hunter
February 5th, 2005, 03:10 AM
Would anyone be interested in a 'limited' license to produce and sell their own Traveller compatible products?
Here's what we (Marc and I) are considering:
Anyone could produce and sell products that carry some sort of 'Compatible with Traveller' logo or brand. There would be a couple of catches however:
1) All such products could be PDF format only and could ONLY be sold through this website.
2) The author/publisher would receive a majority cut of any sale (exact percentage not yet determined).
3) The product could claim only mechanical compatibility. No compatibility with the OTU, nor any use of OTU material could be used. If you want to do that you need a full license.
4) The license for a product (or a publisher) could be revoked at any time for any reason. (This is mainly for reasons of quality and decency on our end for anything that is directly linked to the Traveller trademarks).
5) The author/publisher retains copyright on their material. Though if you want to sell the material elsewhere or bring it to print you would have to either obtain a full license or remove any reference to Traveller trademarks and remove any material that would violater the Traveller copyrights.
6) This license would cover all version of the Traveller rules except for GURPS: Traveller. Of course if you use anything from T20 you will may have to follow the OGL license as well (depending on what you use).
That's the bare basics. So what do you folks thinks? Any interest? You could publish rules enhancements, generic adventures, your own settings, and tons more. You won't get rich, but you might make a few bucks to help support your Traveller habit smile.gif
Please note that the basics I have outlined here might be subject to change, but are currently what we are considering going with).
Hunter
Here's what we (Marc and I) are considering:
Anyone could produce and sell products that carry some sort of 'Compatible with Traveller' logo or brand. There would be a couple of catches however:
1) All such products could be PDF format only and could ONLY be sold through this website.
2) The author/publisher would receive a majority cut of any sale (exact percentage not yet determined).
3) The product could claim only mechanical compatibility. No compatibility with the OTU, nor any use of OTU material could be used. If you want to do that you need a full license.
4) The license for a product (or a publisher) could be revoked at any time for any reason. (This is mainly for reasons of quality and decency on our end for anything that is directly linked to the Traveller trademarks).
5) The author/publisher retains copyright on their material. Though if you want to sell the material elsewhere or bring it to print you would have to either obtain a full license or remove any reference to Traveller trademarks and remove any material that would violater the Traveller copyrights.
6) This license would cover all version of the Traveller rules except for GURPS: Traveller. Of course if you use anything from T20 you will may have to follow the OGL license as well (depending on what you use).
That's the bare basics. So what do you folks thinks? Any interest? You could publish rules enhancements, generic adventures, your own settings, and tons more. You won't get rich, but you might make a few bucks to help support your Traveller habit smile.gif
Please note that the basics I have outlined here might be subject to change, but are currently what we are considering going with).
Hunter
Malenfant
February 5th, 2005, 03:38 AM
Hm. So things like, say, world building rules would come under this....? ;)
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
Hm. So things like, say, world building rules would come under this....? ;) tongue.gif
Hunter
Hm. So things like, say, world building rules would come under this....? ;) tongue.gif
Hunter
Blue Ghost
February 5th, 2005, 04:04 AM
Sounds like a plan... but only if you promise to fix the "review films & books" section smile.gif
Serisouly, it would probably expand Traveller for a lot of authors by throwing off any restraints of having to fit into the official setting(s).
Serisouly, it would probably expand Traveller for a lot of authors by throwing off any restraints of having to fit into the official setting(s).
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Sounds like a plan... but only if you promise to fix the "review films & books" section smile.gif Can you email me the problem (customersupport@RPGRealms.com) or point me to the thread where it's mentioned? I'm doing a lot of backend work on the site right now and have a chance to look at it at the moment.
Serisouly, it would probably expand Traveller for a lot of authors by throwing off any restraints of having to fit into the official setting(s). I see a lot of potential in it both for us and for the fans. I'm rather excited about the prospect! I think the potentially larger base of supporting material will give Traveller more exposure and appeal. It also lets us see what kind of talent is out there that we might be interested in working with on bringing the product to full production or on other products.
As a side note, we are also planning to start carrying science-fiction PDFs for games other than Traveller. The first of which, from Ronin Arts for d20 Future and Star Ace, I am in the process of adding to the catalog now. I'll be announcing that next week.
Hunter
Sounds like a plan... but only if you promise to fix the "review films & books" section smile.gif Can you email me the problem (customersupport@RPGRealms.com) or point me to the thread where it's mentioned? I'm doing a lot of backend work on the site right now and have a chance to look at it at the moment.
Serisouly, it would probably expand Traveller for a lot of authors by throwing off any restraints of having to fit into the official setting(s). I see a lot of potential in it both for us and for the fans. I'm rather excited about the prospect! I think the potentially larger base of supporting material will give Traveller more exposure and appeal. It also lets us see what kind of talent is out there that we might be interested in working with on bringing the product to full production or on other products.
As a side note, we are also planning to start carrying science-fiction PDFs for games other than Traveller. The first of which, from Ronin Arts for d20 Future and Star Ace, I am in the process of adding to the catalog now. I'll be announcing that next week.
Hunter
Jeff M. Hopper
February 5th, 2005, 05:45 AM
I would love to do this. I think that it would harken back to the heyday of Traveller when FASA got its start. I'd like to tackle this head-on and see what could be done with it.
A question, though. How does this apply to fiction written as part of the PDF set in the OTU? I ask, because some of the best gaming material I've ever seen has been the format from the WEG Star Wars Adventure Journal in which a short story was written and interspresed throughout the story were Adventure Seeds and stats for the main characters, worlds, equipment, and starships in the story. I think that Traveller could be very accomodating to that format of product.
A question, though. How does this apply to fiction written as part of the PDF set in the OTU? I ask, because some of the best gaming material I've ever seen has been the format from the WEG Star Wars Adventure Journal in which a short story was written and interspresed throughout the story were Adventure Seeds and stats for the main characters, worlds, equipment, and starships in the story. I think that Traveller could be very accomodating to that format of product.
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
A question, though. How does this apply to fiction written as part of the PDF set in the OTU? I ask, because some of the best gaming material I've ever seen has been the format from the WEG Star Wars Adventure Journal in which a short story was written and interspresed throughout the story were Adventure Seeds and stats for the main characters, worlds, equipment, and starships in the story. I think that Traveller could be very accomodating to that format of product. As we currently envision things working this wouldn't be acceptable. The OTU would be off-limits. The problem being potential conflict with future canon material, introduction of concepts that are not valid in canon, etc. If we allow the Traveller compatible logo to be used with the OTU, it would imply offical approval of that material (ie: canonicity).
Hunter
A question, though. How does this apply to fiction written as part of the PDF set in the OTU? I ask, because some of the best gaming material I've ever seen has been the format from the WEG Star Wars Adventure Journal in which a short story was written and interspresed throughout the story were Adventure Seeds and stats for the main characters, worlds, equipment, and starships in the story. I think that Traveller could be very accomodating to that format of product. As we currently envision things working this wouldn't be acceptable. The OTU would be off-limits. The problem being potential conflict with future canon material, introduction of concepts that are not valid in canon, etc. If we allow the Traveller compatible logo to be used with the OTU, it would imply offical approval of that material (ie: canonicity).
Hunter
Jeff M. Hopper
February 5th, 2005, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by hunter:
As we currently envision things working this wouldn't be acceptable. The OTU would be off-limits. The problem being potential conflict with future canon material, introduction of concepts that are not valid in canon, etc. If we allow the Traveller compatible logo to be used with the OTU, it would imply offical approval of that material (ie: canonicity).
Hunter Would it be possible to do this outside of the OTU and have it still be considered Traveller compatible?
I'm thinking that this is a dumb question, but I am very excited by this possibility.
As we currently envision things working this wouldn't be acceptable. The OTU would be off-limits. The problem being potential conflict with future canon material, introduction of concepts that are not valid in canon, etc. If we allow the Traveller compatible logo to be used with the OTU, it would imply offical approval of that material (ie: canonicity).
Hunter Would it be possible to do this outside of the OTU and have it still be considered Traveller compatible?
I'm thinking that this is a dumb question, but I am very excited by this possibility.
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Would it be possible to do this outside of the OTU and have it still be considered Traveller compatible?
I'm thinking that this is a dumb question, but I am very excited by this possibility. Yes you could write it in a non-OTU setting and use the Traveller compatible logo. The 'compatibility' is refering to mechanical compatibility not setting. So you could write and adventure that is CT compatible but it cannot be set in the OTU specifically.
Hunter
Would it be possible to do this outside of the OTU and have it still be considered Traveller compatible?
I'm thinking that this is a dumb question, but I am very excited by this possibility. Yes you could write it in a non-OTU setting and use the Traveller compatible logo. The 'compatibility' is refering to mechanical compatibility not setting. So you could write and adventure that is CT compatible but it cannot be set in the OTU specifically.
Hunter
hirch duckfinder
February 5th, 2005, 06:42 AM
not wishing to dampen enthusiasm , but isn't there a chance this could dilute traveller and make it very confusing? there are already lots of systems , lots of settings could leave the newcomer bewildered.
also , doesn't this already go on freely within the forums ? would the difference just be that we would have to pay to download (for example) adventures from the f-library? what about quality control ? having lots of mediocre product doesn't help anybody.
just my 2 pence worth.
also , doesn't this already go on freely within the forums ? would the difference just be that we would have to pay to download (for example) adventures from the f-library? what about quality control ? having lots of mediocre product doesn't help anybody.
just my 2 pence worth.
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by hirch duckfinder:
not wishing to dampen enthusiasm , but isn't there a chance this could dilute traveller and make it very confusing? there are already lots of systems , lots of settings could leave the newcomer bewildered.I doubt any more so than a newcomer to D&D with regard to PDF offerings.
also , doesn't this already go on freely within the forums ? would the difference just be that we would have to pay to download (for example) adventures from the f-library? what about quality control ? having lots of mediocre product doesn't help anybody.Again, how is this much different from the current situation for D&D? There are tons of places on the net to get free D&D campaigns, adventures, etc., yet the paid market for them doesn't seem to notice.
There will always be chaff among any group of products. It doesn't take long for word to get around to avoid them and those that produce them. You will also notice I mentioned we have the right to revoke the license for a product.
It is however one of the things we do want to give consideration as to what we can do to prevent truly low quality work for entering the system ahead of time.
just my 2 pence worth. Exactly the reason I brought it up ;)
Hunter
not wishing to dampen enthusiasm , but isn't there a chance this could dilute traveller and make it very confusing? there are already lots of systems , lots of settings could leave the newcomer bewildered.I doubt any more so than a newcomer to D&D with regard to PDF offerings.
also , doesn't this already go on freely within the forums ? would the difference just be that we would have to pay to download (for example) adventures from the f-library? what about quality control ? having lots of mediocre product doesn't help anybody.Again, how is this much different from the current situation for D&D? There are tons of places on the net to get free D&D campaigns, adventures, etc., yet the paid market for them doesn't seem to notice.
There will always be chaff among any group of products. It doesn't take long for word to get around to avoid them and those that produce them. You will also notice I mentioned we have the right to revoke the license for a product.
It is however one of the things we do want to give consideration as to what we can do to prevent truly low quality work for entering the system ahead of time.
just my 2 pence worth. Exactly the reason I brought it up ;)
Hunter
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 07:23 AM
Let me also repeat that this is all in the 'What If' phase. Yes we are considering it and want to explore the possibilities, but a final decision has not been made. I want to see want the interest is, what problems folks might foresee, and what we might do about those problems if anything.
Hunter
Hunter
RandyT0001
February 5th, 2005, 12:02 PM
Interested? Yes!
Questions?
1. Would we have to create the pdf's or would you do it? (I going to guess that the author will have to do it but I would like a clear answer.)
2. If the author has 'Ancients' whose descendents are not part of the setting (ie Dryone) but did scatter species about the galaxy would that be too closely related to OTU 'Ancients' for this limited license?
3. What is the estimated cost of this license and who determines the price of items sold under it, QLI, Marc or the author?
4. Would the limited license permit out-sourcing of material (deckplans, illustrations, adventures, etc.) for the license holder to use with his material?
I'm sure I'll think of more questions later. I hope to see it happen.
Questions?
1. Would we have to create the pdf's or would you do it? (I going to guess that the author will have to do it but I would like a clear answer.)
2. If the author has 'Ancients' whose descendents are not part of the setting (ie Dryone) but did scatter species about the galaxy would that be too closely related to OTU 'Ancients' for this limited license?
3. What is the estimated cost of this license and who determines the price of items sold under it, QLI, Marc or the author?
4. Would the limited license permit out-sourcing of material (deckplans, illustrations, adventures, etc.) for the license holder to use with his material?
I'm sure I'll think of more questions later. I hope to see it happen.
Lord Iron Wolf
February 5th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Hi Hunter,
It sounds like a good idea and would allow a lot of intellectual expansion of the Traveller universe (even if it isn't OTU.) My question would be format: word count, graphics, art and any other things.
Also would the pdf's sold be physical disks and/or downloads? Is there a restriction to file size due to some of us poor sob's being restricted to dial-up? (myself included :( ) Would there be some form of security to keep a pdf from spawning itself all over the world wide web?
I'd probably use Classic Traveller system and try to use the LBB format for adventures. It sounds interesting, I could convert some of my old games to Traveller Adventures.
Lord Iron Wolf
It sounds like a good idea and would allow a lot of intellectual expansion of the Traveller universe (even if it isn't OTU.) My question would be format: word count, graphics, art and any other things.
Also would the pdf's sold be physical disks and/or downloads? Is there a restriction to file size due to some of us poor sob's being restricted to dial-up? (myself included :( ) Would there be some form of security to keep a pdf from spawning itself all over the world wide web?
I'd probably use Classic Traveller system and try to use the LBB format for adventures. It sounds interesting, I could convert some of my old games to Traveller Adventures.
Lord Iron Wolf
Gruffty
February 5th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Definitely interested!
Hunter, any ideas on the cost of a license/ce on the described basis?
<rummages through wallet.........>
Hunter, any ideas on the cost of a license/ce on the described basis?
<rummages through wallet.........>
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 04:34 PM
As far as GT goes, I have no control over that. I'm pretty sure if we go ahead with this and SJG is interested in doing the same Marc would approve it, though I can't say positively one way or the other. The licensing there is between Marc and SJG.
On the fees, that is something we are still kicking around.
On the OTU issues, I see this is something we are going to have to detail out a bit if we do this.
I want to thank everyone who has responded so far. Your comments are helping me to figure out some questions we haven't asked ourselves yet! Keep them coming please!
On the fees, that is something we are still kicking around.
On the OTU issues, I see this is something we are going to have to detail out a bit if we do this.
I want to thank everyone who has responded so far. Your comments are helping me to figure out some questions we haven't asked ourselves yet! Keep them coming please!
mike wightman
February 5th, 2005, 04:56 PM
Where does LBB:8 Robots fit into all this?
Can an author of a non OTU adventure/supplement use the stuff in there?
As others have said, the OTU and the Traveller rules, especially books 4-8, are so tied up it is difficult to know which bits are allowed and which bits aren't.
The problem gets worse with MT and TNE, since the rules and setting are so entangled.
T20, T4 and CT B1-7 are probably the easiest to separate from background material, and are the most internally consistent with each other with regards to tech paradigms.
Can an author of a non OTU adventure/supplement use the stuff in there?
As others have said, the OTU and the Traveller rules, especially books 4-8, are so tied up it is difficult to know which bits are allowed and which bits aren't.
The problem gets worse with MT and TNE, since the rules and setting are so entangled.
T20, T4 and CT B1-7 are probably the easiest to separate from background material, and are the most internally consistent with each other with regards to tech paradigms.
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by thrash:
Is the Traveller's Aid Society fair to use? It appeared in the original Book 1 (p. 22), long before there was any published OTU setting. The same question applies to "air/rafts," or any of the original standard ship types (though not their class designations, which came later). Possession of "scouts" or "free traders" is a mechanical result of character generation (ibid., pp. 22-23).Off the top of my head I would say no to TAS, but yes to the rest. 'Air/rafts' while pretty specific to Traveller is still fairly generic, and 'scouts' and 'free traders' are certainly generic terms.
How about the Hiver Technical Academy? It is explicitly an option for character development in TNE (p. 41). Similarly, there are specific mods to TNE's starship allocation process (p. 38) based on whether the ship is obtained in the Regency or not.I'd say no on the HTA, but the Regency ship stuff could probably be worked out.
Unless you can clearly define the difference between setting and mechanics for all the versions you support, I think you're asking for headaches. It might be simpler to clearly label all such products as Unofficial Variants instead, or market it as "Traveller My Way" -- maybe adopt "IMTU"?
Certainly looking that way! This is why I brought this up. Excellents points we need to consider and deal with.
Is there a fee associated with the license? That is, does some part of the profits accrue to Mr. Miller or QLI above the actual overhead of creating and selling the .pdf? If so, I would be uncomfortable with revocation "at any time for any reason," where I wouldn't be with "reasons of quality and decency." After all, I am paying for the privilege, and I have a reasonable expectation of a return on my investment. (If the license is gratis after extracting reasonable expenses, of course, I have nothing to say.)Current thinking is no upfront fees or if they are fairly minimal. As for the cancellation of the license for a product, I see that happening only for violations of decency/quality or for someone attempting to sell the product outside the channels we have permitted.
In fact, I'm not sure I see why there should be any reason to pull a license after publication. Mr. Miller and QLI should review each submission for quality, decency, and compliance with the terms of the license (e.g., use of OTU trademarks) before acceptance. Once the product is accepted and the license is granted, what would legitimately cause a product's license to be pulled? Hidden plagiarism or something, perhaps, but that would be a violation of the license per se.We are looking at this more along the lines of the d20 License, in which the publisher producing the product is responsible for making sure the product is within the guidelines specified. Trying to take on the task of reviewing every submission would take a considerable amount of our time if enough submissions are made.
One thing we are considering is an 'review or advisory council' of fans who would handle this for us in return for copies of the product.
6) This license would cover all version of the Traveller rules except for GURPS: Traveller.I understand why this has to be from your point of view, but not from Mr. Miller's. He should be able to offer the same deal (less t20 products) to SJ Games, through their existing e23 system.
In any case, this stipulation drastically lowers my personal level of interest.[/qb][/quote]
As mentioned in another post, this is not within my realm to comment on. Marc and SJG would have to work this out. What we are considering at the moment is the proposal I made to Marc on the material I have the ability to work with. Personally if this is something we do, I'd love to see GT as part of it.
As a separate issue, what about Traveller material for non-Traveller game systems, e.g., Fuzion or FUDGE? Of course, the author would be responsible for conforming to the individual licensing requirements of the system in question as well. (I've toyed with a non-OTU FUDGE Traveller campaign off and on for years, so it's not an idle question.) I wouldn't see this as a problem myself, but I will talk with Marc about it.
Hunter
Is the Traveller's Aid Society fair to use? It appeared in the original Book 1 (p. 22), long before there was any published OTU setting. The same question applies to "air/rafts," or any of the original standard ship types (though not their class designations, which came later). Possession of "scouts" or "free traders" is a mechanical result of character generation (ibid., pp. 22-23).Off the top of my head I would say no to TAS, but yes to the rest. 'Air/rafts' while pretty specific to Traveller is still fairly generic, and 'scouts' and 'free traders' are certainly generic terms.
How about the Hiver Technical Academy? It is explicitly an option for character development in TNE (p. 41). Similarly, there are specific mods to TNE's starship allocation process (p. 38) based on whether the ship is obtained in the Regency or not.I'd say no on the HTA, but the Regency ship stuff could probably be worked out.
Unless you can clearly define the difference between setting and mechanics for all the versions you support, I think you're asking for headaches. It might be simpler to clearly label all such products as Unofficial Variants instead, or market it as "Traveller My Way" -- maybe adopt "IMTU"?
Certainly looking that way! This is why I brought this up. Excellents points we need to consider and deal with.
Is there a fee associated with the license? That is, does some part of the profits accrue to Mr. Miller or QLI above the actual overhead of creating and selling the .pdf? If so, I would be uncomfortable with revocation "at any time for any reason," where I wouldn't be with "reasons of quality and decency." After all, I am paying for the privilege, and I have a reasonable expectation of a return on my investment. (If the license is gratis after extracting reasonable expenses, of course, I have nothing to say.)Current thinking is no upfront fees or if they are fairly minimal. As for the cancellation of the license for a product, I see that happening only for violations of decency/quality or for someone attempting to sell the product outside the channels we have permitted.
In fact, I'm not sure I see why there should be any reason to pull a license after publication. Mr. Miller and QLI should review each submission for quality, decency, and compliance with the terms of the license (e.g., use of OTU trademarks) before acceptance. Once the product is accepted and the license is granted, what would legitimately cause a product's license to be pulled? Hidden plagiarism or something, perhaps, but that would be a violation of the license per se.We are looking at this more along the lines of the d20 License, in which the publisher producing the product is responsible for making sure the product is within the guidelines specified. Trying to take on the task of reviewing every submission would take a considerable amount of our time if enough submissions are made.
