrior race, race with flippers, etc., etc., etc. Few show any signs of originality.
If I had to trim the list to those actually worth visiting, I'd keep the Floriani, Irhadre, and Otrai and chuck the rest.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - Except for a few retreaded Jesse Degraff illos, the interior art was excreable. I doubt you could make it worse if you tried. Also, the smeary, grey scale, planetary maps are all but useless. All in all, not one of SJGames finer moments.
daryen
August 1st, 2005, 10:21 AM
I don't know. I don't mind "tired old tropes" as long as they are done well and done once. (I.e. the "born warrior race" is a bit abused by Traveller. I really hate them at this point.)
So, I actually kinda like the Luriani (flipper people), Dynchia (animistic people), and Iltharans (born bad-guy people). I also don't mind the Geonee (heavy-worlders).
So, my "good" list is: Darrians, Dynchia, Floriani, Geonee, Iltharans, Luriani. I can live with the Irhadre. The rest can go.
(BTW, the comments about the art in Humaniti is completely correct. Besides Bill's complaints, there is also the fact that whoever did the art obviously didn't bother to actually read the descriptions before drawing. Any similarity between the drawings and descriptions are completely accidental.)
[Edit: Fixed a minor typo in the second sentence.]
So, I actually kinda like the Luriani (flipper people), Dynchia (animistic people), and Iltharans (born bad-guy people). I also don't mind the Geonee (heavy-worlders).
So, my "good" list is: Darrians, Dynchia, Floriani, Geonee, Iltharans, Luriani. I can live with the Irhadre. The rest can go.
(BTW, the comments about the art in Humaniti is completely correct. Besides Bill's complaints, there is also the fact that whoever did the art obviously didn't bother to actually read the descriptions before drawing. Any similarity between the drawings and descriptions are completely accidental.)
[Edit: Fixed a minor typo in the second sentence.]
Flynn
August 1st, 2005, 01:28 PM
BTW, what would you consider to be the different tropes of alien races, particularly those that haven't been explored in Traveller?
I know we have the basics: born warrior, militant vegetarian, oppressed raider, evil (or just misunderstood) psions, multi-caste avian-reptilian-insectoids, space nazis, curious weirdos, and logic-driven humanoids.
What would you say are untapped resources in the "sci-fi tropes" regarding aliens?
Thanks,
Flynn
I know we have the basics: born warrior, militant vegetarian, oppressed raider, evil (or just misunderstood) psions, multi-caste avian-reptilian-insectoids, space nazis, curious weirdos, and logic-driven humanoids.
What would you say are untapped resources in the "sci-fi tropes" regarding aliens?
Thanks,
Flynn
Jeff M. Hopper
August 1st, 2005, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Don't forget Historical Battle Site Worlds. The sites of old battles are often great tourist spots and provide some more depth to Known Space. I'd suggest choosing one battle site which characterizes each major confict known.How many battles would have actually been fought on the ground though?
I'd imagine it'd be kinda dull on the planet: "And here is where some generals pushed a few buttons and told a few spaceships to attack something". </font>[/QUOTE]Battle sites don't have to be groundside. A lot of people come to Pearl Harbor in Hawaii just to see the Arizona - and its underwater.
Now, I'll argue about the dullness of a space battle site. It'll all be in the eye of the beholder as to whether or not it is dull. By the time of the Third Imperium, a definite spacer culture will have evolved that would probably enjoy seeing a debris field from a battle or a large chunk of wreakage that is the remains of the Imperial Battleship Jacqueline or even the declassified sensor logs of the ships involved in the battle (hmm, this last one may be the most significant for historians as well).
Actually, now that I've had some coffee and am a bit more awake...
On planet, if the battle was large enough, there would occassionally be debris falling into the atmosphere and burning up. A good reminder of the sacrifices that were made in the space battle. (If you haven't seen Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz, there is a wonderful seen in the beginning of a piece of debris falling into the atmosphere and streaking across the sky at twilight while farmers harvest their fields.)
I think the key to a tourist site of any kind is its historical and/or cultural significance to the population. Sort of a nod to the 80's and the CoDominion stories that I like to include in campaign settings is a world that has blown itself back into the stone age through a nuclear war - it is preserved by the Imperium and has a noble/military academy on it, it kept around as a reminder of what could happen to a world in the Imperium if the nobles and military are lackadaisical in their duties. Sort of a reminder of "lest we forget".
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Don't forget Historical Battle Site Worlds. The sites of old battles are often great tourist spots and provide some more depth to Known Space. I'd suggest choosing one battle site which characterizes each major confict known.How many battles would have actually been fought on the ground though?
I'd imagine it'd be kinda dull on the planet: "And here is where some generals pushed a few buttons and told a few spaceships to attack something". </font>[/QUOTE]Battle sites don't have to be groundside. A lot of people come to Pearl Harbor in Hawaii just to see the Arizona - and its underwater.
Now, I'll argue about the dullness of a space battle site. It'll all be in the eye of the beholder as to whether or not it is dull. By the time of the Third Imperium, a definite spacer culture will have evolved that would probably enjoy seeing a debris field from a battle or a large chunk of wreakage that is the remains of the Imperial Battleship Jacqueline or even the declassified sensor logs of the ships involved in the battle (hmm, this last one may be the most significant for historians as well).
Actually, now that I've had some coffee and am a bit more awake...
On planet, if the battle was large enough, there would occassionally be debris falling into the atmosphere and burning up. A good reminder of the sacrifices that were made in the space battle. (If you haven't seen Gundam Wing: Endless Waltz, there is a wonderful seen in the beginning of a piece of debris falling into the atmosphere and streaking across the sky at twilight while farmers harvest their fields.)
I think the key to a tourist site of any kind is its historical and/or cultural significance to the population. Sort of a nod to the 80's and the CoDominion stories that I like to include in campaign settings is a world that has blown itself back into the stone age through a nuclear war - it is preserved by the Imperium and has a noble/military academy on it, it kept around as a reminder of what could happen to a world in the Imperium if the nobles and military are lackadaisical in their duties. Sort of a reminder of "lest we forget".
Jame
August 1st, 2005, 02:13 PM
No, I don't think it's too big, but mainly because it allows many different people to use different settings in different ways, and no-one can automatically claim "hey, you stole my idea!"
daryen
August 1st, 2005, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Gaming Glen:
zoo planet? or one with a large land mass dedicated to such, with hidden-from-animals transportation system for the tourists.Well, there is Kamsii, the amusement park planet. It is detailed in the first GT Planetary Survey booklet.
In the Marches, you have Marastan, which is a "wildlife reserve" planet. In TNE, it even gains a small K'kree population that is allowed to settle there after they get cut off by the Rebellion.
zoo planet? or one with a large land mass dedicated to such, with hidden-from-animals transportation system for the tourists.Well, there is Kamsii, the amusement park planet. It is detailed in the first GT Planetary Survey booklet.
In the Marches, you have Marastan, which is a "wildlife reserve" planet. In TNE, it even gains a small K'kree population that is allowed to settle there after they get cut off by the Rebellion.
daryen
August 1st, 2005, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Flynn:
BTW, what would you consider to be the different tropes of alien races, particularly those that haven't been explored in Traveller?
I know we have the basics: born warrior, militant vegetarian, oppressed raider, evil (or just misunderstood) psions, multi-caste avian-reptilian-insectoids, space nazis, curious weirdos, and logic-driven humanoids.Actually, I give Traveller credit for the K'kree. They are probably the most effectively alien aliens in Traveller, and they work pretty well as such. I don't remember seeing "genocidal militant herbivores" done before. And if they hadn't been labelled "centaurs" to start with, they might not have had that millstone around their metagame reputation.
The two most annoying tropes done repeatedly in Traveller are the "prefect warriors" and the "servant races". They just get tiring after a while.
One other type of trope Traveller gets hammered with is its anthropamorphic aliens. E.g. dog-men (Vargr), horse-men/centaurs (K'kree), lion-men (Aslan), cat-men (Kargol), lizard-men (Saurians), fish-men (Nexxies), frog-men (Luriani), dwarves (Genoee), elves (Darrians). Some of them have been developed well enough that we forget their origins (e.g. K'kree, Darrians), but to someone not steeped in Traveller lore, they are all just silly trappings of "old scifi".
As for new tropes, hey, if I had any I would be making money on my original ideas, not giving them away for free here. smile.gif
BTW, what would you consider to be the different tropes of alien races, particularly those that haven't been explored in Traveller?
I know we have the basics: born warrior, militant vegetarian, oppressed raider, evil (or just misunderstood) psions, multi-caste avian-reptilian-insectoids, space nazis, curious weirdos, and logic-driven humanoids.Actually, I give Traveller credit for the K'kree. They are probably the most effectively alien aliens in Traveller, and they work pretty well as such. I don't remember seeing "genocidal militant herbivores" done before. And if they hadn't been labelled "centaurs" to start with, they might not have had that millstone around their metagame reputation.
The two most annoying tropes done repeatedly in Traveller are the "prefect warriors" and the "servant races". They just get tiring after a while.
One other type of trope Traveller gets hammered with is its anthropamorphic aliens. E.g. dog-men (Vargr), horse-men/centaurs (K'kree), lion-men (Aslan), cat-men (Kargol), lizard-men (Saurians), fish-men (Nexxies), frog-men (Luriani), dwarves (Genoee), elves (Darrians). Some of them have been developed well enough that we forget their origins (e.g. K'kree, Darrians), but to someone not steeped in Traveller lore, they are all just silly trappings of "old scifi".
As for new tropes, hey, if I had any I would be making money on my original ideas, not giving them away for free here. smile.gif
Gundiwolf
August 1st, 2005, 05:50 PM
One point about the anthropamorphic (sp?) aliens - most of them are presented with an eye to making them available as a player race, so they were set up to make it easier for a player to figure out how to play them. In the original JTAS article about K'Kree, there is a statement that they should not be used for PC's until the full "Contact" book comes out, because they have such an alien mindset.
And of course, the referee has to know how to play them, as NPCs. The "man in funny suit" thing just makes it simpler.
And of course, the referee has to know how to play them, as NPCs. The "man in funny suit" thing just makes it simpler.
daryen
August 1st, 2005, 07:09 PM
Well, that is kinda the problem with designing alien aliens. If they are truly alien, not just "men in rubber suits", then how do we relate to them?
So, instead aliens are described in terrestial terms (e.g. lion-man, dog-man).
Likewise, how do we make them act unlike humans? We have no basis for comparison.
Instead, aliens are actually restricted in their actions. Humans can operate in any manner and still be human. But aliens are put in boxes and not let out. So, Vargr *must* be charisma driven, Aslan males *must* desire "land", and so on.
You know, for a genre that is supposed to be about limitless options, science fiction sure likes to put things in little bitty boxes.
This goes for terrestrial worlds, too. You have have your jungle worlds, desert worlds, water worlds, ice worlds, even city worlds. But you rarely get worlds with significant variations in climate (like a real world would).
So, instead aliens are described in terrestial terms (e.g. lion-man, dog-man).
Likewise, how do we make them act unlike humans? We have no basis for comparison.
Instead, aliens are actually restricted in their actions. Humans can operate in any manner and still be human. But aliens are put in boxes and not let out. So, Vargr *must* be charisma driven, Aslan males *must* desire "land", and so on.
You know, for a genre that is supposed to be about limitless options, science fiction sure likes to put things in little bitty boxes.
This goes for terrestrial worlds, too. You have have your jungle worlds, desert worlds, water worlds, ice worlds, even city worlds. But you rarely get worlds with significant variations in climate (like a real world would).
flykiller
August 1st, 2005, 07:54 PM
You know, for a genre that is supposed to be about limitless options, science fiction sure likes to put things in little bitty boxes.well, WE are the little bitty boxes. rpg's are like movies, they deal in stereotypes in order to get the adventure moving. does a referee have the free time to develop or study a truly alien creature and then commmunicate it to the players? and do players have the inclination to devote six months to understanding this strange being?
and sure, rpg aliens are restricted in their actions. that's part of their stereotypical alienness. if they were as varied as humans are then the aliens would seem more human and the rubber-suit problem would be worse, not better.
besides, humans can be alien enough to each other. consider the differences in mind set between a CEO, a boyscout troop leader, and a gangbanger in downtown los angeles. lots of room for alienness in the human range of experience.
and sure, rpg aliens are restricted in their actions. that's part of their stereotypical alienness. if they were as varied as humans are then the aliens would seem more human and the rubber-suit problem would be worse, not better.
besides, humans can be alien enough to each other. consider the differences in mind set between a CEO, a boyscout troop leader, and a gangbanger in downtown los angeles. lots of room for alienness in the human range of experience.
Fritz_Brown
August 2nd, 2005, 09:02 AM
flykiller/daryen, I think you hit on the most important point: humans are terribly varied. I don't think you could build a truly alien race (at least that anyone would care about) that wouldn't have human characteristics. It's a bit humanocentric, but I honestly think we fill about as much of the range as possible where things like motivations/emotions/oulooks/etc go. (And, my reasons for believing so are not humanist.)
Also, most of the thoughtful renditions of "alien" mindsets have already been done in scifi. So, if your alien is truly "alien", it will be a cliche. If it's not a cliche, it will be humans in rubber suits.
Also, most of the thoughtful renditions of "alien" mindsets have already been done in scifi. So, if your alien is truly "alien", it will be a cliche. If it's not a cliche, it will be humans in rubber suits.
Ran Targas
August 2nd, 2005, 09:55 AM
To b@$t@rdize the quote, "the universe is far stranger than we can imagine"
Humans (and Trav aliens) can have as varied motivations as the GM can adequately develop a reason for. But every GM is limited by motivations and influences he/she has experience with. A Vargr seeking universal harmony and equality with all species, an Aslan male subject to a vow of poverty, a naive Hiver falling under the thrall of a human manipulator, a philosophic K'kree desiring to eat cooked meat for the experience; all are possibilities.
Aliens can only be as alien as we can imagine them to be. Even the stereotypes provided in canon (only to give GM's a starting place) should only be considered gross generalizations. Not every Solomani is a racist party loyalist bent of returning 'true humans' to a position of power but as a group, Solomanis tend to behave a certain way. Regardless, the best sythesized alien motivations still can only be thinly veiled human motivations. After all, we know nothing else.
Developing a truly alien culture for Trav would almost require experience beyond the human norm and would, by its very nature, be difficult to adequately portray to GM's and players alike. So, regardless of your creativity, there will be individual humans who act just like your aliens do.
Humans (and Trav aliens) can have as varied motivations as the GM can adequately develop a reason for. But every GM is limited by motivations and influences he/she has experience with. A Vargr seeking universal harmony and equality with all species, an Aslan male subject to a vow of poverty, a naive Hiver falling under the thrall of a human manipulator, a philosophic K'kree desiring to eat cooked meat for the experience; all are possibilities.
Aliens can only be as alien as we can imagine them to be. Even the stereotypes provided in canon (only to give GM's a starting place) should only be considered gross generalizations. Not every Solomani is a racist party loyalist bent of returning 'true humans' to a position of power but as a group, Solomanis tend to behave a certain way. Regardless, the best sythesized alien motivations still can only be thinly veiled human motivations. After all, we know nothing else.
Developing a truly alien culture for Trav would almost require experience beyond the human norm and would, by its very nature, be difficult to adequately portray to GM's and players alike. So, regardless of your creativity, there will be individual humans who act just like your aliens do.
aramis
August 2nd, 2005, 07:28 PM
In the case of the Vargr, they literally are wolf-men.
The original aslan describes them as samurai in space. That samurai in space usually look like lions seems a bit staid, but it occurs elsewhere besides traveller.
By bringing the aliens to being at least as alien as the other cultures on planet, we can achieve verisimilitude. Lets face it, the introduction of the alien race modules catapulted traveller above several others (New Suns, Space Opera, Star Frontiers all come to mind) where the aliens are simply described as being based upon X creature.
The original aslan describes them as samurai in space. That samurai in space usually look like lions seems a bit staid, but it occurs elsewhere besides traveller.
By bringing the aliens to being at least as alien as the other cultures on planet, we can achieve verisimilitude. Lets face it, the introduction of the alien race modules catapulted traveller above several others (New Suns, Space Opera, Star Frontiers all come to mind) where the aliens are simply described as being based upon X creature.
Sifu Blackirish
August 2nd, 2005, 10:59 PM
Ron Targas said:
Not every Solomani is a racist party loyalist bent of returning 'true humans' to a position of power...My fellow loyalty officers obviously haven't paid you a visit yet... graemlins/file_22.gif
Not every Solomani is a racist party loyalist bent of returning 'true humans' to a position of power...My fellow loyalty officers obviously haven't paid you a visit yet... graemlins/file_22.gif
Whipsnade
August 3rd, 2005, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Ran Targas:
Developing a truly alien culture for Trav would almost require experience beyond the human norm and would, by its very nature, be difficult to adequately portray to GM's and players alike. So, regardless of your creativity, there will be individual humans who act just like your aliens do. Ran,
You hit the nail on the head right there. In order to use an alien race, a GM or player must be able to undersatand it thus limiting the 'alien' quality of the race.
Some here may remember a thread(1) from a few months ago regarding 'building' alien races for Traveller. I suggested the poster look at GURPS:Uplift and cautioned him that how alien he can make the race depends on a choice he must make at the beginning of the process. To whit: Is the race going to be 'playable' or 'understandable' as a PC/NPC or is the race going to be an noncomprehensible 'event'.
Most of the alien races in Traveller - or in any RPG for that matter - are fundamentally handicapped by the requirement that they operate as PCs or NPCs. Too few races are handled as 'events', incomprehensible or seemingly baffling to human ken. Traveller has a gas giant race, the 'Jgd il Jgd' or some such, that most closely approached that level. The GM can use them as 'events', using them as NPCs is far too problematic.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - You may also remember that the thread devolved into a disccusion of basic biology and evolution when a few posters suggested that the Star Blecch Paradigm operates in reality; that all sentient sophonts will be upright, bipedal, hominid-like creatures with various bits of plumbing supplies glued to their faces.
Developing a truly alien culture for Trav would almost require experience beyond the human norm and would, by its very nature, be difficult to adequately portray to GM's and players alike. So, regardless of your creativity, there will be individual humans who act just like your aliens do. Ran,
You hit the nail on the head right there. In order to use an alien race, a GM or player must be able to undersatand it thus limiting the 'alien' quality of the race.
Some here may remember a thread(1) from a few months ago regarding 'building' alien races for Traveller. I suggested the poster look at GURPS:Uplift and cautioned him that how alien he can make the race depends on a choice he must make at the beginning of the process. To whit: Is the race going to be 'playable' or 'understandable' as a PC/NPC or is the race going to be an noncomprehensible 'event'.
Most of the alien races in Traveller - or in any RPG for that matter - are fundamentally handicapped by the requirement that they operate as PCs or NPCs. Too few races are handled as 'events', incomprehensible or seemingly baffling to human ken. Traveller has a gas giant race, the 'Jgd il Jgd' or some such, that most closely approached that level. The GM can use them as 'events', using them as NPCs is far too problematic.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - You may also remember that the thread devolved into a disccusion of basic biology and evolution when a few posters suggested that the Star Blecch Paradigm operates in reality; that all sentient sophonts will be upright, bipedal, hominid-like creatures with various bits of plumbing supplies glued to their faces.
Whipsnade
August 3rd, 2005, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by daryen:
(BTW, the comments about the art in Humaniti is completely correct. Besides Bill's complaints, there is also the fact that whoever did the art obviously didn't bother to actually read the descriptions before drawing. Any similarity between the drawings and descriptions are completely accidental.)Daryen,
Afte GT:H came out and the howls regarding the art(1) began, the 'explanation' was that the original artist or artists contracted failed to produce either acceptable illos or enough illos by the required date. In order to make the ship date, the art contract for GT:H was thrown to an individual who could rapidly grind out the required number of illos in the required shapes and sizes by the required date.
I can buy the second excuse; that the original artist(s) did not produce enough art in time to be used. I cannot buy the first excuse; that the original art was not acceptable. If the actual art in GT:H is acceptable, than the various fingerpaintings by my 3 year-old nephew that currently adorn my refridgerator are acceptable too.
I do not pretend to know what pressures and thought processes SJGames was operating under while preparing GT:H for publication. However, I cannot fathom why meeting a ship date - targets SJG routinely and correctly miss in order to get things right - suddenly became important enough to ship a product with such excreable interior art. From an art production standpoint, GT:H is an embarassment.
All this is IMHO of course. YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - Not the prose mind you, the art. Aside from the maps, the information in GT:H is great. The art might as well not be there as it takes up space that could have held more words.
(BTW, the comments about the art in Humaniti is completely correct. Besides Bill's complaints, there is also the fact that whoever did the art obviously didn't bother to actually read the descriptions before drawing. Any similarity between the drawings and descriptions are completely accidental.)Daryen,
Afte GT:H came out and the howls regarding the art(1) began, the 'explanation' was that the original artist or artists contracted failed to produce either acceptable illos or enough illos by the required date. In order to make the ship date, the art contract for GT:H was thrown to an individual who could rapidly grind out the required number of illos in the required shapes and sizes by the required date.
I can buy the second excuse; that the original artist(s) did not produce enough art in time to be used. I cannot buy the first excuse; that the original art was not acceptable. If the actual art in GT:H is acceptable, than the various fingerpaintings by my 3 year-old nephew that currently adorn my refridgerator are acceptable too.
I do not pretend to know what pressures and thought processes SJGames was operating under while preparing GT:H for publication. However, I cannot fathom why meeting a ship date - targets SJG routinely and correctly miss in order to get things right - suddenly became important enough to ship a product with such excreable interior art. From an art production standpoint, GT:H is an embarassment.
All this is IMHO of course. YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
1 - Not the prose mind you, the art. Aside from the maps, the information in GT:H is great. The art might as well not be there as it takes up space that could have held more words.
daryen
August 3rd, 2005, 09:57 AM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
I do not pretend to know what pressures and thought processes SJGames was operating under while preparing GT:H for publication. However, I cannot fathom why meeting a ship date - targets SJG routinely and correctly miss in order to get things right - suddenly became important enough to ship a product with such excreable interior art. From an art production standpoint, GT:H is an embarassment.It's actually worse than that. Humaniti itself was already over a year late, and had already been pushed back at least three times once they revised the release date. If the art was really that bad, how was another month or two going to hurt the book?
Strange stuff.
To reinforce Bill's footnote, however, please note that for all its bad art, Humaniti is still the single best book for coherent, up-to-date descriptions of the various races it covers.
While the art does suck, and you might quibble with some of the races presented, Humaniti is still a useful, informative book that treats the included races in a fairly thorough manner.
(As an added plus, SJG apparently cooperated with QLI on the Luriani. Their description in Humaniti is, AFAICT, identical to their treatment in T20.)
I do not pretend to know what pressures and thought processes SJGames was operating under while preparing GT:H for publication. However, I cannot fathom why meeting a ship date - targets SJG routinely and correctly miss in order to get things right - suddenly became important enough to ship a product with such excreable interior art. From an art production standpoint, GT:H is an embarassment.It's actually worse than that. Humaniti itself was already over a year late, and had already been pushed back at least three times once they revised the release date. If the art was really that bad, how was another month or two going to hurt the book?
Strange stuff.
To reinforce Bill's footnote, however, please note that for all its bad art, Humaniti is still the single best book for coherent, up-to-date descriptions of the various races it covers.
While the art does suck, and you might quibble with some of the races presented, Humaniti is still a useful, informative book that treats the included races in a fairly thorough manner.
(As an added plus, SJG apparently cooperated with QLI on the Luriani. Their description in Humaniti is, AFAICT, identical to their treatment in T20.)
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét