Jame
October 20th, 2003, 09:29 AM
Okay, so Galanglic is the primary language of Traveller. This means that English was the primary language before it. But what if some other language, like Spanish, French or Chines becomes more important before contact? Or has anyone thought of it?
Ranger
October 20th, 2003, 09:53 AM
A couple of points. Galanglic is the 'common' language of interstellar society. That does not mean it is the primarry language of the imperium, rather that it is the one language that everyone can communicate to each other in. The closest modern example would be India, which has (IRRC) 70 official local languages, but anybody who is anybody in politics or business speaks english, and it is the language of government. All parlimentary business is done in english. In fact, most children of India's elite go to english language schools from a very young age because mastering english is essential for any type of significant success in Indian society.
Second is the issue of why english was chosen as the base communication language. My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future. As it is right now, if you want to do business globally(not just regionally) or if you want to be read academically, you have to work in english.
Having said all of that, there are some Traveller sources that imply or state directly that gallanclic is not widely spoken among the general population on many, if not most, of the world of the Imperium, so traveller may have significan dificulty communicating unassisted outside of the startown/spaceport area in many places.
Second is the issue of why english was chosen as the base communication language. My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future. As it is right now, if you want to do business globally(not just regionally) or if you want to be read academically, you have to work in english.
Having said all of that, there are some Traveller sources that imply or state directly that gallanclic is not widely spoken among the general population on many, if not most, of the world of the Imperium, so traveller may have significan dificulty communicating unassisted outside of the startown/spaceport area in many places.
marginaleye
October 20th, 2003, 01:30 PM
My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future.
Regardless of how powerful and influential the English-speaking Solomani may have been at the beginning of the Second Imperium, they were still vastly outnumbered by the almost infinitely more numerous, and far better-established, Vilani-speaking majority. Some form of Vilani (probably a stripped-down, easily-learned, and painfully un-poetic "pidgin-Vilani") had been the universal language of "space traffic control" for thousands and thousands of years, in thousands and thousands of different star systems. Regardless of how arrogant, energetic, and trigger-happy the conquering Solomani may have been, it's hard to believe that they successfully defeated the sheer inertia of that much linguistic history. After one too many tragic, preventable, and expensive accidents, racial pride would have taken a back seat to logistical necessity. I suspect that "pigin-Vilani" is still the language of the starports and space traffic control, albeit with quite a few recognizable English loan-words. (and, for similar reasons, the old Vilani weights and measures are still in use, not the metric system, which is just a historical curiosity outside of the Solomani Rim).
Regardless of how powerful and influential the English-speaking Solomani may have been at the beginning of the Second Imperium, they were still vastly outnumbered by the almost infinitely more numerous, and far better-established, Vilani-speaking majority. Some form of Vilani (probably a stripped-down, easily-learned, and painfully un-poetic "pidgin-Vilani") had been the universal language of "space traffic control" for thousands and thousands of years, in thousands and thousands of different star systems. Regardless of how arrogant, energetic, and trigger-happy the conquering Solomani may have been, it's hard to believe that they successfully defeated the sheer inertia of that much linguistic history. After one too many tragic, preventable, and expensive accidents, racial pride would have taken a back seat to logistical necessity. I suspect that "pigin-Vilani" is still the language of the starports and space traffic control, albeit with quite a few recognizable English loan-words. (and, for similar reasons, the old Vilani weights and measures are still in use, not the metric system, which is just a historical curiosity outside of the Solomani Rim).
Ranger
October 20th, 2003, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by marginaleye:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future.
Regardless of how powerful and influential the English-speaking Solomani may have been at the beginning of the Second Imperium, they were still vastly outnumbered by the almost infinitely more numerous, and far better-established, Vilani-speaking majority. Some form of Vilani (probably a stripped-down, easily-learned, and painfully un-poetic "pidgin-Vilani") had been the universal language of "space traffic control" for thousands and thousands of years, in thousands and thousands of different star systems. Regardless of how arrogant, energetic, and trigger-happy the conquering Solomani may have been, it's hard to believe that they successfully defeated the sheer inertia of that much linguistic history. After one too many tragic, preventable, and expensive accidents, racial pride would have taken a back seat to logistical necessity. I suspect that "pigin-Vilani" is still the language of the starports and space traffic control, albeit with quite a few recognizable English loan-words. (and, for similar reasons, the old Vilani weights and measures are still in use, not the metric system, which is just a historical curiosity outside of the Solomani Rim). </font>[/QUOTE]A very good point. I think the question is who was the most powerful social faction at the end of the Long Night, when space travel was re-established as a standard part of human life. The indication is that it was the Solomani factions that retained power and it was the Solomani that formed the core of the 3Is founding elements, at least in the military. Vilani merchants families were important economically, but the Solomani dominated the Navy.
IMTU, I use both as common languages, with "Trade Vilani" (a simplified pidgin) as common as Galanglic, but Galanglic still being the official standard. YMMV.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />My understanding is that it is based on english as the international air trafic control language. The assumtion is that this would continue into space. It is hard to change something like that once it is established, as once the institutional framework is in place, it takes at least a generation, and probably more than one, to change over to a new language, so even if another language becomes much more widely used internationally, the safty systems would still use english for some time into the future.
Regardless of how powerful and influential the English-speaking Solomani may have been at the beginning of the Second Imperium, they were still vastly outnumbered by the almost infinitely more numerous, and far better-established, Vilani-speaking majority. Some form of Vilani (probably a stripped-down, easily-learned, and painfully un-poetic "pidgin-Vilani") had been the universal language of "space traffic control" for thousands and thousands of years, in thousands and thousands of different star systems. Regardless of how arrogant, energetic, and trigger-happy the conquering Solomani may have been, it's hard to believe that they successfully defeated the sheer inertia of that much linguistic history. After one too many tragic, preventable, and expensive accidents, racial pride would have taken a back seat to logistical necessity. I suspect that "pigin-Vilani" is still the language of the starports and space traffic control, albeit with quite a few recognizable English loan-words. (and, for similar reasons, the old Vilani weights and measures are still in use, not the metric system, which is just a historical curiosity outside of the Solomani Rim). </font>[/QUOTE]A very good point. I think the question is who was the most powerful social faction at the end of the Long Night, when space travel was re-established as a standard part of human life. The indication is that it was the Solomani factions that retained power and it was the Solomani that formed the core of the 3Is founding elements, at least in the military. Vilani merchants families were important economically, but the Solomani dominated the Navy.
IMTU, I use both as common languages, with "Trade Vilani" (a simplified pidgin) as common as Galanglic, but Galanglic still being the official standard. YMMV.
robject
October 20th, 2003, 04:57 PM
Because I'm a nerd, I like to think about Anglic often. Seems to me that Anglic is going to be like an onion, with lots of layers or crusts (depending on how old that onion is, of course). The major idiomatic crusts I see in 3rd-Imperium (year 1100) Anglic IMTU sort of match the major events in the history of the TU, and go something like this:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Source Language Age of Idioms
------------------ -------------
'Plankwell' Anglic 400 y
'Zhunatsu' Sylean 1000 y
*** Insert Long Night Here! ***
'Ziru Sirka' Vilani 3200 y
'Confederation English' 3400 y
British English 3250 y
Middle English 3750 y
Old English 4250 y</pre>[/QUOTE]Looking at the Long Night, I'm sort of wondering if Sylean is Anglic-based; otherwise why would Anglic survive as The trade language of the Sylean Federation or Zhunatsu Corporation...
Are all those funky T4 world names supposed to be Sylean-derived, like 'Aapas Mi'? They don't quite look Vilani to me. But then, Sylean itself might be strongly influenced by Ziru Sirkaa Vilani too.
I suppose at any rate that Anglic is going to have the same core Anglo-Saxon it always had, only it'll sound more Vilanific, and probably have much of its Norman borrowings replaced with Gutter Vilani or whatever. So expect to see signs like:
Kipaapu dhigiraasu
"Keep-off the-grass"
But rather than
"Trespassers will be prosecuted"
you might instead see
"Niis gara binerii, shushishrug zerra binerii"
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Source Language Age of Idioms
------------------ -------------
'Plankwell' Anglic 400 y
'Zhunatsu' Sylean 1000 y
*** Insert Long Night Here! ***
'Ziru Sirka' Vilani 3200 y
'Confederation English' 3400 y
British English 3250 y
Middle English 3750 y
Old English 4250 y</pre>[/QUOTE]Looking at the Long Night, I'm sort of wondering if Sylean is Anglic-based; otherwise why would Anglic survive as The trade language of the Sylean Federation or Zhunatsu Corporation...
Are all those funky T4 world names supposed to be Sylean-derived, like 'Aapas Mi'? They don't quite look Vilani to me. But then, Sylean itself might be strongly influenced by Ziru Sirkaa Vilani too.
I suppose at any rate that Anglic is going to have the same core Anglo-Saxon it always had, only it'll sound more Vilanific, and probably have much of its Norman borrowings replaced with Gutter Vilani or whatever. So expect to see signs like:
Kipaapu dhigiraasu
"Keep-off the-grass"
But rather than
"Trespassers will be prosecuted"
you might instead see
"Niis gara binerii, shushishrug zerra binerii"
theSea
October 21st, 2003, 02:56 PM
Some thoughts (i.e. another long-winded screed from theSea):
From Library Data (http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/A/anglic.htm):
Anglic, Galanglic
The official language of the Third Imperium.
A distant descendent of Terran English, Anglic was the language of the Rule of Man (-2204 to -1776). The Anglic language remained a common interstellar language for trade and commerce during the Long Night . Its widespread use on the original worlds of the Third Imperium made it a natural selection for the official language when the empire was established.
On many worlds, Anglic is only a second language used for system traffic control, commercial operations, and interstellar communications.
The Imperium has not been able to prevent the emergence of a variety of Anglic dialects. Interstellar communications, holcrystals, and recordings help to spread a uniform pronounciation of Anglic througout the Imperium. Within the Imperium, any Anglic speaker can understand almost any other, but isolated communities on worlds with little contact with the interstellar trade lanes shift their speech patterns to form dialects. Broad areas in the Imperium have established their own pronunciation patterns. Accepted dialects include Rim (which includes Terra ( Sol / Solomani Rim 1827)), Core (in the central region of the Imperium), Riftian (at the spinward frontiers), and Transform (in the Antares region.)
Anglic is sometimes called Galanglic (for Galactic Anglic).So that's the OTU canon. YMMV
I've always thought of Galanglic as the end result of a fusion of Trade Vilani and Old Anglic - much in the same way that Modern English is the fusion of Old English (*much* more like German or Norse) and Norman French that occurred post 1066AD.
In both cases you have an established population speaking one language (Saxons or Vilani) which has a foreign speaking nobility (Norman or Solomani) grafted on top of it. Incidentally, this explains why, when the animal is being tended in the field it is a cow (Germanic word), and when it is on the master's table it is beef (from the French).
The notion that the peoples of a region might adopt (or adapt, if you prefer) the language of their conquerors is not without historical precedence either.... witness the Celtic/Germanic peoples of Iberia and Gaul who adopted/adapted Latin and now speak French and Spanish... i.e. your basic bastardized Latin graemlins/file_22.gif
Whether the 'modern' Galanglic of the 3I is a trade Vilani base with extensive Anglicization or an Anglic base with extensive Vilanification is anybody's guess. It doesn't really matter because in either event Galanglic would be significantly less comprehensible to you and me than Beowulf.
DGP's Vilani & Vargr describes the 3rd Imperium's "Vilani cultural region" (basically the restored Ziru Sirka area in MT) as being an area where most of the planetary inhabitants are culturally and linguistically Vilani. I'm sure one of the first things the restored Ziru Sirka did was to make Vilani their official language, displacing Galanglic.
I would also extrapolate a "Sylean cultural region" which would basically encompass the pre-year 0 boundaries of the Sylean federation where Sylean might be the native language of much of the planetary population... but one should also keep in mind that the Syleans were heavily influenced by the Solomani. Still, there's enough Old High Sylean kicking around for Lucan to demand that it be the only language spoken in his presence.
Old High Sylean is the language spoken by the dominant culture of the human minor race originating on Sylea - now called Capital.
DGP's Solomani & Aslan speaks of a plague which depopulated much of the rimward portion of the old Ziru Sirka - allowing it to be repopulated by Solomani. One can say what one wants about the canonicity of S&A but I find the notion that the Vilani - evolved from their safe germ-free biosphere - getting their collective arses handed to them by various Terran bugs to be very easy to accept.
Notice how many people in the US speak Native American derived tongues? But, in New England at least, many of the place names endure - if only in severely corrupted form. My state's name, Connecticut, is derived from the native word Quinnehtukqut meaning "place of the long river"
Also from both S&A and GT: Rim of Fire comes the notion that many planets in the rimward area of the 3I and much the Solomani sphere are inhabited by peoples who speak a variety of languages descended from non-Anglic Terran tongues. Esperance is a prime example of this - I'm sure the nation of Nuevo Argentina speaks a language very much like Espanol.
And yes, Jame - the whole English ==> Anglic ==> Galanglic progression is called into question by the fact that the Peoples Republic of China now has a manned space program, as opposed to, say, the United States. (That was MILD sarcasm people - no hate mail please!) Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon.
Ranger - I like the India metaphor - very apt!
Robject - you thought *you* were a nerd?
---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature.
From Library Data (http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/ALPHABET/A/anglic.htm):
Anglic, Galanglic
The official language of the Third Imperium.
A distant descendent of Terran English, Anglic was the language of the Rule of Man (-2204 to -1776). The Anglic language remained a common interstellar language for trade and commerce during the Long Night . Its widespread use on the original worlds of the Third Imperium made it a natural selection for the official language when the empire was established.
On many worlds, Anglic is only a second language used for system traffic control, commercial operations, and interstellar communications.
The Imperium has not been able to prevent the emergence of a variety of Anglic dialects. Interstellar communications, holcrystals, and recordings help to spread a uniform pronounciation of Anglic througout the Imperium. Within the Imperium, any Anglic speaker can understand almost any other, but isolated communities on worlds with little contact with the interstellar trade lanes shift their speech patterns to form dialects. Broad areas in the Imperium have established their own pronunciation patterns. Accepted dialects include Rim (which includes Terra ( Sol / Solomani Rim 1827)), Core (in the central region of the Imperium), Riftian (at the spinward frontiers), and Transform (in the Antares region.)
Anglic is sometimes called Galanglic (for Galactic Anglic).So that's the OTU canon. YMMV
I've always thought of Galanglic as the end result of a fusion of Trade Vilani and Old Anglic - much in the same way that Modern English is the fusion of Old English (*much* more like German or Norse) and Norman French that occurred post 1066AD.
In both cases you have an established population speaking one language (Saxons or Vilani) which has a foreign speaking nobility (Norman or Solomani) grafted on top of it. Incidentally, this explains why, when the animal is being tended in the field it is a cow (Germanic word), and when it is on the master's table it is beef (from the French).
The notion that the peoples of a region might adopt (or adapt, if you prefer) the language of their conquerors is not without historical precedence either.... witness the Celtic/Germanic peoples of Iberia and Gaul who adopted/adapted Latin and now speak French and Spanish... i.e. your basic bastardized Latin graemlins/file_22.gif
Whether the 'modern' Galanglic of the 3I is a trade Vilani base with extensive Anglicization or an Anglic base with extensive Vilanification is anybody's guess. It doesn't really matter because in either event Galanglic would be significantly less comprehensible to you and me than Beowulf.
DGP's Vilani & Vargr describes the 3rd Imperium's "Vilani cultural region" (basically the restored Ziru Sirka area in MT) as being an area where most of the planetary inhabitants are culturally and linguistically Vilani. I'm sure one of the first things the restored Ziru Sirka did was to make Vilani their official language, displacing Galanglic.
I would also extrapolate a "Sylean cultural region" which would basically encompass the pre-year 0 boundaries of the Sylean federation where Sylean might be the native language of much of the planetary population... but one should also keep in mind that the Syleans were heavily influenced by the Solomani. Still, there's enough Old High Sylean kicking around for Lucan to demand that it be the only language spoken in his presence.
Old High Sylean is the language spoken by the dominant culture of the human minor race originating on Sylea - now called Capital.
DGP's Solomani & Aslan speaks of a plague which depopulated much of the rimward portion of the old Ziru Sirka - allowing it to be repopulated by Solomani. One can say what one wants about the canonicity of S&A but I find the notion that the Vilani - evolved from their safe germ-free biosphere - getting their collective arses handed to them by various Terran bugs to be very easy to accept.
Notice how many people in the US speak Native American derived tongues? But, in New England at least, many of the place names endure - if only in severely corrupted form. My state's name, Connecticut, is derived from the native word Quinnehtukqut meaning "place of the long river"
Also from both S&A and GT: Rim of Fire comes the notion that many planets in the rimward area of the 3I and much the Solomani sphere are inhabited by peoples who speak a variety of languages descended from non-Anglic Terran tongues. Esperance is a prime example of this - I'm sure the nation of Nuevo Argentina speaks a language very much like Espanol.
And yes, Jame - the whole English ==> Anglic ==> Galanglic progression is called into question by the fact that the Peoples Republic of China now has a manned space program, as opposed to, say, the United States. (That was MILD sarcasm people - no hate mail please!) Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon.
Ranger - I like the India metaphor - very apt!
Robject - you thought *you* were a nerd?
---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature.
jchurchill
October 21st, 2003, 03:21 PM
. My state's name, Connecticut, is derived from the native word Quinnehtukqut meaning "place of the long river"
=================================================
And all this time I thought it was an Indian word meaning "Land of toilet hugging Yalies."
"Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon."
With a population of 1 billion the Chinese probably need the land more than we do. If they find a way to use it all the better for them. If we get the US electric transmission grid and the bridge and highway system brought to competent levels before 2006 maybe then we can tackle the moon. [additional but perhaps not so mild sarcasm]
"---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature."
You have some deep seated grievance against literature? ;)
IMTU the language of trade and the Imperial military is Pig Latin. Easy to learn and full of poetry. Contains all the elegance that an Imperial languange demands.
"Now amscray you little ussypays."
See?
=================================================
And all this time I thought it was an Indian word meaning "Land of toilet hugging Yalies."
"Hopefully the US will get it's astro-fu back together once the PRC lands a few guys on the moon."
With a population of 1 billion the Chinese probably need the land more than we do. If they find a way to use it all the better for them. If we get the US electric transmission grid and the bridge and highway system brought to competent levels before 2006 maybe then we can tackle the moon. [additional but perhaps not so mild sarcasm]
"---Michael
BA English - Univ of Connecticut: I did not get it reading literature."
You have some deep seated grievance against literature? ;)
IMTU the language of trade and the Imperial military is Pig Latin. Easy to learn and full of poetry. Contains all the elegance that an Imperial languange demands.
"Now amscray you little ussypays."
See?
theSea
October 21st, 2003, 05:30 PM
Agent--
Originally posted by secretagent:
And all this time I thought it was an Indian word meaning "Land of toilet hugging Yalies."
I was suprised myself - I always thought it meant "land of ridiculous tax structures." Go figure.
With a population of 1 billion the Chinese probably need the land more than we do. If they find a way to use it all the better for them. If we get the US electric transmission grid and the bridge and highway system brought to competent levels before 2006 maybe then we can tackle the moon. [additional but perhaps not so mild sarcasm]
Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo.
One big problem with this country of late is that we seem to be incapable of playing the long game (witness the condition of our infrastructure - sacrificed to the gods of quaterly profits), a capability at which our neighbors in the east have excelled at for a long time.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
You have some deep seated grievance against literature?
Nope - just a deep and abiding love of the rich history and syntax that is the English language...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far from its roots."
"English does not pick up loan words. It stalks them."
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
IMTU the language of trade and the Imperial military is Pig Latin. Easy to learn and full of poetry. Contains all the elegance that an Imperial languange demands.
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
Originally posted by secretagent:
And all this time I thought it was an Indian word meaning "Land of toilet hugging Yalies."
I was suprised myself - I always thought it meant "land of ridiculous tax structures." Go figure.
With a population of 1 billion the Chinese probably need the land more than we do. If they find a way to use it all the better for them. If we get the US electric transmission grid and the bridge and highway system brought to competent levels before 2006 maybe then we can tackle the moon. [additional but perhaps not so mild sarcasm]
Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo.
One big problem with this country of late is that we seem to be incapable of playing the long game (witness the condition of our infrastructure - sacrificed to the gods of quaterly profits), a capability at which our neighbors in the east have excelled at for a long time.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
You have some deep seated grievance against literature?
Nope - just a deep and abiding love of the rich history and syntax that is the English language...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far from its roots."
"English does not pick up loan words. It stalks them."
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
IMTU the language of trade and the Imperial military is Pig Latin. Easy to learn and full of poetry. Contains all the elegance that an Imperial languange demands.
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
jchurchill
October 21st, 2003, 06:15 PM
I was suprised myself - I always thought it meant "land of ridiculous tax structures." Go figure.
=================================================
graemlins/file_21.gif
"Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo."
No, the Republic of Texas would never forgive you.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
What little culture we have left to defend of course...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far
from its roots."
graemlins/file_21.gif A source for this quoted gem?
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
The Internet has made sure that will never happen. "Loose" has now replaced "lose" so that one can "loose" one's mind and let loose all hell. Well, on second thought that is really a solecism but you know where we are going...
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
My sympathy on the last six months for your family. To better days in the future and a "death holiday".....
=================================================
graemlins/file_21.gif
"Of course, if we'd pressed our early advantage we could easily have built a network of solar power satelites (for far less than the cost of invading Iraq *twice*) to satisfy our lust for energy and would now be holding the high ground in the struggle that's sure to come... but that would not have served certian entrenched interests nearly as well as the current status quo."
No, the Republic of Texas would never forgive you.
Personally, I don't ever want to see my culture trying to win a rock fight from the bottom of a well - but that's just me.
What little culture we have left to defend of course...
"English is a language developed by Normans to pick up Saxon barmaids. It has not strayed far
from its roots."
graemlins/file_21.gif A source for this quoted gem?
Of course I *do* wish they'd regularize the spelling. Whomever "they" are.
The Internet has made sure that will never happen. "Loose" has now replaced "lose" so that one can "loose" one's mind and let loose all hell. Well, on second thought that is really a solecism but you know where we are going...
I tend to pray in pig latin: "Hey God - ixnay on the ethday!"
--michael
Who has buried too many relatives in the last six months.
My sympathy on the last six months for your family. To better days in the future and a "death holiday".....
kaladorn
October 22nd, 2003, 12:36 AM
Originally posted by theSea:
One big problem with this country of late is that we seem to be incapable of playing the long game (witness the condition of our infrastructure - sacrificed to the gods of quaterly profits), a capability at which our neighbors in the east have excelled at for a long time.
At a guess, any country that is a democracy and therefore whose policies have at best a five year lifespan, more likely three, will find it hard to play a game with a twenty, fifty, hundred, or two hundred year outlook. In this one particular, dictatorships (hopefully benign ones, and China probably doesn't meet this categorization...) have a much better ability to look far away. As much as the USA eschews nobility, kings, royals in general, the monarchy was another style of government which could take a long view - divine right and all that.
Democracy (esp if you have recalls!) is fraught with the potential of a leader being pulled down by those who voted him up a short time ago, so he'll govern for popularity, not principal, or he'll be out on his arse shortly thereafter. This is one of the downsides of democracy.
Of course, YMMV, OVW.
One big problem with this country of late is that we seem to be incapable of playing the long game (witness the condition of our infrastructure - sacrificed to the gods of quaterly profits), a capability at which our neighbors in the east have excelled at for a long time.
At a guess, any country that is a democracy and therefore whose policies have at best a five year lifespan, more likely three, will find it hard to play a game with a twenty, fifty, hundred, or two hundred year outlook. In this one particular, dictatorships (hopefully benign ones, and China probably doesn't meet this categorization...) have a much better ability to look far away. As much as the USA eschews nobility, kings, royals in general, the monarchy was another style of government which could take a long view - divine right and all that.
Democracy (esp if you have recalls!) is fraught with the potential of a leader being pulled down by those who voted him up a short time ago, so he'll govern for popularity, not principal, or he'll be out on his arse shortly thereafter. This is one of the downsides of democracy.
Of course, YMMV, OVW.
flykiller
October 22nd, 2003, 01:26 AM
Democracy (esp if you have recalls!) is fraught with the potential of a leader being pulled down by those who voted him up a short time ago, so he'll govern for popularity, not principal, or he'll be out on his arse shortly thereafter. This is one of the downsides of democracy.a "democracy" is only as good as the culture that exercises it, and no better.
the benefits and failures of a dictatorship are volatile, rising and falling with each leader. those of representative government are more robust.
the benefits and failures of a dictatorship are volatile, rising and falling with each leader. those of representative government are more robust.
kaladorn
October 22nd, 2003, 01:57 AM
The benefits of a democracy can arguably be said to rise and fall with the leader. Getting one party into power can lead to a profound shift in the governments approach to fiscal policy, human rights, international relations, the military, and the law.
And as for dictatorships and monarchies being more volatile, I say that a stable monarchy is *less* volatile than a some democracies!
Note: As someone at the middle rank in the food chain, democracy suits me, but I'd probably do okay in an enlightened dictatorship too. The only problem is an englightened dictatorship sometimes becomes a nonenlightened one (Charismatic Dict -> Non Charism Dict, for instance). OTOH, democracy has shown that it can (witness current power level of Canadian PM) closely approximate a dictatorship.
And as for dictatorships and monarchies being more volatile, I say that a stable monarchy is *less* volatile than a some democracies!
Note: As someone at the middle rank in the food chain, democracy suits me, but I'd probably do okay in an enlightened dictatorship too. The only problem is an englightened dictatorship sometimes becomes a nonenlightened one (Charismatic Dict -> Non Charism Dict, for instance). OTOH, democracy has shown that it can (witness current power level of Canadian PM) closely approximate a dictatorship.
Andrew Boulton
October 22nd, 2003, 09:19 AM
"Not only does the English Language borrow words from other languages, it sometimes chases them down dark alleys, hits them over the head, and goes through their pockets." - Eddy Peters
Madarin Dude
October 22nd, 2003, 09:25 AM
In my traveller universe the solimani use pictograms and speak a cobination of Chinese with some English and Japanese words thrown in for good measure. The latin alphabit is used often but the pictograms remain. Asian features are proof of solomani origin. The Vilani do't have that race and neither do the Zhodani.
Villani net sites ahve pictures of hot babes of the solomani rim; but I digress
Villani net sites ahve pictures of hot babes of the solomani rim; but I digress
Drakon
October 22nd, 2003, 09:31 AM
There is one reason why you see, say Indians studying English, and air traffic control speaking the same language. Language is one of those things that suffer the "network effect"
If only you own a telephone, that ain't worth a whole lot. You could call yourself, but why do you need a telephone to do that? Yet the more folks that have phones, the more valuable, useful each phone is to each of its individual users.
Languages are like that. Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth. More people speak it a either a first or second language, and because they do, they can talk to more people, than those in any other language group.
If only you own a telephone, that ain't worth a whole lot. You could call yourself, but why do you need a telephone to do that? Yet the more folks that have phones, the more valuable, useful each phone is to each of its individual users.
Languages are like that. Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth. More people speak it a either a first or second language, and because they do, they can talk to more people, than those in any other language group.
PapaGolfWhiskey
October 22nd, 2003, 10:09 AM
And it's not just numbers.
There may be more numbers of people who speak... oh.. Mandarin Chinese.
But most corporate heads, goverment officials (all air traffic controllers), and... I think even the President sometimes refered to as the 'leader of the free world' all speak english.
There may be more numbers of people who speak... oh.. Mandarin Chinese.
But most corporate heads, goverment officials (all air traffic controllers), and... I think even the President sometimes refered to as the 'leader of the free world' all speak english.
robject
October 22nd, 2003, 10:49 AM
Yow, there's lots of energy in this thread yet.
IMTU IMTU IMTU
Like the Mycenaean Greeks, the Solomani scooped up the remnants of the fallen 'Minoan Empire', adapted their writing system (Linear A -> Linear B et al), beefed up their vocabulary with all those administrative, technical, and nominative Minoan words, and proceeded to slide gracelessly into the Long Night.
Thus Anglic's core is Anglo-Saxon (hence the name), and retains its roots, but pronunciation and orthography has changed, plus it has imported Vilani and Sylean idiom, more or less according to stellar location.
For example, words that were used for planetary purposes but could be seen to have an interstellar component to them, such as "import", could become quaint or archaic. So the Vilani word for "import" (something like "dinnisha") would be borrowed into Anglic and the English word would pass into disuse.
("Now, when the English said 'import', they meant something like dinnisha, but being simple barbarians, they could only conceive of it on a local, planetary scale.")
One important thing I have decided, by the posts on this thread: the Vilani-derived alphabet is widely used, while the Latin alphabet is not commonly used.
IMTU IMTU IMTU
Like the Mycenaean Greeks, the Solomani scooped up the remnants of the fallen 'Minoan Empire', adapted their writing system (Linear A -> Linear B et al), beefed up their vocabulary with all those administrative, technical, and nominative Minoan words, and proceeded to slide gracelessly into the Long Night.
Thus Anglic's core is Anglo-Saxon (hence the name), and retains its roots, but pronunciation and orthography has changed, plus it has imported Vilani and Sylean idiom, more or less according to stellar location.
For example, words that were used for planetary purposes but could be seen to have an interstellar component to them, such as "import", could become quaint or archaic. So the Vilani word for "import" (something like "dinnisha") would be borrowed into Anglic and the English word would pass into disuse.
("Now, when the English said 'import', they meant something like dinnisha, but being simple barbarians, they could only conceive of it on a local, planetary scale.")
One important thing I have decided, by the posts on this thread: the Vilani-derived alphabet is widely used, while the Latin alphabet is not commonly used.
robject
October 22nd, 2003, 10:54 AM
I've been cruising through what's left of the TLDL, and there's a lot of good material, but scattered throughout dozens and dozens of digests. Unless someone is maintaining a Vilani Language site, I'm thinking I ought to collate and gather Kenji's stuff together and put it up on Downport.com.
theSea
October 22nd, 2003, 12:16 PM
With apologies for the continued hijacking of this thread.....
Originally posted by kaladorn:
At a guess, any country that is a democracy and therefore whose policies have at best a five year lifespan, more likely three, will find it hard to play a game with a twenty, fifty, hundred, or two hundred year outlook. In this one particular, dictatorships (hopefully benign ones, and China probably doesn't meet this categorization...) have a much better ability to look far away. As much as the USA eschews nobility, kings, royals in general, the monarchy was another style of government which could take a long view - divine right and all that.
Oh, I've been saying that for years... the problem arises in ensuring that the nobility maintains an understanding that their privaleges are paid for in responsibilities.
This is one of the things that attracts me to the OTU and also something that I thought was well expressed in Niven and Pournelle's The Mote In Gods Eye. I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.
I've recently come to the conclusion that a five year outlook in today's society is becoming increasingly rare - anyone who can see past the next quarter is a freakin' visionary these days <shudder>.
Definitely a tough time to be a crusty old Heinlienist libertarian.
As I see it, the fundamental conflict between East and West is and has always been individualism verses collectivism. Since neither side seems to be able to take a 'live and let live' policy towards the other it seems we are destined to struggle.
I also see an analogue of this struggle in the interstellar wars and ongoing cultural conflict between the 'traditionalist, concensus driven' Vilani and those Solomani 'Yanks in space' types. Note that while the Solomani seem to triumph in the Nth interstellar war, they also bite off far more than they can chew and the Rule of Man eventually falls into a thousand years of chaos. Archtypical - but you'll notice that the struggle continues well into the 3rd Imperium.
As a product of Western culture (and we *do* still have a culture - despite the best efforts of Jerry Springer, McDonalds, the RIAA and 'Reality Television' to the contrary) I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone. I also realize that I'm in the minority on both sides in that respect. It seems a vast majority of my fellow humans have a deep seated need to see their point of view validated by universal adoption.
But if it comes down to a rockfight - I'd prefer my side be the ones standing at the top of the well. Heinlien said that mankind will go to the stars - but there is no guarentee that the language spoken there will be English. I beg no excuse for wanting the stars for me and mine.
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Democracy (esp if you have recalls!) is fraught with the potential of a leader being pulled down by those who voted him up a short time ago, so he'll govern for popularity, not principal, or he'll be out on his arse shortly thereafter. This is one of the downsides of democracy. Which is why the U.S. founding fathers gave us a Republic - if we can keep it. (The Peoples Republic of) California is a prime example of both the upsides and downsides of 'pure' democracy. When The People vote themselves tax relief - tax relief they shall get, whatever the cost. When The People vote in term limitations for their representitives - term limits they shall get... and government by amatures for good or ill.
I think Pournelle aptly sums up the problems with Democracy on his website (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2view/view193.html):
...if you are going to live in a liberal democracy, certain things are certain. One is that the franchise will expand to include as many as possible. Another is that the people will vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. You can try to slow that process... ...but you will not halt it.
I've tried to keep this somewhat on topic - but if anyone feels the need to take it to PM or Random Static - that's cool too.
--michael
Originally posted by kaladorn:
At a guess, any country that is a democracy and therefore whose policies have at best a five year lifespan, more likely three, will find it hard to play a game with a twenty, fifty, hundred, or two hundred year outlook. In this one particular, dictatorships (hopefully benign ones, and China probably doesn't meet this categorization...) have a much better ability to look far away. As much as the USA eschews nobility, kings, royals in general, the monarchy was another style of government which could take a long view - divine right and all that.
Oh, I've been saying that for years... the problem arises in ensuring that the nobility maintains an understanding that their privaleges are paid for in responsibilities.
This is one of the things that attracts me to the OTU and also something that I thought was well expressed in Niven and Pournelle's The Mote In Gods Eye. I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.
I've recently come to the conclusion that a five year outlook in today's society is becoming increasingly rare - anyone who can see past the next quarter is a freakin' visionary these days <shudder>.
Definitely a tough time to be a crusty old Heinlienist libertarian.
As I see it, the fundamental conflict between East and West is and has always been individualism verses collectivism. Since neither side seems to be able to take a 'live and let live' policy towards the other it seems we are destined to struggle.
I also see an analogue of this struggle in the interstellar wars and ongoing cultural conflict between the 'traditionalist, concensus driven' Vilani and those Solomani 'Yanks in space' types. Note that while the Solomani seem to triumph in the Nth interstellar war, they also bite off far more than they can chew and the Rule of Man eventually falls into a thousand years of chaos. Archtypical - but you'll notice that the struggle continues well into the 3rd Imperium.
As a product of Western culture (and we *do* still have a culture - despite the best efforts of Jerry Springer, McDonalds, the RIAA and 'Reality Television' to the contrary) I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone. I also realize that I'm in the minority on both sides in that respect. It seems a vast majority of my fellow humans have a deep seated need to see their point of view validated by universal adoption.
But if it comes down to a rockfight - I'd prefer my side be the ones standing at the top of the well. Heinlien said that mankind will go to the stars - but there is no guarentee that the language spoken there will be English. I beg no excuse for wanting the stars for me and mine.
Originally posted by kaladorn:
Democracy (esp if you have recalls!) is fraught with the potential of a leader being pulled down by those who voted him up a short time ago, so he'll govern for popularity, not principal, or he'll be out on his arse shortly thereafter. This is one of the downsides of democracy. Which is why the U.S. founding fathers gave us a Republic - if we can keep it. (The Peoples Republic of) California is a prime example of both the upsides and downsides of 'pure' democracy. When The People vote themselves tax relief - tax relief they shall get, whatever the cost. When The People vote in term limitations for their representitives - term limits they shall get... and government by amatures for good or ill.
I think Pournelle aptly sums up the problems with Democracy on his website (http://www.jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2view/view193.html):
...if you are going to live in a liberal democracy, certain things are certain. One is that the franchise will expand to include as many as possible. Another is that the people will vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. You can try to slow that process... ...but you will not halt it.
I've tried to keep this somewhat on topic - but if anyone feels the need to take it to PM or Random Static - that's cool too.
--michael
Jame
October 22nd, 2003, 12:37 PM
Since I'm the one who started all this, I should contribute a bit more. (Pauses, sighs.) Naetheless (Hey, Chaucer! Thanks for a word!), I do have a question. Now, I know that there "was" a Sylean Federation, and that there "is" a Sylea. But I did not know, at least conclusively, that Sylean was a language as such. What can you (generically, collectively, all together and forgive my ramble) tell me about it, and why, if 'twas the Federation language, how come it's not the major language?
Also, what is the RIAA?
Also, what is the RIAA?
theSea
October 22nd, 2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Madarin Dude:
In my traveller universe the solimani use pictograms and speak a cobination of Chinese with some English and Japanese words thrown in for good measure. The latin alphabit is used often but the pictograms remain.
linguistically, probably a very realistic approach. Again - I'm convinced that the language of interstellar civilization will probably be dominated by the first to get there - witness the popularity of Spanish and Portugese in the New World. But I wouldn't discount the power of an ambitious johnny-come-lately either (he said in somewhat bastardized British).
I do think that some form of constructive writing system (like the latin alphabet) is eventually going to displace the ideographic systems (like Chinese) through sheer force of simplicity and flexability - in much the same way that the Arabic number system has pushed out the Roman in all but the most formalized usage. Spelling vagriencies aside - it's just much easier to learn and use some 26 characters to construct words than to learn several hundred unique pictographs.
In the OTU this probably would lead to the adoption of the Vilani alphabet as a palatable comprimise.
One of the things I thought was cool about Firefly was the way they snuck the Mandarin in here and there... and the more industrial settings were notably 'Asian-ised.'
I've always enjoyed Western Science Fiction that is smart enough to realize that Western Europeans are not the only players in the game.
Asian features are proof of solomani origin. The Vilani do't have that race and neither do the Zhodani.Hmmmm... you're probably right on the Asian features - genetics being what it is and the numbers being what they are. We may yet see the complete extinction of non-brown eyes in the human population... long after I'm gone. But I doubt it will be that difficult to distinguish between *any* of the various major and minor human races - the genetic drift and evolutionary pressures will be much greater for populations that have been completely isolated in a different bioshpere for a hundred thousand plus years than any differences we've cooked up on Terra lately.
The distictions will be obvious.
Just my cr0.02 - your milage (kilometrage?) may, and should, vary.
--michael
In my traveller universe the solimani use pictograms and speak a cobination of Chinese with some English and Japanese words thrown in for good measure. The latin alphabit is used often but the pictograms remain.
linguistically, probably a very realistic approach. Again - I'm convinced that the language of interstellar civilization will probably be dominated by the first to get there - witness the popularity of Spanish and Portugese in the New World. But I wouldn't discount the power of an ambitious johnny-come-lately either (he said in somewhat bastardized British).
I do think that some form of constructive writing system (like the latin alphabet) is eventually going to displace the ideographic systems (like Chinese) through sheer force of simplicity and flexability - in much the same way that the Arabic number system has pushed out the Roman in all but the most formalized usage. Spelling vagriencies aside - it's just much easier to learn and use some 26 characters to construct words than to learn several hundred unique pictographs.
In the OTU this probably would lead to the adoption of the Vilani alphabet as a palatable comprimise.
One of the things I thought was cool about Firefly was the way they snuck the Mandarin in here and there... and the more industrial settings were notably 'Asian-ised.'
I've always enjoyed Western Science Fiction that is smart enough to realize that Western Europeans are not the only players in the game.
Asian features are proof of solomani origin. The Vilani do't have that race and neither do the Zhodani.Hmmmm... you're probably right on the Asian features - genetics being what it is and the numbers being what they are. We may yet see the complete extinction of non-brown eyes in the human population... long after I'm gone. But I doubt it will be that difficult to distinguish between *any* of the various major and minor human races - the genetic drift and evolutionary pressures will be much greater for populations that have been completely isolated in a different bioshpere for a hundred thousand plus years than any differences we've cooked up on Terra lately.
The distictions will be obvious.
Just my cr0.02 - your milage (kilometrage?) may, and should, vary.
--michael
theSea
October 22nd, 2003, 12:48 PM
Originally posted by Jame:
I know that there "was" a Sylean Federation, and that there "is" a Sylea. But I did not know, at least conclusively, that Sylean was a language as such. What can you (generically, collectively, all together and forgive my ramble) tell me about it, and why, if 'twas the Federation language, how come it's not the major language?
Nearest I can tell- the Sylean Federation was ruled by a heavily 'Solomani-ized' nobility dating back to the rule of man. Anglic would have been the language of court (much as French was for many many years), trade and diplomacy. This would not stop Sylean speaking peoples from migrating, settling and continuing to speak Sylean while doing so.
Although I don't have it yet, I think more information on this subject can be found in GT:Humaniti which has a section on Sylea. Also I seem to recall that the T4 sourcebook Milleaux 0 has more information in this regard.
Also, what is the RIAA? The Recording Industry Artists Association - i.e. the band of thieves that has been ripping musicians off for decades and is now trying to defend their obsolete music distribution model by claiming to protect those self-same artists. But that's another topic thaat I'll gladly address in Random Static.
Respectfully,
--michael
I know that there "was" a Sylean Federation, and that there "is" a Sylea. But I did not know, at least conclusively, that Sylean was a language as such. What can you (generically, collectively, all together and forgive my ramble) tell me about it, and why, if 'twas the Federation language, how come it's not the major language?
Nearest I can tell- the Sylean Federation was ruled by a heavily 'Solomani-ized' nobility dating back to the rule of man. Anglic would have been the language of court (much as French was for many many years), trade and diplomacy. This would not stop Sylean speaking peoples from migrating, settling and continuing to speak Sylean while doing so.
Although I don't have it yet, I think more information on this subject can be found in GT:Humaniti which has a section on Sylea. Also I seem to recall that the T4 sourcebook Milleaux 0 has more information in this regard.
Also, what is the RIAA? The Recording Industry Artists Association - i.e. the band of thieves that has been ripping musicians off for decades and is now trying to defend their obsolete music distribution model by claiming to protect those self-same artists. But that's another topic thaat I'll gladly address in Random Static.
Respectfully,
--michael
theSea
October 22nd, 2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by Drakon:
Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth.I have to suppress a giggle everytime I see a phrase like this - English being the <Latin phrase used to express the concept of a universal language using French as an example>. I'm sure it gives le ministère de la culture et de la communication apoplexy every time they see it.
Which is why English is right now the "lingua Franca" of Earth.I have to suppress a giggle everytime I see a phrase like this - English being the <Latin phrase used to express the concept of a universal language using French as an example>. I'm sure it gives le ministère de la culture et de la communication apoplexy every time they see it.
Whipsnade
October 22nd, 2003, 01:37 PM
Gentlemen,
English is Earth's current lingua franca (I giggle too, theSea) for several reasons. Yes, the technical, scientific, and military ascendency of Anglophone peoples and nations has something to do with it, as does the number of previously Anglophone-ruled colonial regions who've adopted English as a common tongue; India, Nigeria, South Africa, etc.
However, IMHO, there are three other reasons that heavily tip the scales in English's favor:
- The 'hybrid' or 'mongrel' vigor of the English language.
- The lack of any official body legally mandated to rule on 'proper' English usage.
- The ease with which poorly spoken English is still understandable.
English is a super pidgin. Loan words from Latin to Hindu to Choctaw to Cantonese pepper it. The English vocabulary is always growing, changing, morphing to meet new needs and demands. English grows organically, unoffically, and instantly to meet the needs of its speakers.
It took the Academie Francais a decade to agree on the 'proper' French noun to describe 'CD-ROM'. English simply invented the word on the fly and its version is used worldwide, even in France despite what the doddering old footdraggers of The Academie would have. French isn't the only language saddled with this official baggage. A recent proposal to change German grammar caused a great outcry it that nation.
Lexicographers working with English are worried that they won't find all the English words and usages currently in practice while lexicographers in other languages are worried about determining what is 'proper' or 'correct'. That is one reason why English, and what ever it evolves into, will live on. English is being used, not dissected on a chalkboard or frozen in the amber of official academic scrutiny like some linguistic fossil.
English can be spoken poorly; or perhaps a better description would be spoken in a non-standard manner, and the meaning will still come across. Many languages are heavily tonal; China's various languages are an example, and anyone with hearing loss; like myself, will never become fluent enough to be fully understood. Other languages suffer from 'snobbishness'. Speak high school French in Quebec or Paris and you'll see what I mean. Speak Castillan Spanish in Mexico or Mexican Spanish in Madrid and you'll see the same reaction.
English is kudzu ( a Japanese loan word), that fast growing vine that overwhelms native vegatation. English lives and grows every day, on its own and not by the leave of some official body. English is accessible to the speakers of a hundred other tongues. They can find words in English they recognize and can speak it poorly with too much fear of snobbish reaction.
Sincerely,
Larsen
English is Earth's current lingua franca (I giggle too, theSea) for several reasons. Yes, the technical, scientific, and military ascendency of Anglophone peoples and nations has something to do with it, as does the number of previously Anglophone-ruled colonial regions who've adopted English as a common tongue; India, Nigeria, South Africa, etc.
However, IMHO, there are three other reasons that heavily tip the scales in English's favor:
- The 'hybrid' or 'mongrel' vigor of the English language.
- The lack of any official body legally mandated to rule on 'proper' English usage.
- The ease with which poorly spoken English is still understandable.
English is a super pidgin. Loan words from Latin to Hindu to Choctaw to Cantonese pepper it. The English vocabulary is always growing, changing, morphing to meet new needs and demands. English grows organically, unoffically, and instantly to meet the needs of its speakers.
It took the Academie Francais a decade to agree on the 'proper' French noun to describe 'CD-ROM'. English simply invented the word on the fly and its version is used worldwide, even in France despite what the doddering old footdraggers of The Academie would have. French isn't the only language saddled with this official baggage. A recent proposal to change German grammar caused a great outcry it that nation.
Lexicographers working with English are worried that they won't find all the English words and usages currently in practice while lexicographers in other languages are worried about determining what is 'proper' or 'correct'. That is one reason why English, and what ever it evolves into, will live on. English is being used, not dissected on a chalkboard or frozen in the amber of official academic scrutiny like some linguistic fossil.
English can be spoken poorly; or perhaps a better description would be spoken in a non-standard manner, and the meaning will still come across. Many languages are heavily tonal; China's various languages are an example, and anyone with hearing loss; like myself, will never become fluent enough to be fully understood. Other languages suffer from 'snobbishness'. Speak high school French in Quebec or Paris and you'll see what I mean. Speak Castillan Spanish in Mexico or Mexican Spanish in Madrid and you'll see the same reaction.
English is kudzu ( a Japanese loan word), that fast growing vine that overwhelms native vegatation. English lives and grows every day, on its own and not by the leave of some official body. English is accessible to the speakers of a hundred other tongues. They can find words in English they recognize and can speak it poorly with too much fear of snobbish reaction.
Sincerely,
Larsen
robject
October 23rd, 2003, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by theSea:
With apologies for the continued hijacking of this thread.....
I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.
Assuming we can solve the problems that come with heredity. Does England currently work this way?
I recall that U.S. senators were originally chosen by the state governments, not by popular election. This was probably a Good Thing, and we probably ought to return to it.
I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone.
I think this is a sentiment of many people.
With apologies for the continued hijacking of this thread.....
I think a constitutional Monarchy can be made to work - complete with hereditary nobility... so long as the rights of the Yeoman are fiercely protected, there is some mechanism for holding the nobility accountable and there is a path for the most talented and capable commoners to be elevated to the nobility.
Assuming we can solve the problems that come with heredity. Does England currently work this way?
I recall that U.S. senators were originally chosen by the state governments, not by popular election. This was probably a Good Thing, and we probably ought to return to it.
I find myself in favor of individualism - although I'm willing to leave collectivist societies alone so long as they leave us alone.
I think this is a sentiment of many people.
robject
October 23rd, 2003, 09:09 AM
Okay, with the fuel of Mr. LEW and theSea, I'm interested in the kind of idiomatic expressions that could be borrowed into Anglic from Vilani. Of course there's all the interstellar relationships and high tech, but that's not all that will migrate in, eh wot?
What kind of concepts in Traveller could use a good loan word or phrase?
* Jumpspace
* a Jump-1 main
* Free-trading along a low-jump Main
* arriving at/crossing an X-boat route
* the misfortune of owning goods which are currently trading at an exceptionally low price
* the fortune of owning goods which are trading at a very high price
* a mercenary ticket of dubious value
* a world likely to imprison you for just being different
Note: the Vilani Lexicon implies that the jump drive has a rather dark, religious significance to the Vilani: the jump drive is ganiirii, whose roots could be related to /gan/ from /ganzir/, "[the] Eye, pit of the Underworld", and /irii/, "night".
What kind of concepts in Traveller could use a good loan word or phrase?
* Jumpspace
* a Jump-1 main
* Free-trading along a low-jump Main
* arriving at/crossing an X-boat route
* the misfortune of owning goods which are currently trading at an exceptionally low price
* the fortune of owning goods which are trading at a very high price
* a mercenary ticket of dubious value
* a world likely to imprison you for just being different
Note: the Vilani Lexicon implies that the jump drive has a rather dark, religious significance to the Vilani: the jump drive is ganiirii, whose roots could be related to /gan/ from /ganzir/, "[the] Eye, pit of the Underworld", and /irii/, "night".
jchurchill
October 23rd, 2003, 09:28 AM
I recall that U.S. senators were originally chosen by the state governments, not by popular election. This was probably a Good Thing, and we probably ought to return to it.
================================================
You are correct that prior to 1912 or so [I can't recall the exact date] US senators were chosen by the state governor but it tended to give one political party complete control over an entire state in an unhealthy way and by the 1890's the US senate was seen as a pawn of railroad and banking trusts. The general quality of US senator was probably not that much better than it was post 1912 or 1913.
The question is whether you want your Senators chosen by the great ignorant unwashed rabble or by a small select group of party hacks and dealmakers. Tough choice.
================================================
You are correct that prior to 1912 or so [I can't recall the exact date] US senators were chosen by the state governor but it tended to give one political party complete control over an entire state in an unhealthy way and by the 1890's the US senate was seen as a pawn of railroad and banking trusts. The general quality of US senator was probably not that much better than it was post 1912 or 1913.
The question is whether you want your Senators chosen by the great ignorant unwashed rabble or by a small select group of party hacks and dealmakers. Tough choice.
robject
October 23rd, 2003, 09:41 AM
As always, the solution to populism vs elitism is probably in a compromise, complete with checks and balances.
In Traveller, the compromise is membership in the Imperium, granting power to nobility, in exchange for protection, market access, and a proportional, collective representation in the Moot? In addition, most worlds probably have a pretty free hand in how they manage their affairs.
In Traveller, the compromise is membership in the Imperium, granting power to nobility, in exchange for protection, market access, and a proportional, collective representation in the Moot? In addition, most worlds probably have a pretty free hand in how they manage their affairs.
theSea
October 23rd, 2003, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by robject:
Okay, with the fuel of Mr. LEW and theSea, I'm interested in the kind of idiomatic expressions that could be borrowed into Anglic from Vilani.
Interesting thought to be sure....
* Jumpspace
* a Jump-1 main
* Free-trading along a low-jump Main
* the misfortune of owning goods which are currently trading at an exceptionally low price
* the fortune of owning goods which are trading at a very high price
* a mercenary ticket of dubious value
I like those - all concepts sure to be rooted in Vilani culture.
* a world likely to imprison you for just being different
Vilani being such dyed in the wool conformists - the word for this probably equates to 'normal.'
* arriving at/crossing an X-boat route
X Boats being a 3I concept - that's a questionable one. Arriving at/crossing a trade nexus of some kind would be more likey...
In fact they probably have an idiomatic expression for "world where two J1 mains meet or cross" which would either be a form of the name for the first such location, an archaic expression for 'meeting of two paths' or something weirdly idiomatic like our 'chokepoint.'
Vilani terms and loanwords would probably be standard in business and commerce. Everything from grey market words like "juice," "squeeze" and "grease" (note how these English words for bribe money are completely metaphoric), "kickback," "fence" etc. to organizational terms like "district manager," "second assistant vice president," and "board of directors." Heck the Vilani probably have different words for 'inflation caused by scarcity of goods' and 'inflation caused by by an overabundabnce of currency.'
Social terms like "consensus," "dissent" and "person who refuses to change his opinion when the group has decided otherwise" (i.e. misfit) would also tend to be adopted as they reflect ideas that would be particularly apt in Vilani.
Incidentally- I've wondered what the Vilani word for 'Gas Giant' is, since there doesn't seem to be one in the Vland system...
No doubt many Vilani cooking terms would have made their way into Anglic - but I would also think that Terran cusine would take the Vilani by storm... after all humans are built to enjoy Terran agricultural and meat products.... a far cry from whatever the Shugilli managed to adapt for human consumption. In fact, the Terrans may have conquered the Ziru Sirka through the power of a good marinara sauce alone ;)
Just a little riffing... I'm sure others will pick up the theme.
Okay, with the fuel of Mr. LEW and theSea, I'm interested in the kind of idiomatic expressions that could be borrowed into Anglic from Vilani.
Interesting thought to be sure....
* Jumpspace
* a Jump-1 main
* Free-trading along a low-jump Main
* the misfortune of owning goods which are currently trading at an exceptionally low price
* the fortune of owning goods which are trading at a very high price
* a mercenary ticket of dubious value
I like those - all concepts sure to be rooted in Vilani culture.
* a world likely to imprison you for just being different
Vilani being such dyed in the wool conformists - the word for this probably equates to 'normal.'
* arriving at/crossing an X-boat route
X Boats being a 3I concept - that's a questionable one. Arriving at/crossing a trade nexus of some kind would be more likey...
In fact they probably have an idiomatic expression for "world where two J1 mains meet or cross" which would either be a form of the name for the first such location, an archaic expression for 'meeting of two paths' or something weirdly idiomatic like our 'chokepoint.'
Vilani terms and loanwords would probably be standard in business and commerce. Everything from grey market words like "juice," "squeeze" and "grease" (note how these English words for bribe money are completely metaphoric), "kickback," "fence" etc. to organizational terms like "district manager," "second assistant vice president," and "board of directors." Heck the Vilani probably have different words for 'inflation caused by scarcity of goods' and 'inflation caused by by an overabundabnce of currency.'
Social terms like "consensus," "dissent" and "person who refuses to change his opinion when the group has decided otherwise" (i.e. misfit) would also tend to be adopted as they reflect ideas that would be particularly apt in Vilani.
Incidentally- I've wondered what the Vilani word for 'Gas Giant' is, since there doesn't seem to be one in the Vland system...
No doubt many Vilani cooking terms would have made their way into Anglic - but I would also think that Terran cusine would take the Vilani by storm... after all humans are built to enjoy Terran agricultural and meat products.... a far cry from whatever the Shugilli managed to adapt for human consumption. In fact, the Terrans may have conquered the Ziru Sirka through the power of a good marinara sauce alone ;)
Just a little riffing... I'm sure others will pick up the theme.
theSea
October 23rd, 2003, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by secretagent:
The question is whether you want your Senators chosen by the great ignorant unwashed rabble or by a small select group of party hacks and dealmakers. Tough choice. If I recall corretly - the original intent was that the Senate represent the States while the House was to represent the People.
Of course, this was a notion developed by the same group that spelled out a very explicit list of Federal powers and wrote to the effect that 'anything not mentioned here is the providence of the States.'
Once the power had shifted decisively away from the States and to the Federal government in the post Civil War era the populists had no troule getting that changed... I'm still trying to figure out how a Federal Appeals Court gained jurisdiction over a California Governor's election. If one reads the Constitution one would think that it should be regarded as a strictly internal matter to be settled by the California Supreme Court. But in a nation where growing a pot plant in one's back yard falls under the jurisdiction of inter-state commerce, I guess anything is possible.
obTrav - the Imperium says it does not interfere in the local affairs of member worlds except under certian conditions (mostly WMD) but is this really the case? Control over what crosses the XT line at the spaceport must give the local Imperial authorities termendous power over who rises, who falls, who wins the wars and who loses. Hold the right shipment of Tac missiles in customs for a few extra days and regeime change can be rather subltly accomplished.
--michael
The question is whether you want your Senators chosen by the great ignorant unwashed rabble or by a small select group of party hacks and dealmakers. Tough choice. If I recall corretly - the original intent was that the Senate represent the States while the House was to represent the People.
Of course, this was a notion developed by the same group that spelled out a very explicit list of Federal powers and wrote to the effect that 'anything not mentioned here is the providence of the States.'
Once the power had shifted decisively away from the States and to the Federal government in the post Civil War era the populists had no troule getting that changed... I'm still trying to figure out how a Federal Appeals Court gained jurisdiction over a California Governor's election. If one reads the Constitution one would think that it should be regarded as a strictly internal matter to be settled by the California Supreme Court. But in a nation where growing a pot plant in one's back yard falls under the jurisdiction of inter-state commerce, I guess anything is possible.
obTrav - the Imperium says it does not interfere in the local affairs of member worlds except under certian conditions (mostly WMD) but is this really the case? Control over what crosses the XT line at the spaceport must give the local Imperial authorities termendous power over who rises, who falls, who wins the wars and who loses. Hold the right shipment of Tac missiles in customs for a few extra days and regeime change can be rather subltly accomplished.
--michael
jchurchill
October 23rd, 2003, 11:25 AM
If I recall corretly - the original intent was that the Senate represent the States while the House was to represent the People.
-------------------------------------------------
Absolutely.
Of course, this was a notion developed by the same group that spelled out a very explicit list of Federal powers and wrote to the effect that 'anything not mentioned here is the providence of the States.'
-----------------------------------------------
Well, yes but that group was noted for its waggish sense of humor. They were a little crocked on Madeira when they wrote this stuff.
Partying like it was 1799...
I'm still trying to figure out how a Federal Appeals Court gained jurisdiction over a California Governor's election.
-----------------------------------------------
Federal due process I'd guess ---I did not read the pleadings but that is my semi-educated guess.
If one reads the Constitution one would think that it should be regarded as a strictly internal matter to be settled by the California Supreme Court.
-------------------------------------------------
You have to stop reading the Constitution. It will only confuse matters...
But in a nation where growing a pot plant in one's back yard falls under the jurisdiction of inter-state commerce, I guess anything is possible.
------------------------------------------------
Because someday that pot may be sold in interstate commerce. There is a popular warhorse of a case in con. law textbooks called US v. Wicker [or Whicker...it's been 11 years since I had to read it] (1943) where a man growing wheat in his backyard to avoid food rationing ran afoul of the Commerce Clause. The more famous case is the Ollie's Barbeque case where the S. Ct. found that a barbeque place in Alabama could not discriminate racially because it was involved [not really] in interstate commerce.
obTrav - the Imperium says it does not interfere in the local affairs of member worlds except under certian conditions (mostly WMD) but is this really the case?
==============================================
No, of course not. As the Minisrty of INformation might say-- who are you going to beleive? Us or your own two eyes? [Unless you have more than two eyes]
Control over what crosses the XT line at the spaceport must give the local Imperial authorities termendous power over who rises, who falls, who wins the wars and who loses. Hold the right shipment of Tac missiles in customs for a few extra days and regeime change can be rather subltly accomplished.
================================================
I agree. Particularly troublesome local goverments can be dealt with in ways more subtle than A fleet arriving and Marines landing to seize GovernmentHouse. [Although that is a more direct method --- just ask Haiti,[1915] Nicaragua,[1920's] Honduras, [1930's] Lebanon [1965, 1983]
-------------------------------------------------
Absolutely.
Of course, this was a notion developed by the same group that spelled out a very explicit list of Federal powers and wrote to the effect that 'anything not mentioned here is the providence of the States.'
-----------------------------------------------
Well, yes but that group was noted for its waggish sense of humor. They were a little crocked on Madeira when they wrote this stuff.
Partying like it was 1799...
I'm still trying to figure out how a Federal Appeals Court gained jurisdiction over a California Governor's election.
-----------------------------------------------
Federal due process I'd guess ---I did not read the pleadings but that is my semi-educated guess.
If one reads the Constitution one would think that it should be regarded as a strictly internal matter to be settled by the California Supreme Court.
-------------------------------------------------
You have to stop reading the Constitution. It will only confuse matters...
But in a nation where growing a pot plant in one's back yard falls under the jurisdiction of inter-state commerce, I guess anything is possible.
------------------------------------------------
Because someday that pot may be sold in interstate commerce. There is a popular warhorse of a case in con. law textbooks called US v. Wicker [or Whicker...it's been 11 years since I had to read it] (1943) where a man growing wheat in his backyard to avoid food rationing ran afoul of the Commerce Clause. The more famous case is the Ollie's Barbeque case where the S. Ct. found that a barbeque place in Alabama could not discriminate racially because it was involved [not really] in interstate commerce.
obTrav - the Imperium says it does not interfere in the local affairs of member worlds except under certian conditions (mostly WMD) but is this really the case?
==============================================
No, of course not. As the Minisrty of INformation might say-- who are you going to beleive? Us or your own two eyes? [Unless you have more than two eyes]
Control over what crosses the XT line at the spaceport must give the local Imperial authorities termendous power over who rises, who falls, who wins the wars and who loses. Hold the right shipment of Tac missiles in customs for a few extra days and regeime change can be rather subltly accomplished.
================================================
I agree. Particularly troublesome local goverments can be dealt with in ways more subtle than A fleet arriving and Marines landing to seize GovernmentHouse. [Although that is a more direct method --- just ask Haiti,[1915] Nicaragua,[1920's] Honduras, [1930's] Lebanon [1965, 1983]
robject
October 23rd, 2003, 11:49 AM
OK, I've sifted the TLDL digests and cobbled some primitive HTML together.
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the Web, is linked off of the probably-latest version of the Vilani Grammar, also perhaps the only copy on the Web, at:
http://home.comcast.net/~downport/rules/Vilani_Grammar.html
Heck the Vilani probably have different words for 'inflation caused by scarcity of goods' and 'inflation caused by by an overabundabnce of currency.'
The Lexicon notes /dinnika/ for 'goods' and /puli/ for 'money', but doesn't have these larger terms you've postulated. But I agree that they ought to be there in some form! (And as a side note, Vilani roots are 1 and 2 syllables, so /dinnika/ is probably built on an older root).
Incidentally- I've wondered what the Vilani word for 'Gas Giant' is, since there doesn't seem to be one in the Vland system...
The Lexicon doesn't have one, but one could be cooked up. If the Vilani don't care much, it would be gas+planet, mikikasha (/miki/ + /kasha/), or some conflation of the two like 'mikisha' or even (gads) 'mikasa'.
No doubt many Vilani cooking terms would have made their way into Anglic...
The Lexicon lists lots of Vilani foods, none of which are known to us pre-interstellar Terrans. NOTE: I seem to remember significant commentary on the ubiquity and 'difficultness' of Argu, the Vilani tuber for all occasions.
spider-like pest, edible ugar
batlike creature, a species of_ garib
insect, pollinating erinne
insect, pollinating magiru
pig-like domestic animal shalap
animal, domestic meat-bearing_ ganisha
animal, large insectile_, produces edible fluid kamishgiirmu
animal, small edible_ niimrusha
animal, small furred egg-laying_ ramumi
animal, wild poisonous insectoid_ asushuun
animal, young male_ of domestic species amar
bird (esp. small; domestic?) ziga
bird, large, dangerous, fierce tree-nesting_ imdugud
bird, very large trainable_ of prey, native to Vland kankurur
dairy product, type of_ shum
sauce used in preparing arulangin
seafood; has pungent odor
plant, a type bearing irregularly shaped yellow fruit, iiri
grain, a fast-growing type of_ shesh
grain-like short grass, extremely fast-growing pumamri
grasslike plant, desert/dryland_ dikh
tree, a type of fruit-bearing_ misushik
tree, date-palm-like_ sulum/sulub
tree, palm-like_ nimbar
tree, type of giant shade-_ sarbaru
tree, willow-like_ khaluppu
tuber, dark green carrotlike_ ginasush
tuber, potato-like_ argu
tuber, producing clumps of small round brown roots karkiirim
vegetable, edible green-leafed_ kiimuu
vegetable, green-leafed_ lashirmii
vegetal additive to food fermentation process (secret) bappir
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the Web, is linked off of the probably-latest version of the Vilani Grammar, also perhaps the only copy on the Web, at:
http://home.comcast.net/~downport/rules/Vilani_Grammar.html
Heck the Vilani probably have different words for 'inflation caused by scarcity of goods' and 'inflation caused by by an overabundabnce of currency.'
The Lexicon notes /dinnika/ for 'goods' and /puli/ for 'money', but doesn't have these larger terms you've postulated. But I agree that they ought to be there in some form! (And as a side note, Vilani roots are 1 and 2 syllables, so /dinnika/ is probably built on an older root).
Incidentally- I've wondered what the Vilani word for 'Gas Giant' is, since there doesn't seem to be one in the Vland system...
The Lexicon doesn't have one, but one could be cooked up. If the Vilani don't care much, it would be gas+planet, mikikasha (/miki/ + /kasha/), or some conflation of the two like 'mikisha' or even (gads) 'mikasa'.
No doubt many Vilani cooking terms would have made their way into Anglic...
The Lexicon lists lots of Vilani foods, none of which are known to us pre-interstellar Terrans. NOTE: I seem to remember significant commentary on the ubiquity and 'difficultness' of Argu, the Vilani tuber for all occasions.
spider-like pest, edible ugar
batlike creature, a species of_ garib
insect, pollinating erinne
insect, pollinating magiru
pig-like domestic animal shalap
animal, domestic meat-bearing_ ganisha
animal, large insectile_, produces edible fluid kamishgiirmu
animal, small edible_ niimrusha
animal, small furred egg-laying_ ramumi
animal, wild poisonous insectoid_ asushuun
animal, young male_ of domestic species amar
bird (esp. small; domestic?) ziga
bird, large, dangerous, fierce tree-nesting_ imdugud
bird, very large trainable_ of prey, native to Vland kankurur
dairy product, type of_ shum
sauce used in preparing arulangin
seafood; has pungent odor
plant, a type bearing irregularly shaped yellow fruit, iiri
grain, a fast-growing type of_ shesh
grain-like short grass, extremely fast-growing pumamri
grasslike plant, desert/dryland_ dikh
tree, a type of fruit-bearing_ misushik
tree, date-palm-like_ sulum/sulub
tree, palm-like_ nimbar
tree, type of giant shade-_ sarbaru
tree, willow-like_ khaluppu
tuber, dark green carrotlike_ ginasush
tuber, potato-like_ argu
tuber, producing clumps of small round brown roots karkiirim
vegetable, edible green-leafed_ kiimuu
vegetable, green-leafed_ lashirmii
vegetal additive to food fermentation process (secret) bappir
theSea
October 23rd, 2003, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by robject:
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the WebNot the only one:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vilvocab.txt
But it's probaly darn close - I seem to recall it took more than a little google-fu to find that one...
Thanks for the grammar - I hadn't seen that. Does it address the tonal nature of Vilani?
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the WebNot the only one:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vilvocab.txt
But it's probaly darn close - I seem to recall it took more than a little google-fu to find that one...
Thanks for the grammar - I hadn't seen that. Does it address the tonal nature of Vilani?
theSea
October 23rd, 2003, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by secretagent:
Because someday that pot may be sold in interstate commerce. Riiiight. And if my aunt were plumbed differently she'd be my uncle.
Although that is a more direct method --- just ask Haiti,[1915] Nicaragua,[1920's] Honduras, [1930's] Lebanon [1965, 1983] Don't forget Grenada, Panama and Haiti in the 80's.
Because someday that pot may be sold in interstate commerce. Riiiight. And if my aunt were plumbed differently she'd be my uncle.
Although that is a more direct method --- just ask Haiti,[1915] Nicaragua,[1920's] Honduras, [1930's] Lebanon [1965, 1983] Don't forget Grenada, Panama and Haiti in the 80's.
robject
October 23rd, 2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by theSea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the WebNot the only one:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vilvocab.txt
But it's probaly darn close - I seem to recall it took more than a little google-fu to find that one...
Thanks for the grammar - I hadn't seen that. Does it address the tonal nature of Vilani? </font>[/QUOTE]In fact, that is the very same list I'm using for the Lexicon, taken from Rob's TLDL archive site. I will be adding to the lexicon based on the discussions we've all been having on this thread.
The vilvocab file has around 1500 entries. The threshold for a truly usable 'language' is supposedly around 3000 words, for some definition of 'word'. So there's still some maturing that needs to be done; however, I believe many new words can be coined and derived from the existing lexicon, by breaking roots out of words already there, finding new words from the forms of existing words, and conflating/appending roots together to form compound words or even new roots. Lots of room for growth.
The grammar is from all them digests in the same web area. I sifted through them and gathered together all of Kenji's postings into one big 'ol page and indexed it. There is mention of the use of tones in the sketch, though somewhat, erm, sketchy. There was a lot of discussion about it in the TLDL at the time. I never cared for tones, but that's okay, I won't be speaking Vilani.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by robject:
The probably-latest version of the Vilani Lexicon, and perhaps the only copy on the WebNot the only one:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/2555/vilvocab.txt
But it's probaly darn close - I seem to recall it took more than a little google-fu to find that one...
Thanks for the grammar - I hadn't seen that. Does it address the tonal nature of Vilani? </font>[/QUOTE]In fact, that is the very same list I'm using for the Lexicon, taken from Rob's TLDL archive site. I will be adding to the lexicon based on the discussions we've all been having on this thread.
The vilvocab file has around 1500 entries. The threshold for a truly usable 'language' is supposedly around 3000 words, for some definition of 'word'. So there's still some maturing that needs to be done; however, I believe many new words can be coined and derived from the existing lexicon, by breaking roots out of words already there, finding new words from the forms of existing words, and conflating/appending roots together to form compound words or even new roots. Lots of room for growth.
The grammar is from all them digests in the same web area. I sifted through them and gathered together all of Kenji's postings into one big 'ol page and indexed it. There is mention of the use of tones in the sketch, though somewhat, erm, sketchy. There was a lot of discussion about it in the TLDL at the time. I never cared for tones, but that's okay, I won't be speaking Vilani.
robject
February 8th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Thread Hijack
This is a call for words. After poring over those horribly-named worlds in Milieu Zero's Core sector, I finally bit the bullet and cobbled together a basic wordlist of Sylean terms, a proto-grammar, and a JavaScript Sylean Word Generator.
Now I need input from all of you who have had dealings with Syleans.
I've got a few nouns and verbs identified, but I've got a lot that I don't know the meaning of. Some help would be appreciated. Also, I'd like to expand the vocabulary with new submissions.
At this point, I need basic concepts. Common nouns and verbs. Stuff we say every day, such as "say" and "every day", and "stuff".
The proto-grammar and little lexicon are here:
http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylean.html
The Random Word Generator -- which is sort of messy but can occasionally produce a gem -- is here:
http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylgen4.html
Thanks for your support.
Here's a starting point: verb roots end in a vowel + 'h', and nouns end in 'n', 'r', or 'l'.
This is a call for words. After poring over those horribly-named worlds in Milieu Zero's Core sector, I finally bit the bullet and cobbled together a basic wordlist of Sylean terms, a proto-grammar, and a JavaScript Sylean Word Generator.
Now I need input from all of you who have had dealings with Syleans.
I've got a few nouns and verbs identified, but I've got a lot that I don't know the meaning of. Some help would be appreciated. Also, I'd like to expand the vocabulary with new submissions.
At this point, I need basic concepts. Common nouns and verbs. Stuff we say every day, such as "say" and "every day", and "stuff".
The proto-grammar and little lexicon are here:
http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylean.html
The Random Word Generator -- which is sort of messy but can occasionally produce a gem -- is here:
http://eaglestone.pocketempires.com/lang/sylgen4.html
Thanks for your support.
Here's a starting point: verb roots end in a vowel + 'h', and nouns end in 'n', 'r', or 'l'.
sid6.7
February 8th, 2006, 06:24 PM
i found this is to an excellent lang maker
it will let you input some of those rules
and then generate a language based on that
it does have a few bugs but i use it all
the time...
it takes a few days and runs to get the hang
of it but it s neat...
it can also AGE your language and stuff
like that..so you can have it start out
one way...then morph over time to something
else...
i've made like 15 languages with it...
some with 3000 words....
it can then also take your words
and make names from it....
like:
fish
man
- fisherman
stone
wall
-stonewall
mine are pertty primitve in explanation though
i walked accross the street...
accross the street i walked....
just the 2 kinds of formats...plus
i made some have only some letters
but not others...or it always has double vowels
instead of double consanants...etc...
i made some with earth flavors
like spanish or french or swahili
i even have tried to revive old "dead"
languages...
its pertty fun...
the one i really am proud of is my "iniut"
language it really sounds quite similar to
iniut...
www.langmaker.com (http://www.langmaker.com)
it will let you input some of those rules
and then generate a language based on that
it does have a few bugs but i use it all
the time...
it takes a few days and runs to get the hang
of it but it s neat...
it can also AGE your language and stuff
like that..so you can have it start out
one way...then morph over time to something
else...
i've made like 15 languages with it...
some with 3000 words....
it can then also take your words
and make names from it....
like:
fish
man
- fisherman
stone
wall
-stonewall
mine are pertty primitve in explanation though
i walked accross the street...
accross the street i walked....
just the 2 kinds of formats...plus
i made some have only some letters
but not others...or it always has double vowels
instead of double consanants...etc...
i made some with earth flavors
like spanish or french or swahili
i even have tried to revive old "dead"
languages...
its pertty fun...
the one i really am proud of is my "iniut"
language it really sounds quite similar to
iniut...
www.langmaker.com (http://www.langmaker.com)
robject
February 9th, 2006, 09:55 AM
Thanks Sid, I'll check it out. I actually know that site, but didn't know they had software.
Er, which program on that site are you referring to?
Er, which program on that site are you referring to?
sid6.7
February 9th, 2006, 11:24 AM
oops sorry i forgot they had it buried pertty deep there:
http://www.langmaker.com/langmake/
if you have an email or something i can email
you a word list i modified to eliminate
some of the errors in the program...i got
rid of about 80%+ of the errors i noticed
anyways...there is probably a few i missed
and such...but i think i cleaned it up a hair
http://www.langmaker.com/langmake/
if you have an email or something i can email
you a word list i modified to eliminate
some of the errors in the program...i got
rid of about 80%+ of the errors i noticed
anyways...there is probably a few i missed
and such...but i think i cleaned it up a hair
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