One thing we are considering is an 'review or advisory council' of fans who would handle this for us in return for copies of the product.
6) This license would cover all version of the Traveller rules except for GURPS: Traveller.I understand why this has to be from your point of view, but not from Mr. Miller's. He should be able to offer the same deal (less t20 products) to SJ Games, through their existing e23 system.
In any case, this stipulation drastically lowers my personal level of interest.[/qb][/quote]
As mentioned in another post, this is not within my realm to comment on. Marc and SJG would have to work this out. What we are considering at the moment is the proposal I made to Marc on the material I have the ability to work with. Personally if this is something we do, I'd love to see GT as part of it.
As a separate issue, what about Traveller material for non-Traveller game systems, e.g., Fuzion or FUDGE? Of course, the author would be responsible for conforming to the individual licensing requirements of the system in question as well. (I've toyed with a non-OTU FUDGE Traveller campaign off and on for years, so it's not an idle question.) I wouldn't see this as a problem myself, but I will talk with Marc about it.
Hunter
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
1. Would we have to create the pdf's or would you do it? (I going to guess that the author will have to do it but I would like a clear answer.)The author would be responsible for this. I could however see possibly offering this as a service for an additional fee.
2. If the author has 'Ancients' whose descendents are not part of the setting (ie Dryone) but did scatter species about the galaxy would that be too closely related to OTU 'Ancients' for this limited license?Iffy. I would tend to lean towards allowing it, but will consult with Marc.
3. What is the estimated cost of this license and who determines the price of items sold under it, QLI, Marc or the author?Currently we haven't made a decision on an upfront fee, but it would be minimal if anything. Sale prices would be determined by the author.
4. Would the limited license permit out-sourcing of material (deckplans, illustrations, adventures, etc.) for the license holder to use with his material?Good question, which I will talk with Marc about for an answer.
Hunter
1. Would we have to create the pdf's or would you do it? (I going to guess that the author will have to do it but I would like a clear answer.)The author would be responsible for this. I could however see possibly offering this as a service for an additional fee.
2. If the author has 'Ancients' whose descendents are not part of the setting (ie Dryone) but did scatter species about the galaxy would that be too closely related to OTU 'Ancients' for this limited license?Iffy. I would tend to lean towards allowing it, but will consult with Marc.
3. What is the estimated cost of this license and who determines the price of items sold under it, QLI, Marc or the author?Currently we haven't made a decision on an upfront fee, but it would be minimal if anything. Sale prices would be determined by the author.
4. Would the limited license permit out-sourcing of material (deckplans, illustrations, adventures, etc.) for the license holder to use with his material?Good question, which I will talk with Marc about for an answer.
Hunter
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Lord Iron Wolf:
Also would the pdf's sold be physical disks and/or downloads? Is there a restriction to file size due to some of us poor sob's being restricted to dial-up? (myself included :( ) Would there be some form of security to keep a pdf from spawning itself all over the world wide web?Actually hadn't thought about CDs, but don't see a problem with us offering them that way as well.
As for security, frankly there isn't anything out there that will prevent material from being pirated despite what some folks think about DRM and Watermarking. None of our own products carry it and those offered through us will not either. About the only thing such security measures do accomplish is ensure that some fans won't touch them with a 3m pole ;)
Hunter
Also would the pdf's sold be physical disks and/or downloads? Is there a restriction to file size due to some of us poor sob's being restricted to dial-up? (myself included :( ) Would there be some form of security to keep a pdf from spawning itself all over the world wide web?Actually hadn't thought about CDs, but don't see a problem with us offering them that way as well.
As for security, frankly there isn't anything out there that will prevent material from being pirated despite what some folks think about DRM and Watermarking. None of our own products carry it and those offered through us will not either. About the only thing such security measures do accomplish is ensure that some fans won't touch them with a 3m pole ;)
Hunter
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by Gruffty:
Definitely interested!
Hunter, any ideas on the cost of a license/ce on the described basis?
<rummages through wallet.........> See previous posts ;)
Hunter
Definitely interested!
Hunter, any ideas on the cost of a license/ce on the described basis?
<rummages through wallet.........> See previous posts ;)
Hunter
hunter
February 5th, 2005, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Where does LBB:8 Robots fit into all this?
Can an author of a non OTU adventure/supplement use the stuff in there?
As others have said, the OTU and the Traveller rules, especially books 4-8, are so tied up it is difficult to know which bits are allowed and which bits aren't.
The problem gets worse with MT and TNE, since the rules and setting are so entangled.
T20, T4 and CT B1-7 are probably the easiest to separate from background material, and are the most internally consistent with each other with regards to tech paradigms. As mentioned previous, this is probably the biggest 'problem' that has come up over the idea. I don't think it is insurmountable or even particularly difficult to deal with.
Hunter
Where does LBB:8 Robots fit into all this?
Can an author of a non OTU adventure/supplement use the stuff in there?
As others have said, the OTU and the Traveller rules, especially books 4-8, are so tied up it is difficult to know which bits are allowed and which bits aren't.
The problem gets worse with MT and TNE, since the rules and setting are so entangled.
T20, T4 and CT B1-7 are probably the easiest to separate from background material, and are the most internally consistent with each other with regards to tech paradigms. As mentioned previous, this is probably the biggest 'problem' that has come up over the idea. I don't think it is insurmountable or even particularly difficult to deal with.
Hunter
clementk
February 5th, 2005, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
1. Would we have to create the pdf's or would you do it? (I going to guess that the author will have to do it but I would like a clear answer.)FWIW there are free products out there that will at least export text to pdf like OpenOffice and Ghostscript/Ghostgum. Also some free internet conversion sites IIRC. Still a standard style/style guide and pdf format documents would be very nice.
Casey
1. Would we have to create the pdf's or would you do it? (I going to guess that the author will have to do it but I would like a clear answer.)FWIW there are free products out there that will at least export text to pdf like OpenOffice and Ghostscript/Ghostgum. Also some free internet conversion sites IIRC. Still a standard style/style guide and pdf format documents would be very nice.
Casey
vutpakdi
February 5th, 2005, 06:04 PM
I'm interested, but I'd have to see the details of the license. In particular the structure of license fees would probably be the most critical.
A large up front fee or a relatively large per copy fee would probably make me lose interest quickly. For example, if the up front fee were $100 or the per copy fee were $1, then I'd be pretty darn reluctant to try anything since I'd probably most be interested in putting out ship deckplans for a couple of bucks a copy.
Ron
A large up front fee or a relatively large per copy fee would probably make me lose interest quickly. For example, if the up front fee were $100 or the per copy fee were $1, then I'd be pretty darn reluctant to try anything since I'd probably most be interested in putting out ship deckplans for a couple of bucks a copy.
Ron
Pompe
February 5th, 2005, 08:05 PM
I might be interested concerning world-building stuff, but I don't think I'd be comfortable with this solution, at least not as it looks.
First is as some already have mentioned the distinction between mechanics and setting. If I'd like to write rules for alternate/harder/better/updated/more exciting worlds in the Traveller universe, I'd find it hard to not go into setting specifics, as it is those mechanics I'm trying to offer an alternative to. The license is only interesting if I can offer it to tell presumptive readers/buyers how they can use my work in Traveller and what the results might be when trying to use them in the OTU or something very much like it.
The second problem as I'd see it for any more generic/sizable rule supplement is whether it is worth to limit it to this web-site only. I might well be interested in making a deal for a "Compatible With Traveller"-logo on my finished worldgen system, but mot if it'd hurt my ability to pitch it to those who don't care about Traveller.
First is as some already have mentioned the distinction between mechanics and setting. If I'd like to write rules for alternate/harder/better/updated/more exciting worlds in the Traveller universe, I'd find it hard to not go into setting specifics, as it is those mechanics I'm trying to offer an alternative to. The license is only interesting if I can offer it to tell presumptive readers/buyers how they can use my work in Traveller and what the results might be when trying to use them in the OTU or something very much like it.
The second problem as I'd see it for any more generic/sizable rule supplement is whether it is worth to limit it to this web-site only. I might well be interested in making a deal for a "Compatible With Traveller"-logo on my finished worldgen system, but mot if it'd hurt my ability to pitch it to those who don't care about Traveller.
Spinward Scout
February 5th, 2005, 08:27 PM
I would be interested as well. I've been working on three part adventure that would diverge from the OTU. I wanted to run it as a game, but the people that talked about playing backed out. I'd hate to see my work go to waste. The part I'm a little confused about is the "No compatibility with the OTU, nor any use of OTU material could be used" part. My game diverges from the OTU around year 1110 and ends up being a very different world/universe after that. Is this something I would be able to use?
Very interesting,
Scout
Very interesting,
Scout
Fritz_Brown
February 5th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Have you taken a look (recently) at the JTAS "Writing for us" rules? Most of it is not directly applicable, but it has some info that might be considered. (http://jtas.sjgames.com/writing.html)
I think a review "council" would be a good idea. Then you can pre-approve at least the first submission from someone for the license. 'Cause, if you're going to revoke the license, you're going to have to look at it anyway....
A standard format would be nice, as well.
I think this is a great idea, but - if it isn't controlled well - it could be a nasty can of worms you're opening. :rolleyes:
I think a review "council" would be a good idea. Then you can pre-approve at least the first submission from someone for the license. 'Cause, if you're going to revoke the license, you're going to have to look at it anyway....
A standard format would be nice, as well.
I think this is a great idea, but - if it isn't controlled well - it could be a nasty can of worms you're opening. :rolleyes:
RandyT0001
February 5th, 2005, 09:21 PM
Assuming that this comes about and I got a limited license:
Would this 'standard' format dictate that all my adventures set in my alternate Travller universe have to be 12 pages long using a certain font/ header format with x number of illustrations/ diagrams/ maps? Don't get me wrong, I agree that the products should be well laid out and presentable but I think that if some one produces poor material he would see little sales, spurning him to improve his product or have the license pulled.
If there is a seperate 'review council' where my work might be delayed due to a councilor being absent (for whatever reason) for an extended period of time then I'm losing potential sales. If I were to publish 'indecent' material I'm sure the offended person would quickly send QLI a note about it. Probably I would be given the chance to quickly fix it or lose the license. Who chooses who will be on the 'review board', it shouldn't be potential competitiors (others who have a license)? Do I get compensation for the copies of my work sent to the 'review board'? What's to keep a member of the 'review board' from distributing copies of my work, ruining my sales? I know that once the pdf is made available for sale there is nothing to prevent copies from being distributed by this first buyer without further compesation but at least I got a sale for my work.
I understand the appeal of a 'standard' format and a 'review board' to maintaining quality control on products released through QLI and with 'Traveller' on it but I think that market forces, sales, should prevail here. If someone produces very poor quality work or indecent material word will quickly get back to QLI and/or Marc then the license (if not quickly fixed) would get pulled. I don't think that this license would be a term based thing (like for a year) but more a unit based thing (per individual product).
IMO
Would this 'standard' format dictate that all my adventures set in my alternate Travller universe have to be 12 pages long using a certain font/ header format with x number of illustrations/ diagrams/ maps? Don't get me wrong, I agree that the products should be well laid out and presentable but I think that if some one produces poor material he would see little sales, spurning him to improve his product or have the license pulled.
If there is a seperate 'review council' where my work might be delayed due to a councilor being absent (for whatever reason) for an extended period of time then I'm losing potential sales. If I were to publish 'indecent' material I'm sure the offended person would quickly send QLI a note about it. Probably I would be given the chance to quickly fix it or lose the license. Who chooses who will be on the 'review board', it shouldn't be potential competitiors (others who have a license)? Do I get compensation for the copies of my work sent to the 'review board'? What's to keep a member of the 'review board' from distributing copies of my work, ruining my sales? I know that once the pdf is made available for sale there is nothing to prevent copies from being distributed by this first buyer without further compesation but at least I got a sale for my work.
I understand the appeal of a 'standard' format and a 'review board' to maintaining quality control on products released through QLI and with 'Traveller' on it but I think that market forces, sales, should prevail here. If someone produces very poor quality work or indecent material word will quickly get back to QLI and/or Marc then the license (if not quickly fixed) would get pulled. I don't think that this license would be a term based thing (like for a year) but more a unit based thing (per individual product).
IMO
clementk
February 5th, 2005, 10:06 PM
I am referring mainly to the Style Guide thread (link) (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000114) that seemed to go nowhere. Or perhaps the thread suggestions themselves are supposed to be a style guide? :confused: :rolleyes: There are some formatting tips and word usage material on this site but at least one 404.
So could someone use this, for example, to compile the various rules from CT books 1-8, Striker, AHL, Snapshot, make generic alien chargen rules from the Alien Books, the task system, etc. and give the whole thing a coherent streamline to make an honest to goodness complete CT rulesbook? ;) tongue.gif graemlins/file_23.gif Seperate tech trees and 'verse options built in would be great as well but I don't think CT can stretch that far without major rewrites and changes. Or an errata fixed MT and T4? Maybe this is how T5 actually could be released! :eek: graemlins/file_23.gif
As is I see this useful for publishing some things like add ons to FF&S, UWP generation, and similar. Things that could be very useful and which people want to write but are seen as not worth the amount of time and effort to do for free. Also homebrew 'verses bounded by OTU assumptions. Interesting that TPTB are finally trying (along with FF&S and the T20 licensed games) to seperate the OTU from Traveller somewhat. Hope it's doable.
So could someone use this, for example, to compile the various rules from CT books 1-8, Striker, AHL, Snapshot, make generic alien chargen rules from the Alien Books, the task system, etc. and give the whole thing a coherent streamline to make an honest to goodness complete CT rulesbook? ;) tongue.gif graemlins/file_23.gif Seperate tech trees and 'verse options built in would be great as well but I don't think CT can stretch that far without major rewrites and changes. Or an errata fixed MT and T4? Maybe this is how T5 actually could be released! :eek: graemlins/file_23.gif
As is I see this useful for publishing some things like add ons to FF&S, UWP generation, and similar. Things that could be very useful and which people want to write but are seen as not worth the amount of time and effort to do for free. Also homebrew 'verses bounded by OTU assumptions. Interesting that TPTB are finally trying (along with FF&S and the T20 licensed games) to seperate the OTU from Traveller somewhat. Hope it's doable.
clementk
February 5th, 2005, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
Would this 'standard' format dictate that all my adventures <snip of have to bes> but I think that if some one produces poor material he would see little sales, spurning him to improve his product or have the license pulled.Unlike say the OGL these products are all going to be sold from one place, QLI and will be associated in at least a small way with QLI. So some basic style guidelines can't hurt one bit. See my previous post for a link to a CotI thread on the subject. I don't think page length and # of illos matter as much as basic formating and use of language and terms.
If there is a seperate 'review council' where my work might be delayed due to a councilor being absent (for whatever reason) for an extended period of time then I'm losing potential sales.It sounds like someone's going to need to review it anyway to see if it violates the big stipulation of the contract, no OTU. Otherwise you'd have versions with the OTU material still in it out there in violation of license.
Would this 'standard' format dictate that all my adventures <snip of have to bes> but I think that if some one produces poor material he would see little sales, spurning him to improve his product or have the license pulled.Unlike say the OGL these products are all going to be sold from one place, QLI and will be associated in at least a small way with QLI. So some basic style guidelines can't hurt one bit. See my previous post for a link to a CotI thread on the subject. I don't think page length and # of illos matter as much as basic formating and use of language and terms.
If there is a seperate 'review council' where my work might be delayed due to a councilor being absent (for whatever reason) for an extended period of time then I'm losing potential sales.It sounds like someone's going to need to review it anyway to see if it violates the big stipulation of the contract, no OTU. Otherwise you'd have versions with the OTU material still in it out there in violation of license.
RandyT0001
February 5th, 2005, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Casey:
Unlike say the OGL these products are all going to be sold from one place, QLI and will be associated in at least a small way with QLI. So some basic style guidelines can't hurt one bit. Maybe my choice of header/text font and point size are something that I consider sets my work apart from QLI publications. QLI sells other products (Loren's ship's boat for example, and I know Loren has a totally seperate license from Marc for it, apart from QLI) that don't follow the style guidelines as specified by QLI (from what I see in the demo download). It is a good product, nice layout in legible text. Why should I be held to QLI's product style guidelines when I have a seperate limited license? QLI (and Marc) is getting a share of the sale price and restricting my ability to sell the product (only through QLI) regardless of my formatting choices.
It sounds like someone's going to need to review it anyway to see if it violates the big stipulation of the contract, no OTU. At present there are only two people that can do that, Hunter and Marc, since they are the ones offering this limited license. Loren couldn't do it because he is not a party to this limited license offer. Now if Hunter and/or Marc can give enough details, restrictions and specifications about what is and what isn't OTU, as far as the limited license permits, to a 'review board' then why couldn't they just give that same information to the buyers of the limited license in the first place? If a license holder, who is given the OTU restrictions by Hunter/ Marc, is found to violate it then Hunter has the ability to quickly delete those products from the catalog here at QLI.
Unlike say the OGL these products are all going to be sold from one place, QLI and will be associated in at least a small way with QLI. So some basic style guidelines can't hurt one bit. Maybe my choice of header/text font and point size are something that I consider sets my work apart from QLI publications. QLI sells other products (Loren's ship's boat for example, and I know Loren has a totally seperate license from Marc for it, apart from QLI) that don't follow the style guidelines as specified by QLI (from what I see in the demo download). It is a good product, nice layout in legible text. Why should I be held to QLI's product style guidelines when I have a seperate limited license? QLI (and Marc) is getting a share of the sale price and restricting my ability to sell the product (only through QLI) regardless of my formatting choices.
It sounds like someone's going to need to review it anyway to see if it violates the big stipulation of the contract, no OTU. At present there are only two people that can do that, Hunter and Marc, since they are the ones offering this limited license. Loren couldn't do it because he is not a party to this limited license offer. Now if Hunter and/or Marc can give enough details, restrictions and specifications about what is and what isn't OTU, as far as the limited license permits, to a 'review board' then why couldn't they just give that same information to the buyers of the limited license in the first place? If a license holder, who is given the OTU restrictions by Hunter/ Marc, is found to violate it then Hunter has the ability to quickly delete those products from the catalog here at QLI.
far-trader
February 5th, 2005, 11:36 PM
Hunter, put me down as interested too, in fact I was half-way through composing how to approach you about an idea much like this. Of course I'm probably more of a reviewer/editor/proofer/critic by nature, and have a pretty fair grasp of OTU* I think, so I might be better suited to the review panel bit once you decide how it's going to work.
* or rather my own idea of what defines OTU which may differ from what is finally decided, but that can be covered by some rules I think
* or rather my own idea of what defines OTU which may differ from what is finally decided, but that can be covered by some rules I think
clementk
February 6th, 2005, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by Randy Tyler:
Maybe my choice of header/text font and point size are something that I consider sets my work apart from QLI publications. QLI sells other products (Loren's ship's boat for example, and I know Loren has a totally seperate license from Marc for it, apart from QLI) that don't follow the style guidelines as specified by QLI (from what I see in the demo download). It is a good product, nice layout in legible text. Why should I be held to QLI's product style guidelines when I have a seperate limited license? QLI (and Marc) is getting a share of the sale price and restricting my ability to sell the product (only through QLI) regardless of my formatting choices.I was meaning a basic style guide for these new publications. Since these aren’t QLI publications they IMO (but I’m just a CotI member and further these publications wouldn't reflect on me or a work of mine) wouldn’t have to be binding (see below though), more of a “Here’s a guide to beginners or for people who don’t normally bother with this type of thing�. If you look at the actually finished style guides linked to in the aforementioned thread (page 2 mostly) they are usually more than just header/text font and point sizes. Admittedly that’s about all that the one here on QLI is currently but even it has a section on term usage.
For that matter LKW’s pdf is sold in at least one other site, RPGNow.com, not just here on QLI’s site, and he has a full license from MWM. I’m not suggesting that these products look exactly (or even remotely) like QLI publications or that they all look the same. It sounds like someone's going to need to review it anyway to see if it violates the big stipulation of the contract, no OTU. At present there are only two people that can do that, Hunter and Marc, since they are the ones offering this limited license. <snip> Now if Hunter and/or Marc can give enough details, restrictions and specifications about what is and what isn't OTU, as far as the limited license permits, to a 'review board' then why couldn't they just give that same information to the buyers of the limited license in the first place? If a license holder, who is given the OTU restrictions by Hunter/ Marc, is found to violate it then Hunter has the ability to quickly delete those products from the catalog here at QLI. Well no offense to Hunter (RL is RL and all) but he’s not been the quickest at such things lately. It does run the risk of substandard or indecent material being released and Lordie knows T4 already built up enough substandard material for Traveller*. graemlins/file_28.gif This is up to TPTB of course. I have no idea how this is handled with a full license. Hunter was the one who mentioned a review board in the first place and I’ve done enough speculating already. graemlins/file_23.gif
A style guide would be a good place to lay down such things as what terms and material can and can’t be used and how.
* I only got back into Traveller after T4 from T20 lite completely missing GT and the CT reprints until after that
Maybe my choice of header/text font and point size are something that I consider sets my work apart from QLI publications. QLI sells other products (Loren's ship's boat for example, and I know Loren has a totally seperate license from Marc for it, apart from QLI) that don't follow the style guidelines as specified by QLI (from what I see in the demo download). It is a good product, nice layout in legible text. Why should I be held to QLI's product style guidelines when I have a seperate limited license? QLI (and Marc) is getting a share of the sale price and restricting my ability to sell the product (only through QLI) regardless of my formatting choices.I was meaning a basic style guide for these new publications. Since these aren’t QLI publications they IMO (but I’m just a CotI member and further these publications wouldn't reflect on me or a work of mine) wouldn’t have to be binding (see below though), more of a “Here’s a guide to beginners or for people who don’t normally bother with this type of thing�. If you look at the actually finished style guides linked to in the aforementioned thread (page 2 mostly) they are usually more than just header/text font and point sizes. Admittedly that’s about all that the one here on QLI is currently but even it has a section on term usage.
For that matter LKW’s pdf is sold in at least one other site, RPGNow.com, not just here on QLI’s site, and he has a full license from MWM. I’m not suggesting that these products look exactly (or even remotely) like QLI publications or that they all look the same. It sounds like someone's going to need to review it anyway to see if it violates the big stipulation of the contract, no OTU. At present there are only two people that can do that, Hunter and Marc, since they are the ones offering this limited license. <snip> Now if Hunter and/or Marc can give enough details, restrictions and specifications about what is and what isn't OTU, as far as the limited license permits, to a 'review board' then why couldn't they just give that same information to the buyers of the limited license in the first place? If a license holder, who is given the OTU restrictions by Hunter/ Marc, is found to violate it then Hunter has the ability to quickly delete those products from the catalog here at QLI. Well no offense to Hunter (RL is RL and all) but he’s not been the quickest at such things lately. It does run the risk of substandard or indecent material being released and Lordie knows T4 already built up enough substandard material for Traveller*. graemlins/file_28.gif This is up to TPTB of course. I have no idea how this is handled with a full license. Hunter was the one who mentioned a review board in the first place and I’ve done enough speculating already. graemlins/file_23.gif
A style guide would be a good place to lay down such things as what terms and material can and can’t be used and how.
* I only got back into Traveller after T4 from T20 lite completely missing GT and the CT reprints until after that
Blue Ghost
February 6th, 2005, 06:32 AM
I don't see a real problem with any of this. Common sense dictates that generic artifacts ought to be free game, but anything (proper noun-things) will be off limits. I don't mean to offend, but some of you are really parseing some items that are really rather obvious.
And, like a couple others have said, if this thing goes through, then you really needn't worry about it, since Avery or Hunter will give it back with huge swaths of red crossed through verboten references.
Let's use some common sense here, and take off our rules' lawyer hats... if only for the time being.
p.s. I hope I didn't come off as being to coarse. These are important issues, afterall, and we should get some clear directives from the almighty Traveller PTBs smile.gif
And, like a couple others have said, if this thing goes through, then you really needn't worry about it, since Avery or Hunter will give it back with huge swaths of red crossed through verboten references.
Let's use some common sense here, and take off our rules' lawyer hats... if only for the time being.
p.s. I hope I didn't come off as being to coarse. These are important issues, afterall, and we should get some clear directives from the almighty Traveller PTBs smile.gif
hirch duckfinder
February 6th, 2005, 06:36 AM
one more question - will this slow down otu production at all ? will the most talented writers still be able to get more rewards for goig the otu/qli route?
(personally i'm most interested in otu if i want another type of sci-fi i would probably go for another very well known franchise...)
(personally i'm most interested in otu if i want another type of sci-fi i would probably go for another very well known franchise...)
RandyT0001
February 8th, 2005, 07:50 PM
Hunter,
Assuming that this comes about I have a couple of more questions:
1. Will the buyers of this limited license be listed on the catalog page here like Ronin Arts and Loren K Wiseman are (once products are made available)?
2. Will limited license holders have an independent way to upload their products to the catalog instead of relying on you to upload it for them?
Assuming that this comes about I have a couple of more questions:
1. Will the buyers of this limited license be listed on the catalog page here like Ronin Arts and Loren K Wiseman are (once products are made available)?
2. Will limited license holders have an independent way to upload their products to the catalog instead of relying on you to upload it for them?
kaladorn
February 8th, 2005, 11:06 PM
My own thoughts:
1) Mark me as very interested. Within the last week and a half, I just approached Mr. Miller by e-mail about the idea of some form of limited license. Mind you, I'd prefer one that let me use a few references to the OTU, but <shrugs>....
2) Is there any reason we couldn't have a license that lets us involve the OTU in approximately as much detail as the current Fair Use policy permits? (Less than a page, or with just a few references?) Perhaps there is (I'm not IP lawyer). But perhaps there would be a way to grant a limited use to use the OTU. The particular case I'm thinking of is the old Lee's Guide to Adventure. Nice generic adventures, specified in terms of the UWPs required for the planet. But then they go on to provide examples by name and sector (but that's all... less than 2 lines of text per adventure) of where you *could* situate them within the OTU. Could you write such a wonderful document and leave that out... but then probably publish 'suggestions' on the web separately under Fair Use?
3) Are standard deck plan icons from the various deck plan supplements fair game? If I want to draw custom deck plans, I want the user to have a 'Traveller feel' to them. (A good example of this kind of compatibility is some of the FASA stuff, a bad example of compatibility from a look and feel perspective is the old Judge's Guild sectors, where they made all system icons look like stars which just doesn't feel right for those used to GDW's maps).
4) Would an LBB-like feel (say convincing Berka to let me use the LBB book cover generator to produce a nice cover) be an infringement of anyone's designs/rights? I would like to produce adventures that had an LBB-esque feel to them (the meat would be in the adventure itself, not the flashy multicolour artworks filling up vast amounts of space...). Do we think this would fly, from a permission perspective?
5) Supplements which offer alternate or extended rules - would that be acceptable? I particularly think of doing stuff for MT, but using only 'canon' rules (as opposed to 'forbidden canon' stuff). For that, a refresher on MT's Canon/Forbidden Canon might not hurt (which items you can draw from, mechanically).
6) Conjecturally, the author still holds copyright. Does this imply they can withdraw their permission to produce and distribute an item if they wish? <no idea why, just wondered>
7) Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). He didn't explain their systems, he didn't do much more than say 'they exist' and establish a mapping between task difficulty levels. This chart allowed him to then talk in terms of difficulty levels for all of his rules - and each GM could apply his own appropriate conversion. Would something like this be acceptable? I mean, do you need SJG's permission to publish a small chart that equates a Difficult Task to a particular difficulty under GT? If so, perhaps QLI or Marc should work with the various licensees and make this one half page chart 'public domain' and thereby usable as a reference by all Traveller authors. I mean, what it does do is really allow for generic game rules and for portability to other systems... and that should be good for *all* Traveller licensees.
Anyway, very very interested. smile.gif
1) Mark me as very interested. Within the last week and a half, I just approached Mr. Miller by e-mail about the idea of some form of limited license. Mind you, I'd prefer one that let me use a few references to the OTU, but <shrugs>....
2) Is there any reason we couldn't have a license that lets us involve the OTU in approximately as much detail as the current Fair Use policy permits? (Less than a page, or with just a few references?) Perhaps there is (I'm not IP lawyer). But perhaps there would be a way to grant a limited use to use the OTU. The particular case I'm thinking of is the old Lee's Guide to Adventure. Nice generic adventures, specified in terms of the UWPs required for the planet. But then they go on to provide examples by name and sector (but that's all... less than 2 lines of text per adventure) of where you *could* situate them within the OTU. Could you write such a wonderful document and leave that out... but then probably publish 'suggestions' on the web separately under Fair Use?
3) Are standard deck plan icons from the various deck plan supplements fair game? If I want to draw custom deck plans, I want the user to have a 'Traveller feel' to them. (A good example of this kind of compatibility is some of the FASA stuff, a bad example of compatibility from a look and feel perspective is the old Judge's Guild sectors, where they made all system icons look like stars which just doesn't feel right for those used to GDW's maps).
4) Would an LBB-like feel (say convincing Berka to let me use the LBB book cover generator to produce a nice cover) be an infringement of anyone's designs/rights? I would like to produce adventures that had an LBB-esque feel to them (the meat would be in the adventure itself, not the flashy multicolour artworks filling up vast amounts of space...). Do we think this would fly, from a permission perspective?
5) Supplements which offer alternate or extended rules - would that be acceptable? I particularly think of doing stuff for MT, but using only 'canon' rules (as opposed to 'forbidden canon' stuff). For that, a refresher on MT's Canon/Forbidden Canon might not hurt (which items you can draw from, mechanically).
6) Conjecturally, the author still holds copyright. Does this imply they can withdraw their permission to produce and distribute an item if they wish? <no idea why, just wondered>
7) Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). He didn't explain their systems, he didn't do much more than say 'they exist' and establish a mapping between task difficulty levels. This chart allowed him to then talk in terms of difficulty levels for all of his rules - and each GM could apply his own appropriate conversion. Would something like this be acceptable? I mean, do you need SJG's permission to publish a small chart that equates a Difficult Task to a particular difficulty under GT? If so, perhaps QLI or Marc should work with the various licensees and make this one half page chart 'public domain' and thereby usable as a reference by all Traveller authors. I mean, what it does do is really allow for generic game rules and for portability to other systems... and that should be good for *all* Traveller licensees.
Anyway, very very interested. smile.gif
rancke
February 9th, 2005, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by hunter:
3) The product could claim only mechanical compatibility. No compatibility with the OTU, nor any use of OTU material could be used. If you want to do that you need a full license.
Then it wouldn't be Traveller (Not to me, anyway ;) ).
Hans
3) The product could claim only mechanical compatibility. No compatibility with the OTU, nor any use of OTU material could be used. If you want to do that you need a full license.
Then it wouldn't be Traveller (Not to me, anyway ;) ).
Hans
Flynn
February 9th, 2005, 10:34 AM
Hunter,
I'd be very interested in pursuing something along these lines. Please keep us informed if this should come to pass. smile.gif
Thanks for looking out for us,
Flynn
I'd be very interested in pursuing something along these lines. Please keep us informed if this should come to pass. smile.gif
Thanks for looking out for us,
Flynn
Chuck Anumia
February 9th, 2005, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by far-trader:
Hunter, put me down as interested too, in fact I was half-way through composing how to approach you about an idea much like this. Of course I'm probably more of a reviewer/editor/proofer/critic by nature,
_________________________________________________
[qb] cweiskircer I work all week as a Quality Control Specialist, writting, editing, proof reading and training people to work instructions.(CW)
__________________________________________________
I might be better suited to the review panel bit once you decide how it's going to work.
__________________________________________________
I also feel better suited to reviewing than creating. :cool:
I would love to see this work out and may have some small thing to offer. smile.gif
<grins while rubbing credit cards together...>
Hunter, put me down as interested too, in fact I was half-way through composing how to approach you about an idea much like this. Of course I'm probably more of a reviewer/editor/proofer/critic by nature,
_________________________________________________
[qb] cweiskircer I work all week as a Quality Control Specialist, writting, editing, proof reading and training people to work instructions.(CW)
__________________________________________________
I might be better suited to the review panel bit once you decide how it's going to work.
__________________________________________________
I also feel better suited to reviewing than creating. :cool:
I would love to see this work out and may have some small thing to offer. smile.gif
<grins while rubbing credit cards together...>
Antony
February 9th, 2005, 02:52 PM
Also very interested. What about material that I created and have placed on my website. Could this be repackaged or is it a first appearance here deal?
Now assuming I have read this thread right I could do stuff based on my United Nations of Humanity setting but not my TNE Banners Sector Stuff since that sector appears on a couple of maps and has a few states named?
Now assuming I have read this thread right I could do stuff based on my United Nations of Humanity setting but not my TNE Banners Sector Stuff since that sector appears on a couple of maps and has a few states named?
Flynn
February 9th, 2005, 03:39 PM
That does bring up a question: What if I have used the dot maps for stellar positions, but all the UWP data is completely new? (This also assumes that all names are changed to protect the innocent, etc.)
I think that walks the line on the OTU question, but I'm asking because there's some good work out there on alternate sectors and histories using the Solomani Rim as the position for stars as their basis... (Ex: http://www.skaran.net/starkingdom/starkingdom.html )
Hope this helps,
Flynn
I think that walks the line on the OTU question, but I'm asking because there's some good work out there on alternate sectors and histories using the Solomani Rim as the position for stars as their basis... (Ex: http://www.skaran.net/starkingdom/starkingdom.html )
Hope this helps,
Flynn
Jame
February 9th, 2005, 03:46 PM
I have a potential setting to contribute. Problem is, I haven't really typed anything about it, and I'm not sure if I would.
What I'm thinking is selling the setting itself, and letting others develop it.
What I'm thinking is selling the setting itself, and letting others develop it.
robject
February 9th, 2005, 05:52 PM
Count me interested.
Chuck Anumia
February 9th, 2005, 06:26 PM
I have a paper called the Caste of Assassins Mercenary Corps Articles of Operation, Honor and Code of Conduct. The Articles include enlitment,our motto, contracts, Standard Operating Procerdures, our view on Ransom, Code of Conduct, returning fire, leadership responsabilities and enlisted member responsabilities (9 pages total).
This is simply the rules of engagement used by a band of Mercenarys In My Univeres. It is generic enough to be used in any system and at any Technology level.
Would this qualify as a valid Product? :D
This is simply the rules of engagement used by a band of Mercenarys In My Univeres. It is generic enough to be used in any system and at any Technology level.
Would this qualify as a valid Product? :D
kaladorn
February 9th, 2005, 08:13 PM
Seems to me that it could be generic enough Chuck, though you'd have to skirt around mentioning things like the Imperial Rules of War, etc.
It certainly could be a good generic document or at least a pattern usable for a referee wanting to run merc campaigns. I imagine that would be interesting, actually.
Mind you, it'd be more interesting if you could detail the Imperium's view of mercenaries, the degree of compliance with Imperial Law, etc. but obviously that is a whole other ball of wax.
It certainly could be a good generic document or at least a pattern usable for a referee wanting to run merc campaigns. I imagine that would be interesting, actually.
Mind you, it'd be more interesting if you could detail the Imperium's view of mercenaries, the degree of compliance with Imperial Law, etc. but obviously that is a whole other ball of wax.
clementk
February 9th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by kaladorn:
7) Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). If you're referring to the BITS Task system (which is online at the BITS site) - it predated T20 but there's an unofficial extension to it that started on CotI and is on the Freelance Traveller site.
Originally posted by kaladorn:
It certainly could be a good generic document or at least a pattern usable for a referee wanting to run merc campaigns. I imagine that would be interesting, actually.
Mind you, it'd be more interesting if you could detail the Imperium's view of mercenariesGeneric is good though with campaign specific notes is fine if the campaign setting is also available. smile.gif
As for Imperium stuff there's GT: Star Mercs and one of the recent Epics.
7) Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). If you're referring to the BITS Task system (which is online at the BITS site) - it predated T20 but there's an unofficial extension to it that started on CotI and is on the Freelance Traveller site.
Originally posted by kaladorn:
It certainly could be a good generic document or at least a pattern usable for a referee wanting to run merc campaigns. I imagine that would be interesting, actually.
Mind you, it'd be more interesting if you could detail the Imperium's view of mercenariesGeneric is good though with campaign specific notes is fine if the campaign setting is also available. smile.gif
As for Imperium stuff there's GT: Star Mercs and one of the recent Epics.
Flynn
February 10th, 2005, 09:22 AM
What would people want to see of a "Generic" nature? Books on starships, vehicles, robots, etc.? New sectors and background for an alternate universe compatible with Traveller rules? Adventures? I must admit that I'm curious as to what the general Traveller fan would like to see...
Also, as for the BITS task system, I think we'd need permission from BITS before publishing it. As the author of the unofficial T20 extension, I've designated it as Open Game Content, so you can use it in any of your books, so long as you update your Section 15 on the OGL in your product to reflect its source. smile.gif
More later,
Flynn
Also, as for the BITS task system, I think we'd need permission from BITS before publishing it. As the author of the unofficial T20 extension, I've designated it as Open Game Content, so you can use it in any of your books, so long as you update your Section 15 on the OGL in your product to reflect its source. smile.gif
More later,
Flynn
kaladorn
February 10th, 2005, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Casey:
If you're referring to the BITS Task system (which is online at the BITS site) - it predated T20 but there's an unofficial extension to it that started on CotI and is on the Freelance Traveller site.No, don't think so. BITS task system might be in there. But the table I'm speaking of basically says:
Task Difficulty
CT MT TNE GT BITS T20
........
.......
........
For each, it lists corresponding difficulties and maps one system to the other. The only *missing* part, IMO, is mapping of dice DMs, because a +1 DM for a system where you throw 5 dice for a task for a target number of 20 and a system where you throw 2D for a task with a target number of 11 aren't equal in effect. That's the only thing I'd have liked to see added.
But the general idea was it allowed Doug to talk about one particular difficulty level, and knowing he meant T4, you could look at the chart and figure out what it was in your chosen ruleset (since I do not like T4 at all, at all!).
So, that's what I'm suggesting should be completed and made public domain - that half page explanation/chart. Thus a supplement could include that.
If you're referring to the BITS Task system (which is online at the BITS site) - it predated T20 but there's an unofficial extension to it that started on CotI and is on the Freelance Traveller site.No, don't think so. BITS task system might be in there. But the table I'm speaking of basically says:
Task Difficulty
CT MT TNE GT BITS T20
........
.......
........
For each, it lists corresponding difficulties and maps one system to the other. The only *missing* part, IMO, is mapping of dice DMs, because a +1 DM for a system where you throw 5 dice for a task for a target number of 20 and a system where you throw 2D for a task with a target number of 11 aren't equal in effect. That's the only thing I'd have liked to see added.
But the general idea was it allowed Doug to talk about one particular difficulty level, and knowing he meant T4, you could look at the chart and figure out what it was in your chosen ruleset (since I do not like T4 at all, at all!).
So, that's what I'm suggesting should be completed and made public domain - that half page explanation/chart. Thus a supplement could include that.
kaladorn
February 10th, 2005, 01:25 PM
Generic?
If you have access, Lee's Guide To Adventure was great as a basis for generic adventures. Each adventure listed a UWP profile (range of values which work for that adventure) and some suggestions of good places in the SM or SolRim to put things.
For my mind, what interests me:
Deckplans (Liners large and small, tramp freighters, large cargo haulers, fast couriers, small military and pirate ships, space stations and orbital habitats, etc)
Adventures (that can be plunked down in any sector)
Vehicles (with stats for several rules editions and if I'm lucky, pictures)
Equipment (ditto)
Robots (ditto)
A new world generation system (that produces rational UWPs)
Background bits like the Mercenary Code, etc. which are suitably generic enough to be plunked into the OTU, YTU, MTU, or even in another non-TU game.
Advice on running traveller games.
101 NPCs with some interesting (but non-OTU specific) backgrounds
101 Cargos
101 Passengers
Etc.
If you have access, Lee's Guide To Adventure was great as a basis for generic adventures. Each adventure listed a UWP profile (range of values which work for that adventure) and some suggestions of good places in the SM or SolRim to put things.
For my mind, what interests me:
Deckplans (Liners large and small, tramp freighters, large cargo haulers, fast couriers, small military and pirate ships, space stations and orbital habitats, etc)
Adventures (that can be plunked down in any sector)
Vehicles (with stats for several rules editions and if I'm lucky, pictures)
Equipment (ditto)
Robots (ditto)
A new world generation system (that produces rational UWPs)
Background bits like the Mercenary Code, etc. which are suitably generic enough to be plunked into the OTU, YTU, MTU, or even in another non-TU game.
Advice on running traveller games.
101 NPCs with some interesting (but non-OTU specific) backgrounds
101 Cargos
101 Passengers
Etc.
Chuck Anumia
February 10th, 2005, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Generic?
For my mind, what interests me:
Deckplans (Liners large and small, tramp freighters, large cargo haulers, fast couriers, small military and pirate ships, space stations and orbital habitats, etc)
Adventures (that can be plunked down in any sector)
Vehicles (with stats for several rules editions and if I'm lucky, pictures)
Equipment (ditto)
Robots (ditto)
A new world generation system (that produces rational UWPs)
Background bits like the Mercenary Code, etc. which are suitably generic enough to be plunked into the OTU, YTU, MTU, or even in another non-TU game.
Advice on running traveller games.
101 NPCs with some interesting (but non-OTU specific) backgrounds
101 Cargos
101 Passengers
Etc. I would also like to see some of the completed lists found in the thread about some top 20 lists.
Generic?
For my mind, what interests me:
Deckplans (Liners large and small, tramp freighters, large cargo haulers, fast couriers, small military and pirate ships, space stations and orbital habitats, etc)
Adventures (that can be plunked down in any sector)
Vehicles (with stats for several rules editions and if I'm lucky, pictures)
Equipment (ditto)
Robots (ditto)
A new world generation system (that produces rational UWPs)
Background bits like the Mercenary Code, etc. which are suitably generic enough to be plunked into the OTU, YTU, MTU, or even in another non-TU game.
Advice on running traveller games.
101 NPCs with some interesting (but non-OTU specific) backgrounds
101 Cargos
101 Passengers
Etc. I would also like to see some of the completed lists found in the thread about some top 20 lists.
Flynn
February 10th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Is there any interest in an ATU that is Traveller-rules-compatible? From the sounds of it, there's little or none. :(
-Flynn
-Flynn
jappel
February 10th, 2005, 03:04 PM
Coming in to this a bit late, but here's my CR 0.2:
- The basic idea is fantastic. It reminds me a lot of the way things seemed to work back in the early days.
- With all respect to Hans and others, there are many of us who are perfectly fine picturing Traveller without the OTU. To my mind, this seems to be a good mechanism for these alternative settings to see the light of day. Whether there's an actual market for true alternative Traveller settings is another question. (FWIW, I don't consider the Aldenata/Honorverse settings as "alternate Traveller settings" - they have completely different base assumptions than Traveller.)
- Others have already hit on the trickiest problem: decoupling the rules from the setting. Hunter stated he felt that TAS was embedded in the OTU, but TAS appeared in the very first edition of Book 1, before the OTU even existed, even in MWM's mind, if I recall things Loren and others have written correctly. But that's pretty easy compared to the items embedded in the character generation in, say, Scouts and Merchant Prince.
Perhaps what's needed as a precursor is something like the SRD: a stripped down version of the various core rule-sets, purged of the 3I setting. Perhaps the "cleaned up CT" idea Hunter tossed out last year?
- I'm leery of the "fan review panel". Volunteer efforts like that are always tricky to set up and difficult to sustain. There's also the very real danger of individuals allowing personal bias to cloud their judgements, and, frankly, some things may just turn out to be a matter of personal taste. I think the buying public would be quick to identify offending products, and TPTB can act on them then. It's either that or pre-screen them themselves, IMHO.
The devil is surely in the details. graemlins/file_23.gif The more I think about it, the more I believe that expurgated versions of the rules are needed as a precursor to this taking off.
-John
- The basic idea is fantastic. It reminds me a lot of the way things seemed to work back in the early days.
- With all respect to Hans and others, there are many of us who are perfectly fine picturing Traveller without the OTU. To my mind, this seems to be a good mechanism for these alternative settings to see the light of day. Whether there's an actual market for true alternative Traveller settings is another question. (FWIW, I don't consider the Aldenata/Honorverse settings as "alternate Traveller settings" - they have completely different base assumptions than Traveller.)
- Others have already hit on the trickiest problem: decoupling the rules from the setting. Hunter stated he felt that TAS was embedded in the OTU, but TAS appeared in the very first edition of Book 1, before the OTU even existed, even in MWM's mind, if I recall things Loren and others have written correctly. But that's pretty easy compared to the items embedded in the character generation in, say, Scouts and Merchant Prince.
Perhaps what's needed as a precursor is something like the SRD: a stripped down version of the various core rule-sets, purged of the 3I setting. Perhaps the "cleaned up CT" idea Hunter tossed out last year?
- I'm leery of the "fan review panel". Volunteer efforts like that are always tricky to set up and difficult to sustain. There's also the very real danger of individuals allowing personal bias to cloud their judgements, and, frankly, some things may just turn out to be a matter of personal taste. I think the buying public would be quick to identify offending products, and TPTB can act on them then. It's either that or pre-screen them themselves, IMHO.
The devil is surely in the details. graemlins/file_23.gif The more I think about it, the more I believe that expurgated versions of the rules are needed as a precursor to this taking off.
-John
Antony
February 10th, 2005, 03:15 PM
Well I have an ATU setting already mentioned. My UNH/Starkingdom of Swan campaign which uses the Solomani Rim placement of stars. This uses TNE rules and FF&S1. I suppose I could redo the stellar placements for some stars, but many in this Sector are supposed to represent "real" stars. How far can I move Alpha Centauri or Barnard's Star anyway. While as previously mentioned I would be interested in doing stuff when I asked people about doing a PDF based on the Starkingdom material from memory I got exactly zero response.
This implies to me that no people are not interested in ATU settings, but they do appear to be interested in expanding the OTU which they cannot do without a full licence.
This implies to me that no people are not interested in ATU settings, but they do appear to be interested in expanding the OTU which they cannot do without a full licence.
Chuck Anumia
February 10th, 2005, 03:24 PM
Here is another thought:
How about a retro to the Vilani Imperium?
Pre Jump 3 perhaps where the Vilani have the Jump advantage over rival civilizations and are trying to take over the stars by economic methods. graemlins/file_22.gif
Or
How abot the end of the long night campaign? graemlins/file_23.gif
How about a retro to the Vilani Imperium?
Pre Jump 3 perhaps where the Vilani have the Jump advantage over rival civilizations and are trying to take over the stars by economic methods. graemlins/file_22.gif
Or
How abot the end of the long night campaign? graemlins/file_23.gif
Flynn
February 10th, 2005, 03:36 PM
Sorry, cweiskircher, but we aren't allowed to touch the OTU with this form of limited license. So no "pre-VI" or "Long Night", at least, not one set in the OTU.
Antony, I'm all for you doing your ATU loud and proud. It's the reason why I asked about the stellar placement earlier.
It does look like an ATU may not be a consumer success, but if you're doing it for fun rather than profit, it's a chance to get your ideas out there. Personally, I'd say, "Go for it!"
Hope this helps,
Flynn
Antony, I'm all for you doing your ATU loud and proud. It's the reason why I asked about the stellar placement earlier.
It does look like an ATU may not be a consumer success, but if you're doing it for fun rather than profit, it's a chance to get your ideas out there. Personally, I'd say, "Go for it!"
Hope this helps,
Flynn
Chuck Anumia
February 10th, 2005, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by Flynn:
Sorry, cweiskircher, but we aren't allowed to touch the OTU with this form of limited license. So no "pre-VI" or "Long Night", at least, not one set in the OTU.
Flynn Thanks for the clarification Flynn. There is still a great big universe with thousands of oportunities for adventure out there to play with.
I will keep an open mind. :D
Sorry, cweiskircher, but we aren't allowed to touch the OTU with this form of limited license. So no "pre-VI" or "Long Night", at least, not one set in the OTU.
Flynn Thanks for the clarification Flynn. There is still a great big universe with thousands of oportunities for adventure out there to play with.
I will keep an open mind. :D
kaladorn
February 10th, 2005, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Antony:
This implies to me that no people are not interested in ATU settings, but they do appear to be interested in expanding the OTU which they cannot do without a full licence. Keep in mind, people interested in an ATU generally have one in mind. Those that aren't as interested have the OTU. So you'd always be dealing with a smaller market (a segment of a small market to begin with).
I mean, sure, if you trot out something neat and fancy and someone says good things about the finished product, there are folks who'd probably shell out a few bucks for it. But sight unseen and without a lot of work and detail in it (visibly in an external sense)?
The OTU has lots of traction because it has lots of history established and a vast body of work already in place. I'm sure it was greeted ho hum initially too - to a large extent, early traveller was devoid of an OTU, and so people made up their own. The OTU sort of crept in piecemeal. That tells me it probably didn't generate instant fascination. Anyone who picked up the game initially didn't have an OTU, and had probably already started with their own ATU.
Then, after a certain point, the OTU was omnipresent. So people starting the game then had an OTU, so most of them never looked further, and since the OTU was good to them (if they stayed in the game at all), it still is.
So yes, an ATU is interesting, in an academic sense. If fully realized, some people will probably take a look at it and throw in a buck or two. But by en large, you're pitching to a smaller crowd. And without product in hand, you're asking for interest.
I don't want that to sound harsh or condemning or anything. The truth is, I think alternate TUs are kind of interesting. But at this juncture, I have several running games inside the OTU and thus I'm less interested myself, except in the theoretical sense. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try to pursue it, but I'd suggest that this is clearly a case where you are prospecting - you are hoping that when you produce something from it, people will begin to develop an interest.
For some reason, the Traveller speculative trade model comes to mind.
Good luck though!
This implies to me that no people are not interested in ATU settings, but they do appear to be interested in expanding the OTU which they cannot do without a full licence. Keep in mind, people interested in an ATU generally have one in mind. Those that aren't as interested have the OTU. So you'd always be dealing with a smaller market (a segment of a small market to begin with).
I mean, sure, if you trot out something neat and fancy and someone says good things about the finished product, there are folks who'd probably shell out a few bucks for it. But sight unseen and without a lot of work and detail in it (visibly in an external sense)?
The OTU has lots of traction because it has lots of history established and a vast body of work already in place. I'm sure it was greeted ho hum initially too - to a large extent, early traveller was devoid of an OTU, and so people made up their own. The OTU sort of crept in piecemeal. That tells me it probably didn't generate instant fascination. Anyone who picked up the game initially didn't have an OTU, and had probably already started with their own ATU.
Then, after a certain point, the OTU was omnipresent. So people starting the game then had an OTU, so most of them never looked further, and since the OTU was good to them (if they stayed in the game at all), it still is.
So yes, an ATU is interesting, in an academic sense. If fully realized, some people will probably take a look at it and throw in a buck or two. But by en large, you're pitching to a smaller crowd. And without product in hand, you're asking for interest.
I don't want that to sound harsh or condemning or anything. The truth is, I think alternate TUs are kind of interesting. But at this juncture, I have several running games inside the OTU and thus I'm less interested myself, except in the theoretical sense. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try to pursue it, but I'd suggest that this is clearly a case where you are prospecting - you are hoping that when you produce something from it, people will begin to develop an interest.
For some reason, the Traveller speculative trade model comes to mind.
Good luck though!
Antony
February 11th, 2005, 01:11 AM
Well I am doing a lot of stuff on the UNH/Starkingdom of Swan setting at the moment. Moving the Starkingdoms setup a bit (seems a bit close to the Honorverse at the moment). Work on a different background for the Daanan etc.
Perhaps a sector book first. But then do I need to move the stars so the dot map isn't that of the Solomani Rim, enthusiastic people want to know.
Perhaps a sector book first. But then do I need to move the stars so the dot map isn't that of the Solomani Rim, enthusiastic people want to know.
Jeff M. Hopper
February 11th, 2005, 03:02 AM
Well, I think that there is a lot of interest for ATU out there. Traveller was initially designed as a generic science fiction rules set for RPGs. The OTU didn't start until a few years after the original LBBs came out. Now, the OTU has got almost three decades worth of time and material to support it - so its going to be the Big Man On Campus, comparitively. Yet, by allowing ATU suppliments to be created and placed up for sale you are doing two things - you are cultivating a new generation of writers who may be tapped for work, and you are demonstrating what the rules mechanic can do when it is unfettered by canon. Some of these products will flourish and some will fail, based on their commercial success. Who knows, if this limited license idea is approved then we may see the beginnings of the next FASA through it.
I'd also like to point out that it is possible to create ATU material that is stand-alone, yet completely compatible with the OTU.
I'd also like to point out that it is possible to create ATU material that is stand-alone, yet completely compatible with the OTU.
Chuck Anumia
February 11th, 2005, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
I'd also like to point out that it is possible to create ATU material that is stand-alone, yet completely compatible with the OTU. I agree. I can see through the adventures and materials I have created that are generic enough to be used anywhere in a science fiction setting that an ATU is not only possible but perhaps preferable.
Sure, having detailed history and a concise explanation of why things are as they are is good background. But is it necessary for us to have just one "History of the Universe" to set up our games in? OTU is mainly built on what history says (UWP's, Governments, etc.) graemlins/omega.gif
Could we who will play the game as we make it up not also create our own history or play in a universe with a different history created for us while keeping the terms we are used to?
This could give us flexability or it could confuse many. :confused: graemlins/toast.gif
I'd also like to point out that it is possible to create ATU material that is stand-alone, yet completely compatible with the OTU. I agree. I can see through the adventures and materials I have created that are generic enough to be used anywhere in a science fiction setting that an ATU is not only possible but perhaps preferable.
Sure, having detailed history and a concise explanation of why things are as they are is good background. But is it necessary for us to have just one "History of the Universe" to set up our games in? OTU is mainly built on what history says (UWP's, Governments, etc.) graemlins/omega.gif
Could we who will play the game as we make it up not also create our own history or play in a universe with a different history created for us while keeping the terms we are used to?
This could give us flexability or it could confuse many. :confused: graemlins/toast.gif
Flynn
February 11th, 2005, 12:24 PM
As I think more on the subject, the following occurred to me:
Considering that, in T20, the alien racial data for character creation is OGC, does that mean that the races themselves (but not their history) are open for use and reference in these limited license products?
Just asking,
Flynn
Considering that, in T20, the alien racial data for character creation is OGC, does that mean that the races themselves (but not their history) are open for use and reference in these limited license products?
Just asking,
Flynn
Fritz_Brown
February 11th, 2005, 12:44 PM
Wow, Hunter asks a question and 6 days later, there are 5 pages of interaction on that question. I think that means there is a lot of interest, but some definite work to be done.
kaladorn
February 11th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Flynn brings up a good question:
Are races, considering they have a mechanical component in character generation, description, considered to be generic or OTU canon? I mean, socially, I could conceive of Aslan in non-OTU settings, but they are definitely in the OTU. So where do they fit? (Generalizing, this applies to all races)
So it might be, at a guess, acceptable to have an Aslan appear in a module as an NPC, but not explain anything about the culture of the Aslan particularly. You could describe how this *particular* Aslan behaves, but perhaps not things like how all Aslan behave generally?
Or are the races out too? Or are the generic and entirely fair game?
And if I can't use Aslan, is there anything that prohibits me from having a large male leonine alien with somewhat samurai like tendencies? It seems generic enough that it wouldn't infringe anything, but it would be instantly recognizable to any Traveller player as what it really was an hommage to.
I guess the earlier posters had the right of it:
There is a lot of entanglement between setting and rules and that would need to be clearly split out and spelled out.
On the ATU front, I wasn't suggesting an ATU was a bad thing, merely trying to point out reasons why the first mention of an ATU, nor the attempts to solicit interest in the ATU in question, might have resulted in not much response. I think my premises about the smaller market for ATUs and the weight of OTU accumulated body-of-work vs. an as yet-not-presented ATU have a lot to do with that reality. I don't deny an ATU might be fine, but I think there are logical reasons it might not garner interest initially from a large body of people.
Are races, considering they have a mechanical component in character generation, description, considered to be generic or OTU canon? I mean, socially, I could conceive of Aslan in non-OTU settings, but they are definitely in the OTU. So where do they fit? (Generalizing, this applies to all races)
So it might be, at a guess, acceptable to have an Aslan appear in a module as an NPC, but not explain anything about the culture of the Aslan particularly. You could describe how this *particular* Aslan behaves, but perhaps not things like how all Aslan behave generally?
Or are the races out too? Or are the generic and entirely fair game?
And if I can't use Aslan, is there anything that prohibits me from having a large male leonine alien with somewhat samurai like tendencies? It seems generic enough that it wouldn't infringe anything, but it would be instantly recognizable to any Traveller player as what it really was an hommage to.
I guess the earlier posters had the right of it:
There is a lot of entanglement between setting and rules and that would need to be clearly split out and spelled out.
On the ATU front, I wasn't suggesting an ATU was a bad thing, merely trying to point out reasons why the first mention of an ATU, nor the attempts to solicit interest in the ATU in question, might have resulted in not much response. I think my premises about the smaller market for ATUs and the weight of OTU accumulated body-of-work vs. an as yet-not-presented ATU have a lot to do with that reality. I don't deny an ATU might be fine, but I think there are logical reasons it might not garner interest initially from a large body of people.
clementk
February 11th, 2005, 04:55 PM
I'm pretty sure that race names are not considered open content in T20 and are also considered IP etc. in the back of the THB. So by extension my thinking is that you could use the stats but not the names. Call Aslan cat-people or something. For that matter you can already do that in a d20 / OGL product totally unrelated to Traveller.
As for ATUs, well that goes back to the whole just what is traveller debate. Me I'd like to see a ATU fleshed out that isn't the OTU nor bound by the rules that make OTU-esque 'verses the norm for CT/MT/T4/and to some extent T20. Products like that I would definitely be interested in and it's something that, as I said in a prior post, would likely be enough work that some payment would really help spur development. Sure you're not going to make much money likely, but it's better than getting nothing.
Casey (is no lawyer though and is not looking at the books)
As for ATUs, well that goes back to the whole just what is traveller debate. Me I'd like to see a ATU fleshed out that isn't the OTU nor bound by the rules that make OTU-esque 'verses the norm for CT/MT/T4/and to some extent T20. Products like that I would definitely be interested in and it's something that, as I said in a prior post, would likely be enough work that some payment would really help spur development. Sure you're not going to make much money likely, but it's better than getting nothing.
Casey (is no lawyer though and is not looking at the books)
Antony
February 12th, 2005, 01:04 AM
Well all this is true, but it has not answered whether we can use the dot maps for star locations, like the Solomani Rim which I used, or whether I need to redo stellar placement, which I can certainly do. I have a different vesrion of a sector map for this universe (though still 2D for ease of play). But it would certainly make my task easier if I can retain the Solomani Rim stellar locations.
Jeff M. Hopper
February 12th, 2005, 11:21 AM
I've gotta ask this, because it could become very relevant. Is 2320AD considered an Alternate Traveller Universe or is it an Official Traveller Universe, expect specific for 2320AD?
Jame
February 12th, 2005, 04:55 PM
Come to think of it, I have another setting, with polities and the planets for the one the PCs can use plus a (very) short history. Hunter, if you'd like to see it give me an email/PM (if anyone else wants to see it fine, but I'm trying to sell it and this might cause problems).
kaladorn
February 13th, 2005, 02:49 AM
Do you have a 2300 link?
And do you have a link to a part of your Dad's site that does not require the plugins I don't have? smile.gif
And do you have a link to a part of your Dad's site that does not require the plugins I don't have? smile.gif
Flynn
February 14th, 2005, 09:49 AM
I'm hopeful that Hunter will post soon on the current standings regarding these efforts. I have a few things on the back burner that I'd like to develop, including providing a new setting around which others can create use to create adventures and run campaigns.
The setting would focus on elements presented by the more vocal proponents of reshaping the OTU that have been made over the last five years or so: smaller polities, higher tech core worlds with lower tech frontiers, worlds with somewhat more reasonable UWPs, etc. I've learned a lot from the 1248 UWP experience, and am practicing it with the Empty Quarter sector. I'd like to see how well it would work on a larger project.
By the same token, I'd hate to put in all the work, and then find out that there's no way I could get it out into the open, aside from just posting it somewhere on the web. Especially when I could be doing work that would be better received elsewhere.
Looking forward to further comments from Hunter,
Flynn
The setting would focus on elements presented by the more vocal proponents of reshaping the OTU that have been made over the last five years or so: smaller polities, higher tech core worlds with lower tech frontiers, worlds with somewhat more reasonable UWPs, etc. I've learned a lot from the 1248 UWP experience, and am practicing it with the Empty Quarter sector. I'd like to see how well it would work on a larger project.
By the same token, I'd hate to put in all the work, and then find out that there's no way I could get it out into the open, aside from just posting it somewhere on the web. Especially when I could be doing work that would be better received elsewhere.
Looking forward to further comments from Hunter,
Flynn
Chuck Anumia
February 14th, 2005, 10:48 AM
Another thought occured to me.
Is Jump drive a part of OTU?
Would we have to give it a generic name or do game mechanics have to change the way we travel across the stars?
Is Jump drive a part of OTU?
Would we have to give it a generic name or do game mechanics have to change the way we travel across the stars?
Flynn
February 14th, 2005, 11:19 AM
To my understanding, Jump drive is a part of the game mechanics of Traveller, and can be used for mechanical compatibility. It is not something that is restricted to the OTU. However, I'm not an official on these things, and would wait to see what Hunter posts in regards to this question and others.
-Flynn
-Flynn
kaladorn
February 14th, 2005, 11:53 AM
I'm guessing since Jump Drive is a ship component and since how far you can move on a map is defined by that, it is a 'mechanical' item present in the rules.
rancke
February 14th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by jappel:
With all respect to Hans and others, there are many of us who are perfectly fine picturing Traveller without the OTU.Oh, I know. In fact, I know I am in the minority (because of a poll some years ago about what people considered the essential elements in Traveller).
To be brutally frank, I don't see the point of non-OTU Traveller. I'm sorry to confess that I don't really think the Traveller rules (any of the sets) are all that good. If you want to write a generic adventure, why not keep the mechanics completely out of it?
But if you do see the point, then by all means go for it.
Hans
With all respect to Hans and others, there are many of us who are perfectly fine picturing Traveller without the OTU.Oh, I know. In fact, I know I am in the minority (because of a poll some years ago about what people considered the essential elements in Traveller).
To be brutally frank, I don't see the point of non-OTU Traveller. I'm sorry to confess that I don't really think the Traveller rules (any of the sets) are all that good. If you want to write a generic adventure, why not keep the mechanics completely out of it?
But if you do see the point, then by all means go for it.
Hans
Flynn
February 14th, 2005, 02:28 PM
By means of summary so far...
Ten Questions For Hunter Gordon... Okay, So It's More Than Ten Questions
1. Do you have an idea of what the license fee schedule looks like, at this time? (Ron Vutpakdi)
2. Can you use material that purposefully diverges from the OTU at some point? (Sir Dameon Toth)
3. Will there be a standard format required for limited license products? If so, what are the details of that format? (Randy Tyler)
4. Can someone produce a concise, non-background version of a particular Traveller rules set under this license? If not, can one be produced by either Hunter or Marc to use as a set of guidelines, similar to the SRD, of what's considered non-OTU and game-mechanics related? (Casey)
5. What are your thoughts on a review panel, and how do you feel such would impact delivery schedules, etc.? (Various)
6. Will the buyers of this limited license be listed on the catalog page here like Ronin Arts and Loren K Wiseman are (once products are made available)? (Randy Tyler)
7. Will limited license holders have an independent way to upload their products to the catalog instead of relying on you to upload it for them? (Randy Tyler)
8. Is there any reason we couldn't have a license that lets us involve the OTU in approximately as much detail as the current Fair Use policy permits? (Kaladorn)
9. Are standard deck plan icons from the various deck plan supplements fair game? (Kaladorn)
10. Would an LBB-like feel (say convincing Berka to let me use the LBB book cover generator to produce a nice cover) be an infringement of anyone's designs/rights? (Kaladorn)
11. Supplements which offer alternate or extended rules - would that be acceptable? (Kaladorn)
12. Conjecturally, the author still holds copyright. Does this imply they can withdraw their permission to produce and distribute an item if they wish? (Kaladorn)
13. Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). He didn't explain their systems, he didn't do much more than say 'they exist' and establish a mapping between task difficulty levels. This chart allowed him to then talk in terms of difficulty levels for all of his rules - and each GM could apply his own appropriate conversion. Would something like this be acceptable? I mean, do you need SJG's permission to publish a small chart that equates a Difficult Task to a particular difficulty under GT? If so, perhaps QLI or Marc should work with the various licensees and make this one half page chart 'public domain' and thereby usable as a reference by all Traveller authors. I mean, what it does do is really allow for generic game rules and for portability to other systems... and that should be good for *all* Traveller licensees. (Kaladorn)
14. What about material that I created and have placed on my website. Could this be repackaged or is it a first appearance here deal? (Antony)
15. What if I have used the dot maps for stellar positions, but all the UWP data is completely new? (This also assumes that all names are changed to protect the innocent, etc.) (Flynn)
16. Considering that, in T20, the alien racial data for character creation is OGC, does that mean that the races themselves (but not their history) are open for use and reference in these limited license products? (Flynn)
17. Is 2320AD considered an Alternate Traveller Universe or is it an Official Traveller Universe, expect specific for 2320AD? (Jeff M. Hopper)
18. Is Jump drive a part of OTU? (cweiskircher)
Hope this helps,
Flynn
Ten Questions For Hunter Gordon... Okay, So It's More Than Ten Questions
1. Do you have an idea of what the license fee schedule looks like, at this time? (Ron Vutpakdi)
2. Can you use material that purposefully diverges from the OTU at some point? (Sir Dameon Toth)
3. Will there be a standard format required for limited license products? If so, what are the details of that format? (Randy Tyler)
4. Can someone produce a concise, non-background version of a particular Traveller rules set under this license? If not, can one be produced by either Hunter or Marc to use as a set of guidelines, similar to the SRD, of what's considered non-OTU and game-mechanics related? (Casey)
5. What are your thoughts on a review panel, and how do you feel such would impact delivery schedules, etc.? (Various)
6. Will the buyers of this limited license be listed on the catalog page here like Ronin Arts and Loren K Wiseman are (once products are made available)? (Randy Tyler)
7. Will limited license holders have an independent way to upload their products to the catalog instead of relying on you to upload it for them? (Randy Tyler)
8. Is there any reason we couldn't have a license that lets us involve the OTU in approximately as much detail as the current Fair Use policy permits? (Kaladorn)
9. Are standard deck plan icons from the various deck plan supplements fair game? (Kaladorn)
10. Would an LBB-like feel (say convincing Berka to let me use the LBB book cover generator to produce a nice cover) be an infringement of anyone's designs/rights? (Kaladorn)
11. Supplements which offer alternate or extended rules - would that be acceptable? (Kaladorn)
12. Conjecturally, the author still holds copyright. Does this imply they can withdraw their permission to produce and distribute an item if they wish? (Kaladorn)
13. Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). He didn't explain their systems, he didn't do much more than say 'they exist' and establish a mapping between task difficulty levels. This chart allowed him to then talk in terms of difficulty levels for all of his rules - and each GM could apply his own appropriate conversion. Would something like this be acceptable? I mean, do you need SJG's permission to publish a small chart that equates a Difficult Task to a particular difficulty under GT? If so, perhaps QLI or Marc should work with the various licensees and make this one half page chart 'public domain' and thereby usable as a reference by all Traveller authors. I mean, what it does do is really allow for generic game rules and for portability to other systems... and that should be good for *all* Traveller licensees. (Kaladorn)
14. What about material that I created and have placed on my website. Could this be repackaged or is it a first appearance here deal? (Antony)
15. What if I have used the dot maps for stellar positions, but all the UWP data is completely new? (This also assumes that all names are changed to protect the innocent, etc.) (Flynn)
16. Considering that, in T20, the alien racial data for character creation is OGC, does that mean that the races themselves (but not their history) are open for use and reference in these limited license products? (Flynn)
17. Is 2320AD considered an Alternate Traveller Universe or is it an Official Traveller Universe, expect specific for 2320AD? (Jeff M. Hopper)
18. Is Jump drive a part of OTU? (cweiskircher)
Hope this helps,
Flynn
Flynn
February 20th, 2005, 07:44 AM
*bump*
Hunter, do you think you might be able to answer some of the 18 questions I've gathered for you, above? (Guess this makes the 19th question for Hunter, huh? ;) )
Thanks in advance,
Flynn
Hunter, do you think you might be able to answer some of the 18 questions I've gathered for you, above? (Guess this makes the 19th question for Hunter, huh? ;) )
Thanks in advance,
Flynn
Antony
February 25th, 2005, 02:20 AM
We get the tantalising idea of being able to produce licenced stuff then everything goes quiet.
Perhaps too quiet?
Perhaps too quiet?
Flynn
February 25th, 2005, 04:45 AM
I've sent Hunter a PM about the topic, as I'm sure others have, and I'm hoping to hear back soon. I'm sure things don't necessarily move quickly when discussing the legal ramifications of something like this, but I'm hopeful that we'll be kept apprise of any developments.
Perhaps once the matter is further developed, then the eighteen questions above might be easier to answer.
Looking forward to some news,
Flynn
Perhaps once the matter is further developed, then the eighteen questions above might be easier to answer.
Looking forward to some news,
Flynn
Flynn
March 2nd, 2005, 11:42 AM
Hunter,
I know you've been working hard on the new deckplan supplements, but I was wondering if you might be able to let us know how the limited license concept is coming along?
Thanks in advance,
Flynn
I know you've been working hard on the new deckplan supplements, but I was wondering if you might be able to let us know how the limited license concept is coming along?
Thanks in advance,
Flynn
Flynn
March 11th, 2005, 10:17 AM
Repeating these questions as a reminder...
Eighteen Questions For Hunter Gordon
1. Do you have an idea of what the license fee schedule looks like, at this time? (Ron Vutpakdi)
2. Can you use material that purposefully diverges from the OTU at some point? (Sir Dameon Toth)
3. Will there be a standard format required for limited license products? If so, what are the details of that format? (Randy Tyler)
4. Can someone produce a concise, non-background version of a particular Traveller rules set under this license? If not, can one be produced by either Hunter or Marc to use as a set of guidelines, similar to the SRD, of what's considered non-OTU and game-mechanics related? (Casey)
5. What are your thoughts on a review panel, and how do you feel such would impact delivery schedules, etc.? (Various)
6. Will the buyers of this limited license be listed on the catalog page here like Ronin Arts and Loren K Wiseman are (once products are made available)? (Randy Tyler)
7. Will limited license holders have an independent way to upload their products to the catalog instead of relying on you to upload it for them? (Randy Tyler)
8. Is there any reason we couldn't have a license that lets us involve the OTU in approximately as much detail as the current Fair Use policy permits? (Kaladorn)
9. Are standard deck plan icons from the various deck plan supplements fair game? (Kaladorn)
10. Would an LBB-like feel (say convincing Berka to let me use the LBB book cover generator to produce a nice cover) be an infringement of anyone's designs/rights? (Kaladorn)
11. Supplements which offer alternate or extended rules - would that be acceptable? (Kaladorn)
12. Conjecturally, the author still holds copyright. Does this imply they can withdraw their permission to produce and distribute an item if they wish? (Kaladorn)
13. Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). He didn't explain their systems, he didn't do much more than say 'they exist' and establish a mapping between task difficulty levels. This chart allowed him to then talk in terms of difficulty levels for all of his rules - and each GM could apply his own appropriate conversion. Would something like this be acceptable? I mean, do you need SJG's permission to publish a small chart that equates a Difficult Task to a particular difficulty under GT? If so, perhaps QLI or Marc should work with the various licensees and make this one half page chart 'public domain' and thereby usable as a reference by all Traveller authors. I mean, what it does do is really allow for generic game rules and for portability to other systems... and that should be good for *all* Traveller licensees. (Kaladorn)
14. What about material that I created and have placed on my website. Could this be repackaged or is it a first appearance here deal? (Antony)
15. What if I have used the dot maps for stellar positions, but all the UWP data is completely new? (This also assumes that all names are changed to protect the innocent, etc.) (Flynn)
16. Considering that, in T20, the alien racial data for character creation is OGC, does that mean that the races themselves (but not their history) are open for use and reference in these limited license products? (Flynn)
17. Is 2320AD considered an Alternate Traveller Universe or is it an Official Traveller Universe, expect specific for 2320AD? (Jeff M. Hopper)
18. Is Jump drive a part of OTU? (cweiskircher)
With Regards,
Flynn
Eighteen Questions For Hunter Gordon
1. Do you have an idea of what the license fee schedule looks like, at this time? (Ron Vutpakdi)
2. Can you use material that purposefully diverges from the OTU at some point? (Sir Dameon Toth)
3. Will there be a standard format required for limited license products? If so, what are the details of that format? (Randy Tyler)
4. Can someone produce a concise, non-background version of a particular Traveller rules set under this license? If not, can one be produced by either Hunter or Marc to use as a set of guidelines, similar to the SRD, of what's considered non-OTU and game-mechanics related? (Casey)
5. What are your thoughts on a review panel, and how do you feel such would impact delivery schedules, etc.? (Various)
6. Will the buyers of this limited license be listed on the catalog page here like Ronin Arts and Loren K Wiseman are (once products are made available)? (Randy Tyler)
7. Will limited license holders have an independent way to upload their products to the catalog instead of relying on you to upload it for them? (Randy Tyler)
8. Is there any reason we couldn't have a license that lets us involve the OTU in approximately as much detail as the current Fair Use policy permits? (Kaladorn)
9. Are standard deck plan icons from the various deck plan supplements fair game? (Kaladorn)
10. Would an LBB-like feel (say convincing Berka to let me use the LBB book cover generator to produce a nice cover) be an infringement of anyone's designs/rights? (Kaladorn)
11. Supplements which offer alternate or extended rules - would that be acceptable? (Kaladorn)
12. Conjecturally, the author still holds copyright. Does this imply they can withdraw their permission to produce and distribute an item if they wish? (Kaladorn)
13. Doug Berry, in ACQ, published a half page table (half of an LBB page) that associated various task difficulties in various systems (T4, TNE, MT, CT, GT - I don't think T20 was in there but I forget). He didn't explain their systems, he didn't do much more than say 'they exist' and establish a mapping between task difficulty levels. This chart allowed him to then talk in terms of difficulty levels for all of his rules - and each GM could apply his own appropriate conversion. Would something like this be acceptable? I mean, do you need SJG's permission to publish a small chart that equates a Difficult Task to a particular difficulty under GT? If so, perhaps QLI or Marc should work with the various licensees and make this one half page chart 'public domain' and thereby usable as a reference by all Traveller authors. I mean, what it does do is really allow for generic game rules and for portability to other systems... and that should be good for *all* Traveller licensees. (Kaladorn)
14. What about material that I created and have placed on my website. Could this be repackaged or is it a first appearance here deal? (Antony)
15. What if I have used the dot maps for stellar positions, but all the UWP data is completely new? (This also assumes that all names are changed to protect the innocent, etc.) (Flynn)
16. Considering that, in T20, the alien racial data for character creation is OGC, does that mean that the races themselves (but not their history) are open for use and reference in these limited license products? (Flynn)
17. Is 2320AD considered an Alternate Traveller Universe or is it an Official Traveller Universe, expect specific for 2320AD? (Jeff M. Hopper)
18. Is Jump drive a part of OTU? (cweiskircher)
With Regards,
Flynn
hunter
March 19th, 2005, 02:22 AM
I have complied a list of these questions and given my answers to them. Just sent it to Marc for his approval and/or comments on them. When I have them back I'll post them here.
Hunter
Hunter
Flynn
March 22nd, 2005, 05:44 PM
Excellent! Thank you, Hunter! I'm definitely looking forward to the results of this thought exercise.
With Anticipation,
Flynn
With Anticipation,
Flynn
Jame
May 4th, 2005, 07:40 AM
Hey Hunter, a while ago I PMed you and haven't gotten a reply - would you care to at least tell me what you think of it? :confused:
Malenfant
May 11th, 2005, 03:20 AM
Originally posted by hunter:
I have complied a list of these questions and given my answers to them. Just sent it to Marc for his approval and/or comments on them. When I have them back I'll post them here.So, two months later, is there a response???
I have complied a list of these questions and given my answers to them. Just sent it to Marc for his approval and/or comments on them. When I have them back I'll post them here.So, two months later, is there a response???
Flynn
June 6th, 2005, 09:33 AM
Good morning, Hunter,
Have you heard back from Marc Miller on the concept of the limited license as yet? I know you sent him the questions back on March 19th of this year, and was curious as to where things stand right now. smile.gif
I appreciate any feedback you might be able to give us. In the meantime, good luck, and thanks for all of your hard work.
With Warm Regards,
Jason "Flynn" Kemp
Have you heard back from Marc Miller on the concept of the limited license as yet? I know you sent him the questions back on March 19th of this year, and was curious as to where things stand right now. smile.gif
I appreciate any feedback you might be able to give us. In the meantime, good luck, and thanks for all of your hard work.
With Warm Regards,
Jason "Flynn" Kemp
Merxiless
December 2nd, 2005, 09:14 PM
Most Definitely Interested in something like this Limited License concept.
Seems to me, even though the OTU is "tied" to the rules, back in the day, the homebrew campaigns were generated without any of that.
So, my spin on it is, if I comrehend, these would be rules, supplements, etc as alternate settings, keeping the "Physics" and "Sciences" of Traveller, but with different histories, governments, etc. Just laid out in the same 8 X 10 subsector format, a la Spinward Marches, or some of the old FASA Sectors, yes?
If that is what you are seeking, I am all for it, both as a player / Ref, and potential contributor of material. I really miss the old school LBB / wild frontier of the "For Use With" licensees days. Not that this will be that. But, I REALLY miss those days.
No offense to d20, but level-based games and the whole skills / feats stacking just doesn't feel "Right" to me, as a player, or referee. CT was my first ever RPG back in 1977, and decades later, it's still my favorite (In it's newest guise as T4).
If others out there have ATU material, I'd love to see it, even if it is a homebrew subsector, or two, with some decent writeups, centered around a common theme, that I could either get ideas from, or use as a launching point for new campaigns.
If it is material that rivals the Environment Series, or new Rules (Such as Robots, Merchant Prince, or High Guard, say, what those did for CT, back in the day) in Style and content, I'd pay cash money, big time, to get access to other Referee's ideas on those kinds of submissions / articles / what have you.
Very Exciting to see this. I hope it comes to fruition.
Seems to me, even though the OTU is "tied" to the rules, back in the day, the homebrew campaigns were generated without any of that.
So, my spin on it is, if I comrehend, these would be rules, supplements, etc as alternate settings, keeping the "Physics" and "Sciences" of Traveller, but with different histories, governments, etc. Just laid out in the same 8 X 10 subsector format, a la Spinward Marches, or some of the old FASA Sectors, yes?
If that is what you are seeking, I am all for it, both as a player / Ref, and potential contributor of material. I really miss the old school LBB / wild frontier of the "For Use With" licensees days. Not that this will be that. But, I REALLY miss those days.
No offense to d20, but level-based games and the whole skills / feats stacking just doesn't feel "Right" to me, as a player, or referee. CT was my first ever RPG back in 1977, and decades later, it's still my favorite (In it's newest guise as T4).
If others out there have ATU material, I'd love to see it, even if it is a homebrew subsector, or two, with some decent writeups, centered around a common theme, that I could either get ideas from, or use as a launching point for new campaigns.
If it is material that rivals the Environment Series, or new Rules (Such as Robots, Merchant Prince, or High Guard, say, what those did for CT, back in the day) in Style and content, I'd pay cash money, big time, to get access to other Referee's ideas on those kinds of submissions / articles / what have you.
Very Exciting to see this. I hope it comes to fruition.
Fritz_Brown
December 3rd, 2005, 07:24 PM
Welcome Merxiless! (Jumping right in, I see. ;) ) This idea may be on the back burner a bit longer - go check out the QLI frontpage for Hunter's note on his current difficulties. :(
Merxiless
December 4th, 2005, 01:59 AM
Right, I just wanted to toss in my .02 creds, is all.
Darkhstarr
January 15th, 2006, 10:50 PM
It sounds great. The Lord knows with the medical bills the extra money would be great. Personally, for me, Traveller would no longer be a hobby & that would kill the enjoyment. Digging out my Traveller stuff, running games at cons & creating my website has kept me sane-and I would like to stay that way. However, I wish anyone who like to create supplements to Traveller all the best in the world.
ravells
January 21st, 2006, 07:56 PM
Hunter said: 'Would anyone be interested in a 'limited' license to produce and sell their own Traveller compatible products?'
No, I'd like people post them for free. As I see it, most people who play Traveller (I'd love to see an age demographic)are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs and see this as a hobby rather than a money making venture.
There is something 'right' about the traveller culture which demands that that we work together to keep it going.
At this stage of the game, I think it's more about survival than pots of money.
ravs
No, I'd like people post them for free. As I see it, most people who play Traveller (I'd love to see an age demographic)are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs and see this as a hobby rather than a money making venture.
There is something 'right' about the traveller culture which demands that that we work together to keep it going.
At this stage of the game, I think it's more about survival than pots of money.
ravs
far-trader
January 21st, 2006, 08:06 PM
A few points ravs...
As you note most people who play Traveller are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs.
This means they are sacrificing time and money out of interest to create products to further the game. And the people using these products should and are able to make some small token of renumeration for this effort.
No one is going to be making pots of money on this, maybe it'll pay for the chips and pop for ONE ftf game with enough sales.
The fact that Marc and/or QLI get something from it too also only seems a fair exchange for helping to get the material out there in a professional format.
THAT is how I see the Traveller community working together to keep the game alive. Those who can contribute product do so and get a small token for it, and those who can't contribute product support the game by paying that small token.
The game won't survive, and certainly will never thrive, if we expect it all to be free.
As you note most people who play Traveller are of a standard of intelligence and age in which they have reasonably well paying jobs.
This means they are sacrificing time and money out of interest to create products to further the game. And the people using these products should and are able to make some small token of renumeration for this effort.
No one is going to be making pots of money on this, maybe it'll pay for the chips and pop for ONE ftf game with enough sales.
The fact that Marc and/or QLI get something from it too also only seems a fair exchange for helping to get the material out there in a professional format.
THAT is how I see the Traveller community working together to keep the game alive. Those who can contribute product do so and get a small token for it, and those who can't contribute product support the game by paying that small token.
The game won't survive, and certainly will never thrive, if we expect it all to be free.
Golan2072
January 22nd, 2006, 04:04 AM
I'll publish my material online in order to finance the purchase of more Traveller material (especially T20). Unlike some of the better-off players noted by ravs and far-trader, I'm a cash-deprived student in a country (Israel) where the minimum wage I'll get after completing my (nearly worthless) degree is the equivalent (in local currency) of approximatelt 4 US$ an hour (circa 750 US$ equivalent per month) and the avarage wage is around the equivalent of 1,500 US$ per month. Alot of people (nearly half of the population) get the minimum wage or not much abouve it; the avarage is so high because the upper crust earn extremely high wages.
So, after paying for rent (could be 1,000 US$ per month - that's two thirds of the avarage wage, and for a sucky apartment! If you earn a minimum wage, you'll have to live with partners and/or a working spouse), foiod, electricity, municipal taxes etc, if I want RPG books I could get them in three ways:
1) The generousity (sp?) of others;
2) Second- or Third-hand from people who stop playing a particular game and sell their old books for cheap;
3) And, possibly, publishing my own material online.
What I'm thinking about is publishing the deckplans of a large ship (mining rig? space station? destroyer?) along with its HG stats, crew stats and a few related adventure seeds; the revenue will hopefully buy me T20 with it's supplements.
And the fact that we have both free AND non-free material is the reason our game survives; most of our fan-base works for free (see this forums and Stellar Reaches) but the professional (or, atleast, good hard-copy) products are also required. But money alone is not what holds Traveller togather; money is only a tool. T$R opressed the fan base and built themselves on money and greed alone; do you see T$R around?
EDIT: I don't think I'll publish my Solar Triumvirate setting online, as it has benefited so much from the help and advice of kind and clever people on these forums; I'm opposed to profiting from the work of others (as I feel the Solar Triumvirate was, in many ways, a community effort). Distributing the profit between all involved in relation to their amount of involvement would be difficult. Only with their agreement and encouragement I'll publish this ATU. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to provide you all with "limited license", pay-for-download quality deckplans and, later on, adventures.
By the way, are alternate rules (such as my consolidated CT chargen system) OK for a limited license?
Or "ship's-locker"-style equipment descriptions taking several pages?
So, after paying for rent (could be 1,000 US$ per month - that's two thirds of the avarage wage, and for a sucky apartment! If you earn a minimum wage, you'll have to live with partners and/or a working spouse), foiod, electricity, municipal taxes etc, if I want RPG books I could get them in three ways:
1) The generousity (sp?) of others;
2) Second- or Third-hand from people who stop playing a particular game and sell their old books for cheap;
3) And, possibly, publishing my own material online.
What I'm thinking about is publishing the deckplans of a large ship (mining rig? space station? destroyer?) along with its HG stats, crew stats and a few related adventure seeds; the revenue will hopefully buy me T20 with it's supplements.
And the fact that we have both free AND non-free material is the reason our game survives; most of our fan-base works for free (see this forums and Stellar Reaches) but the professional (or, atleast, good hard-copy) products are also required. But money alone is not what holds Traveller togather; money is only a tool. T$R opressed the fan base and built themselves on money and greed alone; do you see T$R around?
EDIT: I don't think I'll publish my Solar Triumvirate setting online, as it has benefited so much from the help and advice of kind and clever people on these forums; I'm opposed to profiting from the work of others (as I feel the Solar Triumvirate was, in many ways, a community effort). Distributing the profit between all involved in relation to their amount of involvement would be difficult. Only with their agreement and encouragement I'll publish this ATU. Otherwise, I'll be more than happy to provide you all with "limited license", pay-for-download quality deckplans and, later on, adventures.
By the way, are alternate rules (such as my consolidated CT chargen system) OK for a limited license?
Or "ship's-locker"-style equipment descriptions taking several pages?
ravells
January 22nd, 2006, 02:50 PM
I think my first answer was a little too trite, so i'll modify slightly.
For the older more well off players who have had a lot of years of enjoyment from playing Traveller, I think any remuneration ought to be modest, and that Marc Miller and his company ought to get the lion's share. I see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and we'll help you through the hard times. For me, Traveller is a hobby, but for MM and his employees, it's their livlihood.
For the younger, less well off players like employee perhaps the percentage take ought to be higher.
Quite how one assess the percentages, I don't know, but at the end of the day, I suppose it's down to personal choice. Contributors don't have to accept the percentage on offer, they can always accept less - or nothing at all.
I've got no stats to back it up, but I think that Traveller is not as popular as it once was and in the influx of new players is much less than in the heyday of the eighties and nineties - I guess more people play games like 'Eve online' and there is just far more competition in the market.
That was the thinking behind my last post.
Ravs
For the older more well off players who have had a lot of years of enjoyment from playing Traveller, I think any remuneration ought to be modest, and that Marc Miller and his company ought to get the lion's share. I see it as a way of saying 'thank you' and we'll help you through the hard times. For me, Traveller is a hobby, but for MM and his employees, it's their livlihood.
For the younger, less well off players like employee perhaps the percentage take ought to be higher.
Quite how one assess the percentages, I don't know, but at the end of the day, I suppose it's down to personal choice. Contributors don't have to accept the percentage on offer, they can always accept less - or nothing at all.
I've got no stats to back it up, but I think that Traveller is not as popular as it once was and in the influx of new players is much less than in the heyday of the eighties and nineties - I guess more people play games like 'Eve online' and there is just far more competition in the market.
That was the thinking behind my last post.
Ravs
daltoncalford
January 22nd, 2006, 05:45 PM
For a long term, mature player with decades of gaming background, and who has generated alot of free material for the use of the general community, all I can say is that the game will die due to the general feeling of apathy from the current players.
I have found that the joy of the game, although strong enough to keep alot of people coming to these forums, is not strong enough to cause the average player to even test free systems or alternative background material.
I feel sad with the knowledge of the eventual demise of the game.
best regards
Dalton
I have found that the joy of the game, although strong enough to keep alot of people coming to these forums, is not strong enough to cause the average player to even test free systems or alternative background material.
I feel sad with the knowledge of the eventual demise of the game.
best regards
Dalton
Falkayn
January 22nd, 2006, 06:19 PM
Games die {shrug}, people's tastes change and fashions are fickle.
I think the current renewal of the USA's space program, the increase in private ventures looking to space, and the general catch-up of the rest of the world with Russia and the USA will mean that more young people become interested in 'realistic' sci-fi RPGs than ever before.
However, that is balanced against the fact that young people nowadays have more demands on their time, and greater choices for entertainment, than ever before as well.
Personally I think that 2320AD and novel/film licenses are the way the commercial game publishers will survive. Allowing other publishers (read fanboys/girls) to make a buck off the 3rd Imperium and other (essentially dead) settings can only help boost the QuikLink/FarFuture revenue stream, and will encourage people to build material for the 'Long Tail', the huge number of consumers willing to puchase odd or unusual game products.
From Wired magazine (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html):
Forget squeezing millions from a few megahits at the top of the charts. The future of entertainment is in the millions of niche markets at the shallow end of the bitstream.In a sense this is what QuickLink are already doing with their Traveller's Aides - this step would just remove the need for them to be so involved in quality control, layout and editing.
EDIT: Of course I forgot that in the original post Hunter mentioned that OTU compatibility could not be signalled on the work, only mechanical compatibility. That leaves plenty of room for Long Tail vehicle guides, alternate ship/world building systems etc., but does curtail the amount of usefulness this process has in meeting the need of gamers for their 3rd Imperium fix ... however given the regular 'canon wars' that already take place this is probably a good thing. The sentence "nor any use of OTU material" does bother me (is calling powered armor 'battledress' a violation of this, what about the use of the term "Imperial marines"?). Having said that I would probably produce 3-4 products for very cheap sale ($1-3) immediately.
I think the current renewal of the USA's space program, the increase in private ventures looking to space, and the general catch-up of the rest of the world with Russia and the USA will mean that more young people become interested in 'realistic' sci-fi RPGs than ever before.
However, that is balanced against the fact that young people nowadays have more demands on their time, and greater choices for entertainment, than ever before as well.
Personally I think that 2320AD and novel/film licenses are the way the commercial game publishers will survive. Allowing other publishers (read fanboys/girls) to make a buck off the 3rd Imperium and other (essentially dead) settings can only help boost the QuikLink/FarFuture revenue stream, and will encourage people to build material for the 'Long Tail', the huge number of consumers willing to puchase odd or unusual game products.
From Wired magazine (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html):
Forget squeezing millions from a few megahits at the top of the charts. The future of entertainment is in the millions of niche markets at the shallow end of the bitstream.In a sense this is what QuickLink are already doing with their Traveller's Aides - this step would just remove the need for them to be so involved in quality control, layout and editing.
EDIT: Of course I forgot that in the original post Hunter mentioned that OTU compatibility could not be signalled on the work, only mechanical compatibility. That leaves plenty of room for Long Tail vehicle guides, alternate ship/world building systems etc., but does curtail the amount of usefulness this process has in meeting the need of gamers for their 3rd Imperium fix ... however given the regular 'canon wars' that already take place this is probably a good thing. The sentence "nor any use of OTU material" does bother me (is calling powered armor 'battledress' a violation of this, what about the use of the term "Imperial marines"?). Having said that I would probably produce 3-4 products for very cheap sale ($1-3) immediately.
Jeff M. Hopper
January 22nd, 2006, 09:57 PM
Personally, I'd like to see if I could make any sales if my material had a price tag attached to it. People will download or grab free stuff just because it is free most of the time, not that the free stuff has any real value. If they give money for it, then it is better proof of its own value IMHO.
Golan2072
January 23rd, 2006, 05:00 AM
The game will not die. Sure, it isn't a mainstream game, not even among RPGers, but it has its own unique appeal, and a well-made T5 will have a good chace of envigorating the game.
Just look at the numbers of daily posts on these forums; Traveller has it's niche.
Just look at the numbers of daily posts on these forums; Traveller has it's niche.
daltoncalford
January 23rd, 2006, 11:24 AM
Ok,
Lets do a quick survey.
How many people have actually gotten into a game of Traveller in the past 5 years? 2 years? 6 months?
I am not talking about making worlds or starships, or dreaming about gaming. I mean a real rpg setting where you have a group of players sitting around exploring the universe?
There are alot of people who talk the theory of the game but I don't know if it would take one hand to count the number of actual players.
Our group started with the concept of traveller, but, since the mechanics are different, the setting is different and the assumptions are different, I no longer say that we play Traveller.
So even though I play about 3 times a month (more if my wife lets me), I would not say that I have been playing Traveller.
best regards
Dalton
Lets do a quick survey.
How many people have actually gotten into a game of Traveller in the past 5 years? 2 years? 6 months?
I am not talking about making worlds or starships, or dreaming about gaming. I mean a real rpg setting where you have a group of players sitting around exploring the universe?
There are alot of people who talk the theory of the game but I don't know if it would take one hand to count the number of actual players.
Our group started with the concept of traveller, but, since the mechanics are different, the setting is different and the assumptions are different, I no longer say that we play Traveller.
So even though I play about 3 times a month (more if my wife lets me), I would not say that I have been playing Traveller.
best regards
Dalton
far-trader
January 23rd, 2006, 11:53 AM
Just a quick note, Dalton has now set up a poll for this to run until February 28, 2006. Go there to vote, and post comments there if you like. Thanks.
Do you actually play Traveller? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000121;p=1#000 000)
Do you actually play Traveller? (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/Trav/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=33;t=000121;p=1#000 000)
Flynn
January 23rd, 2006, 12:29 PM
I game T20 monthly with a group of five players in a tabletop FTF game. I've been doing so for three years now.
I've played T20 since Nov 2002 online as part of an eight-PC PBEM group with Referee, and it has been quite active.
I've played CT since January 2004 online as part of a six-PC(?) PBEM group with Referee, and it has been active, but not as active as the T20 PBEM.
I've run Traveller games at numerous conventions and local game days over the last four years, and attendance is usually very high. In fact, I ran the only Traveller games listed in Gen Con Indy 2005's schedule.
Before I started running T20, I played in a year-long GT game in 2000-2001.
I'm actively playing Traveller, and I know of about eight other people locally who are doing so, as well.
Hope that helps,
Flynn
I've played T20 since Nov 2002 online as part of an eight-PC PBEM group with Referee, and it has been quite active.
I've played CT since January 2004 online as part of a six-PC(?) PBEM group with Referee, and it has been active, but not as active as the T20 PBEM.
I've run Traveller games at numerous conventions and local game days over the last four years, and attendance is usually very high. In fact, I ran the only Traveller games listed in Gen Con Indy 2005's schedule.
Before I started running T20, I played in a year-long GT game in 2000-2001.
I'm actively playing Traveller, and I know of about eight other people locally who are doing so, as well.
Hope that helps,
Flynn
ravells
January 23rd, 2006, 02:43 PM
LOL! Unfortunately, the poll did not accomodate me...I last played Traveller 22 years ago (sigh)
As Dalton says, I just dream about gaming now.
Ravs
As Dalton says, I just dream about gaming now.
Ravs
Merxiless
February 13th, 2006, 10:37 PM
I'm still interested in this limited licensing proposal.
As to the recent drift:
Traveller is not dead until MWM dies, and nobody is playing it. That won't be for some time, I expect.
Long live Traveller.
Still my favorite RPG since 1977.
As to the recent drift:
Traveller is not dead until MWM dies, and nobody is playing it. That won't be for some time, I expect.
Long live Traveller.
Still my favorite RPG since 1977.
archhealer
February 14th, 2006, 02:19 PM
I have only played T20, however...
I am currently runnign a game with three to five players (Depending on who shows) once a month.
I am currently working on another traveller game with a different set fo players, whcih is still in the preliminary stages.
The main thing that holds me b ack isn't a lack of interest... there's plenty of that. My main problem i slacking severely in the time/money to purchase products, set things up and properly run a game. However, I'm getting by and I think my players are enjoying the game immensley. I have discovered that running a T20 game is far more labor intensive than a standard D20 DND game.
I am currently runnign a game with three to five players (Depending on who shows) once a month.
I am currently working on another traveller game with a different set fo players, whcih is still in the preliminary stages.
The main thing that holds me b ack isn't a lack of interest... there's plenty of that. My main problem i slacking severely in the time/money to purchase products, set things up and properly run a game. However, I'm getting by and I think my players are enjoying the game immensley. I have discovered that running a T20 game is far more labor intensive than a standard D20 DND game.
BillDowns
March 27th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Is this thread dead?
far-trader
March 27th, 2006, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by BillDowns:
Is this thread dead? Nah, it was merely napping ;)
Welcome aboard BillDowns :D
Is this thread dead? Nah, it was merely napping ;)
Welcome aboard BillDowns :D
BillDowns
March 27th, 2006, 02:52 PM
In that case....
I would say just try it and if no one likes, they won't do it.
One way would be to propose an Alternative traveller Universe where the basic schema gets voted on. Have a thread somewhere with maybe some sort of extra registration - free, of course - for it.
Thanks for the welcome, far-trader
I would say just try it and if no one likes, they won't do it.
One way would be to propose an Alternative traveller Universe where the basic schema gets voted on. Have a thread somewhere with maybe some sort of extra registration - free, of course - for it.
Thanks for the welcome, far-trader
Laryssa
June 26th, 2006, 10:42 AM
As you know I've had a few ideas. one of them could be called Time Traveller, it substitutes a time jump drive for the standard jump drive, and maybe I'll use some reaction engines in that as well.
KrisComet
July 8th, 2006, 09:18 PM
Very Interested, I've been doing a lot of house rules and scenario stuff for Megatraveller for a lonnnnng time... good idea, sorry if this seems late, I've been in Baghdad
staples357
October 5th, 2006, 03:34 PM
Hey Hunter,
Do the powers that be have any plans to develop a gm. screen or is that already been done? or that could be something for other people to come up with for ct. and t-20. I think one is needed for both games.
Do the powers that be have any plans to develop a gm. screen or is that already been done? or that could be something for other people to come up with for ct. and t-20. I think one is needed for both games.
hunter
October 5th, 2006, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by staples357:
Hey Hunter,
Do the powers that be have any plans to develop a gm. screen or is that already been done? or that could be something for other people to come up with for ct. and t-20. I think one is needed for both games. T20 Ref Screen (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/catalog/pview.pl?action=view&stocknum=t200002&h=header_t20&s=)
Hunter
Hey Hunter,
Do the powers that be have any plans to develop a gm. screen or is that already been done? or that could be something for other people to come up with for ct. and t-20. I think one is needed for both games. T20 Ref Screen (http://www.travellerrpg.com/cgi-bin/catalog/pview.pl?action=view&stocknum=t200002&h=header_t20&s=)
Hunter
Space Cadet
February 8th, 2007, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Would it be possible to do this outside of the OTU and have it still be considered Traveller compatible?
I'm thinking that this is a dumb question, but I am very excited by this possibility. Yes you could write it in a non-OTU setting and use the Traveller compatible logo. The 'compatibility' is refering to mechanical compatibility not setting. So you could write and adventure that is CT compatible but it cannot be set in the OTU specifically.
Hunter </font>[/QUOTE]Here is a possible non OTU Traveller compatible setting:
The Sky People (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0765314886/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-6655963-0448068#reader-link) is a novel written by S.M. Stirling, its premise is simple, it supposes an alternate history where the early 20th century Pulp Versions of Mars and Venus were true, then it establishes a realistic alternate history of the Earth assuming these premises. This book focuses on Venus, a later upcoming book, it is hinted will dwell on Mars with its ancient civilization and extensive canals.
The Venus of this book is populated by dinosaurs, prehistoric creatures and native humans. The planet has near 100% cloud cover in the form of a high atmospheric haze that reflects a good deal of sunlight back out into space, this keeps the temperature on the surface temperate to tropical.
Earth's history is the same as our up to 1961, when the first probes are sent to Venus. When the Russian probe discovers a jungle filled with creatures, humans and neanderthals, priorities are changed, a massive space race is launched to develop the rocket technology required to send people to Venus and Mars, this alters the history somewhat. For the United States, the Air Force becomes the US AeroSpace Force, the Russians along with the East Block build heavy boosters while the US develops a two-stage shuttle. research on nuclear rockets are accelerated. Along the way certain things do not happen. As the Soviets and the US turn their attention to space travel, the peripheral brushfire wars are neglected. There is no Vietnam War, the middle east is a quite place, as the superpowers are too busy to get involved in the local politics there. The current year is 1988, and both the US and Soviet Union have been maintaining bases on Venus since 1981, each has a population of about a couple of hundred people, with a bunch of natives in employ.
The treatment of the setting uses plausible technologies, spaceships and politics, given the fantastic settings of these two planets. The fact that Venus has life on it, and life related to Earth since 150 million years ago, implies some ancient intelligence at work here. Before 150 million years ago is the familiar Venus with the 90 atmopheres of carbon dioxide and the surface temperature hot enough to melt lead, and then over the next million years something changed both Venus and Mars to resemble the Pulp Versions as written about by E. R. Burrows and other Pulp Science Fiction works of the Early 20th centuries. Someone brought the dinosaurs, the humans, and prehistoric life to Venus, and that is in essence the mystery of the setting.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jeff M. Hopper:
Would it be possible to do this outside of the OTU and have it still be considered Traveller compatible?
I'm thinking that this is a dumb question, but I am very excited by this possibility. Yes you could write it in a non-OTU setting and use the Traveller compatible logo. The 'compatibility' is refering to mechanical compatibility not setting. So you could write and adventure that is CT compatible but it cannot be set in the OTU specifically.
Hunter </font>[/QUOTE]Here is a possible non OTU Traveller compatible setting:
The Sky People (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0765314886/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-6655963-0448068#reader-link) is a novel written by S.M. Stirling, its premise is simple, it supposes an alternate history where the early 20th century Pulp Versions of Mars and Venus were true, then it establishes a realistic alternate history of the Earth assuming these premises. This book focuses on Venus, a later upcoming book, it is hinted will dwell on Mars with its ancient civilization and extensive canals.
The Venus of this book is populated by dinosaurs, prehistoric creatures and native humans. The planet has near 100% cloud cover in the form of a high atmospheric haze that reflects a good deal of sunlight back out into space, this keeps the temperature on the surface temperate to tropical.
Earth's history is the same as our up to 1961, when the first probes are sent to Venus. When the Russian probe discovers a jungle filled with creatures, humans and neanderthals, priorities are changed, a massive space race is launched to develop the rocket technology required to send people to Venus and Mars, this alters the history somewhat. For the United States, the Air Force becomes the US AeroSpace Force, the Russians along with the East Block build heavy boosters while the US develops a two-stage shuttle. research on nuclear rockets are accelerated. Along the way certain things do not happen. As the Soviets and the US turn their attention to space travel, the peripheral brushfire wars are neglected. There is no Vietnam War, the middle east is a quite place, as the superpowers are too busy to get involved in the local politics there. The current year is 1988, and both the US and Soviet Union have been maintaining bases on Venus since 1981, each has a population of about a couple of hundred people, with a bunch of natives in employ.
The treatment of the setting uses plausible technologies, spaceships and politics, given the fantastic settings of these two planets. The fact that Venus has life on it, and life related to Earth since 150 million years ago, implies some ancient intelligence at work here. Before 150 million years ago is the familiar Venus with the 90 atmopheres of carbon dioxide and the surface temperature hot enough to melt lead, and then over the next million years something changed both Venus and Mars to resemble the Pulp Versions as written about by E. R. Burrows and other Pulp Science Fiction works of the Early 20th centuries. Someone brought the dinosaurs, the humans, and prehistoric life to Venus, and that is in essence the mystery of the setting.
Border Reiver
February 8th, 2007, 05:50 PM
Goodness me, this is the second person posting in support of SMS' SkyPeople this week.
Tom Kalbfus, late of this Parish said this on the New Mars boards (http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=96809&highlight=#96809)
Amazing synchronicity. :D ;)
How ya doin'?
Tom Kalbfus, late of this Parish said this on the New Mars boards (http://www.newmars.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=96809&highlight=#96809)
Amazing synchronicity. :D ;)
How ya doin'?
Space Cadet
February 8th, 2007, 09:21 PM
So tell me Mr. Reiver, are you a hacker?
Do you write viruses to spy on people's personal computers, tracking the e-mail and so forth?
Because I have not furnished you with any information for you to come to any firm conclusions about my identity, unless you are a writer of spyware. Perhaps it is you who is responsible for all the popups, I've been getting lately, or perhaps not. Tom Kalbfus is not a celebrity or any famous person. Why are you so obsessed? Don't you have anything better to do with your life than follow some person around on the Web? I for one am more interested in ideas than in people. So if your going to stalk somebody, why don't you go bother Brittany Spears or someone like that who's a real celebrity? If you don't want to talk about the book, fine, but I'm not interested in your personal agenda about who's doing what, and if your writing spyware and invading other people's pritate lives and their computers, I wish you'd just get a life and mind your own busniness. I don't give a damn about who's who, that's why I don't use my own name on these boards, I'd rather talk about good ideas for traveller products which is the subject of this particular board, not about who's doing what where. There are boards for gossip about people and this is not one of them. If your spying on people and bugging people, I wish you would stop it, and stop with the skulking ok. I don't care about you personal agenda, leave it off these boards.
Do you write viruses to spy on people's personal computers, tracking the e-mail and so forth?
Because I have not furnished you with any information for you to come to any firm conclusions about my identity, unless you are a writer of spyware. Perhaps it is you who is responsible for all the popups, I've been getting lately, or perhaps not. Tom Kalbfus is not a celebrity or any famous person. Why are you so obsessed? Don't you have anything better to do with your life than follow some person around on the Web? I for one am more interested in ideas than in people. So if your going to stalk somebody, why don't you go bother Brittany Spears or someone like that who's a real celebrity? If you don't want to talk about the book, fine, but I'm not interested in your personal agenda about who's doing what, and if your writing spyware and invading other people's pritate lives and their computers, I wish you'd just get a life and mind your own busniness. I don't give a damn about who's who, that's why I don't use my own name on these boards, I'd rather talk about good ideas for traveller products which is the subject of this particular board, not about who's doing what where. There are boards for gossip about people and this is not one of them. If your spying on people and bugging people, I wish you would stop it, and stop with the skulking ok. I don't care about you personal agenda, leave it off these boards.
Malenfant
February 8th, 2007, 10:16 PM
Uh, Tom, your writing style is what gives you away - nobody even needs to do any "spying". For all you know, BR may be on that other board anyway and just noticed the similarity. As it is, I had a sneaky suspicion about your real identity before BR ever pointed it out, just from how you were writing things (i.e. long posts with new rules with no introductions, rambling obsession with alternate realities, generally not answering questions etc).
Enoff
February 9th, 2007, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
So tell me Mr. Reiver, are you a hacker?
Do you write viruses to spy on people's personal computers, tracking the e-mail and so forth?
Wow! Ha Ha that is true paranoia!
I have noticed that a lot of people are on several boards at the same time, how could you not have?
graemlins/file_21.gif
Well anyways I don't want this to turn into a gossip flame war either. I like the idea of alternate histories and I am a fan of the old pulps. I think I lean more towards Otis Adelbert Kline's vision of Venus than a Arthur Conan Doyle stellar Lost World.
Cool how several websites are making available these old Sci-fi stories: Top Sci-fi authors of the 19th - 20th century (http://arthurwendover.com/arthurs/top-sci-fi.html)
So tell me Mr. Reiver, are you a hacker?
Do you write viruses to spy on people's personal computers, tracking the e-mail and so forth?
Wow! Ha Ha that is true paranoia!
I have noticed that a lot of people are on several boards at the same time, how could you not have?
graemlins/file_21.gif
Well anyways I don't want this to turn into a gossip flame war either. I like the idea of alternate histories and I am a fan of the old pulps. I think I lean more towards Otis Adelbert Kline's vision of Venus than a Arthur Conan Doyle stellar Lost World.
Cool how several websites are making available these old Sci-fi stories: Top Sci-fi authors of the 19th - 20th century (http://arthurwendover.com/arthurs/top-sci-fi.html)
sgbrown
February 9th, 2007, 10:49 AM
Ok - back to thoughts for material.
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Vensus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}. My inspiration from this is from an actual at least semi-serious proposal:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
Steve B
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Vensus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}. My inspiration from this is from an actual at least semi-serious proposal:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
Steve B
Roger Calver
February 9th, 2007, 11:01 AM
Space Cadet, take a deep breath count to 10 and then repeat until a sense of calm fills your life smile.gif
atpollard
February 9th, 2007, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Venus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}.That article was better than 90% of the fiction worlds that I have read about.
Do you think a floating city could work on a gas giant?
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Venus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}.That article was better than 90% of the fiction worlds that I have read about.
Do you think a floating city could work on a gas giant?
Space Cadet
February 10th, 2007, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Ok - back to thoughts for material.
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Vensus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}. My inspiration from this is from an actual at least semi-serious proposal:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
Steve B In a hostile Venus, either your environmental suit keeps you alive or it does not.
If it does not, you suffer a quick death, not much of an adventure.
If it does, you get to walk around in a rather boring landscape collecting rocks. I guess you can have avalanches, Venusquakes and volcanic eruptions to make life interesting, but that is about the extent of adventuring that a hostile Venus provides you. Of course you could have a bad guy in another environmental suit firing his weapon at you, but then you could have the same guy in a space suit firing his weapon at you on the Moon or Mars, the environment of Venus really doesn't add anything to the encounter other than affecting the way you move and your style of combat. Nothing originating on Venus other than the natural geological events I mentioned really does anything to threaten you or to make your stroll on Venus interesting. Your suit could fail and you could die of course.
So your optinons on Venus are the following
1) Endure Venusquakes, Volcanic eruptions, or avalanches.
2) Suffer from environmental suit failure and die.
or
3) Bring someone along to attack you.
That's about it.
I think Pulp Venus has some more interesting encounters, has some mystery about it. If you want a realistic Pulp Venus, there is the mystery of who made Venus that way, and why its not the hostile Venus you mentioned.
The hostile Venus just is, that't its natural state. The only remarkable thing is if its not in its natural state then you have to ask who made it that way. You could have a terraformed Venus, which is basically the Pulp Venus, and a Pulp Venus is simply a Venus terraformed long ago by somebody, this is the end product of terraforming, and there really is more adventure and mystery in this sort of Venus rather than hostile Venus or a Venus undergoing terraforming.
Having ruins and artifacts to plow through is more interesting than having nonruins that are perfectly function and that you built yourself and know everything about.
This is the same analogy between a derelict space station and a non derelect space station.
Derelect space stations are fun to explore, while nonderelect space stations are places to go shopping.
Ok - back to thoughts for material.
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Vensus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}. My inspiration from this is from an actual at least semi-serious proposal:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
Steve B In a hostile Venus, either your environmental suit keeps you alive or it does not.
If it does not, you suffer a quick death, not much of an adventure.
If it does, you get to walk around in a rather boring landscape collecting rocks. I guess you can have avalanches, Venusquakes and volcanic eruptions to make life interesting, but that is about the extent of adventuring that a hostile Venus provides you. Of course you could have a bad guy in another environmental suit firing his weapon at you, but then you could have the same guy in a space suit firing his weapon at you on the Moon or Mars, the environment of Venus really doesn't add anything to the encounter other than affecting the way you move and your style of combat. Nothing originating on Venus other than the natural geological events I mentioned really does anything to threaten you or to make your stroll on Venus interesting. Your suit could fail and you could die of course.
So your optinons on Venus are the following
1) Endure Venusquakes, Volcanic eruptions, or avalanches.
2) Suffer from environmental suit failure and die.
or
3) Bring someone along to attack you.
That's about it.
I think Pulp Venus has some more interesting encounters, has some mystery about it. If you want a realistic Pulp Venus, there is the mystery of who made Venus that way, and why its not the hostile Venus you mentioned.
The hostile Venus just is, that't its natural state. The only remarkable thing is if its not in its natural state then you have to ask who made it that way. You could have a terraformed Venus, which is basically the Pulp Venus, and a Pulp Venus is simply a Venus terraformed long ago by somebody, this is the end product of terraforming, and there really is more adventure and mystery in this sort of Venus rather than hostile Venus or a Venus undergoing terraforming.
Having ruins and artifacts to plow through is more interesting than having nonruins that are perfectly function and that you built yourself and know everything about.
This is the same analogy between a derelict space station and a non derelect space station.
Derelect space stations are fun to explore, while nonderelect space stations are places to go shopping.
sgbrown
February 10th, 2007, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Ok - back to thoughts for material.
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Vensus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}. My inspiration from this is from an actual at least semi-serious proposal:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
Steve B In a hostile Venus, either your environmental suit keeps you alive or it does not.
-clip-
</font>[/QUOTE]Space Cadet, 1st Read the article - enviro suit not required. The article postulated colonizing Vensus with floating cities at 50 km - using existing technology. And it seems quite feasible, with the sole exception of how to get the quantities of materials needed to Vensus.
If you have floating cities - you could have abandoned floating cities just as easy as ruins on the ground. Also if your using OTU - then the cities may have been there for some time (1st Imperium, Rule of Man, others?) and not something you already know. There are a lot of possibilities.
Additionally you can have tremendous adventure in populated areas. One city ploting to let the air out of another. Failing altitude control needing to be repaired due to pirate attack. Murder by exposure to the atm. The list goes on - limited only by your imagination.
If you like pulp, you can reinvent Vensus and Mars to have active life now - but that's fantasy not Sci Fi (not that there's anything wrong with fantasy - just not what I'm interested in.) And as you've pointed out several times, there is existing material to cover the pulp angle. The product I'm suggesting takes a different track.
Like I said, read the article - and open your mind, you may find some interesting setting ideas for a new product. Or stick to pulp - just don't expect me to buy the product.
Steve B
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
Ok - back to thoughts for material.
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Vensus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}. My inspiration from this is from an actual at least semi-serious proposal:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
Steve B In a hostile Venus, either your environmental suit keeps you alive or it does not.
-clip-
</font>[/QUOTE]Space Cadet, 1st Read the article - enviro suit not required. The article postulated colonizing Vensus with floating cities at 50 km - using existing technology. And it seems quite feasible, with the sole exception of how to get the quantities of materials needed to Vensus.
If you have floating cities - you could have abandoned floating cities just as easy as ruins on the ground. Also if your using OTU - then the cities may have been there for some time (1st Imperium, Rule of Man, others?) and not something you already know. There are a lot of possibilities.
Additionally you can have tremendous adventure in populated areas. One city ploting to let the air out of another. Failing altitude control needing to be repaired due to pirate attack. Murder by exposure to the atm. The list goes on - limited only by your imagination.
If you like pulp, you can reinvent Vensus and Mars to have active life now - but that's fantasy not Sci Fi (not that there's anything wrong with fantasy - just not what I'm interested in.) And as you've pointed out several times, there is existing material to cover the pulp angle. The product I'm suggesting takes a different track.
Like I said, read the article - and open your mind, you may find some interesting setting ideas for a new product. Or stick to pulp - just don't expect me to buy the product.
Steve B
sgbrown
February 10th, 2007, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Venus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}.That article was better than 90% of the fiction worlds that I have read about.
Do you think a floating city could work on a gas giant? </font>[/QUOTE]The article makes an excellent case for it working on Venus. Don't see why it wouldn't work on a Gas Giant in the habitable zone - provided breathable air is less dense than the gas giant atmosphere (not likely - but possible.)
Quick Summary of the Article: At about 50 km, Venus atmosphere is near earth normal gravity and temperature at 1 atm of pressure. There's sufficient atmosphere above to provide shielding from cosmic rays and the solar flares. And breathable atmosphere is lighter than Vensus atmosphere - so it can provide the lift.
Other that the technology for getting the resources there, we've had pretty much what we need since the mid to late 30's (Consider the Hindenburg with breathable air instead of Hydrogen for lift.) Issues to still work out include closed ecosystems/recycling, sufficient light wieght protection from the sulphric acid in the atmosphere - and a reason for being there.
That's why I think this would make an exceptional Sci Fi setting - exotic as all get out, but with valid hard science solutions.
Steve B
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
I'd love to see one on colonization of a hostile world such as Venus {as we know it- vs the pulp fiction type}.That article was better than 90% of the fiction worlds that I have read about.
Do you think a floating city could work on a gas giant? </font>[/QUOTE]The article makes an excellent case for it working on Venus. Don't see why it wouldn't work on a Gas Giant in the habitable zone - provided breathable air is less dense than the gas giant atmosphere (not likely - but possible.)
Quick Summary of the Article: At about 50 km, Venus atmosphere is near earth normal gravity and temperature at 1 atm of pressure. There's sufficient atmosphere above to provide shielding from cosmic rays and the solar flares. And breathable atmosphere is lighter than Vensus atmosphere - so it can provide the lift.
Other that the technology for getting the resources there, we've had pretty much what we need since the mid to late 30's (Consider the Hindenburg with breathable air instead of Hydrogen for lift.) Issues to still work out include closed ecosystems/recycling, sufficient light wieght protection from the sulphric acid in the atmosphere - and a reason for being there.
That's why I think this would make an exceptional Sci Fi setting - exotic as all get out, but with valid hard science solutions.
Steve B
atpollard
February 10th, 2007, 04:20 PM
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
In a hostile Venus, either your environmental suit keeps you alive or it does not.
If it does not, you suffer a quick death, not much of an adventure.
If it does, you get to walk around in a rather boring landscape collecting rocks. Given your personal preferences, re-read the article and imagine Captain Nemo meets Space 1889, except without the magic. Imagine a Venus colony founded by Van Braun in the 1970's (Apollo Era Tech), isolated by WW3 in the 1980's and forced to evolve and survive on their own until the Southeast Asian Space Agency makes contact in 2080.
Read up on ocean volcanic life and translate it to Venus atmosphere as alien life forms.
No adventure seeds to be found there. smile.gif
In a hostile Venus, either your environmental suit keeps you alive or it does not.
If it does not, you suffer a quick death, not much of an adventure.
If it does, you get to walk around in a rather boring landscape collecting rocks. Given your personal preferences, re-read the article and imagine Captain Nemo meets Space 1889, except without the magic. Imagine a Venus colony founded by Van Braun in the 1970's (Apollo Era Tech), isolated by WW3 in the 1980's and forced to evolve and survive on their own until the Southeast Asian Space Agency makes contact in 2080.
Read up on ocean volcanic life and translate it to Venus atmosphere as alien life forms.
No adventure seeds to be found there. smile.gif
Space Cadet
February 10th, 2007, 11:06 PM
Interesting article. Of course 50 km above the Earth's surface is nearly in space, above Venus its 1 bar. 50 degrees celsius is a bit toasty, probably radiator fins can disappate some of that heat, cooling the oxygen and nitrogen does make it less bouyant though. Living in Aerostat communities is a bit like the Jetsons, you'd need flying cars or airplanes to commute from one areostat to the other. areo stats would probably move in realtion to each other, so each one would have to be tracked by satellite. While a balloon would be great for living, for transportation, a heavier than air airplane would be desirable, Airbreathing jet engines wouldn't work, a flimsy solar powered airplane could work, although its speed would not be great, it would have a large wing structure to hold solar arrays, and it would need a large wing span in anycase to maximise lift due to its slow relative airspeed. Rocket planes are of course possible.
One interesting way to "move" would be to anchor the airplane to the ground and let the relative superrotation of the atmosphere provide the lift while the airplane remains stationary relative to the Surface of Venus. Venus's atmosphere would then bring the "destination" aerostat around towards the air plane as it waited. Some northward or southward traverse may be necessary for intercept.
It would be interesting to postulate a parallel Venus of sorts though, say a "Bermuda triangle" exists in Venus's atmosphere leading to a more habitable parallel Venus. Hostile Venus would be more humans vs humans, or perhaps humans versus robots.
Back to your topic, an aerostat community would have a major problem on its hands. Dropping into Venus's atmosphere from space is alot easier than getting back out into space from Venus's atmosphere. I think in the early term, people sent to Venus would be stuck there as there would initially not be enough of them to maintain the infrastructure to launch a spaceship back into orbit. One possibility is a penal colony Criminals would be exiled to Venus, provided with the means to stay alive, grow their own food, and resupply is a possibility, but getting back to orbit requires multi-staged chemical rockets, or some kind of reusable 2-stage shuttle for example.
Lets say there is a two-stage shuttle that gets passengers into Earth orbit, a nuclear powered system ship that gets passengers from Earth orbit to Venus orbit, and a reentry capsule that was lifted up to the system ship by the Earth shuttle and delivered to Venus by that System ship, and then dropped into Venus's atmosphere.
The Two-stage Shuttle on Earth consists of a lower Rocket Plane Stage that takes off from runways and lifts the upper stage high in the atmosphere and releases it, where it completes the journey to Orbit. A similar thing would work on Venus too of course, the only difference being is that their would not be enough people or infrastructure to maintain the lower stage rocket plane and turn it around for reuse when the Venus shuttle return's to Venus's atmosphere. Labor is scarce on Venus, on Earth the Two-Stage shuttle requires an army of technitians to maintain the shuttle, and the lower stage, no similar repair facility exists on Venus. You might be able to send the Upper stage back to Earth for a refit, or repair it in orbit, but the lower stage rocket plane would have to remain within Venus's atmosphere.
On second thought criminals are probably not sent to Venus, not until travel off Earth becomes much cheaper at any rate, travel off Venus would then become proportionally more feasible too.
A Space elevator would work on Earth, and it would Work on Venus too, its just that the lower end would dangle rather than being anchored to the surface.
But since we're talking fiction anyway, exploring Venus as it might have been is also fun as exploring it as it is.
One interesting way to "move" would be to anchor the airplane to the ground and let the relative superrotation of the atmosphere provide the lift while the airplane remains stationary relative to the Surface of Venus. Venus's atmosphere would then bring the "destination" aerostat around towards the air plane as it waited. Some northward or southward traverse may be necessary for intercept.
It would be interesting to postulate a parallel Venus of sorts though, say a "Bermuda triangle" exists in Venus's atmosphere leading to a more habitable parallel Venus. Hostile Venus would be more humans vs humans, or perhaps humans versus robots.
Back to your topic, an aerostat community would have a major problem on its hands. Dropping into Venus's atmosphere from space is alot easier than getting back out into space from Venus's atmosphere. I think in the early term, people sent to Venus would be stuck there as there would initially not be enough of them to maintain the infrastructure to launch a spaceship back into orbit. One possibility is a penal colony Criminals would be exiled to Venus, provided with the means to stay alive, grow their own food, and resupply is a possibility, but getting back to orbit requires multi-staged chemical rockets, or some kind of reusable 2-stage shuttle for example.
Lets say there is a two-stage shuttle that gets passengers into Earth orbit, a nuclear powered system ship that gets passengers from Earth orbit to Venus orbit, and a reentry capsule that was lifted up to the system ship by the Earth shuttle and delivered to Venus by that System ship, and then dropped into Venus's atmosphere.
The Two-stage Shuttle on Earth consists of a lower Rocket Plane Stage that takes off from runways and lifts the upper stage high in the atmosphere and releases it, where it completes the journey to Orbit. A similar thing would work on Venus too of course, the only difference being is that their would not be enough people or infrastructure to maintain the lower stage rocket plane and turn it around for reuse when the Venus shuttle return's to Venus's atmosphere. Labor is scarce on Venus, on Earth the Two-Stage shuttle requires an army of technitians to maintain the shuttle, and the lower stage, no similar repair facility exists on Venus. You might be able to send the Upper stage back to Earth for a refit, or repair it in orbit, but the lower stage rocket plane would have to remain within Venus's atmosphere.
On second thought criminals are probably not sent to Venus, not until travel off Earth becomes much cheaper at any rate, travel off Venus would then become proportionally more feasible too.
A Space elevator would work on Earth, and it would Work on Venus too, its just that the lower end would dangle rather than being anchored to the surface.
But since we're talking fiction anyway, exploring Venus as it might have been is also fun as exploring it as it is.
sgbrown
February 13th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
...clip...
Back to your topic, an aerostat community would have a major problem on its hands. Dropping into Venus's atmosphere from space is alot easier than getting back out into space from Venus's atmosphere. I think in the early term, people sent to Venus would be stuck there as there would initially not be enough of them to maintain the infrastructure to launch a spaceship back into orbit. One possibility is a penal colony Criminals would be exiled to Venus, provided with the means to stay alive, grow their own food, and resupply is a possibility, but getting back to orbit requires multi-staged chemical rockets, or some kind of reusable 2-stage shuttle for example.
...clip... Given a the postulated m-drive (meaning a drive to allowing you to reach space and manuever in space without carrying the disposable reaction mass), which in Traveller shows up at TL 9, the access issues go away. Of course you're still left with why?
...clip...
Back to your topic, an aerostat community would have a major problem on its hands. Dropping into Venus's atmosphere from space is alot easier than getting back out into space from Venus's atmosphere. I think in the early term, people sent to Venus would be stuck there as there would initially not be enough of them to maintain the infrastructure to launch a spaceship back into orbit. One possibility is a penal colony Criminals would be exiled to Venus, provided with the means to stay alive, grow their own food, and resupply is a possibility, but getting back to orbit requires multi-staged chemical rockets, or some kind of reusable 2-stage shuttle for example.
...clip... Given a the postulated m-drive (meaning a drive to allowing you to reach space and manuever in space without carrying the disposable reaction mass), which in Traveller shows up at TL 9, the access issues go away. Of course you're still left with why?
Space Cadet
February 13th, 2007, 08:56 PM
With the current Venus, why is a good question. With the Pulp Venus, those M-Drives are made by the aliens and no one can explain them.
sgbrown
February 14th, 2007, 03:24 PM
In the pulp version you've also got usable land, people and other reasons to be at Vensus.
Real world, lots of adventure if theres a colony or colonies there - but why would we put them there?
ATP's question about wether or not a similar concept would work with a Gas Giant is interesting since in a traveller scenario a colony around and in a gas giant makes a lot of sense.
SGB
Real world, lots of adventure if theres a colony or colonies there - but why would we put them there?
ATP's question about wether or not a similar concept would work with a Gas Giant is interesting since in a traveller scenario a colony around and in a gas giant makes a lot of sense.
SGB
Malenfant
February 14th, 2007, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
ATP's question about wether or not a similar concept would work with a Gas Giant is interesting since in a traveller scenario a colony around and in a gas giant makes a lot of sense.[/QB]I'd be curious to know why you think a gas giant colony would make a lot of sense. As an environment it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole - the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything, and if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom. Also you've got pretty major radiation levels, ridiculously strong winds (usually hurricane-force minimum if a storm comes through) and extreme weather that makes the worst of what we have on Earth look like a light breeze. Plus the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave.
ATP's question about wether or not a similar concept would work with a Gas Giant is interesting since in a traveller scenario a colony around and in a gas giant makes a lot of sense.[/QB]I'd be curious to know why you think a gas giant colony would make a lot of sense. As an environment it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole - the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything, and if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom. Also you've got pretty major radiation levels, ridiculously strong winds (usually hurricane-force minimum if a storm comes through) and extreme weather that makes the worst of what we have on Earth look like a light breeze. Plus the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave.
atpollard
February 14th, 2007, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
I'd be curious to know why you think a gas giant colony would make a lot of sense. As an environment it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole - the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything, and if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom. Also you've got pretty major radiation levels, ridiculously strong winds (usually hurricane-force minimum if a storm comes through) and extreme weather that makes the worst of what we have on Earth look like a light breeze. Plus the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave. Looks like somebody didn't read the article. ;)
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
It might not be possible on a Gas Giant, but many of those issues were covered in the article.
I'd be curious to know why you think a gas giant colony would make a lot of sense. As an environment it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole - the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything, and if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom. Also you've got pretty major radiation levels, ridiculously strong winds (usually hurricane-force minimum if a storm comes through) and extreme weather that makes the worst of what we have on Earth look like a light breeze. Plus the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave. Looks like somebody didn't read the article. ;)
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
It might not be possible on a Gas Giant, but many of those issues were covered in the article.
Jeff M. Hopper
February 14th, 2007, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
Looks like somebody didn't read the article. ;)
He was too busy trying to oppress us with his realism. ;)
Looks like somebody didn't read the article. ;)
He was too busy trying to oppress us with his realism. ;)
Malenfant
February 14th, 2007, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
It might not be possible on a Gas Giant, but many of those issues were covered in the article. [/QB]Well for starters, breathable air wouldn't be a lifting gas on a jovian, since everything else is denser than the ambient hydrogen. I think the only thing buoyant there would be hot hydrogen, and I'm not sure it'd have much lifting power. And obviously you're not going to put a town in a hot hydrogen envelope.
Also, Solar power would only be abundant as a power source on jovians in the inner solar system, CO2 and Nitrogen aren't particularly abundant in most gas giants, silicon and other metals would have to be imported from satellites around the gas giant (which may all be ice covered)...
So no, most of the issues specific to living in a jovian's atmosphere aren't covered at all by that article (it doesn't even mention many of the problems I talked about, so I'm not sure why you pointed me to the article again).
Sorry if that's "oppressing you with realism".
http://powerweb.grc.nasa.gov/pvsee/publications/venus/VenusColony_STAIF03.pdf
It might not be possible on a Gas Giant, but many of those issues were covered in the article. [/QB]Well for starters, breathable air wouldn't be a lifting gas on a jovian, since everything else is denser than the ambient hydrogen. I think the only thing buoyant there would be hot hydrogen, and I'm not sure it'd have much lifting power. And obviously you're not going to put a town in a hot hydrogen envelope.
Also, Solar power would only be abundant as a power source on jovians in the inner solar system, CO2 and Nitrogen aren't particularly abundant in most gas giants, silicon and other metals would have to be imported from satellites around the gas giant (which may all be ice covered)...
So no, most of the issues specific to living in a jovian's atmosphere aren't covered at all by that article (it doesn't even mention many of the problems I talked about, so I'm not sure why you pointed me to the article again).
Sorry if that's "oppressing you with realism".
atpollard
February 15th, 2007, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
So no, most of the issues specific to living in a jovian's atmosphere aren't covered at all by that article (it doesn't even mention many of the problems I talked about, so I'm not sure why you pointed me to the article again). Mal, please do not take offense at this, it is intended as an answer to your question and nothing more.
The basic premise of the article was that although Venus at first appears to be a very bad place to live, it could have a number of advantages. A floating balloon of breathable gas would provide near Earth gravity and would float at an elevation where the outside pressure is about 1 atmosphere. This would make the structure less expensive than many proposed orbital habitats and the planetary atmosphere above the floating habitat would be shielded from solar radiation by the planet.
Not being a planetary scientist, I wondered out loud whether such a floating city could exist in the atmosphere of a Gas Giant. I do know that the density of the atmosphere around Jupiter varies from a faint trace at the outermost edge (like the atmosphere of Earth) to crushing pressures deep down. Although I admit that it may not be possible, it is not unreasonable to wonder whether an airship of breathable air at human comfort temperature could be made to float at some depth between the outer trace and the crushing depths of a gas giant. If it could, then it would be reasonable to also ask what the gravity would be at this altitude and would the atmosphere protect the airship from radiation? I do realize that the Jovian Airship would probably be more like a submarine – designed to resist outside pressure rather than a simple bag of air in equilibrium.
As to why I pointed the article out to you, the “specific problems� that you mentioned included:
1. it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole
2. the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything,
3. if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom.
4. you've got pretty major radiation levels,
5. ridiculously strong winds
6. the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave.
The article did address hostile corrosive atmospheres (1), a buoyant city has no grav plates (3), and radiation (4). So at least half of your original issues were discussed in the article. In addition, items (5) and (6) could be affected by altitude or choosing a gas giant other than Jupiter.
The additional information provided in your follow up post makes it unlikely that this would work in a hydrogen atmosphere. The next logical question is what other world/atmosphere/orbit combinations could it work on? How large can a rock world get and how thick of an atmosphere can be formed by out-gassing from the crust? What is the gravity and lift at 1 atmosphere on this hypothetical world? Here your opinions could be constructive rather than merely mildly dismissive (ok, if my idea will not work, then what will?)
So no, most of the issues specific to living in a jovian's atmosphere aren't covered at all by that article (it doesn't even mention many of the problems I talked about, so I'm not sure why you pointed me to the article again). Mal, please do not take offense at this, it is intended as an answer to your question and nothing more.
The basic premise of the article was that although Venus at first appears to be a very bad place to live, it could have a number of advantages. A floating balloon of breathable gas would provide near Earth gravity and would float at an elevation where the outside pressure is about 1 atmosphere. This would make the structure less expensive than many proposed orbital habitats and the planetary atmosphere above the floating habitat would be shielded from solar radiation by the planet.
Not being a planetary scientist, I wondered out loud whether such a floating city could exist in the atmosphere of a Gas Giant. I do know that the density of the atmosphere around Jupiter varies from a faint trace at the outermost edge (like the atmosphere of Earth) to crushing pressures deep down. Although I admit that it may not be possible, it is not unreasonable to wonder whether an airship of breathable air at human comfort temperature could be made to float at some depth between the outer trace and the crushing depths of a gas giant. If it could, then it would be reasonable to also ask what the gravity would be at this altitude and would the atmosphere protect the airship from radiation? I do realize that the Jovian Airship would probably be more like a submarine – designed to resist outside pressure rather than a simple bag of air in equilibrium.
As to why I pointed the article out to you, the “specific problems� that you mentioned included:
1. it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole
2. the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything,
3. if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom.
4. you've got pretty major radiation levels,
5. ridiculously strong winds
6. the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave.
The article did address hostile corrosive atmospheres (1), a buoyant city has no grav plates (3), and radiation (4). So at least half of your original issues were discussed in the article. In addition, items (5) and (6) could be affected by altitude or choosing a gas giant other than Jupiter.
The additional information provided in your follow up post makes it unlikely that this would work in a hydrogen atmosphere. The next logical question is what other world/atmosphere/orbit combinations could it work on? How large can a rock world get and how thick of an atmosphere can be formed by out-gassing from the crust? What is the gravity and lift at 1 atmosphere on this hypothetical world? Here your opinions could be constructive rather than merely mildly dismissive (ok, if my idea will not work, then what will?)
Malenfant
February 15th, 2007, 12:53 AM
The problem with an air balloon on a GG is that it's always going to be much denser than the surrounding atmosphere. You can have all the pressure in the world, but if the density of the surrounding material is still lower than that of the air in the balloon then it's still just going to sink like a rock. I'm not sure that there's any survivable depth where the hydrogen is compressed enough to allow an air balloon to be neutrally buoyant.
As another possibility, the Venus balloon city concept would probably work on a rocky world with a Dense, High (D) atmosphere (though you might need to have it more like a huge zeppelin, with the city attached as a gondola below a lighter-than-air gas balloon).
But gas giants are a different kettle of fish altogether. Even the smaller ones aren't nice places to be (IIRC Neptune had some winds clocked at about 1000 km/h recently).
I have to admit, I probably wouldn't feel all that comfortable living in a big balloon buffetting around in the atmosphere of an acidic hellhole... ;)
As another possibility, the Venus balloon city concept would probably work on a rocky world with a Dense, High (D) atmosphere (though you might need to have it more like a huge zeppelin, with the city attached as a gondola below a lighter-than-air gas balloon).
But gas giants are a different kettle of fish altogether. Even the smaller ones aren't nice places to be (IIRC Neptune had some winds clocked at about 1000 km/h recently).
I have to admit, I probably wouldn't feel all that comfortable living in a big balloon buffetting around in the atmosphere of an acidic hellhole... ;)
Liam Devlin
February 15th, 2007, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by starflash:
Very Interested, I've been doing a lot of house rules and scenario stuff for Megatraveller for a lonnnnng time... good idea, sorry if this seems late, I've been in Baghdad HooAH! Welcome back from the front, brother. Glad to have you in one piece. What part of the City of Sin were you in?
Very Interested, I've been doing a lot of house rules and scenario stuff for Megatraveller for a lonnnnng time... good idea, sorry if this seems late, I've been in Baghdad HooAH! Welcome back from the front, brother. Glad to have you in one piece. What part of the City of Sin were you in?
TheEngineer
February 15th, 2007, 02:51 AM
Hi !
Well, you could try to build a (very) rigid hull constructon filled with standard pressure atmo as buoyancy unit.
E.g. at considerable atmo depth, where the outside pressure is around 300 times standard value a typical real world balloon sized thing (e.g. 5000 m³) could provide 130 minus weight of construction tons of lift.
Now the problem is to find a point, where outside pressure/density is high enough to cause lift, but still low enough to let your construction survive smile.gif
At least undersea cities are canonical in Traveller, so perhaps the pressure and material issues are solved here...
But as Mal already noted, I could think of many places more comfortable than this one.
As for Atpollards question for gravity and lift:
Gravity is not relevant, as its a proportional factor for both weight of a construction and the buoyancy lift.
Venus atmo should have a density of 1,4 kg/m³ here (normalized to a temperatur of 273 K). Helium would have 0,18 kg/m³. So any volume filled with helium would provide around 1,2 kg lift per m³.
If the weight of the supporting construction at least equals the lift the thing floats.....
A very basic problem might be, that good lift need thick atmo and thick atmo often means high atmo energy density = fierce wind conditions ....
And regarding the gravity problem, isn't Saturn a bit more comfortable here ?
regards,
TE
Well, you could try to build a (very) rigid hull constructon filled with standard pressure atmo as buoyancy unit.
E.g. at considerable atmo depth, where the outside pressure is around 300 times standard value a typical real world balloon sized thing (e.g. 5000 m³) could provide 130 minus weight of construction tons of lift.
Now the problem is to find a point, where outside pressure/density is high enough to cause lift, but still low enough to let your construction survive smile.gif
At least undersea cities are canonical in Traveller, so perhaps the pressure and material issues are solved here...
But as Mal already noted, I could think of many places more comfortable than this one.
As for Atpollards question for gravity and lift:
Gravity is not relevant, as its a proportional factor for both weight of a construction and the buoyancy lift.
Venus atmo should have a density of 1,4 kg/m³ here (normalized to a temperatur of 273 K). Helium would have 0,18 kg/m³. So any volume filled with helium would provide around 1,2 kg lift per m³.
If the weight of the supporting construction at least equals the lift the thing floats.....
A very basic problem might be, that good lift need thick atmo and thick atmo often means high atmo energy density = fierce wind conditions ....
And regarding the gravity problem, isn't Saturn a bit more comfortable here ?
regards,
TE
Space Cadet
February 15th, 2007, 02:57 AM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
ATP's question about wether or not a similar concept would work with a Gas Giant is interesting since in a traveller scenario a colony around and in a gas giant makes a lot of sense.I'd be curious to know why you think a gas giant colony would make a lot of sense. As an environment it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole - the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything, and if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom. Also you've got pretty major radiation levels, ridiculously strong winds (usually hurricane-force minimum if a storm comes through) and extreme weather that makes the worst of what we have on Earth look like a light breeze. Plus the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Hydrogen is not especially toxic, the main danger is that of an explosion if it mixes with the breathable air in sufficient quantity. The solution is fairly simple, instead of trying to stop the hydrogen from leaking in, you simply scrub the hydrogen out of the air by forcibly combusting it. If you circulate the air through a compressor, that compresses and heats the air, the trace amounts of hydrogen will combust with free oxygen, decompress the air and the result is air with a little extra water vapor in in more than there was before.
The air you breath is not a lifting gas on Jupiter, so you simply heat hydrogen within the gas bag so that it is less dense than the surrounding hydrogen on the outside. At the temperatures prevalent on Jupiter, the interior gas doesn't have to be especially hot, room temperature would do, and within the hydrogen envelope, you have a much smaller gas bag that contains breathable air, at the same temperature as the warm hydrogen surrounding it The most obvious energy source would be a fusion reactor.
As far as radiation goes, the biggest source of radiation at the one bar atmosphere would be the fusion reactor. The Van Allen belts of Jupiter don't descend very far into the Jovian atmosphere. Where the radiation meets the atmosphere, the charged particles decellerate producing Aurora Borealis near Jupiter's North and South magnetic poles
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by SGB - Steve B:
ATP's question about wether or not a similar concept would work with a Gas Giant is interesting since in a traveller scenario a colony around and in a gas giant makes a lot of sense.I'd be curious to know why you think a gas giant colony would make a lot of sense. As an environment it's at least as hostile as a corrosive hellhole - the atmosphere is full of hydrogen that seeps into everything, and if the grav plates holding up the colony fail then everyone plummets to their doom. Also you've got pretty major radiation levels, ridiculously strong winds (usually hurricane-force minimum if a storm comes through) and extreme weather that makes the worst of what we have on Earth look like a light breeze. Plus the generally high gravity makes it more of a pain for ships to enter and leave. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Hydrogen is not especially toxic, the main danger is that of an explosion if it mixes with the breathable air in sufficient quantity. The solution is fairly simple, instead of trying to stop the hydrogen from leaking in, you simply scrub the hydrogen out of the air by forcibly combusting it. If you circulate the air through a compressor, that compresses and heats the air, the trace amounts of hydrogen will combust with free oxygen, decompress the air and the result is air with a little extra water vapor in in more than there was before.
The air you breath is not a lifting gas on Jupiter, so you simply heat hydrogen within the gas bag so that it is less dense than the surrounding hydrogen on the outside. At the temperatures prevalent on Jupiter, the interior gas doesn't have to be especially hot, room temperature would do, and within the hydrogen envelope, you have a much smaller gas bag that contains breathable air, at the same temperature as the warm hydrogen surrounding it The most obvious energy source would be a fusion reactor.
As far as radiation goes, the biggest source of radiation at the one bar atmosphere would be the fusion reactor. The Van Allen belts of Jupiter don't descend very far into the Jovian atmosphere. Where the radiation meets the atmosphere, the charged particles decellerate producing Aurora Borealis near Jupiter's North and South magnetic poles
Space Cadet
February 15th, 2007, 03:11 AM
The thing is, a floating bouyant city is just another kind of space station, the airplanes that fly in the atmosphere are other kinds of space ships. If just happens that to get around in a gas giant's atmosphere, all you really need are portable fusion reactors, they heat the gases in hot hydrogen balloons, and the provide the motive force for jet engines that propel airplanes. Fighter combat would be "Star Wars" like, you have a definite up and down, you can have dog fighting, modern air warfare is mostly about shooting missiles though. Saturn would make a good backdrop, since the gravity is nearly right.
If you like adventuring in the corridors of spaceships and space stations, and you like atmospheric fighter combat, then the atmosphere of a gas giant could be the place for you. You even have weather, it is much the same as space stations and starships though. If you want a more naturalistic setting, Pulp Version of Venus might suit better, as might a truly alien planet orbiting another star.
If you like adventuring in the corridors of spaceships and space stations, and you like atmospheric fighter combat, then the atmosphere of a gas giant could be the place for you. You even have weather, it is much the same as space stations and starships though. If you want a more naturalistic setting, Pulp Version of Venus might suit better, as might a truly alien planet orbiting another star.
sgbrown
February 15th, 2007, 08:42 PM
Originally posted by Space Cadet:
The thing is, a floating bouyant city is just another kind of space station, the airplanes that fly in the atmosphere are other kinds of space ships. If just happens that to get around in a gas giant's atmosphere, all you really need are portable fusion reactors, they heat the gases in hot hydrogen balloons, and the provide the motive force for jet engines that propel airplanes. Fighter combat would be "Star Wars" like, you have a definite up and down, you can have dog fighting, modern air warfare is mostly about shooting missiles though. Saturn would make a good backdrop, since the gravity is nearly right.
If you like adventuring in the corridors of spaceships and space stations, and you like atmospheric fighter combat, then the atmosphere of a gas giant could be the place for you. You even have weather, it is much the same as space stations and starships though. If you want a more naturalistic setting, Pulp Version of Venus might suit better, as might a truly alien planet orbiting another star. I concur - but that's the beauty of traveller - you don't have to stay with one or the other, you can have both.
The thing is, a floating bouyant city is just another kind of space station, the airplanes that fly in the atmosphere are other kinds of space ships. If just happens that to get around in a gas giant's atmosphere, all you really need are portable fusion reactors, they heat the gases in hot hydrogen balloons, and the provide the motive force for jet engines that propel airplanes. Fighter combat would be "Star Wars" like, you have a definite up and down, you can have dog fighting, modern air warfare is mostly about shooting missiles though. Saturn would make a good backdrop, since the gravity is nearly right.
If you like adventuring in the corridors of spaceships and space stations, and you like atmospheric fighter combat, then the atmosphere of a gas giant could be the place for you. You even have weather, it is much the same as space stations and starships though. If you want a more naturalistic setting, Pulp Version of Venus might suit better, as might a truly alien planet orbiting another star. I concur - but that's the beauty of traveller - you don't have to stay with one or the other, you can have both.
Blue Ghost
March 9th, 2007, 12:39 AM
Hunter; I'm still interested in a limited license, but what all will it entail? What I mean by that is if I want to produce "Traveller key chains" or somesuch, can I get a license for that?
Thanks much for any reply.
Thanks much for any reply.
Blue Ghost
March 16th, 2007, 09:10 PM
Whom do I contact to purchase and/or negotiate a license? What kind of contractural limitations are there?
Thanks much.
Thanks much.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét