BetterThanLife
October 26th, 2006, 04:31 PM
For a while now I have been trying to work out the economics of a decent Mercenary Unit, Star Mercs, etc.
From the published material I have gathered over the years, I have come to some conclusions.
So far, canon Mercenary Tickets vary widely in terms of risk vs. reward. None of the Mercenary tickets actually pay for enough to cover the Unit expenses if they have organic starships, in most cases even if they have an organic mech component. The few and far between escort/piracy suppression tickets I have seen published that are supposed to be hiring the ship, don't cover the operating expenses of the ship. In Ground combat, if a Merc Unit loses a grav tank in combat they couldn't replace it with the tickets offered.
Most Mercenary tickets appear to be suited for a minimum of a Company sized element. The ones that call for a company are usually better suited to a Batalion. But even with the Company tickets there is no provision for getting the Company to the target zone. Yet most Merc Units are based on Broadsword or Javelin class "Mercenary Cruisers" that carry a Platoon.
I have always liked the Mercenary campaign but the economics have always been beyond me. What formulas have people come up with to determine what a Mercenary ticket will pay?
I have seen countless discussions about freighter economics. Building starships to turn a commercial profit. Using Trade and Speculation. But Mercenary Unit Economics seem to be left in the dark. smile.gif
Any ideas?
From the published material I have gathered over the years, I have come to some conclusions.
So far, canon Mercenary Tickets vary widely in terms of risk vs. reward. None of the Mercenary tickets actually pay for enough to cover the Unit expenses if they have organic starships, in most cases even if they have an organic mech component. The few and far between escort/piracy suppression tickets I have seen published that are supposed to be hiring the ship, don't cover the operating expenses of the ship. In Ground combat, if a Merc Unit loses a grav tank in combat they couldn't replace it with the tickets offered.
Most Mercenary tickets appear to be suited for a minimum of a Company sized element. The ones that call for a company are usually better suited to a Batalion. But even with the Company tickets there is no provision for getting the Company to the target zone. Yet most Merc Units are based on Broadsword or Javelin class "Mercenary Cruisers" that carry a Platoon.
I have always liked the Mercenary campaign but the economics have always been beyond me. What formulas have people come up with to determine what a Mercenary ticket will pay?
I have seen countless discussions about freighter economics. Building starships to turn a commercial profit. Using Trade and Speculation. But Mercenary Unit Economics seem to be left in the dark. smile.gif
Any ideas?
mike wightman
October 26th, 2006, 04:43 PM
I've run a couple of merc. campaigns. In the first the group was only a platoon sized cadre, their ticket was to train up a battalion, and act as a special force unit if needed.
They had to travel by liner or merchantman, so it took a while for them to all get on planet.
The second time involved a company strength unit who had to crew locally provided equipment and again train the local in its use. Once again transport to and from the ticket was via Tukera.
No way could they ever afford to operate their own mercenary cruiser without going pirate.
They had to travel by liner or merchantman, so it took a while for them to all get on planet.
The second time involved a company strength unit who had to crew locally provided equipment and again train the local in its use. Once again transport to and from the ticket was via Tukera.
No way could they ever afford to operate their own mercenary cruiser without going pirate.
Badbru
October 26th, 2006, 05:17 PM
I think we have a romantic ideal of mercenaries having "All the cool shit" so to speak. However I suspect, historically speaking, that you will find overwhealmingly that mercenaries have used either a) Patron supplied equipment. Rarely more than minimum required to get the job done, and rarer still is it "better than" your opponents gear. (Maybe less applicable in Traveller with all it's Tech levels)
b) Locally "acquired" equipment. That means local to where they are deployed, and acquired can mean alot of things...
or, c) Second hand, hand me down, junk that has been bought on the black market and smuggled in.
If the Merc's loose a Grav tank then that's the patrons' lookout. They probably wont hire you again. (No-one will be hiring the crew of lost grav tank, eeeew sticky). If, shock horror, the grav tank was theirs, then I'd suggest they go back to the scap yard they got it from and see if there is another lying about.
By that I mean most mercenary companies will really only be just the people.
If we start involving starships too then the only way to finance that is through battlefield salvage rights, I feel. If you loose a starship that'll be a major cost burden but if from every battle that you didn't loose a ship you gained/looted/salvaged one quarter of a ship in parts, like jump drives, powerplants, computers, turrets etc etc you may have a war chest to cover it. Perhaps.
b) Locally "acquired" equipment. That means local to where they are deployed, and acquired can mean alot of things...
or, c) Second hand, hand me down, junk that has been bought on the black market and smuggled in.
If the Merc's loose a Grav tank then that's the patrons' lookout. They probably wont hire you again. (No-one will be hiring the crew of lost grav tank, eeeew sticky). If, shock horror, the grav tank was theirs, then I'd suggest they go back to the scap yard they got it from and see if there is another lying about.
By that I mean most mercenary companies will really only be just the people.
If we start involving starships too then the only way to finance that is through battlefield salvage rights, I feel. If you loose a starship that'll be a major cost burden but if from every battle that you didn't loose a ship you gained/looted/salvaged one quarter of a ship in parts, like jump drives, powerplants, computers, turrets etc etc you may have a war chest to cover it. Perhaps.
mike wightman
October 26th, 2006, 05:31 PM
It's always a good idea to be personally equiped a couple of TLs higher than the likely oposition.
If your ticket is to a TL8 or less world then a combat environent suit and either a laser carbine or an ACR would be my minimum.
Between TL9 and 11 I'd want combat armour and a gauss rifle. Anything higher and I'd look for another ticket.
If your ticket is to a TL8 or less world then a combat environent suit and either a laser carbine or an ACR would be my minimum.
Between TL9 and 11 I'd want combat armour and a gauss rifle. Anything higher and I'd look for another ticket.
flykiller
October 26th, 2006, 05:49 PM
drew up a unit using book 4. one company of motorized infantry, tech 7. counted every paycheck, pistol, round of ammo, vehicle, and gallon of gasoline, in addition to assumed repair/maintenance costs, meals, housing, etc - fairly generous expectation of fuel and ammo usage. didn't count medical costs or life insurance. came up with a base cost of 5.3 MCr the first year, 3.9 MCr each follow-on year. this is with minimal pay, no profits, no replacement costs, no interstellar transportation, and no specialty skills. raise it to tech 12 with combat armor, plasma guns, and grav vehicles and I'd expect the base costs at to quadruple at least.
cadre and light-infantry commandos seem to be the only mercenary units possible without raising prices very high. toss in armor or air support and prices go through the roof. toss in a merc cruiser and it would be cheaper to bribe the enemy. "hey chief, we'll give you 50MCr to let us win."
cadre and light-infantry commandos seem to be the only mercenary units possible without raising prices very high. toss in armor or air support and prices go through the roof. toss in a merc cruiser and it would be cheaper to bribe the enemy. "hey chief, we'll give you 50MCr to let us win."
Ganidirsii O'Flynn
October 26th, 2006, 08:34 PM
In the mercenary campaigns I've played in, we actually did make money with the addition of 'reasonable expenses and combat losses' clauses.
Our unit was an expensive one, a heavy mechanized short company at TL 12, and supplied it's own transport in two Type R Vilani Flying Bricks and a Type C Fuzzy Ball of Mercenary Death. The unit itself consisted 6 TL 12 grav tanks, a platoon of dedicated infantry, and a support unit (medical, supply, maintainance, and two TL 9 mortars).
The clauses allowed for replacement of lost vehicles, ammuntions costs, and limited(!) spare parts. And use of the ships themselves was definately extra. And we were fairly picky about the contracts we took. We didn't do Internal Security jobs, and jobs that required extra conditions on the men were extra as well. These were considered to be Tainted Atmospheres, ProFors, and Cadre. Further, we insisted on tactical control of our operations, within reason. The idea was to keep our risks managable by doing jobs we were suited to, and not to be placed in untenable situations due to local politics. And we usually got paid in advance.
I should note that our campaign borrowed some info from the BattleTech universe regarding unit reputations, employer reputations, hiring halls and so on. We assumed that each stellar region (subsector, cluster, or what have you) had a world that was the principal mercenary gathering point, and that Hortalez et Cie. and Interstellarms were the principal bonding authorities.
That explain it, sorta?
Our unit was an expensive one, a heavy mechanized short company at TL 12, and supplied it's own transport in two Type R Vilani Flying Bricks and a Type C Fuzzy Ball of Mercenary Death. The unit itself consisted 6 TL 12 grav tanks, a platoon of dedicated infantry, and a support unit (medical, supply, maintainance, and two TL 9 mortars).
The clauses allowed for replacement of lost vehicles, ammuntions costs, and limited(!) spare parts. And use of the ships themselves was definately extra. And we were fairly picky about the contracts we took. We didn't do Internal Security jobs, and jobs that required extra conditions on the men were extra as well. These were considered to be Tainted Atmospheres, ProFors, and Cadre. Further, we insisted on tactical control of our operations, within reason. The idea was to keep our risks managable by doing jobs we were suited to, and not to be placed in untenable situations due to local politics. And we usually got paid in advance.
I should note that our campaign borrowed some info from the BattleTech universe regarding unit reputations, employer reputations, hiring halls and so on. We assumed that each stellar region (subsector, cluster, or what have you) had a world that was the principal mercenary gathering point, and that Hortalez et Cie. and Interstellarms were the principal bonding authorities.
That explain it, sorta?
aramis
October 27th, 2006, 05:23 AM
I did much the same, Mr. O'Flynn... Bk4, MT, and BT Merc's Handbook...
Most of my merc games were SOG's... not line.
Mason Ferarri's Nail Teams were transported on Type T's. Mission costs included full charter of the needed type T's, prorate on the 5 year life of a suit of BD for each trooper, salary for each trooper, ammo load-out for at least 1000 rounds basic ammunitions, and 30 rounds of disposables (grenades & laws). Then mark up 50%, and require this PLUS repatriation bonds through LSP, HetC, Instellarms or Nasiraaka. Need to hire them? Simple, His excellency is readily found at Regina... and is active in the Sector Duke's court...
TO&E was a 10-man squad in IGB-BD-14, HoloHUD, TL14 2mm caseless HiVel carbine (a 3g3 design..) with a 100 round brick detachable box, . 2 PGMP14's, two radiomen, and a medic in the teams. At MCr 2.5 per suit, that's 500KCr/year, and the prorate was KCr40/month! Also, repairs escrow of MCr50 (refundable if not needed) for the ship.
So a one-month "Smash and grab" was starting at KCr40 for the suits, KCr 20 or so for the meat, KCr10 for ammo, plus the cost of transport. Call it MCr1.6 per month for a 10man Elite Battle Dress nail team with integral transport, plus 20 repatriation bonds. (Ship's crew, too.) Teams in the field could take new contracts under these terms, if en route home.
Of course, a lot of their jobs were "wetwork"... kill this target.
Most of my merc games were SOG's... not line.
Mason Ferarri's Nail Teams were transported on Type T's. Mission costs included full charter of the needed type T's, prorate on the 5 year life of a suit of BD for each trooper, salary for each trooper, ammo load-out for at least 1000 rounds basic ammunitions, and 30 rounds of disposables (grenades & laws). Then mark up 50%, and require this PLUS repatriation bonds through LSP, HetC, Instellarms or Nasiraaka. Need to hire them? Simple, His excellency is readily found at Regina... and is active in the Sector Duke's court...
TO&E was a 10-man squad in IGB-BD-14, HoloHUD, TL14 2mm caseless HiVel carbine (a 3g3 design..) with a 100 round brick detachable box, . 2 PGMP14's, two radiomen, and a medic in the teams. At MCr 2.5 per suit, that's 500KCr/year, and the prorate was KCr40/month! Also, repairs escrow of MCr50 (refundable if not needed) for the ship.
So a one-month "Smash and grab" was starting at KCr40 for the suits, KCr 20 or so for the meat, KCr10 for ammo, plus the cost of transport. Call it MCr1.6 per month for a 10man Elite Battle Dress nail team with integral transport, plus 20 repatriation bonds. (Ship's crew, too.) Teams in the field could take new contracts under these terms, if en route home.
Of course, a lot of their jobs were "wetwork"... kill this target.
BetterThanLife
October 27th, 2006, 11:09 AM
I have built a fair number of Merc Units. Platoons centered around a Type C. More recently around a Javelin. Companies, usually either a large ship or a Broadsword or two and 2-4 Subsidized Liners.
With or without armor support. Always with mobility faster than walking, and generally equipped in the TL12-14 range. Before T20 Combat Armor was standard because it was more cost effective than battle dress. It was always a fun campaign, but the tickets never seemed to cover the costs. It the ships were on a mortgage, (they were usually purchased outright or provided by a patron) there is no way they would get paid for.
The Patron, would never be able to show a profit during the life expectancy of a Mercenary unit, given the normal payment rates.
Also given the normal payment rates for tickets found in canon, if they are representative, Aramis, your teams would be priced out of the market. I don't believe your pricing scale is wrong, but canon tickets don't pay anywhere near that rate.
There are very few Platoon Tickets, the most lucrative is double standard salaries (which for a platoon payroll is nothing) and a 2 Million upon success (Adventure 7, Broadsword). Otherwise the best price is MCr1 success only. Most of the Company tickets are in the MCr1-2 range.
EA6 pays KCr150 per month for 6 months and expects you to hazard the boat during operations, in a situation where you are vastly outnumbered.
EA7 pays per operation, most of which are short duration, generally less than a week, but implies that you are sitting on your butt most of the time with no pay. Those tickets run in the KCr300 range for Platoon tickets, though one is MCr1. You are in almost all of them, running long odds with a shortage of equipment.
IMHO Mercenary Units are rarely going to get cushy assignments. Low risk decent pay assignments aren't going to exist in the majority of the Traveller Universe. If they are low risk, minimum exposure, they can use their own military. The assignments that Mercenary untis would generally be hired for will be missions like in EA 6 and EA 7 and Adventure 7. Unpopular missions. High risk at impossible odds, generally for the minimum pay that the hiring agency can get away with.
The one Star Merc ticket I have seen wouldn't even cover the operating expenses of the ship, yet was a 6 month anti-piracy sweep where the ship was supposed to act as bait.
I have Aslan Mercenary Cruisers, which details the Aslan Tleikhoi (or however it is spelled) Regiment. None of the published tickets would pay their operating expenses.
The key would be to calculate average mercenary units then compute expenses and restructure the pay rates in the canon material to deal with those.
Amortizing armor and expensive personal equipment over 5 years sounds reasonable, perhaps 10 years with Organic Starships, and armored vehicles.
You would also have to calculate the average length of contracts and the average down time between contracts. (To include transport time between contracts.) Remembering that People contracting Mercenaries aren't going to want to pay for them to sit on their butts (That is what they have an Army for. smile.gif ). The contract has to include pay for transit but not look like pay during transit.
I think the tickets that say double salary without a bonus would have to go.
However asking the Patron to pay for combat losses is unreasonable. Giving a Mercenary Unit a blank check for expenses is a bad idea. Suddenly a MCr2 ticket turning into MCr20, because a few vehicles got "damaged" would not go over well with the clients.
I also think that Human Mercenaries would prefer to travel awake and human mercenary commanders would prefer this as well. Travelling in Low Berth is like travelling on repartriation bonds, in other words for losers. It is a morale thing. smile.gif
With or without armor support. Always with mobility faster than walking, and generally equipped in the TL12-14 range. Before T20 Combat Armor was standard because it was more cost effective than battle dress. It was always a fun campaign, but the tickets never seemed to cover the costs. It the ships were on a mortgage, (they were usually purchased outright or provided by a patron) there is no way they would get paid for.
The Patron, would never be able to show a profit during the life expectancy of a Mercenary unit, given the normal payment rates.
Also given the normal payment rates for tickets found in canon, if they are representative, Aramis, your teams would be priced out of the market. I don't believe your pricing scale is wrong, but canon tickets don't pay anywhere near that rate.
There are very few Platoon Tickets, the most lucrative is double standard salaries (which for a platoon payroll is nothing) and a 2 Million upon success (Adventure 7, Broadsword). Otherwise the best price is MCr1 success only. Most of the Company tickets are in the MCr1-2 range.
EA6 pays KCr150 per month for 6 months and expects you to hazard the boat during operations, in a situation where you are vastly outnumbered.
EA7 pays per operation, most of which are short duration, generally less than a week, but implies that you are sitting on your butt most of the time with no pay. Those tickets run in the KCr300 range for Platoon tickets, though one is MCr1. You are in almost all of them, running long odds with a shortage of equipment.
IMHO Mercenary Units are rarely going to get cushy assignments. Low risk decent pay assignments aren't going to exist in the majority of the Traveller Universe. If they are low risk, minimum exposure, they can use their own military. The assignments that Mercenary untis would generally be hired for will be missions like in EA 6 and EA 7 and Adventure 7. Unpopular missions. High risk at impossible odds, generally for the minimum pay that the hiring agency can get away with.
The one Star Merc ticket I have seen wouldn't even cover the operating expenses of the ship, yet was a 6 month anti-piracy sweep where the ship was supposed to act as bait.
I have Aslan Mercenary Cruisers, which details the Aslan Tleikhoi (or however it is spelled) Regiment. None of the published tickets would pay their operating expenses.
The key would be to calculate average mercenary units then compute expenses and restructure the pay rates in the canon material to deal with those.
Amortizing armor and expensive personal equipment over 5 years sounds reasonable, perhaps 10 years with Organic Starships, and armored vehicles.
You would also have to calculate the average length of contracts and the average down time between contracts. (To include transport time between contracts.) Remembering that People contracting Mercenaries aren't going to want to pay for them to sit on their butts (That is what they have an Army for. smile.gif ). The contract has to include pay for transit but not look like pay during transit.
I think the tickets that say double salary without a bonus would have to go.
However asking the Patron to pay for combat losses is unreasonable. Giving a Mercenary Unit a blank check for expenses is a bad idea. Suddenly a MCr2 ticket turning into MCr20, because a few vehicles got "damaged" would not go over well with the clients.
I also think that Human Mercenaries would prefer to travel awake and human mercenary commanders would prefer this as well. Travelling in Low Berth is like travelling on repartriation bonds, in other words for losers. It is a morale thing. smile.gif
Hal
November 18th, 2006, 12:57 AM
If it helps put things in perspective...
Using GURPS GROUND FORCES, I've thus far identified the cost of maintaining a Battalion level unit of TL 15 Lift infantry as being over 109 MCr per year. This does not include various costs such as basing costs, fluctuations in pay for hardship pay, health care, retirement costs, etc. It is just the cost of wages, maintenance cost on equipment issued for standard infantrymen, as well as maintenance costs for vehicles. I did not include costs such as radios for commo intercepts, battalion level communications, etc. At a guess, if you're using straight costs from STRIKER or MEGATRAVELLER etc, that the costs will be comparable to GURPS prices, if not more.
Also note, I did not include costs for training either. As a rough rule of thumb, I'd be willing to bet that cost to maintain a Battalion of Lift Infantry runs around 150 Mcr per year.
Using GURPS GROUND FORCES, I've thus far identified the cost of maintaining a Battalion level unit of TL 15 Lift infantry as being over 109 MCr per year. This does not include various costs such as basing costs, fluctuations in pay for hardship pay, health care, retirement costs, etc. It is just the cost of wages, maintenance cost on equipment issued for standard infantrymen, as well as maintenance costs for vehicles. I did not include costs such as radios for commo intercepts, battalion level communications, etc. At a guess, if you're using straight costs from STRIKER or MEGATRAVELLER etc, that the costs will be comparable to GURPS prices, if not more.
Also note, I did not include costs for training either. As a rough rule of thumb, I'd be willing to bet that cost to maintain a Battalion of Lift Infantry runs around 150 Mcr per year.
BetterThanLife
November 18th, 2006, 08:01 AM
Thanks Hal. Though a Batalion is outside of typical Traveller campaign sizes. Does that include transport, to and from the tickets?
Hal
November 27th, 2006, 08:39 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Thanks Hal. Though a Batalion is outside of typical Traveller campaign sizes. Does that include transport, to and from the tickets? Sorry for the delay in answering your question :(
That does not include the cost of transportation. Also keep in mind that was for the yearly cost of operations and maintainance - so divide it by any factor you desire. If you're interested in company sized units, let me know, as I can give you the data on that easily enough ;)
Thanks Hal. Though a Batalion is outside of typical Traveller campaign sizes. Does that include transport, to and from the tickets? Sorry for the delay in answering your question :(
That does not include the cost of transportation. Also keep in mind that was for the yearly cost of operations and maintainance - so divide it by any factor you desire. If you're interested in company sized units, let me know, as I can give you the data on that easily enough ;)
BetterThanLife
November 27th, 2006, 09:00 AM
My rough guess would be to use 10% of equipment cost per year (maintenance, combat losses and ammo), minus organic starships unless the starship was expected to take an active role in the unit's missions, plus salaries x2, (Have to account for bonuses.) plus 20% of personal equipment cost (to amortize over 5 years), plus 10% of major equipment cost (to amortize over 10 years), plus organic starship mortgage cost, plus organic starship maintenance, per year.
Does that sound like a reasonable formula?
Energy weapon armed troops would cost less ammo wise but more when it comes to equipment maintenance costs.
Based on that and bulk transport for vehicle cost, that may or may not be useful at the target site, I would suggest that most Merc Units would be light infantry.
There are some definite equipment issues with Mercenary campaigns as well. For example there is no squad level man portable supressive fire weapon above TL6, though I seem to recall TNE having one. The infantry rifle advances but the machinegun doesn't. Of the energy weapons only the laser rifle has any sustained combat capability. (Everything else runs out of ammo too fast and extra power packs are definitely excessively bulky.)
Does that sound like a reasonable formula?
Energy weapon armed troops would cost less ammo wise but more when it comes to equipment maintenance costs.
Based on that and bulk transport for vehicle cost, that may or may not be useful at the target site, I would suggest that most Merc Units would be light infantry.
There are some definite equipment issues with Mercenary campaigns as well. For example there is no squad level man portable supressive fire weapon above TL6, though I seem to recall TNE having one. The infantry rifle advances but the machinegun doesn't. Of the energy weapons only the laser rifle has any sustained combat capability. (Everything else runs out of ammo too fast and extra power packs are definitely excessively bulky.)
Hal
November 27th, 2006, 03:16 PM
I guess to some extent, especially since I have NO mercenary experience ;) You might want to take this with a grain of salt.
A) most equipment that the Mercenaries buy are picked up second hand and usually cheap. As such, equipment costs should be lower by a considerable margin.
B) Ships are in and of themselves expensive as all hell to purchase and maintain. Your best bet would be to decide just how much cargo capacity you need, how much transport capacity you need, and hoof it from there. Remember, it is far cheaper to arrange for a 2 month charter and not need the transport for the remaining 10 months, than it is to purchase a ship, maintain it 12 months out of 12, and need that albatros around your neck as you finance your own operations on the ground
C) when it comes to ticket prices, I suspect that mercenary pay is going to have to be one of those "art of the GM" kind of things than any given formulaeic kind of thing. For example, your unit is hired by low income natives of a world - they can't afford to pay TOP of the line prices, but closer to bottom of the line prices instead. If there is a shortage of jobs, then you won't be able to take higher paying ones unless you're lucky, hence, you take it to keep from starving. On the flip side, you might have a unit that is so good, that people are willing to pay for what amounts to a KNOWN quanity of assured or near assured success. My guess? A functional unit constantly scavenges the battlefield as part of its contract with the employer required to pay for transport. Thus, you defeat your foe, the contract lets you loot your battlefields - you make a profit from the loot either as war material for your unit, or as something to sell and then buy what you need later. That's how I'd run it at least.
First - count how much it costs to train a guy to minimal levels. Then compute how much it costs to arm him to the unit standards. Then, charge the transport costs directly against the employer himself. And, like Hammer's Slammers - authorize some bank to hold in escrow, the agreed upon payment with a negotiator lined up in case of a dispute. Include some sort of penalty clauses for anything injurious to your unit ahead of time.
If you want? I can dig up my old MERCENARIES booklet, plus STRIKER, plus any other stipulations you might have, and work on it as a spare time project. When do you need it by?
A) most equipment that the Mercenaries buy are picked up second hand and usually cheap. As such, equipment costs should be lower by a considerable margin.
B) Ships are in and of themselves expensive as all hell to purchase and maintain. Your best bet would be to decide just how much cargo capacity you need, how much transport capacity you need, and hoof it from there. Remember, it is far cheaper to arrange for a 2 month charter and not need the transport for the remaining 10 months, than it is to purchase a ship, maintain it 12 months out of 12, and need that albatros around your neck as you finance your own operations on the ground
C) when it comes to ticket prices, I suspect that mercenary pay is going to have to be one of those "art of the GM" kind of things than any given formulaeic kind of thing. For example, your unit is hired by low income natives of a world - they can't afford to pay TOP of the line prices, but closer to bottom of the line prices instead. If there is a shortage of jobs, then you won't be able to take higher paying ones unless you're lucky, hence, you take it to keep from starving. On the flip side, you might have a unit that is so good, that people are willing to pay for what amounts to a KNOWN quanity of assured or near assured success. My guess? A functional unit constantly scavenges the battlefield as part of its contract with the employer required to pay for transport. Thus, you defeat your foe, the contract lets you loot your battlefields - you make a profit from the loot either as war material for your unit, or as something to sell and then buy what you need later. That's how I'd run it at least.
First - count how much it costs to train a guy to minimal levels. Then compute how much it costs to arm him to the unit standards. Then, charge the transport costs directly against the employer himself. And, like Hammer's Slammers - authorize some bank to hold in escrow, the agreed upon payment with a negotiator lined up in case of a dispute. Include some sort of penalty clauses for anything injurious to your unit ahead of time.
If you want? I can dig up my old MERCENARIES booklet, plus STRIKER, plus any other stipulations you might have, and work on it as a spare time project. When do you need it by?
BetterThanLife
November 27th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Hal:
I guess to some extent, especially since I have NO mercenary experience ;) You might want to take this with a grain of salt.I actually doubt that anyone here has any serious Mercenary experience, but I could be wrong.
A) most equipment that the Mercenaries buy are picked up second hand and usually cheap. As such, equipment costs should be lower by a considerable margin.I think that would depend on several factors.
1. The feel of the campaign. In grittier futures this would be more true than nice clean ones.
2. The level of quality of the Mercenary Unit.
3. The size of the Unit. After all how likely are you to be able to pick up 36 slightly used Gauss Rifles, with the same specs, spare parts, ammunition and magazines? How about 150?
4. The length of service that the unit is likely to be together for. If it is one short tour, more likely. If it is a unit that intends to work together over a period of several tickets and years, less likely.
5. The amount of marketing that the Unit engages in. Nice pretty weapons uniform weapons, and other equipment will sell the unit to prospective clients easier than a conglomeration of junk that looks like you picked it up at a Army Surplus store and a swap meet.
B) Ships are in and of themselves expensive as all hell to purchase and maintain. Your best bet would be to decide just how much cargo capacity you need, how much transport capacity you need, and hoof it from there. Remember, it is far cheaper to arrange for a 2 month charter and not need the transport for the remaining 10 months, than it is to purchase a ship, maintain it 12 months out of 12, and need that albatros around your neck as you finance your own operations on the groundYes and no. After all if you can't get to the job, or travel between jobs because you have to wait on a ship visiting your current location that is available for charter and has sufficient capacity, you are going to be sitting idle much more often. It of course depends on the level of traffic and the distance to the next destination. Further a dedicated Mercenary Cruiser will have a crew that is trained to put you on your objective, even in a hot LZ, with the right equipment to get your troops down and pick them up. Further a dedicated ship can provide the missing artillery support that your small unit otherwise would do without. Yes it is expensive but it could also pay for itself since you can react faster and therefore get more jobs.
Further since this is Traveller. For some reason players like to have means to travel. So Starships for Mercenary Units actually have to be considered.
C) when it comes to ticket prices, I suspect that mercenary pay is going to have to be one of those "art of the GM" kind of things than any given formulaeic kind of thing. For example, your unit is hired by low income natives of a world - they can't afford to pay TOP of the line prices, but closer to bottom of the line prices instead. If there is a shortage of jobs, then you won't be able to take higher paying ones unless you're lucky, hence, you take it to keep from starving. On the flip side, you might have a unit that is so good, that people are willing to pay for what amounts to a KNOWN quanity of assured or near assured success. My guess? A functional unit constantly scavenges the battlefield as part of its contract with the employer required to pay for transport. Thus, you defeat your foe, the contract lets you loot your battlefields - you make a profit from the loot either as war material for your unit, or as something to sell and then buy what you need later. That's how I'd run it at least.But what is that battlefield salvage likely to be worth. After all it is all shot up. Especially in a Low tech environment. Further you have to not just salvage and sort it but you also now have to transport it. Yes a Unit will make money from this type of situation, but it is not assured, nor highly lucrative. Tanks with holes in them aren't worth much. smile.gif
First - count how much it costs to train a guy to minimal levels. Then compute how much it costs to arm him to the unit standards. Then, charge the transport costs directly against the employer himself. And, like Hammer's Slammers - authorize some bank to hold in escrow, the agreed upon payment with a negotiator lined up in case of a dispute. Include some sort of penalty clauses for anything injurious to your unit ahead of time.Now that is fine and good but what does it cost to train up a recruit? (That cost is not covered in the rules. smile.gif ) If you are waiting on some transport, or the new patron to provide transport you could end up like Falkenberg's legion. Stuck on a planet with no job and no prospects, so you have to take any job that comes along to get you off the planet.
If you want? I can dig up my old MERCENARIES booklet, plus STRIKER, plus any other stipulations you might have, and work on it as a spare time project. When do you need it by? <EDIT> Ooops Missed this. smile.gif
This is more an exercise in process and identifying potential problems before they come up. I can design Mercenary Units, come up with missions for them, etc. (I don't have a Merc background but I do have an intelligence and infantry background so I understand missions and mission parameters fairly well. smile.gif ) I am just trying to establish a good baseline for ticket pricing. To do that I have to first, figure out a decent formula to calculate what a unit's expenses are going to be. After that I will need to make a determination as to the frequency of tickets, and how a unit gets tickets in the first place. </EDIT>
I guess to some extent, especially since I have NO mercenary experience ;) You might want to take this with a grain of salt.I actually doubt that anyone here has any serious Mercenary experience, but I could be wrong.
A) most equipment that the Mercenaries buy are picked up second hand and usually cheap. As such, equipment costs should be lower by a considerable margin.I think that would depend on several factors.
1. The feel of the campaign. In grittier futures this would be more true than nice clean ones.
2. The level of quality of the Mercenary Unit.
3. The size of the Unit. After all how likely are you to be able to pick up 36 slightly used Gauss Rifles, with the same specs, spare parts, ammunition and magazines? How about 150?
4. The length of service that the unit is likely to be together for. If it is one short tour, more likely. If it is a unit that intends to work together over a period of several tickets and years, less likely.
5. The amount of marketing that the Unit engages in. Nice pretty weapons uniform weapons, and other equipment will sell the unit to prospective clients easier than a conglomeration of junk that looks like you picked it up at a Army Surplus store and a swap meet.
B) Ships are in and of themselves expensive as all hell to purchase and maintain. Your best bet would be to decide just how much cargo capacity you need, how much transport capacity you need, and hoof it from there. Remember, it is far cheaper to arrange for a 2 month charter and not need the transport for the remaining 10 months, than it is to purchase a ship, maintain it 12 months out of 12, and need that albatros around your neck as you finance your own operations on the groundYes and no. After all if you can't get to the job, or travel between jobs because you have to wait on a ship visiting your current location that is available for charter and has sufficient capacity, you are going to be sitting idle much more often. It of course depends on the level of traffic and the distance to the next destination. Further a dedicated Mercenary Cruiser will have a crew that is trained to put you on your objective, even in a hot LZ, with the right equipment to get your troops down and pick them up. Further a dedicated ship can provide the missing artillery support that your small unit otherwise would do without. Yes it is expensive but it could also pay for itself since you can react faster and therefore get more jobs.
Further since this is Traveller. For some reason players like to have means to travel. So Starships for Mercenary Units actually have to be considered.
C) when it comes to ticket prices, I suspect that mercenary pay is going to have to be one of those "art of the GM" kind of things than any given formulaeic kind of thing. For example, your unit is hired by low income natives of a world - they can't afford to pay TOP of the line prices, but closer to bottom of the line prices instead. If there is a shortage of jobs, then you won't be able to take higher paying ones unless you're lucky, hence, you take it to keep from starving. On the flip side, you might have a unit that is so good, that people are willing to pay for what amounts to a KNOWN quanity of assured or near assured success. My guess? A functional unit constantly scavenges the battlefield as part of its contract with the employer required to pay for transport. Thus, you defeat your foe, the contract lets you loot your battlefields - you make a profit from the loot either as war material for your unit, or as something to sell and then buy what you need later. That's how I'd run it at least.But what is that battlefield salvage likely to be worth. After all it is all shot up. Especially in a Low tech environment. Further you have to not just salvage and sort it but you also now have to transport it. Yes a Unit will make money from this type of situation, but it is not assured, nor highly lucrative. Tanks with holes in them aren't worth much. smile.gif
First - count how much it costs to train a guy to minimal levels. Then compute how much it costs to arm him to the unit standards. Then, charge the transport costs directly against the employer himself. And, like Hammer's Slammers - authorize some bank to hold in escrow, the agreed upon payment with a negotiator lined up in case of a dispute. Include some sort of penalty clauses for anything injurious to your unit ahead of time.Now that is fine and good but what does it cost to train up a recruit? (That cost is not covered in the rules. smile.gif ) If you are waiting on some transport, or the new patron to provide transport you could end up like Falkenberg's legion. Stuck on a planet with no job and no prospects, so you have to take any job that comes along to get you off the planet.
If you want? I can dig up my old MERCENARIES booklet, plus STRIKER, plus any other stipulations you might have, and work on it as a spare time project. When do you need it by? <EDIT> Ooops Missed this. smile.gif
This is more an exercise in process and identifying potential problems before they come up. I can design Mercenary Units, come up with missions for them, etc. (I don't have a Merc background but I do have an intelligence and infantry background so I understand missions and mission parameters fairly well. smile.gif ) I am just trying to establish a good baseline for ticket pricing. To do that I have to first, figure out a decent formula to calculate what a unit's expenses are going to be. After that I will need to make a determination as to the frequency of tickets, and how a unit gets tickets in the first place. </EDIT>
clementk
November 27th, 2006, 08:20 PM
People may find the Mercenary Unit Ticket contest thread (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001132#000000) useful. Some practical matters were hashed out in the process. Mainly based on Book 4, Striker, and T20 along with real life military and mercenary experience of the judges.
aramis
November 28th, 2006, 12:51 AM
One other consideration for integral transports is mission types.
The units I ran for were nail-mission specialists. In at least one case, the Duke hired teams out to both sides for near-simultaneous missions; each came in with both sets of codes, just in case... and orders to not interfere with each other's missions. For this type of mission, get in, hit the target, get out, relying on trusted associates is a vital part of mission morale and operations. Part of the premium price.
For line infantry, no, integral transport makes no sense... you can hire companies for the costs of a nail mission elite spec-ops team. Nail missions are hired for their very deniability.
Another mission the Duke chose to field a team for was a dispatch from a field marshal, asking the duke for his assistance in ending a war by eradicating the head of the government, so that the successor could take over. The elite team jumps in, makes no "overt" moves, then last minute, having received their targeting, divert, drop, assassinate, and leave. Playing through the court intrigues following were a hoot.
The units I ran for were nail-mission specialists. In at least one case, the Duke hired teams out to both sides for near-simultaneous missions; each came in with both sets of codes, just in case... and orders to not interfere with each other's missions. For this type of mission, get in, hit the target, get out, relying on trusted associates is a vital part of mission morale and operations. Part of the premium price.
For line infantry, no, integral transport makes no sense... you can hire companies for the costs of a nail mission elite spec-ops team. Nail missions are hired for their very deniability.
Another mission the Duke chose to field a team for was a dispatch from a field marshal, asking the duke for his assistance in ending a war by eradicating the head of the government, so that the successor could take over. The elite team jumps in, makes no "overt" moves, then last minute, having received their targeting, divert, drop, assassinate, and leave. Playing through the court intrigues following were a hoot.
BetterThanLife
November 28th, 2006, 08:31 AM
For Line Infantry integrated transport makes no sense, Aramis? For small 2-8 man teams that can and probably should travel covertly using commercial transport, to avoid notice, limiting the unit to a couple of specialized courier ships makes sense. For a Line unit that is expected to deploy in larger numbers?
Example:
Grav Belt equipped Light Infantry Company. You can accept a ticket that is 3 parsecs away but you are on a backwater planet. How are you going to get 150 men and approximately 60 displacement tons of gear to the target zone? (That does include 4 air/rafts, 4 combat loads of ammo, 4 weeks of C-Rats, TL12 Combat Armor, but nothing heavier than a PGMP-12 for weapons.)
If you accept Low Berth passage for some of your troops, it would still take more than 3 trips on a subsidized liner, if you can get lucky enough to find one that is available for charter. With minimal turn around time, it would take you 8 weeks to make the transit. On the other hand, if you keep your leadership and medics awake, you could (using the two spare cutter modules to carry low berths and a little of your cargo space to catch the overflow.) move the entire company on a Single Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser. Instead of a minimum 2 months between tickets you now can run tickets with less than a month between them as long as they are a reasonable distance apart. (That is get the ticket, train, load up and travel up to 9 parsecs.) With your command staff awake you can refine your battle plan enroute.
Your Mercenary Unit is also more marketable as they can get there within a reasonable, defined, timeframe, with their gear. If they have to wait for transport or worse yet, find transport, they will take quite a bit longer and not be as marketable.
Your 2-8 man teams could always find passage. Moving a Company, requires transport or long periods of time between tickets. Typical starship encounter charts gives about a 20% chance of a ship encounter. (Any ship, not just an appropiate ship.) How long can you afford to sit around and wait for the right ship or combination of ships to move your unit to another destination?
Example:
Grav Belt equipped Light Infantry Company. You can accept a ticket that is 3 parsecs away but you are on a backwater planet. How are you going to get 150 men and approximately 60 displacement tons of gear to the target zone? (That does include 4 air/rafts, 4 combat loads of ammo, 4 weeks of C-Rats, TL12 Combat Armor, but nothing heavier than a PGMP-12 for weapons.)
If you accept Low Berth passage for some of your troops, it would still take more than 3 trips on a subsidized liner, if you can get lucky enough to find one that is available for charter. With minimal turn around time, it would take you 8 weeks to make the transit. On the other hand, if you keep your leadership and medics awake, you could (using the two spare cutter modules to carry low berths and a little of your cargo space to catch the overflow.) move the entire company on a Single Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser. Instead of a minimum 2 months between tickets you now can run tickets with less than a month between them as long as they are a reasonable distance apart. (That is get the ticket, train, load up and travel up to 9 parsecs.) With your command staff awake you can refine your battle plan enroute.
Your Mercenary Unit is also more marketable as they can get there within a reasonable, defined, timeframe, with their gear. If they have to wait for transport or worse yet, find transport, they will take quite a bit longer and not be as marketable.
Your 2-8 man teams could always find passage. Moving a Company, requires transport or long periods of time between tickets. Typical starship encounter charts gives about a 20% chance of a ship encounter. (Any ship, not just an appropiate ship.) How long can you afford to sit around and wait for the right ship or combination of ships to move your unit to another destination?
BetterThanLife
November 28th, 2006, 09:46 AM
I just thought about this. What are good ways for typical Mercenary Units to get tickets? Since communication is limited to the Speed of Ship, that would pose some issues in terms of getting the word out that you need Mercenaries. It would also make hiring Mercenaries Units quite a bit more difficult.
If you need a Mercenary Unit to accomplish a mission, you could:
1. Have a few on retainer, and send couriers to each of them and see who is available.
2. Post a ticket on the X-Boat Network and see who applies for the job. (Which is what many of the tickets look like.)
3. Hire individual Mercenaries and try to form them into a unit for your particular job.
4. Mercenary Units register with a broker. The broker then gets a request for a Merc Unit, and sends a Courier to the Merc Unit to give them notice of the job. The Broker gets a finder's fee off the top.
5. Mercenary Units Post their Brag Sheet and availability on the X-Boat network. They maintain a courier at the nearest X-Boat Station. A Client with a job offer simply sends the request via the X-Boat Network to the Mercenary Unit, or to several Mercenary Units that have availability that fits your time frame and capabilities that fit the job. The Courier can be a specialized ship or the Unit's inherent transport. (Which would also make supply runs for the unit.)
Looking at these. 3 is the fastest way to get troops but also likely to have the lowest success rate. 2 will get you what you want, but 2 is very public and has disadvantages, in that you have no idea who will respond. 1 will get you what you are looking for but is the most expensive and assumes that you will use Mercenary services on a regular basis. 4 and 5 strike me as the most likely.
5 makes the most sense for units that are Ground based units. Star Mercs would need a seperate courier craft or need to use a Broker.
Brokers would have to be trusted implicitedly by the unit.
For the seperate Courier craft, something along the lines of the Zhodani Leader Scout would be a good choice, especially for Star Merc outfits that are acting as escort or patrol craft among several worlds. For Ground units, something with the same jump capability as the Unit's transport, would be sufficient, though something faster would be a good idea for units that tend to operate away from the X-Boat network.
In areas wihtout X-Boat networks there will still be transportation hubs, though brokers would probably be more prevalent.
If you need a Mercenary Unit to accomplish a mission, you could:
1. Have a few on retainer, and send couriers to each of them and see who is available.
2. Post a ticket on the X-Boat Network and see who applies for the job. (Which is what many of the tickets look like.)
3. Hire individual Mercenaries and try to form them into a unit for your particular job.
4. Mercenary Units register with a broker. The broker then gets a request for a Merc Unit, and sends a Courier to the Merc Unit to give them notice of the job. The Broker gets a finder's fee off the top.
5. Mercenary Units Post their Brag Sheet and availability on the X-Boat network. They maintain a courier at the nearest X-Boat Station. A Client with a job offer simply sends the request via the X-Boat Network to the Mercenary Unit, or to several Mercenary Units that have availability that fits your time frame and capabilities that fit the job. The Courier can be a specialized ship or the Unit's inherent transport. (Which would also make supply runs for the unit.)
Looking at these. 3 is the fastest way to get troops but also likely to have the lowest success rate. 2 will get you what you want, but 2 is very public and has disadvantages, in that you have no idea who will respond. 1 will get you what you are looking for but is the most expensive and assumes that you will use Mercenary services on a regular basis. 4 and 5 strike me as the most likely.
5 makes the most sense for units that are Ground based units. Star Mercs would need a seperate courier craft or need to use a Broker.
Brokers would have to be trusted implicitedly by the unit.
For the seperate Courier craft, something along the lines of the Zhodani Leader Scout would be a good choice, especially for Star Merc outfits that are acting as escort or patrol craft among several worlds. For Ground units, something with the same jump capability as the Unit's transport, would be sufficient, though something faster would be a good idea for units that tend to operate away from the X-Boat network.
In areas wihtout X-Boat networks there will still be transportation hubs, though brokers would probably be more prevalent.
ravells
November 28th, 2006, 10:38 AM
If war is about to break out or has already broken out, presumably a good broker with his ear to the ground will approach the either of the adversaries and try to sell their mercs to them.
BetterThanLife
November 28th, 2006, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by ravs:
If war is about to break out or has already broken out, presumably a good broker with his ear to the ground will approach the either of the adversaries and try to sell their mercs to them. The problem you run into here is that Mercenary operations have to be planned ahead of time. For security operations, this is no big deal. Otherwise you are looking at a probable minimum of 2 months from the time you decide you want Mercs to actually having Mercs. But yes the concept of using Mercs can be proposed by a Broker or another agent of the Mercenary Unit. I am thinking that the owner of the Mercenary Unit is not likely to actually lead the unit in combat, the owner's job will primarily be to line up jobs. If the Owner is actually going to lead the unit then there will be a dedicated non-combat person, with each unit that will be looking for work while the unit is working. (And that person is unlikely to be the commander of the Mercenary Unit's Transport vessel either.)
If war is about to break out or has already broken out, presumably a good broker with his ear to the ground will approach the either of the adversaries and try to sell their mercs to them. The problem you run into here is that Mercenary operations have to be planned ahead of time. For security operations, this is no big deal. Otherwise you are looking at a probable minimum of 2 months from the time you decide you want Mercs to actually having Mercs. But yes the concept of using Mercs can be proposed by a Broker or another agent of the Mercenary Unit. I am thinking that the owner of the Mercenary Unit is not likely to actually lead the unit in combat, the owner's job will primarily be to line up jobs. If the Owner is actually going to lead the unit then there will be a dedicated non-combat person, with each unit that will be looking for work while the unit is working. (And that person is unlikely to be the commander of the Mercenary Unit's Transport vessel either.)
far-trader
November 28th, 2006, 11:55 AM
I've kinda thought that the usual setup would be that Chartered Mercenary Units* would be established on worlds/systems likely to hire them regularly enough to make it pay. Probably Balaknized governments.
* As all such are, in MTU at least. If you don't have an Imperial Charter you're operating outside Imperial Law, and that is Not Good.
This would be the place to make money as Mercs. Every little flare up provides nearly instant employment, often for both sides* and the side with the most cash will probably "win" (depending on how many native assests they are willing to sacrifice). No need for interstellar transports, heck you probably don't even need your own troop transports. Just use local infrastructure much of the time. Charter or scheduled.
* Usually opponents would hire from different Units, but not always, it is a business and there are no bad customers if they can pay.
A close second choice setup would be a hub world in an unstable subsector, such as a border region. This would be the base of operations and with all the regular traffic* you are easy to reach and can get on site just as quickly, probably a two week turnaround from the time somebody decides to hire some mercs to them landing on the ground. This setup is where you'd find your typical Mercenary Cruisers though they'd often be as the lead force with other assets coming shortly after on commercial scheduled ships or charters.
* The encounter tables are not really a good indicator of the actual system traffic, at least not as a direct measure as you used it BTL smile.gif You need to think of it as 20% (or whatever) chance of another ship being there whenever a ship enters or leaves the system (the way I recall the table). That implies a lot of traffic. Nowhere near some of the figures often used imo (of thousands of ships or more daily) but much more than a slim chance of one ship. But that is another thread...
Of course the ideal place to open up shop as a Merc would combine the two. A nice hot Balkanized world in the center of a wild border zone.
In all these cases you'd only have one Merc outfit if it wasn't really paying the bills (and they'd leave soon too, one way or another). If there's a profit to made there'd be comeptition and rivals. Remember, real Mercs are in it for the profits, just like real Merchants.
Anywho, just my thoughts.
* As all such are, in MTU at least. If you don't have an Imperial Charter you're operating outside Imperial Law, and that is Not Good.
This would be the place to make money as Mercs. Every little flare up provides nearly instant employment, often for both sides* and the side with the most cash will probably "win" (depending on how many native assests they are willing to sacrifice). No need for interstellar transports, heck you probably don't even need your own troop transports. Just use local infrastructure much of the time. Charter or scheduled.
* Usually opponents would hire from different Units, but not always, it is a business and there are no bad customers if they can pay.
A close second choice setup would be a hub world in an unstable subsector, such as a border region. This would be the base of operations and with all the regular traffic* you are easy to reach and can get on site just as quickly, probably a two week turnaround from the time somebody decides to hire some mercs to them landing on the ground. This setup is where you'd find your typical Mercenary Cruisers though they'd often be as the lead force with other assets coming shortly after on commercial scheduled ships or charters.
* The encounter tables are not really a good indicator of the actual system traffic, at least not as a direct measure as you used it BTL smile.gif You need to think of it as 20% (or whatever) chance of another ship being there whenever a ship enters or leaves the system (the way I recall the table). That implies a lot of traffic. Nowhere near some of the figures often used imo (of thousands of ships or more daily) but much more than a slim chance of one ship. But that is another thread...
Of course the ideal place to open up shop as a Merc would combine the two. A nice hot Balkanized world in the center of a wild border zone.
In all these cases you'd only have one Merc outfit if it wasn't really paying the bills (and they'd leave soon too, one way or another). If there's a profit to made there'd be comeptition and rivals. Remember, real Mercs are in it for the profits, just like real Merchants.
Anywho, just my thoughts.
BetterThanLife
November 28th, 2006, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by far-trader:
I've kinda thought that the usual setup would be that Chartered Mercenary Units* would be established on worlds/systems likely to hire them regularly enough to make it pay. Probably Balaknized governments.
This would be the place to make money as Mercs. Every little flare up provides nearly instant employment, often for both sides* and the side with the most cash will probably "win" (depending on how many native assests they are willing to sacrifice). No need for interstellar transports, heck you probably don't even need your own troop transports. Just use local infrastructure much of the time. Charter or scheduled.
Long running internal wars will eventually be won by one side or the other, or will destabilize the planet and/or incur such collateral damage to the point that Imperial intervention, or intervention and conquest from a nearby system is probable. Though EA7 (Merc Heaven) is an example of such a situation, even it isn't necessarily designed as a war that lasts years. Most canon tickets, to date, are short duration and one time deals on that particular planet. That tends to reflect the blowing off steam allowed flavor of the Imperium. Further these brushfire short duration wars are likely to occur anywhere in the Imperium, not just border or frontier areas.
* As all such are, in MTU at least. If you don't have an Imperial Charter you're operating outside Imperial Law, and that is Not Good.Absolutely. No question here. I have gone so far as to set up rules for gaining an Imperial Charter for a Mercenary Unit and restrictions that may or may not come with the Charter.
* Usually opponents would hire from different Units, but not always, it is a business and there are no bad customers if they can pay.
A close second choice setup would be a hub world in an unstable subsector, such as a border region. This would be the base of operations and with all the regular traffic* you are easy to reach and can get on site just as quickly, probably a two week turnaround from the time somebody decides to hire some mercs to them landing on the ground. This setup is where you'd find your typical Mercenary Cruisers though they'd often be as the lead force with other assets coming shortly after on commercial scheduled ships or charters.I think that a hub world would be the best point of contact for a Merc Unit. And their regular base of operations. That doesn't mean that the Unit will be there, but it is where they can be contacted.
* The encounter tables are not really a good indicator of the actual system traffic, at least not as a direct measure as you used it BTL smile.gif You need to think of it as 20% (or whatever) chance of another ship being there whenever a ship enters or leaves the system (the way I recall the table). That implies a lot of traffic. Nowhere near some of the figures often used imo (of thousands of ships or more daily) but much more than a slim chance of one ship. But that is another thread...Actually it has bearing in this thread as well. If the encounter tables are not an indication of traffic level and types of ships likely to be encountered then what should be used? I am not saying they are the best choice to find an appropiate ship, but there lacks an alternative rule in the books. (Unless there is something in GURPS, which is definitely not OTU for trade.) But even if traffic is higher, finding the right capacity available, headed in the right direction, is still going to be a major problem for any unit above Platoon level. Especially if the unit is not at a transportation hub. Even at a transportation hub this isn't as simple as buying 150 airline tickets. None of the Standard designs, which IMTU equates to the most common ships in space, have the kind of capacity that you need to move a Mercenary company. Especially if the company is something like a Lift Infantry Company or equivalent to a current US Cavalry Troop.
Of course the ideal place to open up shop as a Merc would combine the two. A nice hot Balkanized world in the center of a wild border zone.Actually just a high traffic high population piece of the Imperium would be fine. Especially if you have J3 transports available.
In all these cases you'd only have one Merc outfit if it wasn't really paying the bills (and they'd leave soon too, one way or another). If there's a profit to made there'd be comeptition and rivals. Remember, real Mercs are in it for the profits, just like real Merchants.
Anywho, just my thoughts. They are good thoughts. While sending an advance party to get the actual situation on the ground conduct final negotiations for the ticket and hash out the details before the main body arrives is an interesting idea, committing something as small as a company piecemeal is not a good idea.
I've kinda thought that the usual setup would be that Chartered Mercenary Units* would be established on worlds/systems likely to hire them regularly enough to make it pay. Probably Balaknized governments.
This would be the place to make money as Mercs. Every little flare up provides nearly instant employment, often for both sides* and the side with the most cash will probably "win" (depending on how many native assests they are willing to sacrifice). No need for interstellar transports, heck you probably don't even need your own troop transports. Just use local infrastructure much of the time. Charter or scheduled.
Long running internal wars will eventually be won by one side or the other, or will destabilize the planet and/or incur such collateral damage to the point that Imperial intervention, or intervention and conquest from a nearby system is probable. Though EA7 (Merc Heaven) is an example of such a situation, even it isn't necessarily designed as a war that lasts years. Most canon tickets, to date, are short duration and one time deals on that particular planet. That tends to reflect the blowing off steam allowed flavor of the Imperium. Further these brushfire short duration wars are likely to occur anywhere in the Imperium, not just border or frontier areas.
* As all such are, in MTU at least. If you don't have an Imperial Charter you're operating outside Imperial Law, and that is Not Good.Absolutely. No question here. I have gone so far as to set up rules for gaining an Imperial Charter for a Mercenary Unit and restrictions that may or may not come with the Charter.
* Usually opponents would hire from different Units, but not always, it is a business and there are no bad customers if they can pay.
A close second choice setup would be a hub world in an unstable subsector, such as a border region. This would be the base of operations and with all the regular traffic* you are easy to reach and can get on site just as quickly, probably a two week turnaround from the time somebody decides to hire some mercs to them landing on the ground. This setup is where you'd find your typical Mercenary Cruisers though they'd often be as the lead force with other assets coming shortly after on commercial scheduled ships or charters.I think that a hub world would be the best point of contact for a Merc Unit. And their regular base of operations. That doesn't mean that the Unit will be there, but it is where they can be contacted.
* The encounter tables are not really a good indicator of the actual system traffic, at least not as a direct measure as you used it BTL smile.gif You need to think of it as 20% (or whatever) chance of another ship being there whenever a ship enters or leaves the system (the way I recall the table). That implies a lot of traffic. Nowhere near some of the figures often used imo (of thousands of ships or more daily) but much more than a slim chance of one ship. But that is another thread...Actually it has bearing in this thread as well. If the encounter tables are not an indication of traffic level and types of ships likely to be encountered then what should be used? I am not saying they are the best choice to find an appropiate ship, but there lacks an alternative rule in the books. (Unless there is something in GURPS, which is definitely not OTU for trade.) But even if traffic is higher, finding the right capacity available, headed in the right direction, is still going to be a major problem for any unit above Platoon level. Especially if the unit is not at a transportation hub. Even at a transportation hub this isn't as simple as buying 150 airline tickets. None of the Standard designs, which IMTU equates to the most common ships in space, have the kind of capacity that you need to move a Mercenary company. Especially if the company is something like a Lift Infantry Company or equivalent to a current US Cavalry Troop.
Of course the ideal place to open up shop as a Merc would combine the two. A nice hot Balkanized world in the center of a wild border zone.Actually just a high traffic high population piece of the Imperium would be fine. Especially if you have J3 transports available.
In all these cases you'd only have one Merc outfit if it wasn't really paying the bills (and they'd leave soon too, one way or another). If there's a profit to made there'd be comeptition and rivals. Remember, real Mercs are in it for the profits, just like real Merchants.
Anywho, just my thoughts. They are good thoughts. While sending an advance party to get the actual situation on the ground conduct final negotiations for the ticket and hash out the details before the main body arrives is an interesting idea, committing something as small as a company piecemeal is not a good idea.
aramis
November 28th, 2006, 09:16 PM
BTL: A company isn't a line infantry unit... it's part of one.
The costs of moving a company by integral transport arm exceed the value of hiring out a subbie and using "SR Pallets" (A stateroom in a 4Td cargo box) to double occ them.
I can see the SR Pallets as unit equipment (instant field HQ). I can't see the ship for a line infantry role, where expected formations are in regiments, and durations of deployment are likely to be months at a time in situ.
And there ARE exceptions for non-line infantry. Elite units. Spec-Ops. Rapid Deployment Forces.
Let's see, at 180+Td (rules version dependent), a Type R can mount your 60 Td of cargo, and 120Td of assorted SR pallets. Enlisted in 4Td bunkrooms (4 man bays), NCO's in 4Td SR's (DO)
Line them up, so the aisle is open down them, and do PT running through the central aisles.
Officers might have personal ones.
Low berth modules might also be used.
Heck, I can see 8-man 4TD "half-bunk bunkrooms"; a sqaud box!
The costs of moving a company by integral transport arm exceed the value of hiring out a subbie and using "SR Pallets" (A stateroom in a 4Td cargo box) to double occ them.
I can see the SR Pallets as unit equipment (instant field HQ). I can't see the ship for a line infantry role, where expected formations are in regiments, and durations of deployment are likely to be months at a time in situ.
And there ARE exceptions for non-line infantry. Elite units. Spec-Ops. Rapid Deployment Forces.
Let's see, at 180+Td (rules version dependent), a Type R can mount your 60 Td of cargo, and 120Td of assorted SR pallets. Enlisted in 4Td bunkrooms (4 man bays), NCO's in 4Td SR's (DO)
Line them up, so the aisle is open down them, and do PT running through the central aisles.
Officers might have personal ones.
Low berth modules might also be used.
Heck, I can see 8-man 4TD "half-bunk bunkrooms"; a sqaud box!
BetterThanLife
November 28th, 2006, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Aramis:
BTL: A company isn't a line infantry unit... it's part of one.
The costs of moving a company by integral transport arm exceed the value of hiring out a subbie and using "SR Pallets" (A stateroom in a 4Td cargo box) to double occ them.
I can see the SR Pallets as unit equipment (instant field HQ). I can't see the ship for a line infantry role, where expected formations are in regiments, and durations of deployment are likely to be months at a time in situ.
And there ARE exceptions for non-line infantry. Elite units. Spec-Ops. Rapid Deployment Forces.
Let's see, at 180+Td (rules version dependent), a Type R can mount your 60 Td of cargo, and 120Td of assorted SR pallets. Enlisted in 4Td bunkrooms (4 man bays), NCO's in 4Td SR's (DO)
Line them up, so the aisle is open down them, and do PT running through the central aisles.
Officers might have personal ones.
Low berth modules might also be used.
Heck, I can see 8-man 4TD "half-bunk bunkrooms"; a sqaud box! Line Units definition depend on what you are talking about. A Line Unit is a combat unit, as opposed to a rear echelon unit. Now in current parlance the smallest unit that is designed for extended operations is a Brigade. (Which is the nominal difference between a Brigade and a Regiment.) But any front line combat unit can be referred to as a line unit.
Now something of note is that More than 75% of canon Mercenary tickets are Platoon to Company Tickets. Roughly half of all canon tickets are Platoon Tickets.
As for transport using containers. They are not quite as expensive as buying a ship, but if you add paying for the charters to move these containers, you might as well buy the ship. For moving a Company using the containers you need in excess of 200 tons of containers plus unit equipment. Still going to require a minimum of two Sub Liners. You are also going to have to hire a ship with the connections for the containers, or for additional low berths. (Or do you believe that low berths or living modules are totally self contained?)
In either case inherent transport, in the long run is a better investment. Especially if that inherent transport, doubles as the Unit's Courier, and supply vessel. A Platoon or Company can't sustain itself in the field for long periods, and in most cases the unit will be equipped to a higher TL than can be supported on the world so major equipment repair and ammunition resupply will have to come from elsewhere. Further if the model I discussed earlier about maintaining comms at the nearest Communication Hub, (Which within the Imperium, most systems are within 3 parsecs of an X-Boat route.) while the unit is in the field this also makes sense.
Multiple Ships for a Company makes further sense as the unit can then hire out seperate platoons, when the Company can't be hired out as single Unit.
Also, like I said earlier, while low berths may be more economical, they might be viewed as bad for morale. After all Low Berths are how a unit travels on Repatriation Bonds or for losers.
BTL: A company isn't a line infantry unit... it's part of one.
The costs of moving a company by integral transport arm exceed the value of hiring out a subbie and using "SR Pallets" (A stateroom in a 4Td cargo box) to double occ them.
I can see the SR Pallets as unit equipment (instant field HQ). I can't see the ship for a line infantry role, where expected formations are in regiments, and durations of deployment are likely to be months at a time in situ.
And there ARE exceptions for non-line infantry. Elite units. Spec-Ops. Rapid Deployment Forces.
Let's see, at 180+Td (rules version dependent), a Type R can mount your 60 Td of cargo, and 120Td of assorted SR pallets. Enlisted in 4Td bunkrooms (4 man bays), NCO's in 4Td SR's (DO)
Line them up, so the aisle is open down them, and do PT running through the central aisles.
Officers might have personal ones.
Low berth modules might also be used.
Heck, I can see 8-man 4TD "half-bunk bunkrooms"; a sqaud box! Line Units definition depend on what you are talking about. A Line Unit is a combat unit, as opposed to a rear echelon unit. Now in current parlance the smallest unit that is designed for extended operations is a Brigade. (Which is the nominal difference between a Brigade and a Regiment.) But any front line combat unit can be referred to as a line unit.
Now something of note is that More than 75% of canon Mercenary tickets are Platoon to Company Tickets. Roughly half of all canon tickets are Platoon Tickets.
As for transport using containers. They are not quite as expensive as buying a ship, but if you add paying for the charters to move these containers, you might as well buy the ship. For moving a Company using the containers you need in excess of 200 tons of containers plus unit equipment. Still going to require a minimum of two Sub Liners. You are also going to have to hire a ship with the connections for the containers, or for additional low berths. (Or do you believe that low berths or living modules are totally self contained?)
In either case inherent transport, in the long run is a better investment. Especially if that inherent transport, doubles as the Unit's Courier, and supply vessel. A Platoon or Company can't sustain itself in the field for long periods, and in most cases the unit will be equipped to a higher TL than can be supported on the world so major equipment repair and ammunition resupply will have to come from elsewhere. Further if the model I discussed earlier about maintaining comms at the nearest Communication Hub, (Which within the Imperium, most systems are within 3 parsecs of an X-Boat route.) while the unit is in the field this also makes sense.
Multiple Ships for a Company makes further sense as the unit can then hire out seperate platoons, when the Company can't be hired out as single Unit.
Also, like I said earlier, while low berths may be more economical, they might be viewed as bad for morale. After all Low Berths are how a unit travels on Repatriation Bonds or for losers.
Icosahedron
November 29th, 2006, 03:29 AM
Aramis, I like your SD pallets. I can't believe I've never thought of them. I think their modular nature would make them more than the standard 4dt though, and as BTL suggests, they may need their own hook-ups and plumbing extensions. Personally, I'd make them 6dt.
Apologies for going off-topic guys, just thinking aloud here. smile.gif
Apologies for going off-topic guys, just thinking aloud here. smile.gif
BetterThanLife
November 29th, 2006, 05:56 AM
A Couple of other points. How is 4DTons enough for 8 guys? Wouldn't that be more like 16 DTons for 8 guys?
Second is that a Type R is only Jump-1. Very slow moving and making many places inaccessable. (And you still need two of them to move a Company.)
Second is that a Type R is only Jump-1. Very slow moving and making many places inaccessable. (And you still need two of them to move a Company.)
mbrinkhues
November 29th, 2006, 07:44 AM
Since those modules are for Mercenaries how about this:
The quarter modules come in standard 4dt containers (IIRC the biggest standard size in GT) that can be lashed down in a standard cargo hold. To build a quarter for a platoon (48) soldiers one needs:
+ 5 Quarters containers each with an 8 person bunkroom
+ 1 Life support unit that is hooked up to the ships life support and supplements it. The module is not a full life support unit and on the ground only acts as a heater/air filter system
+ 1 Sanitation module with showers etc
+ 1 Galley module with food storage/preparation
+ 2 Connection module (Airlock, passageway)
for a total of 40dt minimum per platoon.
Most troops in for a longer stay (more than 2 weeks) tend to add more quarter modules. A typical setup is
+ 10 quarter modules
+ 1 Life support module
+ 1 Sanitation module
+ 1 Galley module
+ 1 Gym-Module (Weigtmaschines etc)
+ 3 Connection modules
for 68dt per platoon.
The modules can be unloaded and with the addition of a power plant module used as a base on planets with a breathable (tainted is acceptable) athmosphere. The connection modules are optional but proper empty space between the containers must be provided and steps/ladders are necessary for entry.
Each container-module has door/connection points at the short ends, the connection modules have two doors on each long end, one door on one short end and a small airlock on the other.
Alternate modules exist like:
+ Power generation module
Either a small fusion reactor, Radio-Thermal Generator or classic turbine generator. One is enough per 20-50 containers depending on type
+ Weapons storage/maintenance
Stronger walls and only one door module
+ Command Module
Used as a small command center or radio room
+ Medic module
A mobile MASH in a box. Enough space for two operating tables and some medical stores
The quarter modules come in standard 4dt containers (IIRC the biggest standard size in GT) that can be lashed down in a standard cargo hold. To build a quarter for a platoon (48) soldiers one needs:
+ 5 Quarters containers each with an 8 person bunkroom
+ 1 Life support unit that is hooked up to the ships life support and supplements it. The module is not a full life support unit and on the ground only acts as a heater/air filter system
+ 1 Sanitation module with showers etc
+ 1 Galley module with food storage/preparation
+ 2 Connection module (Airlock, passageway)
for a total of 40dt minimum per platoon.
Most troops in for a longer stay (more than 2 weeks) tend to add more quarter modules. A typical setup is
+ 10 quarter modules
+ 1 Life support module
+ 1 Sanitation module
+ 1 Galley module
+ 1 Gym-Module (Weigtmaschines etc)
+ 3 Connection modules
for 68dt per platoon.
The modules can be unloaded and with the addition of a power plant module used as a base on planets with a breathable (tainted is acceptable) athmosphere. The connection modules are optional but proper empty space between the containers must be provided and steps/ladders are necessary for entry.
Each container-module has door/connection points at the short ends, the connection modules have two doors on each long end, one door on one short end and a small airlock on the other.
Alternate modules exist like:
+ Power generation module
Either a small fusion reactor, Radio-Thermal Generator or classic turbine generator. One is enough per 20-50 containers depending on type
+ Weapons storage/maintenance
Stronger walls and only one door module
+ Command Module
Used as a small command center or radio room
+ Medic module
A mobile MASH in a box. Enough space for two operating tables and some medical stores
mbrinkhues
November 29th, 2006, 08:00 AM
BGG:
I agree that the type R is likely the least useful ship as a merc transporter. The most useful of the "original" crafts would IMHO be a 600dt Type M with it's high jump. Put the officers in the cabins, fill the (still sizeable) hold with troops. You still need two but there are few places you can't go. Wealth Mercs can try to hire an Imperialines 2000dt J2 frighter.
From the T20 crafts the "Lorimar" class sounds like a useful craft to charter.
I agree that the type R is likely the least useful ship as a merc transporter. The most useful of the "original" crafts would IMHO be a 600dt Type M with it's high jump. Put the officers in the cabins, fill the (still sizeable) hold with troops. You still need two but there are few places you can't go. Wealth Mercs can try to hire an Imperialines 2000dt J2 frighter.
From the T20 crafts the "Lorimar" class sounds like a useful craft to charter.
BetterThanLife
November 29th, 2006, 08:10 AM
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter. Now a Merc Unit could buy Type M ships, and it may make sense for them to do so, but finding one going the right way and available is another story. Further getting from the ship to the surface if you are using Type-M ships is another issue. (As they are not streamlined, or at best partially streamlined and only have a launch as small craft.)
Golan2072
November 29th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter.Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions.
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter.Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions.
Golan2072
November 29th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter.Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions.
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter.Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions.
BetterThanLife
November 29th, 2006, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter.Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. Though in this case are they also subsidizing the Inherent Transport?
Further a Polity that has Subsidized ships might send them to go collect the Mercenary unit. (Though that doubles the time required to get the unit on the ground and actually earning their pay.)
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
One issue about the Type M. They are called Subsidized Liners for a reason. They can't make a profit under the standard rules so need a subsidy for at least the first 40 years. If a ship is Subsidized then it is following a route and will not be available for charter.Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions. </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely. Though in this case are they also subsidizing the Inherent Transport?
Further a Polity that has Subsidized ships might send them to go collect the Mercenary unit. (Though that doubles the time required to get the unit on the ground and actually earning their pay.)
mbrinkhues
November 29th, 2006, 09:36 AM
I agree, the Type M has the same basic problem as the Typ R, it needs the subsidize to be paid off. But after that the ship is on the market and can be used as a free ship.
Since the Typ M is a TTL12 or TTL 13 craft, it should be very common by now and it is quite likely the base of many variants (a cargo hauler being the first that comes to mind). So there should be quite a few "free" Typ M around.
As for "getting the troops down" that can be a problem. Some Typ M can land (the MT variant IIRC) some can not. Does anyone know if the Admiral Bertili / Vigilanti conversion is pre- or post Rebellion?
Since the Typ M is a TTL12 or TTL 13 craft, it should be very common by now and it is quite likely the base of many variants (a cargo hauler being the first that comes to mind). So there should be quite a few "free" Typ M around.
As for "getting the troops down" that can be a problem. Some Typ M can land (the MT variant IIRC) some can not. Does anyone know if the Admiral Bertili / Vigilanti conversion is pre- or post Rebellion?
BetterThanLife
November 29th, 2006, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
I agree, the Type M has the same basic problem as the Typ R, it needs the subsidize to be paid off. But after that the ship is on the market and can be used as a free ship.
Since the Typ M is a TTL12 or TTL 13 craft, it should be very common by now and it is quite likely the base of many variants (a cargo hauler being the first that comes to mind). So there should be quite a few "free" Typ M around.
As for "getting the troops down" that can be a problem. Some Typ M can land (the MT variant IIRC) some can not. Does anyone know if the Admiral Bertili / Vigilanti conversion is pre- or post Rebellion? Actually a Type R can make a profit under the standard haul freight and passenger model. Most Jump-1 merchants, that are actually designed as merchants as their primary purpose, can.
Type M Mercenary Variants should be easy enough to convert. I even saw a Type A2 Mercenary variant once. The Type P is explained away in T20, not sure about other Traveller rulesets, though definitely not in CT, as a 400 Ton Mercenary transport. smile.gif But if the ship is converted then it isn't a standard ship that the Mercenary unit on the ground can flag down for a lift. smile.gif
I agree, the Type M has the same basic problem as the Typ R, it needs the subsidize to be paid off. But after that the ship is on the market and can be used as a free ship.
Since the Typ M is a TTL12 or TTL 13 craft, it should be very common by now and it is quite likely the base of many variants (a cargo hauler being the first that comes to mind). So there should be quite a few "free" Typ M around.
As for "getting the troops down" that can be a problem. Some Typ M can land (the MT variant IIRC) some can not. Does anyone know if the Admiral Bertili / Vigilanti conversion is pre- or post Rebellion? Actually a Type R can make a profit under the standard haul freight and passenger model. Most Jump-1 merchants, that are actually designed as merchants as their primary purpose, can.
Type M Mercenary Variants should be easy enough to convert. I even saw a Type A2 Mercenary variant once. The Type P is explained away in T20, not sure about other Traveller rulesets, though definitely not in CT, as a 400 Ton Mercenary transport. smile.gif But if the ship is converted then it isn't a standard ship that the Mercenary unit on the ground can flag down for a lift. smile.gif
BetterThanLife
November 29th, 2006, 09:52 AM
So with or without the Inherent transport, is my formula for calculating Mercenary unit expenses a good estimate? Does anyone have a different idea?
Use 10% of equipment cost per year (maintenance, combat losses and ammo), minus organic starships unless the starship was expected to take an active role in the unit's missions, plus salaries x2, (Have to account for bonuses.) plus 20% of personal equipment cost (to amortize over 5 years), plus 10% of major equipment cost (to amortize over 10 years), plus organic starship (if any) mortgage cost, plus organic starship (again if any) maintenance, per year.
Use 10% of equipment cost per year (maintenance, combat losses and ammo), minus organic starships unless the starship was expected to take an active role in the unit's missions, plus salaries x2, (Have to account for bonuses.) plus 20% of personal equipment cost (to amortize over 5 years), plus 10% of major equipment cost (to amortize over 10 years), plus organic starship (if any) mortgage cost, plus organic starship (again if any) maintenance, per year.
mbrinkhues
November 29th, 2006, 10:29 AM
I would add a certain amount (between 0.5 and 2 percent) "risk insurance" for any organic starship even if it is just a transport. The enemy might want to kill off your resupply craft and attack it anyway.
BetterThanLife
November 29th, 2006, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
I would add a certain amount (between 0.5 and 2 percent) "risk insurance" for any organic starship even if it is just a transport. The enemy might want to kill off your resupply craft and attack it anyway. Or perhaps amortize it over a shorter period. (This way if it does get taken out you can afford to replace it sooner.)
I would add a certain amount (between 0.5 and 2 percent) "risk insurance" for any organic starship even if it is just a transport. The enemy might want to kill off your resupply craft and attack it anyway. Or perhaps amortize it over a shorter period. (This way if it does get taken out you can afford to replace it sooner.)
jalberti
November 29th, 2006, 07:08 PM
This is a good topic. Mercenary campaigns are ones I have enjoyed the most in Traveller. I have liked company to battalion sized units, because it combines my hobby of wargaming with Traveller.
In thinking about the general low tech level of many worlds, I can see the desire of nations on those worlds or companies/interests from outside those worlds wanting to hire a higher tech (TL12+) experienced unit and pay top money for it. Every military commander wants a sure victory and having a higher tech experienced and sizeable unit will help a long way towards it. Winning a war quickly will save more money. A merc unit can help to get a quck victory. I can see a company sized TL 12 unit getting at least MCr100+ a year for extended campaigns, or a quick MCr10+ for a month long mission.
In thinking about the general low tech level of many worlds, I can see the desire of nations on those worlds or companies/interests from outside those worlds wanting to hire a higher tech (TL12+) experienced unit and pay top money for it. Every military commander wants a sure victory and having a higher tech experienced and sizeable unit will help a long way towards it. Winning a war quickly will save more money. A merc unit can help to get a quck victory. I can see a company sized TL 12 unit getting at least MCr100+ a year for extended campaigns, or a quick MCr10+ for a month long mission.
Piper
November 29th, 2006, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
So with or without the Inherent transport, is my formula for calculating Mercenary unit expenses a good estimate? Does anyone have a different idea?You might want to consider the effect of discount pricing on your amortization rates (Book 4, page 43)
As an aside, has anyone considered doping the troops with fast drug and stacking them on cots like cordwood? You could probably get 20 or 30 troops in a single stateroom.
So with or without the Inherent transport, is my formula for calculating Mercenary unit expenses a good estimate? Does anyone have a different idea?You might want to consider the effect of discount pricing on your amortization rates (Book 4, page 43)
As an aside, has anyone considered doping the troops with fast drug and stacking them on cots like cordwood? You could probably get 20 or 30 troops in a single stateroom.
sinbadsam
November 29th, 2006, 08:59 PM
Has anyone considered the RW model of Merc Units "Executive Outcomes" that was used in RW Africa.
From what little I have been able to read about them, they made a profit, and did quite well as a merc unit also.
Also if it was possible the "Merc Units" being used in Iraq now by the various Governments and Corps could be used too.
From what little I have been able to read about them, they made a profit, and did quite well as a merc unit also.
Also if it was possible the "Merc Units" being used in Iraq now by the various Governments and Corps could be used too.
BetterThanLife
November 30th, 2006, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by Diocletian:
This is a good topic. Mercenary campaigns are ones I have enjoyed the most in Traveller. I have liked company to battalion sized units, because it combines my hobby of wargaming with Traveller.
In thinking about the general low tech level of many worlds, I can see the desire of nations on those worlds or companies/interests from outside those worlds wanting to hire a higher tech (TL12+) experienced unit and pay top money for it. Every military commander wants a sure victory and having a higher tech experienced and sizeable unit will help a long way towards it. Winning a war quickly will save more money. A merc unit can help to get a quck victory. I can see a company sized TL 12 unit getting at least MCr100+ a year for extended campaigns, or a quick MCr10+ for a month long mission. The issue here is that most Company tickets available in Canon are in the neighborhood of either double standard salaries or MCr1. The Platoon Tickets about the same or more. But it is difficult to determine a fair price until we determine a reasonable way to calculate expenses.
This is a good topic. Mercenary campaigns are ones I have enjoyed the most in Traveller. I have liked company to battalion sized units, because it combines my hobby of wargaming with Traveller.
In thinking about the general low tech level of many worlds, I can see the desire of nations on those worlds or companies/interests from outside those worlds wanting to hire a higher tech (TL12+) experienced unit and pay top money for it. Every military commander wants a sure victory and having a higher tech experienced and sizeable unit will help a long way towards it. Winning a war quickly will save more money. A merc unit can help to get a quck victory. I can see a company sized TL 12 unit getting at least MCr100+ a year for extended campaigns, or a quick MCr10+ for a month long mission. The issue here is that most Company tickets available in Canon are in the neighborhood of either double standard salaries or MCr1. The Platoon Tickets about the same or more. But it is difficult to determine a fair price until we determine a reasonable way to calculate expenses.
Piper
November 30th, 2006, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
The issue here is that most Company tickets available in Canon are in the neighborhood of either double standard salaries or MCr1.Those numbers seem way too low.
Sounds like you need to change "canon" sources.
Book 4 suggested minimum: Cr60000 per month or part thereof per platoon with all maintenance provided by the patron.
Striker battalion ticket: MCr30 for a battalion, logistics provided, munitions and spares discounted 90%.
Company-sized commando mission: MCr3 with a MCr2 success bonus. Transport financed by patron with a 10% of value bonus for equipment returned intact.
Reinforced battalion (TL 9 or 10, mechanized) MCr50. Indents allowed up to MCr30 up front to purchase equipment which you can keep if you win.
Company-sized security mission: Cr500000, transport supplied by patron.
The issue here is that most Company tickets available in Canon are in the neighborhood of either double standard salaries or MCr1.Those numbers seem way too low.
Sounds like you need to change "canon" sources.
Book 4 suggested minimum: Cr60000 per month or part thereof per platoon with all maintenance provided by the patron.
Striker battalion ticket: MCr30 for a battalion, logistics provided, munitions and spares discounted 90%.
Company-sized commando mission: MCr3 with a MCr2 success bonus. Transport financed by patron with a 10% of value bonus for equipment returned intact.
Reinforced battalion (TL 9 or 10, mechanized) MCr50. Indents allowed up to MCr30 up front to purchase equipment which you can keep if you win.
Company-sized security mission: Cr500000, transport supplied by patron.
BetterThanLife
November 30th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
The issue here is that most Company tickets available in Canon are in the neighborhood of either double standard salaries or MCr1.Those numbers seem way too low.
Sounds like you need to change "canon" sources.
Book 4 suggested minimum: Cr60000 per month or part thereof per platoon with all maintenance provided by the patron.
Striker battalion ticket: MCr30 for a battalion, logistics provided, munitions and spares discounted 90%.
Company-sized commando mission: MCr3 with a MCr2 success bonus. Transport financed by patron with a 10% of value bonus for equipment returned intact.
Reinforced battalion (TL 9 or 10, mechanized) MCr50. Indents allowed up to MCr30 up front to purchase equipment which you can keep if you win.
Company-sized security mission: Cr500000, transport supplied by patron. </font>[/QUOTE]76 Patrons is the Canon source I was quoting. I knew there were some in LBB4 but didn't have it handy. smile.gif
I agree it is low, but many of the tickets are priced with no actual accounting for the Merc unit expenses.
My favorite was one in the Starfall playtest that was a StarMerc ticket which was supposed to be an Anti-Piracy Q-Ship Sweep taking up several months with a payoff of KCr500 or something similar.
It is the primary reason I started this thread.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
The issue here is that most Company tickets available in Canon are in the neighborhood of either double standard salaries or MCr1.Those numbers seem way too low.
Sounds like you need to change "canon" sources.
Book 4 suggested minimum: Cr60000 per month or part thereof per platoon with all maintenance provided by the patron.
Striker battalion ticket: MCr30 for a battalion, logistics provided, munitions and spares discounted 90%.
Company-sized commando mission: MCr3 with a MCr2 success bonus. Transport financed by patron with a 10% of value bonus for equipment returned intact.
Reinforced battalion (TL 9 or 10, mechanized) MCr50. Indents allowed up to MCr30 up front to purchase equipment which you can keep if you win.
Company-sized security mission: Cr500000, transport supplied by patron. </font>[/QUOTE]76 Patrons is the Canon source I was quoting. I knew there were some in LBB4 but didn't have it handy. smile.gif
I agree it is low, but many of the tickets are priced with no actual accounting for the Merc unit expenses.
My favorite was one in the Starfall playtest that was a StarMerc ticket which was supposed to be an Anti-Piracy Q-Ship Sweep taking up several months with a payoff of KCr500 or something similar.
It is the primary reason I started this thread.
Piper
November 30th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Your basic formula seems like a fair starting point. To determine actual cost, I'd suggest doubling that figure and adding in an amount to cover expected losses; 10% or 20% of equipment value depending on anticipated opposition.
A platoon with 4 G-carriers might reasonably expect to lose one (or more) if the opposition is serious. At MCr1 each, losing a single carrier can eat up all your profits if the ticket fee is too low.
A platoon with 4 G-carriers might reasonably expect to lose one (or more) if the opposition is serious. At MCr1 each, losing a single carrier can eat up all your profits if the ticket fee is too low.
BetterThanLife
December 1st, 2006, 12:59 PM
Originally posted by Piper:
Your basic formula seems like a fair starting point. To determine actual cost, I'd suggest doubling that figure and adding in an amount to cover expected losses; 10% or 20% of equipment value depending on anticipated opposition.
A platoon with 4 G-carriers might reasonably expect to lose one (or more) if the opposition is serious. At MCr1 each, losing a single carrier can eat up all your profits if the ticket fee is too low. The formula is set to pay 10% for maintenance and ammo and a further 10 to 20% (depending on the expense of the item) for the item cost itself. If you lose more than 20% of your low cost items or 10% of your high cost items per year then the formula is incorrect. However if you expect to lose vehicles or other high ticket items on a regular basis, then units with those kinds of expenses will price themselves out of the market to light units that have little or no vehicles. Back to the light infantry model for most mercenary units. As an example. a Lift Infantry Company with an attached Tank platoon.)
TOE as follows. (Using T20 vehicles from TA6, ranks from LBB4.)
A Squad consists of
Fireteam A
Sergeant: (E-6)(Squad Leader) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Fireteam B
Corporal: (E-4) (Team leader) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Fireteam C Grav APC Crew (Doubles as a Heavy weapons team when the vehicle is not present.)
Vehicle Commander: (E-4) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Pilot: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, Autopistol
Platoon consists of 3 squads plus
Platoon Leader (O-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Platoon Sergeant (E-7) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Medic (E-4) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Weapons Team
Corporal: (E-4) (Team leader) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Grav APC Crew (Doubles as a Heavy weapons team when the vehicle is not present.)
Vehicle Commander: (E-4) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Pilot: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, Autopistol
Armor Platoon consists of 4 Light Tanks (TL10)
Each tank having a crew of 4.
Tank Commander (E-5), Combat Armor, Autopistol.
Gunner (E-3) Combat Armor, Autopistol
Secondary Gunner (E-2) Combat Armor, Autopistol
Pilot (E-3) Combat Armor, Autopistol.
In one tank the Platoon Leader is the Tank Commander (O-1)
In another tank the Platoon Sergeant (E-7) is the Tank Commander.
Company HQ consists of 2 APCs.
Commander (O-3)
XO (O-2)
First Sergeant (E-8)
Senior Medic (E-5)
Medic (E-4)
Supply Sergeant (E-5)
Armorer (E-4)
Clerk (E-3)
Maintenance Sergeant (E-5)
Mechanic (E-3)
The Supply sergeant, Armorer, and mechanics perform as the vehicle crews for the Company HQ APC's.
All Company HQ personal are equipped as Riflemen.
Total personnel
6 officers and 146 enlisted.
Vehicle cost alone is MCr27.68 Running 10% for maintenance and supplies and 10% replacement cost (or amortization cost if you prefer.) Basic equipment cost is MCr3.2 or at 10% maint and ammo and 20% replacement. Total, expenses runs roughly KCr500 per month plus transportation and salaries.
Your basic formula seems like a fair starting point. To determine actual cost, I'd suggest doubling that figure and adding in an amount to cover expected losses; 10% or 20% of equipment value depending on anticipated opposition.
A platoon with 4 G-carriers might reasonably expect to lose one (or more) if the opposition is serious. At MCr1 each, losing a single carrier can eat up all your profits if the ticket fee is too low. The formula is set to pay 10% for maintenance and ammo and a further 10 to 20% (depending on the expense of the item) for the item cost itself. If you lose more than 20% of your low cost items or 10% of your high cost items per year then the formula is incorrect. However if you expect to lose vehicles or other high ticket items on a regular basis, then units with those kinds of expenses will price themselves out of the market to light units that have little or no vehicles. Back to the light infantry model for most mercenary units. As an example. a Lift Infantry Company with an attached Tank platoon.)
TOE as follows. (Using T20 vehicles from TA6, ranks from LBB4.)
A Squad consists of
Fireteam A
Sergeant: (E-6)(Squad Leader) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Fireteam B
Corporal: (E-4) (Team leader) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Rifleman: (E-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Fireteam C Grav APC Crew (Doubles as a Heavy weapons team when the vehicle is not present.)
Vehicle Commander: (E-4) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Pilot: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, Autopistol
Platoon consists of 3 squads plus
Platoon Leader (O-1) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Platoon Sergeant (E-7) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Medic (E-4) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Weapons Team
Corporal: (E-4) (Team leader) Combat Armor-TL12, Gauss Rifle, Autopistol, RAM Grenades.
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Plasma Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, PGMP-12, Autopistol
Grav APC Crew (Doubles as a Heavy weapons team when the vehicle is not present.)
Vehicle Commander: (E-4) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Gunner: (E-2) Combat Armor-12, Autopistol
Pilot: (E-2) Combat Armor-TL12, Autopistol
Armor Platoon consists of 4 Light Tanks (TL10)
Each tank having a crew of 4.
Tank Commander (E-5), Combat Armor, Autopistol.
Gunner (E-3) Combat Armor, Autopistol
Secondary Gunner (E-2) Combat Armor, Autopistol
Pilot (E-3) Combat Armor, Autopistol.
In one tank the Platoon Leader is the Tank Commander (O-1)
In another tank the Platoon Sergeant (E-7) is the Tank Commander.
Company HQ consists of 2 APCs.
Commander (O-3)
XO (O-2)
First Sergeant (E-8)
Senior Medic (E-5)
Medic (E-4)
Supply Sergeant (E-5)
Armorer (E-4)
Clerk (E-3)
Maintenance Sergeant (E-5)
Mechanic (E-3)
The Supply sergeant, Armorer, and mechanics perform as the vehicle crews for the Company HQ APC's.
All Company HQ personal are equipped as Riflemen.
Total personnel
6 officers and 146 enlisted.
Vehicle cost alone is MCr27.68 Running 10% for maintenance and supplies and 10% replacement cost (or amortization cost if you prefer.) Basic equipment cost is MCr3.2 or at 10% maint and ammo and 20% replacement. Total, expenses runs roughly KCr500 per month plus transportation and salaries.
BetterThanLife
December 1st, 2006, 01:07 PM
Salary works out to 65350 per month plus shares using the LBB4 model. Roughly 182 tons of cargo.
Moving this unit is going to be a headache. smile.gif
Moving this unit is going to be a headache. smile.gif
far-trader
December 1st, 2006, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Total personnel 6 officers and 146 enlisted. Roughly 182 tons of cargo.
Moving this unit is going to be a headache. smile.gif I dunno, you could pack it all up into a pair of Fat-Traders if you weren't going too far. The Subbie Merchants are everywhere, innocuous, and cheap to charter. Of course you have to be going on their route and schedule.
If I were building a unit like this that expected to travel a lot I'd buy a couple of retired Subbies at a good discount and convert/upgrade them a bit for native transport ready whenever needed. The expense would be an issue though, unless you ran them as free-traders during unit downtime. Then they would become a very profitable asset to see you through.
Load 3 officers per ship in private (3 passenger) staterooms, 73 enlisted per at double occupancy (remaining 5 passenger staterooms and cargo hold stateroom modules of 126tons) ala the instant basing idea mentioned which I also worked into my unfinished entry) leaving about 108tons for gear, heck that leaves you with 17tons for extra gear on each ship (except I used it up for the life support and extra base space below).
Of course the cost of said basing modules would be on you but you need some kind of base anyway, it might as well be mobile.
I'd design them using the vehicle design sequence Small Cabin with a stand alone life support module (pressurized and climate controlled module). Call it Cr504,000 for the basing modules and another Cr220,500 for the life support module, taking up about 7.5tons not including a power supply. The power plant (170.1 vehicle ep) would be about another Cr170,000 and 0.5tons for early fusion. Every 0.25tons of fuel tankage would be good for about 4 weeks of operation.
So I'd probably round it out and call it a 9ton powerplant and 132ton base capable of supporting half the unit for up to 4 months in the field (thats just the fuel duration, food and water is extra). Total cost Cr900,000 for the package. In addition to providing 63 bunks (or 2 bunks convert to a single private room for officers) and common space that would also include 6tons of space for whatever custom use you desire. All buildable at TL8 (TL9 if you include the Subbies).
Total personnel 6 officers and 146 enlisted. Roughly 182 tons of cargo.
Moving this unit is going to be a headache. smile.gif I dunno, you could pack it all up into a pair of Fat-Traders if you weren't going too far. The Subbie Merchants are everywhere, innocuous, and cheap to charter. Of course you have to be going on their route and schedule.
If I were building a unit like this that expected to travel a lot I'd buy a couple of retired Subbies at a good discount and convert/upgrade them a bit for native transport ready whenever needed. The expense would be an issue though, unless you ran them as free-traders during unit downtime. Then they would become a very profitable asset to see you through.
Load 3 officers per ship in private (3 passenger) staterooms, 73 enlisted per at double occupancy (remaining 5 passenger staterooms and cargo hold stateroom modules of 126tons) ala the instant basing idea mentioned which I also worked into my unfinished entry) leaving about 108tons for gear, heck that leaves you with 17tons for extra gear on each ship (except I used it up for the life support and extra base space below).
Of course the cost of said basing modules would be on you but you need some kind of base anyway, it might as well be mobile.
I'd design them using the vehicle design sequence Small Cabin with a stand alone life support module (pressurized and climate controlled module). Call it Cr504,000 for the basing modules and another Cr220,500 for the life support module, taking up about 7.5tons not including a power supply. The power plant (170.1 vehicle ep) would be about another Cr170,000 and 0.5tons for early fusion. Every 0.25tons of fuel tankage would be good for about 4 weeks of operation.
So I'd probably round it out and call it a 9ton powerplant and 132ton base capable of supporting half the unit for up to 4 months in the field (thats just the fuel duration, food and water is extra). Total cost Cr900,000 for the package. In addition to providing 63 bunks (or 2 bunks convert to a single private room for officers) and common space that would also include 6tons of space for whatever custom use you desire. All buildable at TL8 (TL9 if you include the Subbies).
ravells
December 1st, 2006, 03:37 PM
Dan 'mentat' Burns, more like.
Ravs
Ravs
far-trader
December 1st, 2006, 04:27 PM
Well thank you ravs smile.gif
ravells
December 1st, 2006, 04:57 PM
That post before last took you about 2 seconds to write...I'm sure of it.
Do people stare at your eyebrows in the street? smile.gif
Do people stare at your eyebrows in the street? smile.gif
far-trader
December 1st, 2006, 05:02 PM
I knew I was forgetting something.
(way to blow the whole Mentat image)
I didn't factor in some chassis allotment for the structure of the mobile basing. Of course my rounding should cover it. Yeah, let's go with it's included ;)
(way to blow the whole Mentat image)
I didn't factor in some chassis allotment for the structure of the mobile basing. Of course my rounding should cover it. Yeah, let's go with it's included ;)
far-trader
December 1st, 2006, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by ravs:
That post before last took you about 2 seconds to write...I'm sure of it.Nah, it was more like a minute, I type waaaay slower than I can think.
Originally posted by ravs:
Do people stare at your eyebrows in the street? smile.gif The wild eyebrow look only comes from Sapho abuse, I don't use the stuff... anymore... much smile.gif
That post before last took you about 2 seconds to write...I'm sure of it.Nah, it was more like a minute, I type waaaay slower than I can think.
Originally posted by ravs:
Do people stare at your eyebrows in the street? smile.gif The wild eyebrow look only comes from Sapho abuse, I don't use the stuff... anymore... much smile.gif
BetterThanLife
December 1st, 2006, 05:18 PM
Dan,
I agree that you could fit them on a Pair of Sub-Liners or so. But it isn't the type of unit that I would organize without organic interstellar transport. Trying to find a ship that can give you a lift between jobs would wipe out any profit in a heartbeat. A Light Platoon, I might depend on commercial transport, but a Company? It puts too much stock in Luck.
I agree that you could fit them on a Pair of Sub-Liners or so. But it isn't the type of unit that I would organize without organic interstellar transport. Trying to find a ship that can give you a lift between jobs would wipe out any profit in a heartbeat. A Light Platoon, I might depend on commercial transport, but a Company? It puts too much stock in Luck.
Piper
December 1st, 2006, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
[QUOTE]... if you expect to lose vehicles or other high ticket items on a regular basis, then units with those kinds of expenses will price themselves out of the market to light units that have little or no vehicles. Back to the light infantry model for most mercenary units.10% losses per year seems a bit optimistic given that your opposition is just as likely to be another mercenary unit as it is indigenous forces.
A light infantry unit isn't going to be chosen to fill an armor role simply because it's cheaper. Light infantry might be the most common type, but there's ample room for a wide variety: mercenary air units, artillery, electronic warfare, air defense artillery, heavy armor, etc.
Most tickets specify the type of unit required so it seems unlikely that an infantry unit and an armored unit would even be competing for the same jobs.
Based on Book 4 prices, your unit should be able to earn from MCr1 to MCr5 per month; possibly more for high risk missions.
[QUOTE]... if you expect to lose vehicles or other high ticket items on a regular basis, then units with those kinds of expenses will price themselves out of the market to light units that have little or no vehicles. Back to the light infantry model for most mercenary units.10% losses per year seems a bit optimistic given that your opposition is just as likely to be another mercenary unit as it is indigenous forces.
A light infantry unit isn't going to be chosen to fill an armor role simply because it's cheaper. Light infantry might be the most common type, but there's ample room for a wide variety: mercenary air units, artillery, electronic warfare, air defense artillery, heavy armor, etc.
Most tickets specify the type of unit required so it seems unlikely that an infantry unit and an armored unit would even be competing for the same jobs.
Based on Book 4 prices, your unit should be able to earn from MCr1 to MCr5 per month; possibly more for high risk missions.
BetterThanLife
December 1st, 2006, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
... if you expect to lose vehicles or other high ticket items on a regular basis, then units with those kinds of expenses will price themselves out of the market to light units that have little or no vehicles. Back to the light infantry model for most mercenary units.10% losses per year seems a bit optimistic given that your opposition is just as likely to be another mercenary unit as it is indigenous forces. The current Canon Tickets don't take into account that level of expenses.
A light infantry unit isn't going to be chosen to fill an armor role simply because it's cheaper. Light infantry might be the most common type, but there's ample room for a wide variety: mercenary air units, artillery, electronic warfare, air defense artillery, heavy armor, etc.
Most tickets specify the type of unit required so it seems unlikely that an infantry unit and an armored unit would even be competing for the same jobs.
Based on Book 4 prices, your unit should be able to earn from MCr1 to MCr5 per month; possibly more for high risk missions. </font>Well considering that more than 60% of the worlds in the OTU are not Armor Unit Friendly... And being able to kill armor and have mobility is more important than having armor. A Mostly light force with armor killing capability and perhaps a Tank Platoon, or 4 Light Fighters. smile.gif
But if you are counting on a ticket per month, then you have to have organic transport. And Mortgage alone on a 600 ton Subliner (which is the smallest/cheapest ship I would use, and in the case of this company you need two.) is MCr1 per month, per liner. So you are looking at from MCr2.5 to MCr3 plus, per month in expenses. More if you actually want to do assault landings, and much more if you are going to write off a vehicle per month. smile.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
... if you expect to lose vehicles or other high ticket items on a regular basis, then units with those kinds of expenses will price themselves out of the market to light units that have little or no vehicles. Back to the light infantry model for most mercenary units.10% losses per year seems a bit optimistic given that your opposition is just as likely to be another mercenary unit as it is indigenous forces. The current Canon Tickets don't take into account that level of expenses.
A light infantry unit isn't going to be chosen to fill an armor role simply because it's cheaper. Light infantry might be the most common type, but there's ample room for a wide variety: mercenary air units, artillery, electronic warfare, air defense artillery, heavy armor, etc.
Most tickets specify the type of unit required so it seems unlikely that an infantry unit and an armored unit would even be competing for the same jobs.
Based on Book 4 prices, your unit should be able to earn from MCr1 to MCr5 per month; possibly more for high risk missions. </font>Well considering that more than 60% of the worlds in the OTU are not Armor Unit Friendly... And being able to kill armor and have mobility is more important than having armor. A Mostly light force with armor killing capability and perhaps a Tank Platoon, or 4 Light Fighters. smile.gif
But if you are counting on a ticket per month, then you have to have organic transport. And Mortgage alone on a 600 ton Subliner (which is the smallest/cheapest ship I would use, and in the case of this company you need two.) is MCr1 per month, per liner. So you are looking at from MCr2.5 to MCr3 plus, per month in expenses. More if you actually want to do assault landings, and much more if you are going to write off a vehicle per month. smile.gif
sid6.7
December 2nd, 2006, 01:15 AM
ummm can't we do the god method?
a ticket shall consist of 2 finanical parts:
part 1:
expenses/salaries,troops,equipment,tanks/apc's
for the ESTIMATED time of the operation and
transport(provided) or transport(yours.)
if yours = add in operating expense's
part 2: profit
shall be anywhere from 5% to 100% of part 1
AND/OR looting... graemlins/file_23.gif
then god rested and saw it was good....
or am i just a noob... :(
a ticket shall consist of 2 finanical parts:
part 1:
expenses/salaries,troops,equipment,tanks/apc's
for the ESTIMATED time of the operation and
transport(provided) or transport(yours.)
if yours = add in operating expense's
part 2: profit
shall be anywhere from 5% to 100% of part 1
AND/OR looting... graemlins/file_23.gif
then god rested and saw it was good....
or am i just a noob... :(
Hal
December 2nd, 2006, 03:46 AM
I've not taken the time to read up on some of the posts in pages 2 and/or 3 - so forgive me for butting in HERE ;)
But here is how I see it working out overall:
The unit itself is required to do the work in making itself a marketable item. It is charged with its own training, its own maintenance duties, and its own stockpiling of equipment etc (ie, basing). If it is to have a HOME port or home address, it makes it easier for prospective employers to come knocking. A mercenary outfit should also employ a staff of "researchers" and contact men. These teams contact megacorporations on a constant basis saying "Got a job for us?" as well as take the time to read "newsies" from various other worlds. They are trained to spot potential employment opportunities based on the news events they read in the newsies. Call them ambulance chasers, call them job recruiters, or call them GOD if they get you jobs regularly, or the devil if they don't - but pay them a reasonable non-combat wage.
Next, determine the likely number of tickets one can expect within a given time. That determines the general cost of a unit over a period of time. For instance, an employer wants you NOW, he is likely only going to need you for 6 months. He is likely going to end up paying 2x to perhaps 6x the going rate for a normal military unit. Why? Because he needs trained professionals NOW. Sure, he can train up a green unit after a few months, perhaps gear up production of manufacturing facilities to equip the unit he can raise on his own, but - alas, he needs you NOW. So, the Mercenary Captain MAY be willing to accept 2x as much normal pay on the spot. He also tells the perspective buyer "Costs for hiring this unit are exclusive of transportation and supply costs. You as the employer are required to pay all associated expenses (and this is why having a lawyer in your unit's employ is helpful, to iron out those inevitable contract disputes as to what are legitimate transport and supply costs).
A unit that doesn't bank money for the lean times will be a unit that dissolves eventually. A unit that doesn't enforce strict financial discipline is also one that will degenerate into a poor outfit. Successful outfits however, will pick and choose their tickets where available, avoid catestrophic losses, have reasonable escape clauses built into their contracts - and above all, make money as a unit - hand over fist. The individuals may not see that money, but you need to look at this from another perspective...
Someone had to foot the bill in financing the unit's assets in the first place. THAT person, like a ship owner who purchased a ship and had a captain act as his agent - gets first dibs on profits. If it isn't a profitable investment, the owner of the mercenary assets is going to dissolve the unit, sell the equipment to recover capital losses, and reinvest elsewhere.
So, defining a mercenary outfit should start from page one to where the player characters become involved:
1) Who fronted the Money
2) Where do they stay between jobs?
3) What kinds of materials access does the unit have?
4) What events are ongoing throughout the region - let the PC's pick and choose between jobs rather than lead them through the nose. Let them cackle with glee when a job turns out to be a cake walk. Let them sweat when they realize that sooner or later they will not pick a cakewalk!
5) detail detail detail. Who are the men in the unit? What are their likes/dislikes?
6) Create a few megacorporations and decide ahead of time what they are doing, who is butting heads with whom, and then create personalites for those Megacorp liason individuals. Ain't nothing like having to work for a snake, knowing you're working for a snake, but have to do so for the sake of "profitability"
My suggestion overall is that Most units will get the following in a Traveller Universe:
2x MINIMUM wages for a job's expected duration.
2x cost of supplies used on the job, unless the
employer is to supply equipment for you, and employer gets to keep it afterwards
Employer pays ALL transport costs and is required to arrange for it prior to conclusion of contractual signing.
A fee equal to 20% (or more) bond is to be held in escrow in the event unit material losses exceed a given amount. Call it a rental fee for the unit itself. If you've taken loses in excess of 20%, you're likely one hurting unit!
Keep in mind one thing: Some employers are not going to be able to meet the standards above. Some will be the destitute Mexican villagers from THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN and be almost able to meet the demands, but not quite. THOSE will be the tickets that some mercenary outfits get suckered into. Perhaps a unit has been so long without money, that they MUST take such jobs to make ends meet. Or maybe, just maybe, the owner of the mercenary's assets has family on that world and arranges to commit the outfit to a job they normally would walk away from, but can't.
;)
But here is how I see it working out overall:
The unit itself is required to do the work in making itself a marketable item. It is charged with its own training, its own maintenance duties, and its own stockpiling of equipment etc (ie, basing). If it is to have a HOME port or home address, it makes it easier for prospective employers to come knocking. A mercenary outfit should also employ a staff of "researchers" and contact men. These teams contact megacorporations on a constant basis saying "Got a job for us?" as well as take the time to read "newsies" from various other worlds. They are trained to spot potential employment opportunities based on the news events they read in the newsies. Call them ambulance chasers, call them job recruiters, or call them GOD if they get you jobs regularly, or the devil if they don't - but pay them a reasonable non-combat wage.
Next, determine the likely number of tickets one can expect within a given time. That determines the general cost of a unit over a period of time. For instance, an employer wants you NOW, he is likely only going to need you for 6 months. He is likely going to end up paying 2x to perhaps 6x the going rate for a normal military unit. Why? Because he needs trained professionals NOW. Sure, he can train up a green unit after a few months, perhaps gear up production of manufacturing facilities to equip the unit he can raise on his own, but - alas, he needs you NOW. So, the Mercenary Captain MAY be willing to accept 2x as much normal pay on the spot. He also tells the perspective buyer "Costs for hiring this unit are exclusive of transportation and supply costs. You as the employer are required to pay all associated expenses (and this is why having a lawyer in your unit's employ is helpful, to iron out those inevitable contract disputes as to what are legitimate transport and supply costs).
A unit that doesn't bank money for the lean times will be a unit that dissolves eventually. A unit that doesn't enforce strict financial discipline is also one that will degenerate into a poor outfit. Successful outfits however, will pick and choose their tickets where available, avoid catestrophic losses, have reasonable escape clauses built into their contracts - and above all, make money as a unit - hand over fist. The individuals may not see that money, but you need to look at this from another perspective...
Someone had to foot the bill in financing the unit's assets in the first place. THAT person, like a ship owner who purchased a ship and had a captain act as his agent - gets first dibs on profits. If it isn't a profitable investment, the owner of the mercenary assets is going to dissolve the unit, sell the equipment to recover capital losses, and reinvest elsewhere.
So, defining a mercenary outfit should start from page one to where the player characters become involved:
1) Who fronted the Money
2) Where do they stay between jobs?
3) What kinds of materials access does the unit have?
4) What events are ongoing throughout the region - let the PC's pick and choose between jobs rather than lead them through the nose. Let them cackle with glee when a job turns out to be a cake walk. Let them sweat when they realize that sooner or later they will not pick a cakewalk!
5) detail detail detail. Who are the men in the unit? What are their likes/dislikes?
6) Create a few megacorporations and decide ahead of time what they are doing, who is butting heads with whom, and then create personalites for those Megacorp liason individuals. Ain't nothing like having to work for a snake, knowing you're working for a snake, but have to do so for the sake of "profitability"
My suggestion overall is that Most units will get the following in a Traveller Universe:
2x MINIMUM wages for a job's expected duration.
2x cost of supplies used on the job, unless the
employer is to supply equipment for you, and employer gets to keep it afterwards
Employer pays ALL transport costs and is required to arrange for it prior to conclusion of contractual signing.
A fee equal to 20% (or more) bond is to be held in escrow in the event unit material losses exceed a given amount. Call it a rental fee for the unit itself. If you've taken loses in excess of 20%, you're likely one hurting unit!
Keep in mind one thing: Some employers are not going to be able to meet the standards above. Some will be the destitute Mexican villagers from THE MAGNIFICENT SEVEN and be almost able to meet the demands, but not quite. THOSE will be the tickets that some mercenary outfits get suckered into. Perhaps a unit has been so long without money, that they MUST take such jobs to make ends meet. Or maybe, just maybe, the owner of the mercenary's assets has family on that world and arranges to commit the outfit to a job they normally would walk away from, but can't.
;)
BetterThanLife
December 2nd, 2006, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
ummm can't we do the god method?
a ticket shall consist of 2 finanical parts:
part 1:
expenses/salaries,troops,equipment,tanks/apc's
for the ESTIMATED time of the operation and
transport(provided) or transport(yours.)
if yours = add in operating expense's
part 2: profit
shall be anywhere from 5% to 100% of part 1
AND/OR looting... graemlins/file_23.gif
then god rested and saw it was good....
or am i just a noob... :( Posasible but not the overall flavor of the OTU. Yes things are abstracted, but a merchant campaign requires a balance sheet. You can calculate a Merchants profit margin to within Cr.01. You can calculate what ships and routes are likely to be profitable with a fair degree of accuracy, even with all the rolling going on. Yet a Mercenary Unit while detailed in the amount and types of equipment available, Individual salaries and other minutae shows virtually no relationship between cost to operate the unit (Or even a reasonable estimate in official sources as to what the unit will cost to operate.) And the official prices that people are willing to pay to hire their services. There is no indication as to where, what kind of jobs, or frequency of jobs available for the unit.
When I run a campaign. I do some handwaving. I do some fudging. But I generally figure out how things are supposed to work, and what should work so the results are, overall, fairly predictable for my players. Eventually the players will stop working for someone else that is doing the math and want to do their own math.
In other words if Choosing A when given B the results will be someplace near C. If it worked for someone else, then why doesn't it work for us now? Is something I would prefer to avoid. I am not saying I will nail down all of the details, but I want to have a good general idea so that the laws of the universe remain fairly consistent.
Questions that need to be answered before they are asked are things like what does it cost to maintain a unit? What is a good job vs. what is a poor job? These need to be answered for the overall scheme to work.
ummm can't we do the god method?
a ticket shall consist of 2 finanical parts:
part 1:
expenses/salaries,troops,equipment,tanks/apc's
for the ESTIMATED time of the operation and
transport(provided) or transport(yours.)
if yours = add in operating expense's
part 2: profit
shall be anywhere from 5% to 100% of part 1
AND/OR looting... graemlins/file_23.gif
then god rested and saw it was good....
or am i just a noob... :( Posasible but not the overall flavor of the OTU. Yes things are abstracted, but a merchant campaign requires a balance sheet. You can calculate a Merchants profit margin to within Cr.01. You can calculate what ships and routes are likely to be profitable with a fair degree of accuracy, even with all the rolling going on. Yet a Mercenary Unit while detailed in the amount and types of equipment available, Individual salaries and other minutae shows virtually no relationship between cost to operate the unit (Or even a reasonable estimate in official sources as to what the unit will cost to operate.) And the official prices that people are willing to pay to hire their services. There is no indication as to where, what kind of jobs, or frequency of jobs available for the unit.
When I run a campaign. I do some handwaving. I do some fudging. But I generally figure out how things are supposed to work, and what should work so the results are, overall, fairly predictable for my players. Eventually the players will stop working for someone else that is doing the math and want to do their own math.
In other words if Choosing A when given B the results will be someplace near C. If it worked for someone else, then why doesn't it work for us now? Is something I would prefer to avoid. I am not saying I will nail down all of the details, but I want to have a good general idea so that the laws of the universe remain fairly consistent.
Questions that need to be answered before they are asked are things like what does it cost to maintain a unit? What is a good job vs. what is a poor job? These need to be answered for the overall scheme to work.
Piper
December 2nd, 2006, 05:30 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
... I am just trying to establish a good baseline for ticket pricing. To do that I have to first, figure out a decent formula to calculate what a unit's expenses are going to be. After that I will need to make a determination as to the frequency of tickets, and how a unit gets tickets in the first place.and ...
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
But if you are counting on a ticket per month, then you have to have organic transport. And Mortgage alone on a 600 ton Subliner (which is the smallest/cheapest ship I would use, and in the case of this company you need two.) is MCr1 per month, per liner. So you are looking at from MCr2.5 to MCr3 plus, per month in expenses. More if you actually want to do assault landings, and much more if you are going to write off a vehicle per month.Take a look at the larger tickets in Book 4. Considering that your scheme includes 100% logistic support, your own vehicles and organic starship transport to the job, MCr5 to MCr10 per company per month or part thereof seems reasonable.
Planetary assaults and Broadsword tickets are going to run significantly higher as you have to factor in damage to the ships.
... I am just trying to establish a good baseline for ticket pricing. To do that I have to first, figure out a decent formula to calculate what a unit's expenses are going to be. After that I will need to make a determination as to the frequency of tickets, and how a unit gets tickets in the first place.and ...
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
But if you are counting on a ticket per month, then you have to have organic transport. And Mortgage alone on a 600 ton Subliner (which is the smallest/cheapest ship I would use, and in the case of this company you need two.) is MCr1 per month, per liner. So you are looking at from MCr2.5 to MCr3 plus, per month in expenses. More if you actually want to do assault landings, and much more if you are going to write off a vehicle per month.Take a look at the larger tickets in Book 4. Considering that your scheme includes 100% logistic support, your own vehicles and organic starship transport to the job, MCr5 to MCr10 per company per month or part thereof seems reasonable.
Planetary assaults and Broadsword tickets are going to run significantly higher as you have to factor in damage to the ships.
aramis
December 2nd, 2006, 06:36 PM
the "one ticket a month" idea is a VERY bad one for any non-specialized units.
it limits one to a 2J6 range absolute, and probably 2J4 realistic range, or 1J4 with two weeks on station.
If one has a short-term mission ops specialty, one can expect tickets to be fairly rare, a few a year.
If one has mid-term (4-12 month) deployments, however, one can not afford to keep integral transports waiting, but the logistics costs of moving become significantly less important as well.
At long term rates (a year or longer), integral transport costs more to keep than it saves, unless the mission calls for said transports.
EG: Shushugliar's 3076th Bounce Irregular Infantry Regiment don't keep integral transports, as they have a job at a major starport for security. Since they use this as a base for training, as well, their "over-contract" battalion takes some independent jobs; transport is either provided or charged for. The unit has subsidized a half dozen Type R's; the activation clause is used when needed, to pull ships for transport, and the patron is charged for the "Charters." These ships return to route as soon as the unit is on-station and thawed. (Yes, they popsicle their troops...) Of course, with 5 man Battle-dress squads, that's 4Td/squad... and he runs 3 squads per platoon, 3 platoons and a squad per company (40Td), 3 companies & a platoon per battallion... (140Td per battalion.) Officers go double occ in staterooms, and an extra few are placed in the bay to meet the needs. Tight, but the pay is worth it. They don't take any short jobs; if they are not going to be on station for at least 30 days, they won't go.
Khakhumnakhak's 10999th Light Drop Strikers, however, have specialized transports, and would be hired for fewer jobs, but those jobs would be more likely to be "Standby for forward deployment" or "Strike several to-be-disclosed targets."
it limits one to a 2J6 range absolute, and probably 2J4 realistic range, or 1J4 with two weeks on station.
If one has a short-term mission ops specialty, one can expect tickets to be fairly rare, a few a year.
If one has mid-term (4-12 month) deployments, however, one can not afford to keep integral transports waiting, but the logistics costs of moving become significantly less important as well.
At long term rates (a year or longer), integral transport costs more to keep than it saves, unless the mission calls for said transports.
EG: Shushugliar's 3076th Bounce Irregular Infantry Regiment don't keep integral transports, as they have a job at a major starport for security. Since they use this as a base for training, as well, their "over-contract" battalion takes some independent jobs; transport is either provided or charged for. The unit has subsidized a half dozen Type R's; the activation clause is used when needed, to pull ships for transport, and the patron is charged for the "Charters." These ships return to route as soon as the unit is on-station and thawed. (Yes, they popsicle their troops...) Of course, with 5 man Battle-dress squads, that's 4Td/squad... and he runs 3 squads per platoon, 3 platoons and a squad per company (40Td), 3 companies & a platoon per battallion... (140Td per battalion.) Officers go double occ in staterooms, and an extra few are placed in the bay to meet the needs. Tight, but the pay is worth it. They don't take any short jobs; if they are not going to be on station for at least 30 days, they won't go.
Khakhumnakhak's 10999th Light Drop Strikers, however, have specialized transports, and would be hired for fewer jobs, but those jobs would be more likely to be "Standby for forward deployment" or "Strike several to-be-disclosed targets."
BetterThanLife
December 2nd, 2006, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by Aramis:
the "one ticket a month" idea is a VERY bad one for any non-specialized units.
it limits one to a 2J6 range absolute, and probably 2J4 realistic range, or 1J4 with two weeks on station.
If one has a short-term mission ops specialty, one can expect tickets to be fairly rare, a few a year.Absolutely. And one ticket per month is definitely unlikely. However a reasonable frequency has to be calculated based on the Traveller Universe being played in, to determine what a ticket should pay.
If one has mid-term (4-12 month) deployments, however, one can not afford to keep integral transports waiting, but the logistics costs of moving become significantly less important as well.
At long term rates (a year or longer), integral transport costs more to keep than it saves, unless the mission calls for said transports. Actually I seriously disagree with both of these statements.
First if you are using standard transports for the bulk of your transport fleet you can always have them work commercially during longer deployments to cover their costs. Depending on this organization of transports if you have a speciality ship such as a Javelin or Broadsword, supported by 2-3 SubLiners, then you put the liners to work commercially while you are on a long term deployment and use your specialized ship for logistics. The majority of tickets are handled on worlds where the local tech level can not keep a Mercenary Unit supplied in ammunition, spare parts and major end items. Someone needs to Pick up and deliver, sometimes into a hot LZ these supplies. Further while you can recruit locally to make up personnel losses, training them while you are underfire is less likely to succeed than training them someplace else and bringing them in. Further it is easier to train people that are from a system whose Tech Level is equal or greater than the Tech Level of the equipment you are using. So for the Lift Infantry Unit I posted earlier, you would want to set up recruiting and training on a TL12+ world and then bring in trained replacements. It would give you a chance, on a long deployment, to rotate personnel out of a combat zone, get them some R&R and in that time frame, they can handle training of new recruits, and bring them back to the combat zone, again, possibly entering a hot LZ.
For a quieter mission this might not be significant, but for actual sustained combat missions, this type of thing going on during the mission, without disrupting the mission is vital.
For your examples, as stated earlier Type R's are virtually useless to Mercenary operations. They are virtually limited to a sector Main, and you will be limited to your Mercenary unit operating in a single small cluster. Further regular resupply is impossible unless the Unit's Tech Level is equal to or lower than the local system Tech Level.
I personally don't see many mercenary units sitting on their butts to get paid. After all without some religous, or other similar restriction on the local planet, that is what that planet pays an Army for. Low risk, low pay jobs will not keep the unit supplied or show a profit anyway.
the "one ticket a month" idea is a VERY bad one for any non-specialized units.
it limits one to a 2J6 range absolute, and probably 2J4 realistic range, or 1J4 with two weeks on station.
If one has a short-term mission ops specialty, one can expect tickets to be fairly rare, a few a year.Absolutely. And one ticket per month is definitely unlikely. However a reasonable frequency has to be calculated based on the Traveller Universe being played in, to determine what a ticket should pay.
If one has mid-term (4-12 month) deployments, however, one can not afford to keep integral transports waiting, but the logistics costs of moving become significantly less important as well.
At long term rates (a year or longer), integral transport costs more to keep than it saves, unless the mission calls for said transports. Actually I seriously disagree with both of these statements.
First if you are using standard transports for the bulk of your transport fleet you can always have them work commercially during longer deployments to cover their costs. Depending on this organization of transports if you have a speciality ship such as a Javelin or Broadsword, supported by 2-3 SubLiners, then you put the liners to work commercially while you are on a long term deployment and use your specialized ship for logistics. The majority of tickets are handled on worlds where the local tech level can not keep a Mercenary Unit supplied in ammunition, spare parts and major end items. Someone needs to Pick up and deliver, sometimes into a hot LZ these supplies. Further while you can recruit locally to make up personnel losses, training them while you are underfire is less likely to succeed than training them someplace else and bringing them in. Further it is easier to train people that are from a system whose Tech Level is equal or greater than the Tech Level of the equipment you are using. So for the Lift Infantry Unit I posted earlier, you would want to set up recruiting and training on a TL12+ world and then bring in trained replacements. It would give you a chance, on a long deployment, to rotate personnel out of a combat zone, get them some R&R and in that time frame, they can handle training of new recruits, and bring them back to the combat zone, again, possibly entering a hot LZ.
For a quieter mission this might not be significant, but for actual sustained combat missions, this type of thing going on during the mission, without disrupting the mission is vital.
For your examples, as stated earlier Type R's are virtually useless to Mercenary operations. They are virtually limited to a sector Main, and you will be limited to your Mercenary unit operating in a single small cluster. Further regular resupply is impossible unless the Unit's Tech Level is equal to or lower than the local system Tech Level.
I personally don't see many mercenary units sitting on their butts to get paid. After all without some religous, or other similar restriction on the local planet, that is what that planet pays an Army for. Low risk, low pay jobs will not keep the unit supplied or show a profit anyway.
sid6.7
December 2nd, 2006, 11:51 PM
oh i dont know if its wise for your ship(s)
to leave you incase of evac...waiting could
easily be part of the operating costs for
a ticket and standard policy.
to leave you incase of evac...waiting could
easily be part of the operating costs for
a ticket and standard policy.
BetterThanLife
December 3rd, 2006, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
oh i dont know if its wise for your ship(s)
to leave you incase of evac...waiting could
easily be part of the operating costs for
a ticket and standard policy. Except that with the exception of EA6 none of the current canon tickets even pretend to cover the cost of organic starships or even crew salaries. (Even in situations where the boat is expected to be hazarded.)
oh i dont know if its wise for your ship(s)
to leave you incase of evac...waiting could
easily be part of the operating costs for
a ticket and standard policy. Except that with the exception of EA6 none of the current canon tickets even pretend to cover the cost of organic starships or even crew salaries. (Even in situations where the boat is expected to be hazarded.)
sid6.7
December 3rd, 2006, 05:00 PM
isnt that more like it doesnt say YES or NO
so we assume NO? and you mean the 5 tickets
in LBB 4 right? or is there another book your
looking at?
if you mean those 5 tickets that could easily
be assumed to be part of the "success" end of
your ticket or "upfront" end or the ticket.
i still dont think a merc running his "own"
ships would send them offworld on a commerical
trip while war is going on, they would always
have a ship(s) standing off somewhere for evac
purposes. i would think you would lose your
ability to recruit men if you did. Now if
your client is providing the ships that might be
different unless of course your providing the ship
crew also?
so we assume NO? and you mean the 5 tickets
in LBB 4 right? or is there another book your
looking at?
if you mean those 5 tickets that could easily
be assumed to be part of the "success" end of
your ticket or "upfront" end or the ticket.
i still dont think a merc running his "own"
ships would send them offworld on a commerical
trip while war is going on, they would always
have a ship(s) standing off somewhere for evac
purposes. i would think you would lose your
ability to recruit men if you did. Now if
your client is providing the ships that might be
different unless of course your providing the ship
crew also?
BetterThanLife
December 3rd, 2006, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
isnt that more like it doesnt say YES or NO
so we assume NO? and you mean the 5 tickets
in LBB 4 right? or is there another book your
looking at?
if you mean those 5 tickets that could easily
be assumed to be part of the "success" end of
your ticket or "upfront" end or the ticket.
Actually looking at LBB4, 76 Patrons, Adventure 7 (Broadsword), EA6, EA7 and a couple of other canon sources I have peeked at, but I can't place this afternoon, it is the cost of running the unit and profit margin, vs. the cost of the ships that say that the tickets do not pay enough to cover the cost of inherent ships.
i still dont think a merc running his "own"
ships would send them offworld on a commerical
trip while war is going on, they would always
have a ship(s) standing off somewhere for evac
purposes. i would think you would lose your
ability to recruit men if you did. Now if
your client is providing the ships that might be
different unless of course your providing the ship
crew also? It would of course depend on the nature of the ticket and the location of the ticket vs. location of the nearest source of supply and recruiting effort. Further if you have to evac a Sub Liner isn't really equipped to pull troops out of a hot LZ. If your Merchant transports are plying the local systems, they can also carry a Marketing agent aboard to help drum up business for the next ticket. Further it keeps the ships out of harms way, so they don't get hit as part of the conflict.
Obviously for a hit and run raid, leave the ships local.
isnt that more like it doesnt say YES or NO
so we assume NO? and you mean the 5 tickets
in LBB 4 right? or is there another book your
looking at?
if you mean those 5 tickets that could easily
be assumed to be part of the "success" end of
your ticket or "upfront" end or the ticket.
Actually looking at LBB4, 76 Patrons, Adventure 7 (Broadsword), EA6, EA7 and a couple of other canon sources I have peeked at, but I can't place this afternoon, it is the cost of running the unit and profit margin, vs. the cost of the ships that say that the tickets do not pay enough to cover the cost of inherent ships.
i still dont think a merc running his "own"
ships would send them offworld on a commerical
trip while war is going on, they would always
have a ship(s) standing off somewhere for evac
purposes. i would think you would lose your
ability to recruit men if you did. Now if
your client is providing the ships that might be
different unless of course your providing the ship
crew also? It would of course depend on the nature of the ticket and the location of the ticket vs. location of the nearest source of supply and recruiting effort. Further if you have to evac a Sub Liner isn't really equipped to pull troops out of a hot LZ. If your Merchant transports are plying the local systems, they can also carry a Marketing agent aboard to help drum up business for the next ticket. Further it keeps the ships out of harms way, so they don't get hit as part of the conflict.
Obviously for a hit and run raid, leave the ships local.
atpollard
December 3rd, 2006, 09:22 PM
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it.
BetterThanLife
December 3rd, 2006, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it. Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports.
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it. Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports.
atpollard
December 3rd, 2006, 10:29 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it. Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports. </font>[/QUOTE]In CT expenses on a 200 dTon liner are greater than 250 thousand credits per month.
The revenue is less than 200 thousand credits per month.
They can't be too small.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it. Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports. </font>[/QUOTE]In CT expenses on a 200 dTon liner are greater than 250 thousand credits per month.
The revenue is less than 200 thousand credits per month.
They can't be too small.
sid6.7
December 3rd, 2006, 11:09 PM
sid's slammers a small platoon(48 men)
operating on a Class(M)merchant: yes
you can suqeeze that many onto a class M
if you press the ship crew into 2 per
room.
getting everything cost 10,426,470 up front
monthly expenses are about 1,466,025 including
ship stuff.
this doesnt included MORE ammo or damages
to the troopers equipment that need repair
so i'd say i wouldnt look at anything LESS
then 3 million for a 30 day ticket...thats
going back to my 5-100% of expenses for the
profit side of the ticket...
you were talking companys so tickets would have
to be even larger then that...like 3 to 4 times.
i included a heli a AFV 3 different light weapons
and EVERYTHING i could scrap out per man from
LBB 1-4, even if it was useless ...
a typical man had:
ACR and 400 rounds
bayonet
knife
flak jacket
2 man tent
3 grenades
pistol and 60 rounds
compass
watch
handcuffs
flashlight
30 days of feild rations
some had:
hand computers
cutlass instead of knife
binocs
guass or PMGP rifle + 200rnd instead of ACR
if you want my sheet to check my numbers
i'll email it to you...but i think its ball
park enough...you want at LEAST dbl your monthly
expenses for whatever ticket...
operating on a Class(M)merchant: yes
you can suqeeze that many onto a class M
if you press the ship crew into 2 per
room.
getting everything cost 10,426,470 up front
monthly expenses are about 1,466,025 including
ship stuff.
this doesnt included MORE ammo or damages
to the troopers equipment that need repair
so i'd say i wouldnt look at anything LESS
then 3 million for a 30 day ticket...thats
going back to my 5-100% of expenses for the
profit side of the ticket...
you were talking companys so tickets would have
to be even larger then that...like 3 to 4 times.
i included a heli a AFV 3 different light weapons
and EVERYTHING i could scrap out per man from
LBB 1-4, even if it was useless ...
a typical man had:
ACR and 400 rounds
bayonet
knife
flak jacket
2 man tent
3 grenades
pistol and 60 rounds
compass
watch
handcuffs
flashlight
30 days of feild rations
some had:
hand computers
cutlass instead of knife
binocs
guass or PMGP rifle + 200rnd instead of ACR
if you want my sheet to check my numbers
i'll email it to you...but i think its ball
park enough...you want at LEAST dbl your monthly
expenses for whatever ticket...
sid6.7
December 4th, 2006, 01:05 AM
oh i forgot......client resources
one way to see what a ticket might look like
is to look at the GDP or the world or country
or company...
a world the size of ours might spend 2% of its GDP
on military type stuff...look at the CIA world factbook for info...
the USA does 4% of its GDP being a single country...
Boeing Co.(where i use to work)
at my site they had like 2 guards
per shift for 800 employees, so
since i dont know the wages of everyone
lets say 8 guards per 800 or 1% of that
sites resources went to the "security"
for THAT site......
lets say 1.5% for uniforms,guns,video,gates
---------
in the one example ticket LBB4 its says something
like 40+ billion in GDP for the client...
so 2% = 800 millionISH for "security"
and 4% = 1.6 billionISH
and 1.5% = 600 millionISH
i'm sure with all of the above they could
squeak out 5-10 million for an "operation"...
-------
lets say its a small mining company with
10 million GDP....they might have:
at 2% they have 200k in security funds
at 4% they have 400k
at 1.5% they have 150k....
your probably looking at them only being able to
afford 1-2 (4)man team(s) TOPs....and they could
probably give yah middle or low passage on
a trader(round trip)....
if you pro rate a veh. for use like an AFV
to see some of the cost that would be 30K
just like a ship 1/240th...
1 (4) man team might cost you 50k or so
so your pushing 100k for expenses out of
200k or 400k or 150k....
so the 150k job might not be a good idea
the 200k might be okay...but the 400k job
would be pertty doable...i would think...
one way to see what a ticket might look like
is to look at the GDP or the world or country
or company...
a world the size of ours might spend 2% of its GDP
on military type stuff...look at the CIA world factbook for info...
the USA does 4% of its GDP being a single country...
Boeing Co.(where i use to work)
at my site they had like 2 guards
per shift for 800 employees, so
since i dont know the wages of everyone
lets say 8 guards per 800 or 1% of that
sites resources went to the "security"
for THAT site......
lets say 1.5% for uniforms,guns,video,gates
---------
in the one example ticket LBB4 its says something
like 40+ billion in GDP for the client...
so 2% = 800 millionISH for "security"
and 4% = 1.6 billionISH
and 1.5% = 600 millionISH
i'm sure with all of the above they could
squeak out 5-10 million for an "operation"...
-------
lets say its a small mining company with
10 million GDP....they might have:
at 2% they have 200k in security funds
at 4% they have 400k
at 1.5% they have 150k....
your probably looking at them only being able to
afford 1-2 (4)man team(s) TOPs....and they could
probably give yah middle or low passage on
a trader(round trip)....
if you pro rate a veh. for use like an AFV
to see some of the cost that would be 30K
just like a ship 1/240th...
1 (4) man team might cost you 50k or so
so your pushing 100k for expenses out of
200k or 400k or 150k....
so the 150k job might not be a good idea
the 200k might be okay...but the 400k job
would be pertty doable...i would think...
aramis
December 4th, 2006, 01:13 AM
Given that Type R's with demountable Staterooms and demountable J2 tanks is quite able to make it off main. And it's canonical that it can, "In Search of Longer Legs", in The Traveller Adventure.
Owning the transports is not the same as having them be integral. Integral means, in this context, fully part of the unit, not part-timers.
A 400 Td ship is the largest that can routinely fill out under Bk2 given strict interpretations of the wordings, assuming trader=ship. (I've never considered the trader in that passage to refer to the ship, always to a person engaging in trade....)
Now, it's quite possible to build a J2 liner with demountable tankage for the second parsec (it costs a mere 4 tons, and 16 MCr... an extra 67KCr/month... but it gives a large bay, and makes a subsidy ship worthy of a mercenary unit subsidy.
Personally, I shoot for units to ask triple daily costs, +ammo and transport, and 1/10th combat equipment costs... generally, employers offer twice salaries and 1/10th combat equipment costs.
The reasons for not using locals in the army role:
</font> "instant experience"</font> "Not Us"</font> "We can't train fast enough"</font> Dealing with some untoward caste</font> have to keep the army troops ready for deployment off world</font> Enforcing unpopular rules</font> Don't want to pay veterans compensation</font>
Instant Experience: you hire mercs for the veterans who are already trained and experienced. Lining up mercs on your border, especially if they have "known units" in the vanguard, is psychological warfare of the highest form.
Not Us: Many societies will gleefully expend mercenaries simply to not send their own citizens off to battle. France comes to mind, with the Legion Etrangier... which has mostly foreigners in service to france, and was until recently (mid 20th C), still technically a mercenary unit. My understanding is that they have been absorbed into the French Army, but not fully integrated.
We can't train fast enough: It's been said that molding soldiers takes 6 months. If you can get a unit on-station in a month, a 3-9 month mercenary deployment to cover training up your own forces. Using the Bk 4 instruction rules, this is a reasonable timeframe, too.
Dealing with the awkward caste: in some cases, it may be a religious requirement to not engage in warfare by some caste or against some caste. In such cases, Mercenaries are a viable alternative in many such systems.
Have to keep the army ready to deploy: Just because your army is present doesn't mean you can use it as you want. Canon implies that local armies are the basis of the Imperial Army. You may have obligations for significant units.
Enforcing Unpopular Rules: In some societies, certain rules are seen as needed but unwelcome. Outsiders may be more willing to actually enforce these rules than locals.
Don't want to pay veterans compensation: This is most likely in rule of law type governments. Citizens might be willing, but the long term costs may far outweigh the costs of hiring mercenaries short term. Even so, many worlds will have term-contracts of several years... hiring mercs for a year or two is worth it if saves paying the same number of troops for 4 to 6 years...
Long term mercs make sense... in many cases. Not most, but many. In some cultures, for example, a Mennonite or equivalent population, hiring Mercs to meet your army commitment is a far better deal than forcing members of the Ordinum to go and commit sins.
Owning the transports is not the same as having them be integral. Integral means, in this context, fully part of the unit, not part-timers.
A 400 Td ship is the largest that can routinely fill out under Bk2 given strict interpretations of the wordings, assuming trader=ship. (I've never considered the trader in that passage to refer to the ship, always to a person engaging in trade....)
Now, it's quite possible to build a J2 liner with demountable tankage for the second parsec (it costs a mere 4 tons, and 16 MCr... an extra 67KCr/month... but it gives a large bay, and makes a subsidy ship worthy of a mercenary unit subsidy.
Personally, I shoot for units to ask triple daily costs, +ammo and transport, and 1/10th combat equipment costs... generally, employers offer twice salaries and 1/10th combat equipment costs.
The reasons for not using locals in the army role:
</font> "instant experience"</font> "Not Us"</font> "We can't train fast enough"</font> Dealing with some untoward caste</font> have to keep the army troops ready for deployment off world</font> Enforcing unpopular rules</font> Don't want to pay veterans compensation</font>
Instant Experience: you hire mercs for the veterans who are already trained and experienced. Lining up mercs on your border, especially if they have "known units" in the vanguard, is psychological warfare of the highest form.
Not Us: Many societies will gleefully expend mercenaries simply to not send their own citizens off to battle. France comes to mind, with the Legion Etrangier... which has mostly foreigners in service to france, and was until recently (mid 20th C), still technically a mercenary unit. My understanding is that they have been absorbed into the French Army, but not fully integrated.
We can't train fast enough: It's been said that molding soldiers takes 6 months. If you can get a unit on-station in a month, a 3-9 month mercenary deployment to cover training up your own forces. Using the Bk 4 instruction rules, this is a reasonable timeframe, too.
Dealing with the awkward caste: in some cases, it may be a religious requirement to not engage in warfare by some caste or against some caste. In such cases, Mercenaries are a viable alternative in many such systems.
Have to keep the army ready to deploy: Just because your army is present doesn't mean you can use it as you want. Canon implies that local armies are the basis of the Imperial Army. You may have obligations for significant units.
Enforcing Unpopular Rules: In some societies, certain rules are seen as needed but unwelcome. Outsiders may be more willing to actually enforce these rules than locals.
Don't want to pay veterans compensation: This is most likely in rule of law type governments. Citizens might be willing, but the long term costs may far outweigh the costs of hiring mercenaries short term. Even so, many worlds will have term-contracts of several years... hiring mercs for a year or two is worth it if saves paying the same number of troops for 4 to 6 years...
Long term mercs make sense... in many cases. Not most, but many. In some cultures, for example, a Mennonite or equivalent population, hiring Mercs to meet your army commitment is a far better deal than forcing members of the Ordinum to go and commit sins.
BetterThanLife
December 4th, 2006, 04:02 AM
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it. Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports. </font>[/QUOTE]In CT expenses on a 200 dTon liner are greater than 250 thousand credits per month.
The revenue is less than 200 thousand credits per month.
They can't be too small. </font>[/QUOTE]What is a 200 ton liner? The Free Trader, (at 200 tons) makes its expenses traveling at 80% capacity hauling freight. The Far Trader can not. The Subsidized Merchant can make a profit, (400 Tons, J-1). Anything bigger can't stay at or above 80% capacity using the standard tables. Anything J-2 and above isn't profitable using standard tables.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
Only large, slow, non-military ships can operate at a profit hauling cargo (CT rules). Using Merc Transports for commerce will either restrict the units to weak ships with a J1 speed or will only reduce the red ink - not eliminate it. Actually small slow ships will also generate a profit. However Sub-Liners will help defray their costs by working commercially when not transporting the unit. Further if carrying agents of the Unit they can also serve as marketing and recruiting transports. </font>[/QUOTE]In CT expenses on a 200 dTon liner are greater than 250 thousand credits per month.
The revenue is less than 200 thousand credits per month.
They can't be too small. </font>[/QUOTE]What is a 200 ton liner? The Free Trader, (at 200 tons) makes its expenses traveling at 80% capacity hauling freight. The Far Trader can not. The Subsidized Merchant can make a profit, (400 Tons, J-1). Anything bigger can't stay at or above 80% capacity using the standard tables. Anything J-2 and above isn't profitable using standard tables.
BetterThanLife
December 4th, 2006, 04:24 AM
Sid: 48 is a medium to large platoon compared to most canon sources. But the numbers look about right.
You can also convert some of that 129 +/- tons of cargo into additional staterooms. I do figure that a Type M is about right per platoon. However if I was going to deal with just a platoon, since you are dealing with only one ship, that ship should probably be either a Javelin, a Broadsword, or equivalent. Mostly because they carry small craft to put the Platoon down or pick it up from a hot LZ. A Liner doesn't include much in the way of getting to and from the surface.
I do agree that around 600 tons per Platoon seems about right for most platoons.
I tend to field more expensive units because on most worlds in the OTU the atmosphere isn't breathable, so Combat Armor becomes the order of the day. (Which significantly increases your costs.) Further Helicopters don't work on over 60% of the main worlds in the OTU. (Forget about things like working the orbitals, secondary planets, asteroid belts, etc. (Which is also why I tend towards light infantry instead of mech infantry, and support them with Light fighters instead of Tanks.) I personally would never design a unit around less than a Combat Environment Suit as standard Uniform. Troops are expensive, protect them.
You can also convert some of that 129 +/- tons of cargo into additional staterooms. I do figure that a Type M is about right per platoon. However if I was going to deal with just a platoon, since you are dealing with only one ship, that ship should probably be either a Javelin, a Broadsword, or equivalent. Mostly because they carry small craft to put the Platoon down or pick it up from a hot LZ. A Liner doesn't include much in the way of getting to and from the surface.
I do agree that around 600 tons per Platoon seems about right for most platoons.
I tend to field more expensive units because on most worlds in the OTU the atmosphere isn't breathable, so Combat Armor becomes the order of the day. (Which significantly increases your costs.) Further Helicopters don't work on over 60% of the main worlds in the OTU. (Forget about things like working the orbitals, secondary planets, asteroid belts, etc. (Which is also why I tend towards light infantry instead of mech infantry, and support them with Light fighters instead of Tanks.) I personally would never design a unit around less than a Combat Environment Suit as standard Uniform. Troops are expensive, protect them.
BetterThanLife
December 4th, 2006, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Aramis:
Given that Type R's with demountable Staterooms and demountable J2 tanks is quite able to make it off main. And it's canonical that it can, "In Search of Longer Legs", in The Traveller Adventure.Yes, a Type R can go two parsecs, with demountable tanks.
However given the high travel times you are still limiting yourself to a very small area of operations. Your tickets will run 2-3 months between them just to work a subsector with a main in it. Further while a Jump-2 ship can reach most systems in a typical Sector, it does take a while and usually a longer route to get there. A Jump 3 ship can typically get to every system in a typical sector, obviously working the Great Rift is excluded. smile.gif ) It can also usually take the shortest distance to the next system where there is a ticket. To work a medium populated subsector, even without a main in it, you can get between most worlds in 2-3 weeks.
Owning the transports is not the same as having them be integral. Integral means, in this context, fully part of the unit, not part-timers.I don't see the difference. The expenses of the ships still have to be met, and calculated. None of the canon tickets take the expenses of owning a ship into account.
A 400 Td ship is the largest that can routinely fill out under Bk2 given strict interpretations of the wordings, assuming trader=ship. (I've never considered the trader in that passage to refer to the ship, always to a person engaging in trade....)That depends on the jump capacity. A Liner can typically travel at 80+% capacity, same as a Fat Trader, but yes that range of capacity is about the limit of what can travel mostly full. (Though a liner can't make its expenses, even if it travels at 100% capacity.)
Now, it's quite possible to build a J2 liner with demountable tankage for the second parsec (it costs a mere 4 tons, and 16 MCr... an extra 67KCr/month... but it gives a large bay, and makes a subsidy ship worthy of a mercenary unit subsidy.This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.)
Personally, I shoot for units to ask triple daily costs, +ammo and transport, and 1/10th combat equipment costs... generally, employers offer twice salaries and 1/10th combat equipment costs.But how are you calculating the units daily costs?
The reasons for not using locals in the army role:
</font> "instant experience"</font> "Not Us"</font> "We can't train fast enough"</font> Dealing with some untoward caste</font> have to keep the army troops ready for deployment off world</font> Enforcing unpopular rules</font> Don't want to pay veterans compensation</font>
I amnot saying that long term tickets don't exist. Nor am I going to say that there won't be cushy mercenary jobs out there. However most worlds that are going to rely on Mercenary Units instead of main force military units, are not going to hire them to sit around, they will hire them only when they need them, only when the fecal matter impacts the rotating propeller.
If they decide to use Mercenaries before they need them they will typically be in unit sizes that are too small to actually accomplish what needs to be done if the fecal matter impacts... smile.gif They will hire a Platoon where a Company+ should be employed, a Company where a Batalion+ should be employed, etc.
Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?
To land that kind of contract, the unit will have to have a solid reputation and either seriously underbid the unit that currently has that contract or discredit and/or destroy the unit that currently has the contract, without having that tied to you. (And then avoid another unit doing the same to you.)
Given that Type R's with demountable Staterooms and demountable J2 tanks is quite able to make it off main. And it's canonical that it can, "In Search of Longer Legs", in The Traveller Adventure.Yes, a Type R can go two parsecs, with demountable tanks.
However given the high travel times you are still limiting yourself to a very small area of operations. Your tickets will run 2-3 months between them just to work a subsector with a main in it. Further while a Jump-2 ship can reach most systems in a typical Sector, it does take a while and usually a longer route to get there. A Jump 3 ship can typically get to every system in a typical sector, obviously working the Great Rift is excluded. smile.gif ) It can also usually take the shortest distance to the next system where there is a ticket. To work a medium populated subsector, even without a main in it, you can get between most worlds in 2-3 weeks.
Owning the transports is not the same as having them be integral. Integral means, in this context, fully part of the unit, not part-timers.I don't see the difference. The expenses of the ships still have to be met, and calculated. None of the canon tickets take the expenses of owning a ship into account.
A 400 Td ship is the largest that can routinely fill out under Bk2 given strict interpretations of the wordings, assuming trader=ship. (I've never considered the trader in that passage to refer to the ship, always to a person engaging in trade....)That depends on the jump capacity. A Liner can typically travel at 80+% capacity, same as a Fat Trader, but yes that range of capacity is about the limit of what can travel mostly full. (Though a liner can't make its expenses, even if it travels at 100% capacity.)
Now, it's quite possible to build a J2 liner with demountable tankage for the second parsec (it costs a mere 4 tons, and 16 MCr... an extra 67KCr/month... but it gives a large bay, and makes a subsidy ship worthy of a mercenary unit subsidy.This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.)
Personally, I shoot for units to ask triple daily costs, +ammo and transport, and 1/10th combat equipment costs... generally, employers offer twice salaries and 1/10th combat equipment costs.But how are you calculating the units daily costs?
The reasons for not using locals in the army role:
</font> "instant experience"</font> "Not Us"</font> "We can't train fast enough"</font> Dealing with some untoward caste</font> have to keep the army troops ready for deployment off world</font> Enforcing unpopular rules</font> Don't want to pay veterans compensation</font>
I amnot saying that long term tickets don't exist. Nor am I going to say that there won't be cushy mercenary jobs out there. However most worlds that are going to rely on Mercenary Units instead of main force military units, are not going to hire them to sit around, they will hire them only when they need them, only when the fecal matter impacts the rotating propeller.
If they decide to use Mercenaries before they need them they will typically be in unit sizes that are too small to actually accomplish what needs to be done if the fecal matter impacts... smile.gif They will hire a Platoon where a Company+ should be employed, a Company where a Batalion+ should be employed, etc.
Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?
To land that kind of contract, the unit will have to have a solid reputation and either seriously underbid the unit that currently has that contract or discredit and/or destroy the unit that currently has the contract, without having that tied to you. (And then avoid another unit doing the same to you.)
sid6.7
December 4th, 2006, 05:15 AM
yes i do have combat "clothes" included in the inital
10+ million setup buy. typically(for me) i would
head for classic temperate planet tickets.
not saying that there would be work there VS
extreme atmo's planets...just less to worry about
tech. wise and cost wise....
10+ million setup buy. typically(for me) i would
head for classic temperate planet tickets.
not saying that there would be work there VS
extreme atmo's planets...just less to worry about
tech. wise and cost wise....
sid6.7
December 4th, 2006, 05:19 AM
Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?
ummm i think that would be the adventure its SUPOSE
to be a cakewalk sec. job...but WHAMO.... :eek:
ummm i think that would be the adventure its SUPOSE
to be a cakewalk sec. job...but WHAMO.... :eek:
BetterThanLife
December 4th, 2006, 07:55 AM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?
ummm i think that would be the adventure its SUPOSE
to be a cakewalk sec. job...but WHAMO.... :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]Which is fine once in a great while, not on a regular basis. Normally missions have to run according to how the ticket specifies. (Not saying that there wouldn't be surprises, but not the whole mission going to crap like that.)
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Besides this is about running a Traveller Campaign. Where is the game value on running a Mercenary unit that sits on its butt with a cushy security job where nothing ever happens?
ummm i think that would be the adventure its SUPOSE
to be a cakewalk sec. job...but WHAMO.... :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]Which is fine once in a great while, not on a regular basis. Normally missions have to run according to how the ticket specifies. (Not saying that there wouldn't be surprises, but not the whole mission going to crap like that.)
atpollard
December 4th, 2006, 08:58 AM
A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.
Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc?
Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc?
Pickles
December 4th, 2006, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Normally missions have to run according to how the ticket specifies. (Not saying that there wouldn't be surprises, but not the whole mission going to crap like that.) What! You mean it's not normal to wipe out half your platoon, lose three very expensive robotic MRLs and get cheated out of your pay by a renegade patron every mission?
Dammit, where's that referee now ... that's two years of fraudulent gaming he owes me ... :mad:
Normally missions have to run according to how the ticket specifies. (Not saying that there wouldn't be surprises, but not the whole mission going to crap like that.) What! You mean it's not normal to wipe out half your platoon, lose three very expensive robotic MRLs and get cheated out of your pay by a renegade patron every mission?
Dammit, where's that referee now ... that's two years of fraudulent gaming he owes me ... :mad:
mbrinkhues
December 4th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by atpollard:
A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.
Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc? The more important questions are:
+ Do they come with doorgunners laying down covering fire
+ Do they come with Stereos blasting "Ride of the Valkiries" or "Paint it black"
+ Do Vagrs surf?
A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.
Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc? The more important questions are:
+ Do they come with doorgunners laying down covering fire
+ Do they come with Stereos blasting "Ride of the Valkiries" or "Paint it black"
+ Do Vagrs surf?
BetterThanLife
December 4th, 2006, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by atpollard:
A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.
Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc? It should be added to the fees. In EA6, the unit is actually expected to use their Javelin Class Mercenary Unit and the fees in no way reflect the potential losses incurred if the ship were to take a hit.
A 400 dTon ship with a few points of starship armor and 4 tripple turrets integrated with its unit would make a heck of a gun platform for support. Huey's eat your heart out.
Could that be added to the fee for the unit, like a tank or apc? It should be added to the fees. In EA6, the unit is actually expected to use their Javelin Class Mercenary Unit and the fees in no way reflect the potential losses incurred if the ship were to take a hit.
Hal
December 5th, 2006, 04:05 AM
One thing to consider here is that expendables used during the course of the job would be considered as part of the fee that should be negotiated in advance. Those multiple rocket launchers are all pretty devices until you press the button to launch them at the enemy. The problem isn't so much as an accounting action where the patron is required to pay in advance for everything, nor is the patron obligated to remunerate any losses of war per se. It is a business contract/agreement between the Mercenary unit's negotiator and the patron. If the unit needs to use an 800 dton broadsword in the contract up front, then it is likely the contract will include this in their fees up front. If on the other hand, it is not required, and the fee was not negotiated, you can be certain that the Leader of the unit is going to perform what is otherwise known as "risk assessment" and act accordingly. If using the asset will insure the survival of the unit or make it a certain proposition it will fulfill its contract, that's one thing. If on the other hand, there is a good chance that the asset would be lost AND the unit not be able to fulfill its contract, you can be certain that a tense drama laced moment will be endured as the order to use the asset is either not given (giving rise to disappointment and even fear) or directly countermanded by someone who controls the asset itself. The thinking would be "We can get more bodies easily enough, but we can't get another ship".
All things considered - being a mercenary captain/outfit owner requires that you assess what the risks are ahead of time, determine if you have the assets to perform the task without incurring a major loss, or bet on the whole affair as if it were a horserace with unknown horses. Those that bet as if it were a horserace, often fail and go bankrupt. Those who guess well enough and hedge their bets well enough to make what seems to be excessive profits, but in reality are hedging against failures and are survival margins when times are lean - survive. Those that not only succeed constantly, but make what seem to be obscene profits and also never need to dig into the "survival bank" margins - end up being wildly successful.
Trick is - which category does the "unit in question" fall under ;)
All things considered - being a mercenary captain/outfit owner requires that you assess what the risks are ahead of time, determine if you have the assets to perform the task without incurring a major loss, or bet on the whole affair as if it were a horserace with unknown horses. Those that bet as if it were a horserace, often fail and go bankrupt. Those who guess well enough and hedge their bets well enough to make what seems to be excessive profits, but in reality are hedging against failures and are survival margins when times are lean - survive. Those that not only succeed constantly, but make what seem to be obscene profits and also never need to dig into the "survival bank" margins - end up being wildly successful.
Trick is - which category does the "unit in question" fall under ;)
Golan2072
December 5th, 2006, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions. Absolutely. Though in this case are they also subsidizing the Inherent Transport?</font>[/QUOTE]If the polity would want a merc unit with legs, it would probably either subsidize a transport for it or arrangefor it to be carried on a subsidized merchant (or detached-duty scout for small commando or cadre outfits). It all boils down to what mission the polity has in mind for the merc outfit it subsidizes.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
Ofcourse, a polity might subsidize merc units under certain conditions. Absolutely. Though in this case are they also subsidizing the Inherent Transport?</font>[/QUOTE]If the polity would want a merc unit with legs, it would probably either subsidize a transport for it or arrangefor it to be carried on a subsidized merchant (or detached-duty scout for small commando or cadre outfits). It all boils down to what mission the polity has in mind for the merc outfit it subsidizes.
aramis
December 5th, 2006, 06:38 PM
BTL:
This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.) You missed the mention of the demountables. By using demountables for the second parsec, you don't drastically impair the on-mains performance. You only lose the 40 tons of cargo for fuel when you need to. Collapsables are better for travel, but can't be used for jump fuel, however, they to have a place. Demountables and drops ARE useable.
This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.) You missed the mention of the demountables. By using demountables for the second parsec, you don't drastically impair the on-mains performance. You only lose the 40 tons of cargo for fuel when you need to. Collapsables are better for travel, but can't be used for jump fuel, however, they to have a place. Demountables and drops ARE useable.
BetterThanLife
December 6th, 2006, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Aramis:
BTL:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.) You missed the mention of the demountables. By using demountables for the second parsec, you don't drastically impair the on-mains performance. You only lose the 40 tons of cargo for fuel when you need to. Collapsables are better for travel, but can't be used for jump fuel, however, they to have a place. Demountables and drops ARE useable. </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't miss it. I thought you did. You still need the 40 tons to actually go someplace. You have to plan the full load of the ship to be with the full fuel load, even though you could leave the tanks behind and travel a short distance without them. Filling the hold, planning on not using them is a bad idea.
BTL:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />This confused me, though that is easily accomplished. Did you mean that you could build a Jump 2 Subsidized Merchant? Wouldn't that be 44 tons? (Including the tanks.) You missed the mention of the demountables. By using demountables for the second parsec, you don't drastically impair the on-mains performance. You only lose the 40 tons of cargo for fuel when you need to. Collapsables are better for travel, but can't be used for jump fuel, however, they to have a place. Demountables and drops ARE useable. </font>[/QUOTE]I didn't miss it. I thought you did. You still need the 40 tons to actually go someplace. You have to plan the full load of the ship to be with the full fuel load, even though you could leave the tanks behind and travel a short distance without them. Filling the hold, planning on not using them is a bad idea.
aramis
December 6th, 2006, 01:05 AM
Depends upon one's needs, BTL, depends upon one's needs. A subbie can make a good run of it on many different mains and clusters. Having the drive is nice, and under MT, DOES reduce your fuel costs for J1 (1/2 of 15%, for J2 is 7.5%, versus 10% for J1 on a J1 drive). There's no FUEL benefit under CT/T4/T20... but the flexibility to fill the hold when working a main IS a benefit to the subsidy owner.
No typo, no overlook... Type R's base carry is about 195 Td... and a company can move (in varying shades of easy) in 150. Which means you have room for the extra 40 Td of fuel to use the second parsec when moving troops.
Even light armor (5-6 Td light Tanks) company can load up in a 150 ton allotment.
No typo, no overlook... Type R's base carry is about 195 Td... and a company can move (in varying shades of easy) in 150. Which means you have room for the extra 40 Td of fuel to use the second parsec when moving troops.
Even light armor (5-6 Td light Tanks) company can load up in a 150 ton allotment.
sid6.7
December 6th, 2006, 01:59 PM
i went over the 5 example tickets and extrapolated
up or down my platoon unit to fit ea. one.
All would be profitable and the pattern tends to be what i thought.
When DESIGNING the tickets your
gonna have to offer someone basiclly a dbl fee.
whatever the merc's expenses are X 2 to get any
kind of merc to take your offer.
I.E
if it costs him 1 million per operation to run it
your gonna have to offer 2 million for any kind
of merc to take it. that extra million would go
to the company and shares....the company end
would probably still get a redcution for ammo.
and it doesnt matter if transport is provided
for or not. if the ticket takes care of transport
then its not part of your expenses, if you provide
the transport its part of the expenses, end of
discussion.
from the merc side it would be very unwise
to take ANYTHING below a 50%+ profit per
expenses esp. if HE provides the transport.
you just run to great of risk at going red
over ammo and shares.
the 500k ticket in LBB4 would have to be run by
only a fireteam or 2 to provide any kind of profit.
if your expenses for your 2 teams is
gona be more the 250k for the operation i wouldnt
take it.
-----------------------------------------------
ammo seems to be a wildcard to me...but then thats
the idea with an RPG...can you get it done for less or not...
i'm baseing this on ammo for a SAS team video
that i saw where they (for 2-3 weeks?) ASSumed
they could get it done with 400-600 rounds per
man.
up or down my platoon unit to fit ea. one.
All would be profitable and the pattern tends to be what i thought.
When DESIGNING the tickets your
gonna have to offer someone basiclly a dbl fee.
whatever the merc's expenses are X 2 to get any
kind of merc to take your offer.
I.E
if it costs him 1 million per operation to run it
your gonna have to offer 2 million for any kind
of merc to take it. that extra million would go
to the company and shares....the company end
would probably still get a redcution for ammo.
and it doesnt matter if transport is provided
for or not. if the ticket takes care of transport
then its not part of your expenses, if you provide
the transport its part of the expenses, end of
discussion.
from the merc side it would be very unwise
to take ANYTHING below a 50%+ profit per
expenses esp. if HE provides the transport.
you just run to great of risk at going red
over ammo and shares.
the 500k ticket in LBB4 would have to be run by
only a fireteam or 2 to provide any kind of profit.
if your expenses for your 2 teams is
gona be more the 250k for the operation i wouldnt
take it.
-----------------------------------------------
ammo seems to be a wildcard to me...but then thats
the idea with an RPG...can you get it done for less or not...
i'm baseing this on ammo for a SAS team video
that i saw where they (for 2-3 weeks?) ASSumed
they could get it done with 400-600 rounds per
man.
BetterThanLife
December 6th, 2006, 04:24 PM
If you include Salaries in the expenses category then I was thinking about 1.5 to 2 times the expenses. Mostly because you are going to have down time between tickets. The issue is still a reasonable estimate on expenses.
Average firefight is a basic load of ammunition. (About 6-10 magazines for bullet launchers.) Basic Load for the typical Energy weapons is 2 packs, Laser rifle is one. Typical combat environment figure a basic load per day. For a lower threat area, figure half that. For a high threat situation, like take and hold a key piece of terrain, against serious resistance until relieved, figure twice that.(More in some extreme circumstances.)
Vehicles run about the same, A basic load being integral magazines in most cases. The exception that most energy weapon systems can run a good long time, as long as you keep them in fuel. You may have to park and charge the battery up, with some vehicles, between firefights, but there will be down time to do that. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the MRL's which will likely need to be reloaded 6-12 times a day.
As long as you are dealing with bullet launchers ammunition isn't all that expensive, (Especially when you buy in bulk.) but it will still add up.
I keep coming back, in my mind to arming Mercenary units with Laser rifles. Ammo is definitely cheaper, it doesn't appreciably weigh more, and short term it isn't that much more expensive. However it lacks any suppressive capability and it lacks the RAM Grenade launcher for light anti-armor work. Of course there is no high tech squad/platoon suppressive fire weapon in the bullet launcher variety either, in Traveller.
Average firefight is a basic load of ammunition. (About 6-10 magazines for bullet launchers.) Basic Load for the typical Energy weapons is 2 packs, Laser rifle is one. Typical combat environment figure a basic load per day. For a lower threat area, figure half that. For a high threat situation, like take and hold a key piece of terrain, against serious resistance until relieved, figure twice that.(More in some extreme circumstances.)
Vehicles run about the same, A basic load being integral magazines in most cases. The exception that most energy weapon systems can run a good long time, as long as you keep them in fuel. You may have to park and charge the battery up, with some vehicles, between firefights, but there will be down time to do that. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the MRL's which will likely need to be reloaded 6-12 times a day.
As long as you are dealing with bullet launchers ammunition isn't all that expensive, (Especially when you buy in bulk.) but it will still add up.
I keep coming back, in my mind to arming Mercenary units with Laser rifles. Ammo is definitely cheaper, it doesn't appreciably weigh more, and short term it isn't that much more expensive. However it lacks any suppressive capability and it lacks the RAM Grenade launcher for light anti-armor work. Of course there is no high tech squad/platoon suppressive fire weapon in the bullet launcher variety either, in Traveller.
far-trader
December 6th, 2006, 04:42 PM
There's really no reason you can't have a rapid fire sqaud laser like a Heavy MG. Figure one to carry the gun and tripod, one to carry the powerfeed, and one to carry a couple extra energy packs. Grant it a reasonable ROF and use the Laser Rifle stats with autofire bonuses.
Unless you're thinking suppressive fire won't work because there's no readily available evidence that you're under heavy fire and no clear sign of just where the beaten zone is. That can be fixed by changing the laser frequency. Or if you're worried that they might then pop smoke you could have the laser fire a "tracer round" every cycle of x "rounds" so you fire through the smoke most of the time and the rest of the time they see they are still under fire.
Of course using visible laser fire has a nasty consequence of leaving a very accurate trace right back to your position smile.gif
There's also no reason to not have a ruggedized Laser Rifle with an underslung grenade launcher. To make it more high-techy I've used small plasma grenades and an electromagnetic launcher.
Unless you're thinking suppressive fire won't work because there's no readily available evidence that you're under heavy fire and no clear sign of just where the beaten zone is. That can be fixed by changing the laser frequency. Or if you're worried that they might then pop smoke you could have the laser fire a "tracer round" every cycle of x "rounds" so you fire through the smoke most of the time and the rest of the time they see they are still under fire.
Of course using visible laser fire has a nasty consequence of leaving a very accurate trace right back to your position smile.gif
There's also no reason to not have a ruggedized Laser Rifle with an underslung grenade launcher. To make it more high-techy I've used small plasma grenades and an electromagnetic launcher.
atpollard
December 6th, 2006, 04:56 PM
With units working for a fee of double their expenses, the expression “solitary, nasty, short and brutish� sure seems to describe a mercenary life. I would expect to earn more than that just driving a truck across Iraq. Aren’t these units usually outnumbered and in harm’s way? What ever happened to the concept of “High Risk, High Gain� – where is the potential for high gain.
You need a sign that says “Will Kill For Food – God Bless�.
You need a sign that says “Will Kill For Food – God Bless�.
atpollard
December 6th, 2006, 05:12 PM
From the news desk:
Mercenary / Private Military Companies (PMCs)
The term mercenary is applied to a variety of historical situations which do not appear to have elements in common. Casca, the eternal mercenary, pulled the duty of nailing Christ to the Cross and was doomed to spend eternity as a soldier, a career that can lead to billets like sitting on five-gallon water cans in the cold desert wind on Christmas Eve in Saudi Arabia.
Estimates of the number of private international security personnel range from 15,000 to 20,000. That is as much as 15 percent of the total US presence of about 130,000 soldiers. These private contractors -- who most often work for corporations, diplomats, or journalists -- have no accountability to the US military. These private security contractors can earn up to $1,000 a day. NATO forces have used private soldiers for security in the Balkans. But the proportion of private security personnel to regular military soldiers was no greater than 10 percent.
How much is $1000 per day in credits?
Mercenary / Private Military Companies (PMCs)
The term mercenary is applied to a variety of historical situations which do not appear to have elements in common. Casca, the eternal mercenary, pulled the duty of nailing Christ to the Cross and was doomed to spend eternity as a soldier, a career that can lead to billets like sitting on five-gallon water cans in the cold desert wind on Christmas Eve in Saudi Arabia.
Estimates of the number of private international security personnel range from 15,000 to 20,000. That is as much as 15 percent of the total US presence of about 130,000 soldiers. These private contractors -- who most often work for corporations, diplomats, or journalists -- have no accountability to the US military. These private security contractors can earn up to $1,000 a day. NATO forces have used private soldiers for security in the Balkans. But the proportion of private security personnel to regular military soldiers was no greater than 10 percent.
How much is $1000 per day in credits?
BetterThanLife
December 6th, 2006, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by far-trader:
There's really no reason you can't have a rapid fire sqaud laser like a Heavy MG. Figure one to carry the gun and tripod, one to carry the powerfeed, and one to carry a couple extra energy packs. Grant it a reasonable ROF and use the Laser Rifle stats with autofire bonuses.These days a Squad Automatic Weapon is actually a one man weapon. With the fireteam carrying extra ammo. The Russian RPK, the British LSW, and the M249 being typical of the current genre. At Platoon level it is the General Purpose Machinegun. (Which is typically a 3 man crew, though one of them simply carries extra ammo and uses their individual weapon.) Either of them can be fired on the move if need be and neither needs a tripod, though the GPMG does generally have one. (And it is definitely better on a tripod.)
Unless you're thinking suppressive fire won't work because there's no readily available evidence that you're under heavy fire and no clear sign of just where the beaten zone is. That can be fixed by changing the laser frequency. Or if you're worried that they might then pop smoke you could have the laser fire a "tracer round" every cycle of x "rounds" so you fire through the smoke most of the time and the rest of the time they see they are still under fire. That is definitely a concern. Machineguns put people's heads down by the noise and the collateral damage.
For example, going back to WWII. You are just as likely to get dead if a BAR or Bren Gun (about 7.62mm) was shooting at you as you would if a M2 (12.7mm) was firing at you. Even though there would be many more 30 caliber rounds flying around, (rate of fire of a typical 30 caliber machinegun was 2 to 3 times that of a 50 cal.) the .50 would put heads down faster. It is bigger, noisier and blows through light to medium cover like it isn't there. Psychologically, it is a nastier customer.
Getting fired on by a laser psychologically isn't as scary. (And you don't want nice straight lines showing where you are so I wouldn't go with visible light. smile.gif ) Though how well suppressive fire would work in a vacuum with no noise is untested. I don't see it working as well as big noisy machineguns.
On the other side of a coin, a Sniper can suppress a unit with a handful of careful shots. There is something scary about the guy next to you suddenly getting killed without warning as well.
The objective of most suppressive fire, isn't to kill people, it is to put their heads down. Mostly so you can maneuver someone close enough to kill them, or so you can go around them. A weapon with no visible or auditory effect won't be as effective in that role.
Of course using visible laser fire has a nasty consequence of leaving a very accurate trace right back to your position smile.gif
There's also no reason to not have a ruggedized Laser Rifle with an underslung grenade launcher. To make it more high-techy I've used small plasma grenades and an electromagnetic launcher. I agree here but the RAM grenades were originally rifle grenades, not M203 style launchers. (Though IMTU they have always been M203 style.) There are no rules for this. (But then again we are working on a consensus for how to do this in the absence of rules. smile.gif
I remember reading about a Gauss SAW in TNE. Does anyone have the stats for it? (And the TNE stats for a Gauss Rifle and an ACR for comparison sake. smile.gif )
There's really no reason you can't have a rapid fire sqaud laser like a Heavy MG. Figure one to carry the gun and tripod, one to carry the powerfeed, and one to carry a couple extra energy packs. Grant it a reasonable ROF and use the Laser Rifle stats with autofire bonuses.These days a Squad Automatic Weapon is actually a one man weapon. With the fireteam carrying extra ammo. The Russian RPK, the British LSW, and the M249 being typical of the current genre. At Platoon level it is the General Purpose Machinegun. (Which is typically a 3 man crew, though one of them simply carries extra ammo and uses their individual weapon.) Either of them can be fired on the move if need be and neither needs a tripod, though the GPMG does generally have one. (And it is definitely better on a tripod.)
Unless you're thinking suppressive fire won't work because there's no readily available evidence that you're under heavy fire and no clear sign of just where the beaten zone is. That can be fixed by changing the laser frequency. Or if you're worried that they might then pop smoke you could have the laser fire a "tracer round" every cycle of x "rounds" so you fire through the smoke most of the time and the rest of the time they see they are still under fire. That is definitely a concern. Machineguns put people's heads down by the noise and the collateral damage.
For example, going back to WWII. You are just as likely to get dead if a BAR or Bren Gun (about 7.62mm) was shooting at you as you would if a M2 (12.7mm) was firing at you. Even though there would be many more 30 caliber rounds flying around, (rate of fire of a typical 30 caliber machinegun was 2 to 3 times that of a 50 cal.) the .50 would put heads down faster. It is bigger, noisier and blows through light to medium cover like it isn't there. Psychologically, it is a nastier customer.
Getting fired on by a laser psychologically isn't as scary. (And you don't want nice straight lines showing where you are so I wouldn't go with visible light. smile.gif ) Though how well suppressive fire would work in a vacuum with no noise is untested. I don't see it working as well as big noisy machineguns.
On the other side of a coin, a Sniper can suppress a unit with a handful of careful shots. There is something scary about the guy next to you suddenly getting killed without warning as well.
The objective of most suppressive fire, isn't to kill people, it is to put their heads down. Mostly so you can maneuver someone close enough to kill them, or so you can go around them. A weapon with no visible or auditory effect won't be as effective in that role.
Of course using visible laser fire has a nasty consequence of leaving a very accurate trace right back to your position smile.gif
There's also no reason to not have a ruggedized Laser Rifle with an underslung grenade launcher. To make it more high-techy I've used small plasma grenades and an electromagnetic launcher. I agree here but the RAM grenades were originally rifle grenades, not M203 style launchers. (Though IMTU they have always been M203 style.) There are no rules for this. (But then again we are working on a consensus for how to do this in the absence of rules. smile.gif
I remember reading about a Gauss SAW in TNE. Does anyone have the stats for it? (And the TNE stats for a Gauss Rifle and an ACR for comparison sake. smile.gif )
sid6.7
December 6th, 2006, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
With units working for a fee of double their expenses, the expression “solitary, nasty, short and brutish” sure seems to describe a mercenary life. I would expect to earn more than that just driving a truck across Iraq. Aren’t these units usually outnumbered and in harm’s way? What ever happened to the concept of “High Risk, High Gain” – where is the potential for high gain.
You need a sign that says “Will Kill For Food – God Bless”. i guess i have to be more specific again... :(
i thought i implied that would be MINIMUM a dbl fee....
to get a better deal i'm sure is a given if your a savy ticket finder.....
With units working for a fee of double their expenses, the expression “solitary, nasty, short and brutish” sure seems to describe a mercenary life. I would expect to earn more than that just driving a truck across Iraq. Aren’t these units usually outnumbered and in harm’s way? What ever happened to the concept of “High Risk, High Gain” – where is the potential for high gain.
You need a sign that says “Will Kill For Food – God Bless”. i guess i have to be more specific again... :(
i thought i implied that would be MINIMUM a dbl fee....
to get a better deal i'm sure is a given if your a savy ticket finder.....
atpollard
December 6th, 2006, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
i guess i have to be more specific again... :(
i thought i implied that would be MINIMUM a dbl fee....
to get a better deal i'm sure is a given if your a savy ticket finder..... I understand the point you were making and I agree. I was also just pointing out that that was a minimum and not a normal fee. Grocers charge a 100% mark up, they should pay you more when someone is trying to kill you.
I don't want you to think I was criticizing your comments.
i guess i have to be more specific again... :(
i thought i implied that would be MINIMUM a dbl fee....
to get a better deal i'm sure is a given if your a savy ticket finder..... I understand the point you were making and I agree. I was also just pointing out that that was a minimum and not a normal fee. Grocers charge a 100% mark up, they should pay you more when someone is trying to kill you.
I don't want you to think I was criticizing your comments.
Whipsnade
December 6th, 2006, 10:25 PM
Gents,
As usual, superb thread and excellent posts.
FWIW:
After tackling the economics issues for campaigns IMTU many years ago, I decided that many merc outfits were patrons of larger, more powerful, more wealthy organizations. For lack of a better term, they are 'owned' by someone else.
You've all parsed the numbers in this thread; transport, kit, heavy equipment, personnel, all of it. The money required adds up quickly. The 'buy-in' fee for even a platoon-sized outfit is substantial.
But what if someone helped with the 'check'?
IMTU, the larger a unit is and more equipment it owns, the better chance that someone has a 'string' on it. Just how substantial that 'string' is - first call on services, vetting prospective tickets, arranging tickets, arranging transport, limiting tickets within a certain region, etc. - depends on how much help the merc unit recieves.
Look at the OTU, we've got corporations of various sizes, noble families, world governments, national governments, ministries, even inviduals with loads of credits. Each and every one of them is either actively engaged in power politics or threatened by the same.
The canonical references are myriad. Al Morai keeps a flotilla of Gazelles. SuSAG is said to have substantial security services because of its business. Nobles are allowed huscarles. All of this costs money, so why not have those troopers earn a little money to help defray the cost?
The references in fiction are there too. Drake's 'Slammers' started out as 'foreign legion' of sorts for Freidland, a legion that mutinied and bugged out after winning the war Freidland recruited it for. Pournelle's Falkenberg was in reality a covert asset of the CoDo Fleet, a covert asset that occasionally had to fund itself but one that always kept its master's agenda in mind.
The references in real life exist too. During the heyday of the merc trade; 1960/70s Africa, most outfits were working for the US, USSR, or apartheid-era South Africa. There may have been many levels between the mercs and their ultimate paymasters, but the links were still there. That Biafran tommygunner was an independent, but the folks hiring him weren't.
IMTU, independent outfits like Broadsword are the exception and not the rule.
IMTU, most outfits exist as cadre and only 'bulk up' when a contract is signed. Many don't even flesh out completely until they reach the job!
IMTU, most independent outfits are light infantry. Specialized kit and heavy equipment costs money and money means 'strings'.
IMTU, looking at the classic LBB:4 tickets:
Striker Mission: Marastan - Definitely a 'strings' contract. It even states that LSP is providing the money for Clan Hardretter. You can bet the LSP district manager told the clan hetman exactly who to hire.
Commando: Poroszlo - Fighting between two blocs, one of which wants fewer restrictions on corporations? Got 'strings' written all over it.
Cadre: Aramis - Training a horde of militia and leading only two full-time infantry companies? Independents could have a chance here.
Security: Jokotre - Bodyguard work and could easily be an independent job.
Dream: Aramanx - Nothing but 'string' outfits here. Megacorp interest is mentioned explicitly.
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
As usual, superb thread and excellent posts.
FWIW:
After tackling the economics issues for campaigns IMTU many years ago, I decided that many merc outfits were patrons of larger, more powerful, more wealthy organizations. For lack of a better term, they are 'owned' by someone else.
You've all parsed the numbers in this thread; transport, kit, heavy equipment, personnel, all of it. The money required adds up quickly. The 'buy-in' fee for even a platoon-sized outfit is substantial.
But what if someone helped with the 'check'?
IMTU, the larger a unit is and more equipment it owns, the better chance that someone has a 'string' on it. Just how substantial that 'string' is - first call on services, vetting prospective tickets, arranging tickets, arranging transport, limiting tickets within a certain region, etc. - depends on how much help the merc unit recieves.
Look at the OTU, we've got corporations of various sizes, noble families, world governments, national governments, ministries, even inviduals with loads of credits. Each and every one of them is either actively engaged in power politics or threatened by the same.
The canonical references are myriad. Al Morai keeps a flotilla of Gazelles. SuSAG is said to have substantial security services because of its business. Nobles are allowed huscarles. All of this costs money, so why not have those troopers earn a little money to help defray the cost?
The references in fiction are there too. Drake's 'Slammers' started out as 'foreign legion' of sorts for Freidland, a legion that mutinied and bugged out after winning the war Freidland recruited it for. Pournelle's Falkenberg was in reality a covert asset of the CoDo Fleet, a covert asset that occasionally had to fund itself but one that always kept its master's agenda in mind.
The references in real life exist too. During the heyday of the merc trade; 1960/70s Africa, most outfits were working for the US, USSR, or apartheid-era South Africa. There may have been many levels between the mercs and their ultimate paymasters, but the links were still there. That Biafran tommygunner was an independent, but the folks hiring him weren't.
IMTU, independent outfits like Broadsword are the exception and not the rule.
IMTU, most outfits exist as cadre and only 'bulk up' when a contract is signed. Many don't even flesh out completely until they reach the job!
IMTU, most independent outfits are light infantry. Specialized kit and heavy equipment costs money and money means 'strings'.
IMTU, looking at the classic LBB:4 tickets:
Striker Mission: Marastan - Definitely a 'strings' contract. It even states that LSP is providing the money for Clan Hardretter. You can bet the LSP district manager told the clan hetman exactly who to hire.
Commando: Poroszlo - Fighting between two blocs, one of which wants fewer restrictions on corporations? Got 'strings' written all over it.
Cadre: Aramis - Training a horde of militia and leading only two full-time infantry companies? Independents could have a chance here.
Security: Jokotre - Bodyguard work and could easily be an independent job.
Dream: Aramanx - Nothing but 'string' outfits here. Megacorp interest is mentioned explicitly.
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 6th, 2006, 11:22 PM
Well Bill, Except for one minor little detail. It doesn't really matter who is funding the Mercenary Unit. In general a wealthy backer is required up front, one way or another, however wealthy people or Corporations, are not going to get into this without an expectation of Profit. Sure you might get someone occasionally that wants to own a Mercenary Unit for the sake of owning one, but the rule, not the exception, should be that they show a profit.
LBB4 stated that after expenses for an operation, the profits were divided in half. Half goes to the owners of the unit and the other half is divided as shares. While a long ranged thinker might think it is OK to not show a profit for 5 years, this isn't exactly a low risk investment. So it needs to start showing some kind of reasonable return with the first ticket.
Too many people think that rich patrons and governments have no problem with just shelling out money at a loss to fund Player Characters on one scheme or another. Just like bank loans for Starships, if there is no return then the money doesn't flow.
If Units are unstable, in general, then nobody will back them and their gear has to come from someplace. Can you have a rag tag band of ad hoc Mercs. Sure. But only someone desperate would hire them and they are definitely unlikely to be bankrolled. The Mercs hired in LBB4, 76 Patrons, Adventure 7, and EA 6 and EA 7, are professionals. The majority of them are standing units. In Traveller Mercenary units are generations old with long histories. Some will be newer, some will be ad hoc units, and some tickets will require multiple small units brought together to accomplish the mission.
To bankroll an endeavor such as this, where you are providing weapons and letting them go out and shoot at people and in return get your investment shot at, requires some serious convincing that the person or people you are backing are indeed the right person or people to lead the unit and have a solid business plan for it, to include a reasonable return on your investment.
LBB4 stated that after expenses for an operation, the profits were divided in half. Half goes to the owners of the unit and the other half is divided as shares. While a long ranged thinker might think it is OK to not show a profit for 5 years, this isn't exactly a low risk investment. So it needs to start showing some kind of reasonable return with the first ticket.
Too many people think that rich patrons and governments have no problem with just shelling out money at a loss to fund Player Characters on one scheme or another. Just like bank loans for Starships, if there is no return then the money doesn't flow.
If Units are unstable, in general, then nobody will back them and their gear has to come from someplace. Can you have a rag tag band of ad hoc Mercs. Sure. But only someone desperate would hire them and they are definitely unlikely to be bankrolled. The Mercs hired in LBB4, 76 Patrons, Adventure 7, and EA 6 and EA 7, are professionals. The majority of them are standing units. In Traveller Mercenary units are generations old with long histories. Some will be newer, some will be ad hoc units, and some tickets will require multiple small units brought together to accomplish the mission.
To bankroll an endeavor such as this, where you are providing weapons and letting them go out and shoot at people and in return get your investment shot at, requires some serious convincing that the person or people you are backing are indeed the right person or people to lead the unit and have a solid business plan for it, to include a reasonable return on your investment.
Piper
December 7th, 2006, 12:23 AM
All of the tickets in Book 4 are capable of generating a profit; in some cases, a substantial profit. Whether they actually do or not is largely in the hands of the referee.
The ticket as originally presented in Adventure 7 is potentially profitable. The situation on the ground presents the players with new challenges but also provides new opportunities. Given that the opposition is substantially different from what was indicated in the original contract, re-negotiation would seem a likely option. The Escort scenario, in particular, is arguably outside the scope of the original contract and could be negotiated as a separate ticket. These factors require interaction between the players and the referee.
Patron financing, client support in equipment, logistics and transportation, the size and nature of the opposition are major factors in determining the success and/or profitability of any given ticket. These fall within the responsibility of the referee.
If you're running a mercenary campaign, you need to craft tickets to suit the size and equipment of the unit in play and the style of game desired. Overall profit from a series of tickets is more important than a straight formula because it allows you to maintain control over the unit.
The ticket as originally presented in Adventure 7 is potentially profitable. The situation on the ground presents the players with new challenges but also provides new opportunities. Given that the opposition is substantially different from what was indicated in the original contract, re-negotiation would seem a likely option. The Escort scenario, in particular, is arguably outside the scope of the original contract and could be negotiated as a separate ticket. These factors require interaction between the players and the referee.
Patron financing, client support in equipment, logistics and transportation, the size and nature of the opposition are major factors in determining the success and/or profitability of any given ticket. These fall within the responsibility of the referee.
If you're running a mercenary campaign, you need to craft tickets to suit the size and equipment of the unit in play and the style of game desired. Overall profit from a series of tickets is more important than a straight formula because it allows you to maintain control over the unit.
BetterThanLife
December 7th, 2006, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Piper:
All of the tickets in Book 4 are capable of generating a profit; in some cases, a substantial profit. Whether they actually do or not is largely in the hands of the referee.
The ticket as originally presented in Adventure 7 is potentially profitable. The situation on the ground presents the players with new challenges but also provides new opportunities. Given that the opposition is substantially different from what was indicated in the original contract, re-negotiation would seem a likely option. The Escort scenario, in particular, is arguably outside the scope of the original contract and could be negotiated as a separate ticket. These factors require interaction between the players and the referee.
Patron financing, client support in equipment, logistics and transportation, the size and nature of the opposition are major factors in determining the success and/or profitability of any given ticket. These fall within the responsibility of the referee.
If you're running a mercenary campaign, you need to craft tickets to suit the size and equipment of the unit in play and the style of game desired. Overall profit from a series of tickets is more important than a straight formula because it allows you to maintain control over the unit. The Ticket in Adventure 7 has the most potential for profit. Yet as originally written, is the only canon ticket that pays that well. Further it has serious potential for loss. If the cutters are deployed in support of the unit, then damage to one of them, given the actual vs. perceived threat, is clearly possible, will quickly run the ticket well into the loss column.
Using the Broadsword in Naval combat, is definitely not covered in the ticket, and could run the entire ticket so far into the loss column that the unit could never recover. (Just a couple of points of damage to the powerplant, loss of a couple of laser turrets and you are losing more than twice what the ticket pays.)
LBB4 tickets, have potential for profit. (I never said they didn't.) However looking at the company tickets. The commando company has the best potential for serious profit. (Especially since it is a light force where the Patron is supplying transport in, which implies little to no vehicles.) However attacking an Air Cav Company, with a Company, then holding the ground with light forces against the balance of the Air Cav Battalion and counter attacks from Mechanized forces in Battalion Strength means that a light force is unlikely to survive to spend the money. (Especially without Artillery or Air Support.) The backers would be happy though, less people to pay.
In a light commando company the only real assets that the unit has is the people and you will lose lots of them. (It feels like Operation Market Garden and the opposition in that mission couldn't mount this kind of strength to retake the bridges.)
This ticket is actually likely to pay no more than the ticket in Adventure 7 and that is for a Platoon.
The Security Mission while again you have no heavy equipment to lose. Doesn't pay all that well but can make a profit. However it doesn't actually define success, which for a success only ticket is kind of rough. What percentage of breakage are you allowed among the ruling Junta? What Percentage of breakage among the family members? (Yes it is the Referee's job to make that determination.) Does success mean you don't lose any of them? (And what does that say about the success value of the complementary ticket in 76 Patrons?) The Platoon attacking the convoy gets paid 3 times the Company that is tasked to protect it.
"The Dream Ticket" isn't even close to covering probable expenditures. It looks good at first glance, after all MCr30 in equipment up front, looks impressive. However this is a ticket for a "Heavily Reinforced Mechanized Battalion." With organic Armor, Air, Commando, and Artillery support which is on point for the heavily outnumbered local army.
MCr30 is what, 2-3 tanks, a pair of fighters? A Mech Infantry Battalion, is at least 30 APCs. Cheap (And if you are actually expecting to take fire in them, buy cheap, get cheap) TL9-10 APC's run more MCr1+ each. This ticket calls for 60+ Armored vehicles just to accept it.
Writing off 4 tanks is the entire ticket amount. Failing to act aggressively, scattered across the battlefield and putting your tanks in harms way means that the indigenous army will get overwhelmed and your side loses. Did I mention that it was Success Only? You see potential for huge profit, I see more potential for significant losses well in excess of the paycheck, and I don't see the Ticket covering the probable expenses of the unit even if their side wins.
Further a Mech BN of this nature is a specialized unit that really can only operate on nice hospitable worlds. So even if you make a profit on this ticket, then what? You certainly can't make a profit recruiting, training and equipping this unit then disbanding it. (Providing you actually have time to build, equip and train the unit before the war is scheduled to start.)
All of the tickets in Book 4 are capable of generating a profit; in some cases, a substantial profit. Whether they actually do or not is largely in the hands of the referee.
The ticket as originally presented in Adventure 7 is potentially profitable. The situation on the ground presents the players with new challenges but also provides new opportunities. Given that the opposition is substantially different from what was indicated in the original contract, re-negotiation would seem a likely option. The Escort scenario, in particular, is arguably outside the scope of the original contract and could be negotiated as a separate ticket. These factors require interaction between the players and the referee.
Patron financing, client support in equipment, logistics and transportation, the size and nature of the opposition are major factors in determining the success and/or profitability of any given ticket. These fall within the responsibility of the referee.
If you're running a mercenary campaign, you need to craft tickets to suit the size and equipment of the unit in play and the style of game desired. Overall profit from a series of tickets is more important than a straight formula because it allows you to maintain control over the unit. The Ticket in Adventure 7 has the most potential for profit. Yet as originally written, is the only canon ticket that pays that well. Further it has serious potential for loss. If the cutters are deployed in support of the unit, then damage to one of them, given the actual vs. perceived threat, is clearly possible, will quickly run the ticket well into the loss column.
Using the Broadsword in Naval combat, is definitely not covered in the ticket, and could run the entire ticket so far into the loss column that the unit could never recover. (Just a couple of points of damage to the powerplant, loss of a couple of laser turrets and you are losing more than twice what the ticket pays.)
LBB4 tickets, have potential for profit. (I never said they didn't.) However looking at the company tickets. The commando company has the best potential for serious profit. (Especially since it is a light force where the Patron is supplying transport in, which implies little to no vehicles.) However attacking an Air Cav Company, with a Company, then holding the ground with light forces against the balance of the Air Cav Battalion and counter attacks from Mechanized forces in Battalion Strength means that a light force is unlikely to survive to spend the money. (Especially without Artillery or Air Support.) The backers would be happy though, less people to pay.
In a light commando company the only real assets that the unit has is the people and you will lose lots of them. (It feels like Operation Market Garden and the opposition in that mission couldn't mount this kind of strength to retake the bridges.)
This ticket is actually likely to pay no more than the ticket in Adventure 7 and that is for a Platoon.
The Security Mission while again you have no heavy equipment to lose. Doesn't pay all that well but can make a profit. However it doesn't actually define success, which for a success only ticket is kind of rough. What percentage of breakage are you allowed among the ruling Junta? What Percentage of breakage among the family members? (Yes it is the Referee's job to make that determination.) Does success mean you don't lose any of them? (And what does that say about the success value of the complementary ticket in 76 Patrons?) The Platoon attacking the convoy gets paid 3 times the Company that is tasked to protect it.
"The Dream Ticket" isn't even close to covering probable expenditures. It looks good at first glance, after all MCr30 in equipment up front, looks impressive. However this is a ticket for a "Heavily Reinforced Mechanized Battalion." With organic Armor, Air, Commando, and Artillery support which is on point for the heavily outnumbered local army.
MCr30 is what, 2-3 tanks, a pair of fighters? A Mech Infantry Battalion, is at least 30 APCs. Cheap (And if you are actually expecting to take fire in them, buy cheap, get cheap) TL9-10 APC's run more MCr1+ each. This ticket calls for 60+ Armored vehicles just to accept it.
Writing off 4 tanks is the entire ticket amount. Failing to act aggressively, scattered across the battlefield and putting your tanks in harms way means that the indigenous army will get overwhelmed and your side loses. Did I mention that it was Success Only? You see potential for huge profit, I see more potential for significant losses well in excess of the paycheck, and I don't see the Ticket covering the probable expenses of the unit even if their side wins.
Further a Mech BN of this nature is a specialized unit that really can only operate on nice hospitable worlds. So even if you make a profit on this ticket, then what? You certainly can't make a profit recruiting, training and equipping this unit then disbanding it. (Providing you actually have time to build, equip and train the unit before the war is scheduled to start.)
Piper
December 7th, 2006, 09:54 AM
The referee bears the responsibility for determining the level of opposition and client support. For the sake of brevity, I'll use one example with the understanding that the same process can be applied to any ticket.
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
LBB4 tickets, have potential for profit. (I never said they didn't.) However looking at the company tickets. The commando company has the best potential for serious profit. (Especially since it is a light force where the Patron is supplying transport in, which implies little to no vehicles.) However attacking an Air Cav Company, with a Company, then holding the ground with light forces against the balance of the Air Cav Battalion and counter attacks from Mechanized forces in Battalion Strength means that a light force is unlikely to survive to spend the money. Here's a different set of assumptions:
The camp is to be seized by an airmobile coup-de-main. The client is willing to provide a number of air/rafts, several of which are armed with autocannons and tac missiles. A point defense sled mounting a VRF Gauss gun is provided for artillery defense. The 10% bonus for returned equipment applies to these so the potential for additional profit is not insignificant.
The bulk of the defending air cavalry battalion will be cut off by the striker incursion and is not expected to be a factor.
The most likely force for the mechanized counter-attack is a battalion of "People's Revolutionary Guards". The officer corp of this unit was heavily purged after the coup, and the new officers were selected for loyalty to the coup rather than tactical ability. The intelligence assessment indicates that morale is low and as much as 20 to 25% of their vehicles may be deadlined due to shoddy maintenance.
The majority of their vehicles are BTR-60 style wheeled APC's. One company is equipped with more modern IFV's.
The approaches to the camp are heavily wooded and steep. Only two roads access the camp. One crosses a ravine over a bridge which can be destroyed. The other road passes through several gorges and switchbacks allowing numerous places for anti-armor ambush.
The client has provided demolitions equipment (also available in bulk at the mining camp) and a number of TL10 mines which are difficult to detect. The counter-attacking battalion has only limited engineering support.
Where you see Arnhem, someone else can see Pegasus bridge.
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
LBB4 tickets, have potential for profit. (I never said they didn't.) However looking at the company tickets. The commando company has the best potential for serious profit. (Especially since it is a light force where the Patron is supplying transport in, which implies little to no vehicles.) However attacking an Air Cav Company, with a Company, then holding the ground with light forces against the balance of the Air Cav Battalion and counter attacks from Mechanized forces in Battalion Strength means that a light force is unlikely to survive to spend the money. Here's a different set of assumptions:
The camp is to be seized by an airmobile coup-de-main. The client is willing to provide a number of air/rafts, several of which are armed with autocannons and tac missiles. A point defense sled mounting a VRF Gauss gun is provided for artillery defense. The 10% bonus for returned equipment applies to these so the potential for additional profit is not insignificant.
The bulk of the defending air cavalry battalion will be cut off by the striker incursion and is not expected to be a factor.
The most likely force for the mechanized counter-attack is a battalion of "People's Revolutionary Guards". The officer corp of this unit was heavily purged after the coup, and the new officers were selected for loyalty to the coup rather than tactical ability. The intelligence assessment indicates that morale is low and as much as 20 to 25% of their vehicles may be deadlined due to shoddy maintenance.
The majority of their vehicles are BTR-60 style wheeled APC's. One company is equipped with more modern IFV's.
The approaches to the camp are heavily wooded and steep. Only two roads access the camp. One crosses a ravine over a bridge which can be destroyed. The other road passes through several gorges and switchbacks allowing numerous places for anti-armor ambush.
The client has provided demolitions equipment (also available in bulk at the mining camp) and a number of TL10 mines which are difficult to detect. The counter-attacking battalion has only limited engineering support.
Where you see Arnhem, someone else can see Pegasus bridge.
BetterThanLife
December 7th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Piper,
An interesting set of assumptions. (Though not as described in the ticket.) And like I said of the LBB4 tickets, that one has the most potential for a reasonable rate of return. (Of course using a light Company to hold a position against Battalion Level Mechanized Counter Attacks (Which doesn't sound like one Battalion attacking a platoon or a company at a time.) I can see someone claiming that the Air Cav Battalion that is supposedly based there is grounded because of Local Air Superiority, but even that is a bit far fetched. They will want their base of operations back, though they are likely to straggle in. (And since they know the terrain, they are at least as dangerous as getting counterattacked by Mech Battalions. It could be done but like the Battle of Serenity Valley, or Arhnem there won't be lots of people walking out afterwards.
The only other one with real potential for making a decent profit is the Battalion striker Mission. But that would depend on the level of armor support the Battalion is going to field. (And MCr30 is only 2-3 tanks.)
The Dream Ticket is nothing of the sort. And the Escort Mission is is poorly defined and low pay for a comoany that if they lose one member of the government, the Patron might decide to declare the mission a failure.
An interesting set of assumptions. (Though not as described in the ticket.) And like I said of the LBB4 tickets, that one has the most potential for a reasonable rate of return. (Of course using a light Company to hold a position against Battalion Level Mechanized Counter Attacks (Which doesn't sound like one Battalion attacking a platoon or a company at a time.) I can see someone claiming that the Air Cav Battalion that is supposedly based there is grounded because of Local Air Superiority, but even that is a bit far fetched. They will want their base of operations back, though they are likely to straggle in. (And since they know the terrain, they are at least as dangerous as getting counterattacked by Mech Battalions. It could be done but like the Battle of Serenity Valley, or Arhnem there won't be lots of people walking out afterwards.
The only other one with real potential for making a decent profit is the Battalion striker Mission. But that would depend on the level of armor support the Battalion is going to field. (And MCr30 is only 2-3 tanks.)
The Dream Ticket is nothing of the sort. And the Escort Mission is is poorly defined and low pay for a comoany that if they lose one member of the government, the Patron might decide to declare the mission a failure.
BetterThanLife
December 7th, 2006, 05:41 PM
The next thing to consider is how prevalent are Mercenary Tickets? How often are tickets available in a given region. Which would help determine whether using a Jump-1 or 2 ship would be a good choice.
My formula has the maintenance and replacement costs for equipment a bit on the low side. But I also figure that they won't be in combat more than 1 week out of 3 on average. Everyone still needs to get paid in between missions. smile.gif
My formula has the maintenance and replacement costs for equipment a bit on the low side. But I also figure that they won't be in combat more than 1 week out of 3 on average. Everyone still needs to get paid in between missions. smile.gif
sid6.7
December 7th, 2006, 06:10 PM
well for the sake of game play and not going
overboard on the realism thing i'd say in
a sub-sector you could expect 2-3 choices if
your players dont take one, make it hurt. if
your an industrious GM..make 1 per planet....
in the real world?
training and escort missions probably
list in the 1000's on our earth...
police,war or special op's probably list in
the dozens to 100's on our planet...
overboard on the realism thing i'd say in
a sub-sector you could expect 2-3 choices if
your players dont take one, make it hurt. if
your an industrious GM..make 1 per planet....
in the real world?
training and escort missions probably
list in the 1000's on our earth...
police,war or special op's probably list in
the dozens to 100's on our planet...
Piper
December 7th, 2006, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
An interesting set of assumptions. (Though not as described in the ticket.)None of these contradict any information supplied in the ticket.
Of course using a light Company to hold a position against Battalion Level Mechanized Counter Attacks (Which doesn't sound like one Battalion attacking a platoon or a company at a time...Actually, that is exactly what will happen if you use the abstract combat system. If you use a detailed combat system, the referee determines the effect of terrain and controls the tactics of the opposing force.
I can see someone claiming that the Air Cav Battalion that is supposedly based there is grounded because of Local Air Superiority, but even that is a bit far fetched. They will want their base of operations back, though they are likely to straggle in.The remnants of the air cav battalion are engaged elsewhere and not mentioned as part of the opposing force. You are, of course, free to add any units you wish.
The only other one with real potential for making a decent profit is the Battalion striker Mission.Any of the tickets in Book 4 (including the Dream ticket) are capable of generating a profit. "Decent" is a subjective term.
All of the published tickets are sketchy. They're frameworks requiring input and decision from the referee. Any ticket can be interpreted in such a way as to virtually guarantee the destruction of a player's unit. Equally, they can be crafted to provide interesting and challenging situations.
I suppose it all depends on whether you consider a referee to be a facilitator or an adversary.
To borrow a phrase from Bill Cameron: "Have fun." graemlins/omega.gif
An interesting set of assumptions. (Though not as described in the ticket.)None of these contradict any information supplied in the ticket.
Of course using a light Company to hold a position against Battalion Level Mechanized Counter Attacks (Which doesn't sound like one Battalion attacking a platoon or a company at a time...Actually, that is exactly what will happen if you use the abstract combat system. If you use a detailed combat system, the referee determines the effect of terrain and controls the tactics of the opposing force.
I can see someone claiming that the Air Cav Battalion that is supposedly based there is grounded because of Local Air Superiority, but even that is a bit far fetched. They will want their base of operations back, though they are likely to straggle in.The remnants of the air cav battalion are engaged elsewhere and not mentioned as part of the opposing force. You are, of course, free to add any units you wish.
The only other one with real potential for making a decent profit is the Battalion striker Mission.Any of the tickets in Book 4 (including the Dream ticket) are capable of generating a profit. "Decent" is a subjective term.
All of the published tickets are sketchy. They're frameworks requiring input and decision from the referee. Any ticket can be interpreted in such a way as to virtually guarantee the destruction of a player's unit. Equally, they can be crafted to provide interesting and challenging situations.
I suppose it all depends on whether you consider a referee to be a facilitator or an adversary.
To borrow a phrase from Bill Cameron: "Have fun." graemlins/omega.gif
Whipsnade
December 7th, 2006, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Well Bill, Except for one minor little detail. It doesn't really matter who is funding the Mercenary Unit. In general a wealthy backer is required up front, one way or another, however wealthy people or Corporations, are not going to get into this without an expectation of Profit.Bruce,
Very true, but not exactly what I was trying to put across. Blame on my poor prose skills.
I put the word 'owned' in quotes for a reason. I didn't mean to suggest that each merc outfit was a just subsidiary of some corporation, an entity wholly owned by some fabulously wealthy individual, or part of some planetary/national government. I wanted to suggest that the majority had been 'helped' or 'assisted' in various fashions by various parties, that a 'string' was in place.
Are you familiar with the old Roman system of patronage? I'm suggesting something like that. You do favors for your 'betters' and they do favors for you. In fact, Roman VIPs looked around for more favors to dispense so they'd have more favors to call in.
The 'favors' being given merc units can run the gamut; help with transport there, equipment cheap or off the books here, blind eyes toward recruiting, fall back jobs, outright loans, the list is endless. The types of favors given in return are just as myriad. A unit may turn down contracts from certain parties, only operate within certain regions, give a patron 'right of first refusal' for a hiring period, all sorts of things. Again, the list is extensive.
Let me take Al Morai as an example. Their shipping line works across the entire Marches, they have offices on dozens of worlds, they even own the planet Shirene outright. It's natural that they'd have full time security forces at various installations. Merc units would be nice force multipliers for them, assets they could call on when and if they were needed. Al Morai wouldn't actually own any of the units, but they'd have a 'string' on them.
Patrons can come and go too. Someone may patronize a unit one month then a different one another month as their needs and situation change.
A district manager would do favors for a few units in his region; help them with shipping, arrange contacts with suppliers, let it be known Al Morai considers them a good risk, maybe loan them a little cash now and then. In return for this patronage, Al Morai could count on having those units around if anything got ticklish. Just how quickly each unit could help and how much it would cost Al Morai would depend on the relationship, but Al Morai would have some sort of influence with the unit. After all, that's why they extended their patronage in the first place.
IMTU the larger a merc unit's permanent size and the more specialized/expensive euipment it fields, the better the chance it has plenty of 'strings' leading to a patron. The economics simply demand it.
A company of riflemen with mortars? IMTU it could very well be independent. However, I'd doubt it would stay at company size between tickets because of the bills involved. If it does stay that large while looking for another job, some patron is making the payroll in return for the company's leader future consideration. Throw in artillery, vehicles, crew-served weapons, and all the rest and it's dead certain IMTU that someone is helping with the bills.
All this is just the solution I came up with for a merc campaign IMTU. Whether it works in anyone else's I don't know.
Have fun,
Bill
Well Bill, Except for one minor little detail. It doesn't really matter who is funding the Mercenary Unit. In general a wealthy backer is required up front, one way or another, however wealthy people or Corporations, are not going to get into this without an expectation of Profit.Bruce,
Very true, but not exactly what I was trying to put across. Blame on my poor prose skills.
I put the word 'owned' in quotes for a reason. I didn't mean to suggest that each merc outfit was a just subsidiary of some corporation, an entity wholly owned by some fabulously wealthy individual, or part of some planetary/national government. I wanted to suggest that the majority had been 'helped' or 'assisted' in various fashions by various parties, that a 'string' was in place.
Are you familiar with the old Roman system of patronage? I'm suggesting something like that. You do favors for your 'betters' and they do favors for you. In fact, Roman VIPs looked around for more favors to dispense so they'd have more favors to call in.
The 'favors' being given merc units can run the gamut; help with transport there, equipment cheap or off the books here, blind eyes toward recruiting, fall back jobs, outright loans, the list is endless. The types of favors given in return are just as myriad. A unit may turn down contracts from certain parties, only operate within certain regions, give a patron 'right of first refusal' for a hiring period, all sorts of things. Again, the list is extensive.
Let me take Al Morai as an example. Their shipping line works across the entire Marches, they have offices on dozens of worlds, they even own the planet Shirene outright. It's natural that they'd have full time security forces at various installations. Merc units would be nice force multipliers for them, assets they could call on when and if they were needed. Al Morai wouldn't actually own any of the units, but they'd have a 'string' on them.
Patrons can come and go too. Someone may patronize a unit one month then a different one another month as their needs and situation change.
A district manager would do favors for a few units in his region; help them with shipping, arrange contacts with suppliers, let it be known Al Morai considers them a good risk, maybe loan them a little cash now and then. In return for this patronage, Al Morai could count on having those units around if anything got ticklish. Just how quickly each unit could help and how much it would cost Al Morai would depend on the relationship, but Al Morai would have some sort of influence with the unit. After all, that's why they extended their patronage in the first place.
IMTU the larger a merc unit's permanent size and the more specialized/expensive euipment it fields, the better the chance it has plenty of 'strings' leading to a patron. The economics simply demand it.
A company of riflemen with mortars? IMTU it could very well be independent. However, I'd doubt it would stay at company size between tickets because of the bills involved. If it does stay that large while looking for another job, some patron is making the payroll in return for the company's leader future consideration. Throw in artillery, vehicles, crew-served weapons, and all the rest and it's dead certain IMTU that someone is helping with the bills.
All this is just the solution I came up with for a merc campaign IMTU. Whether it works in anyone else's I don't know.
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 7th, 2006, 10:34 PM
Bill,
I am not saying it isn't part of the equation. And yes you might get something in return for a "Get out of Hell" card. Some units will have a patron, others will have several backers, and a rare unit will be self funded. Regardless of who is paying the bills, they are going to want to see a profit. So we are still dealing with a profit margin and unit expenses. But a "Get out of Hell" card isn't going to get you full time logistic support.
However there still needs to be a bottom line. While it might not apply to every unit, there has to be a general trend. A normal way things work. The money has to flow correctly most of the time.
As for combat units downsizing between assignments, that is one possibility, but it would depend on resources available at the target, or where the Unit is before it gets the assignment. It will also depend on the amount of time between when the unit gets notice and when the balloon actually goes up. The less time between when the assignment is available and when the unit is available makes the unit more marketable.
A unit that stays together and is well trained is going to be more marketable than a handful of guys and some local talent. (Unless that handful of guys has a hell of a reputation.) The exception, of course being units that specialize in Cadre missions.
Further like military units, Mercenary units will specialize. A Unit is unlikely to perform a Cadre Mission one month, a Mechanized Striker Mission another month, a Commando Mission a third and a Security Mission a different month. Two of them possibly, three of them rarely, but not all four types.
I have been giving it some more thought. I think the ticket could generally be a dollar amount plus ammunition and other minor expendable supplies.
I am not saying it isn't part of the equation. And yes you might get something in return for a "Get out of Hell" card. Some units will have a patron, others will have several backers, and a rare unit will be self funded. Regardless of who is paying the bills, they are going to want to see a profit. So we are still dealing with a profit margin and unit expenses. But a "Get out of Hell" card isn't going to get you full time logistic support.
However there still needs to be a bottom line. While it might not apply to every unit, there has to be a general trend. A normal way things work. The money has to flow correctly most of the time.
As for combat units downsizing between assignments, that is one possibility, but it would depend on resources available at the target, or where the Unit is before it gets the assignment. It will also depend on the amount of time between when the unit gets notice and when the balloon actually goes up. The less time between when the assignment is available and when the unit is available makes the unit more marketable.
A unit that stays together and is well trained is going to be more marketable than a handful of guys and some local talent. (Unless that handful of guys has a hell of a reputation.) The exception, of course being units that specialize in Cadre missions.
Further like military units, Mercenary units will specialize. A Unit is unlikely to perform a Cadre Mission one month, a Mechanized Striker Mission another month, a Commando Mission a third and a Security Mission a different month. Two of them possibly, three of them rarely, but not all four types.
I have been giving it some more thought. I think the ticket could generally be a dollar amount plus ammunition and other minor expendable supplies.
sid6.7
December 7th, 2006, 11:02 PM
while were speaking of mercs, i think
executive oportunities(EO)"defunct"
actually was a do all be all merc group
per traveller standards.
some other famous mercs?
french foreign legion
spanish foreign legion
papal swiss guards
Gurkha Security Guards
Erinys International
Blackwater USA
hehehhhee blackwater has a gift shop... graemlins/file_21.gif
executive oportunities(EO)"defunct"
actually was a do all be all merc group
per traveller standards.
some other famous mercs?
french foreign legion
spanish foreign legion
papal swiss guards
Gurkha Security Guards
Erinys International
Blackwater USA
hehehhhee blackwater has a gift shop... graemlins/file_21.gif
Whipsnade
December 8th, 2006, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
And yes you might get something in return for a "Get out of Hell" card. Some units will have a patron, others will have several backers, and a rare unit will be self funded. Regardless of who is paying the bills, they are going to want to see a profit. So we are still dealing with a profit margin and unit expenses. But a "Get out of Hell" card isn't going to get you full time logistic support.Bruce,
I'm still not explaining it very well. Patrons, well most patrons, don't provide a 'Get out of hell' card. The 're-pat' card from LBB:4 and Across the Bright Face seems to be issued by the banking organization handling the monetary aspects of each ticket. It's also true that the actual owners and operators of a unit are going to want to make a profit, no matter how many of their troopers are there just because killing people is the only saleable skill they have.
I'm suggesting that units usually have a patron or patrons; entities that give a little assistance now and then for future considerations. The patrons are there to help the unit over the rough spots. Patrons come and go too.
Need help with the quarterly payroll between tickets? In steps a patron with the money for a future 'favor'. That favor may be that you won't hire on with the Star-Bellied Sneetchs of Arglebargle-IX for the next six months if they ask you. Or that you will hire on with the Sneetchs. Or that you won't hire out more than two months travel time from Arglebargle-IX. Or a hundred other things.
However there still needs to be a bottom line.Of course, and trading favors helps a unit meet that bottom line during those rough spots. So does drawing down the permanent force into a sort of a 'super cadre' level manning. When you have the ticket in hand, you can round out your formations because you can promise to pay.
The less time between when the assignment is available and when the unit is available makes the unit more marketable. [A unit that stays together and is well trained is going to be more marketable than a handful of guys and some local talent.You're forgetting about those pesky travel times in Traveller. One week, one way, out to six parsecs. Nothing any faster. No one is going to hire as quickly as you assume unless the unit and the ticket are already in the same system.
If someone waits to hire immediately, they've already lost. It takes over two weeks to bring in any unit from another system and that depends on a lot of 'ifs'; if the message gets out, a unit is there, if the payment is accepted, if the shipping is available, if, if, if, etc.
The speed of interstellar communication in Traveller makes it more likely that - if you think you may need mercs anytime - you'll build relationships with the various mercs groups in your region by acting as a patron to them. That way at least a few of them will come running when you need them. No one on Collace can afford to wait for mercs from Regina, let alone pay their fares across all those parsecs.
A Unit is unlikely to perform a Cadre Mission one month, a Mechanized Striker Mission another month, a Commando Mission a third and a Security Mission a different month. Two of them possibly, three of them rarely, but not all four types.Different missions in different places every month? Hardly. Travel times remember? A unit is unlikely to even travel that often, let alone fight that many different tickets even if they're all the same type.
More likely a unit is already on hand hoping to wrangle a ticket, either tipped off by escalating tensions, news stories, or inside information provided by a patron. It may have even been already hired after a fashion by a patron against future need; i.e. We'll meet your company cadre payroll over the next calendar year if you keep keep at least half your force on Arglebargle-IX and don't hire the remainder out on tickets more than one month's travel time away or We'll ship your unit at cost along our routes during the next six months if you let us vet all your tickets during that period.
You're absolutely correct in focussing on the economic aspects of the merc trade. Given personnel costs, equipment costs, shipping costs, and travel/communication time, IMTU the only way any but the smallest merc units can keep their books balanced is to build patron-client relations with a number of parties. And the only way those who may need mercs can ensure units will be there when they are needed is to build patron-client relations with a number of merc units.
No one is hiring anyone, no one owns anyone. Everyone is just trading favors.
Have fun,
Bill
And yes you might get something in return for a "Get out of Hell" card. Some units will have a patron, others will have several backers, and a rare unit will be self funded. Regardless of who is paying the bills, they are going to want to see a profit. So we are still dealing with a profit margin and unit expenses. But a "Get out of Hell" card isn't going to get you full time logistic support.Bruce,
I'm still not explaining it very well. Patrons, well most patrons, don't provide a 'Get out of hell' card. The 're-pat' card from LBB:4 and Across the Bright Face seems to be issued by the banking organization handling the monetary aspects of each ticket. It's also true that the actual owners and operators of a unit are going to want to make a profit, no matter how many of their troopers are there just because killing people is the only saleable skill they have.
I'm suggesting that units usually have a patron or patrons; entities that give a little assistance now and then for future considerations. The patrons are there to help the unit over the rough spots. Patrons come and go too.
Need help with the quarterly payroll between tickets? In steps a patron with the money for a future 'favor'. That favor may be that you won't hire on with the Star-Bellied Sneetchs of Arglebargle-IX for the next six months if they ask you. Or that you will hire on with the Sneetchs. Or that you won't hire out more than two months travel time from Arglebargle-IX. Or a hundred other things.
However there still needs to be a bottom line.Of course, and trading favors helps a unit meet that bottom line during those rough spots. So does drawing down the permanent force into a sort of a 'super cadre' level manning. When you have the ticket in hand, you can round out your formations because you can promise to pay.
The less time between when the assignment is available and when the unit is available makes the unit more marketable. [A unit that stays together and is well trained is going to be more marketable than a handful of guys and some local talent.You're forgetting about those pesky travel times in Traveller. One week, one way, out to six parsecs. Nothing any faster. No one is going to hire as quickly as you assume unless the unit and the ticket are already in the same system.
If someone waits to hire immediately, they've already lost. It takes over two weeks to bring in any unit from another system and that depends on a lot of 'ifs'; if the message gets out, a unit is there, if the payment is accepted, if the shipping is available, if, if, if, etc.
The speed of interstellar communication in Traveller makes it more likely that - if you think you may need mercs anytime - you'll build relationships with the various mercs groups in your region by acting as a patron to them. That way at least a few of them will come running when you need them. No one on Collace can afford to wait for mercs from Regina, let alone pay their fares across all those parsecs.
A Unit is unlikely to perform a Cadre Mission one month, a Mechanized Striker Mission another month, a Commando Mission a third and a Security Mission a different month. Two of them possibly, three of them rarely, but not all four types.Different missions in different places every month? Hardly. Travel times remember? A unit is unlikely to even travel that often, let alone fight that many different tickets even if they're all the same type.
More likely a unit is already on hand hoping to wrangle a ticket, either tipped off by escalating tensions, news stories, or inside information provided by a patron. It may have even been already hired after a fashion by a patron against future need; i.e. We'll meet your company cadre payroll over the next calendar year if you keep keep at least half your force on Arglebargle-IX and don't hire the remainder out on tickets more than one month's travel time away or We'll ship your unit at cost along our routes during the next six months if you let us vet all your tickets during that period.
You're absolutely correct in focussing on the economic aspects of the merc trade. Given personnel costs, equipment costs, shipping costs, and travel/communication time, IMTU the only way any but the smallest merc units can keep their books balanced is to build patron-client relations with a number of parties. And the only way those who may need mercs can ensure units will be there when they are needed is to build patron-client relations with a number of merc units.
No one is hiring anyone, no one owns anyone. Everyone is just trading favors.
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 8th, 2006, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
And yes you might get something in return for a "Get out of Hell" card. Some units will have a patron, others will have several backers, and a rare unit will be self funded. Regardless of who is paying the bills, they are going to want to see a profit. So we are still dealing with a profit margin and unit expenses. But a "Get out of Hell" card isn't going to get you full time logistic support.Bruce,
I'm still not explaining it very well. Patrons, well most patrons, don't provide a 'Get out of hell' card. The 're-pat' card from LBB:4 and Across the Bright Face seems to be issued by the banking organization handling the monetary aspects of each ticket. It's also true that the actual owners and operators of a unit are going to want to make a profit, no matter how many of their troopers are there just because killing people is the only saleable skill they have.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually I was suggesting that the patron do something for the unit for a "Get out of Hell" card, not the other way around. It was a line taken from an abysmal television show. (One of the very few good ones.) It is the future consideration provided by the unit.
I'm suggesting that units usually have a patron or patrons; entities that give a little assistance now and then for future considerations. The patrons are there to help the unit over the rough spots. Patrons come and go too.
Need help with the quarterly payroll between tickets? In steps a patron with the money for a future 'favor'. That favor may be that you won't hire on with the Star-Bellied Sneetchs of Arglebargle-IX for the next six months if they ask you. Or that you will hire on with the Sneetchs. Or that you won't hire out more than two months travel time from Arglebargle-IX. Or a hundred other things.I get that, it is a decent adventure hook, or something to bail out the Unit if things go South through no fault of the Players. But that is more of a one time thing. It is also a little Deus Ex Machina for use on a regular basis. The unit and the tickets have to be generally profitable for the system to work overall. Like Starship finance, Starships have to be generally profitable and able to make payments, for a bank to authorize a loan. Similarily, Mercenary Units have to be generally profitable, to attract backers.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />However there still needs to be a bottom line.Of course, and trading favors helps a unit meet that bottom line during those rough spots. So does drawing down the permanent force into a sort of a 'super cadre' level manning. When you have the ticket in hand, you can round out your formations because you can promise to pay.
The less time between when the assignment is available and when the unit is available makes the unit more marketable. [A unit that stays together and is well trained is going to be more marketable than a handful of guys and some local talent.You're forgetting about those pesky travel times in Traveller. One week, one way, out to six parsecs. Nothing any faster. No one is going to hire as quickly as you assume unless the unit and the ticket are already in the same system.</font>[/QUOTE]This is true. Mercenary Units have to be located, negotiations have to be concluded, etc. The issue with not having the unit together is you are adding 4-6 weeks to the travel time to equip, train and integrate new troops. Not saying you aren't going to be doing that on a regular basis, even during a ticket to gain replacements of combat losses, but to start with a core of about 50 guys and take a ticket requiring a company of 150, is going to take time. Even in Football you don't throw a rookie into the game without weeks of training to make sure that he knows on 1 he blocks the guy on the left and on 2 he blocks the guy on his right.
If someone waits to hire immediately, they've already lost. It takes over two weeks to bring in any unit from another system and that depends on a lot of 'ifs'; if the message gets out, a unit is there, if the payment is accepted, if the shipping is available, if, if, if, etc.
The speed of interstellar communication in Traveller makes it more likely that - if you think you may need mercs anytime - you'll build relationships with the various mercs groups in your region by acting as a patron to them. That way at least a few of them will come running when you need them. No one on Collace can afford to wait for mercs from Regina, let alone pay their fares across all those parsecs.Absolutely. And the shorter the unit can keep that turn around time the more marketable it is. Obviously most units will operate within a SubSector. Not go from Regina to Collace. It also means that units with their own transport will be more marketable than units that rely on outside transportation. Further need for Mercenaries is something that some worlds might plan on or have full time. (The French Foreign Legion or the Swiss Guards at the Vatican are two such examples.) But most of the Published tickets are not of that nature. In fact most of the published canon tickets are short fuse tickets.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A Unit is unlikely to perform a Cadre Mission one month, a Mechanized Striker Mission another month, a Commando Mission a third and a Security Mission a different month. Two of them possibly, three of them rarely, but not all four types.Different missions in different places every month? Hardly. Travel times remember? A unit is unlikely to even travel that often, let alone fight that many different tickets even if they're all the same type.</font>[/QUOTE]I was apparently not clear. That could be over the course of time (Figure a year or two.) not consecutive months. (Unless each of those tickets was only around a couple of days duration.) The point wasn't consecutive tickets. The point was supposed to be that a unit will likely specialize so that they mostly took Commando Tickets, or they mostly took Striker Tickets. Not take one ticket as a Striker Unit and the next ticket as a Commando Unit.
More likely a unit is already on hand hoping to wrangle a ticket, either tipped off by escalating tensions, news stories, or inside information provided by a patron. It may have even been already hired after a fashion by a patron against future need; i.e. We'll meet your company cadre payroll over the next calendar year if you keep keep at least half your force on Arglebargle-IX and don't hire the remainder out on tickets more than one month's travel time away or We'll ship your unit at cost along our routes during the next six months if you let us vet all your tickets during that period.
You're absolutely correct in focussing on the economic aspects of the merc trade. Given personnel costs, equipment costs, shipping costs, and travel/communication time, IMTU the only way any but the smallest merc units can keep their books balanced is to build patron-client relations with a number of parties. And the only way those who may need mercs can ensure units will be there when they are needed is to build patron-client relations with a number of merc units.But that doesn't overall help the bottom line. A little here, a little there sure but remember, Mercenary Units are expensive, both in terms of equipment and personnel. They are also high risk investments, after all what other investment do you make in multi-million dollar amounts that both intentionally and literally then gets sent into harms way to get shot at?
No one is hiring anyone, no one owns anyone. Everyone is just trading favors.But the capital has to be there and there has to be a decent return on that capital for the situation to exist in the first place, in order to trade the favors. An MCr13+ light tank is hardly simply a favor.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
And yes you might get something in return for a "Get out of Hell" card. Some units will have a patron, others will have several backers, and a rare unit will be self funded. Regardless of who is paying the bills, they are going to want to see a profit. So we are still dealing with a profit margin and unit expenses. But a "Get out of Hell" card isn't going to get you full time logistic support.Bruce,
I'm still not explaining it very well. Patrons, well most patrons, don't provide a 'Get out of hell' card. The 're-pat' card from LBB:4 and Across the Bright Face seems to be issued by the banking organization handling the monetary aspects of each ticket. It's also true that the actual owners and operators of a unit are going to want to make a profit, no matter how many of their troopers are there just because killing people is the only saleable skill they have.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually I was suggesting that the patron do something for the unit for a "Get out of Hell" card, not the other way around. It was a line taken from an abysmal television show. (One of the very few good ones.) It is the future consideration provided by the unit.
I'm suggesting that units usually have a patron or patrons; entities that give a little assistance now and then for future considerations. The patrons are there to help the unit over the rough spots. Patrons come and go too.
Need help with the quarterly payroll between tickets? In steps a patron with the money for a future 'favor'. That favor may be that you won't hire on with the Star-Bellied Sneetchs of Arglebargle-IX for the next six months if they ask you. Or that you will hire on with the Sneetchs. Or that you won't hire out more than two months travel time from Arglebargle-IX. Or a hundred other things.I get that, it is a decent adventure hook, or something to bail out the Unit if things go South through no fault of the Players. But that is more of a one time thing. It is also a little Deus Ex Machina for use on a regular basis. The unit and the tickets have to be generally profitable for the system to work overall. Like Starship finance, Starships have to be generally profitable and able to make payments, for a bank to authorize a loan. Similarily, Mercenary Units have to be generally profitable, to attract backers.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />However there still needs to be a bottom line.Of course, and trading favors helps a unit meet that bottom line during those rough spots. So does drawing down the permanent force into a sort of a 'super cadre' level manning. When you have the ticket in hand, you can round out your formations because you can promise to pay.
The less time between when the assignment is available and when the unit is available makes the unit more marketable. [A unit that stays together and is well trained is going to be more marketable than a handful of guys and some local talent.You're forgetting about those pesky travel times in Traveller. One week, one way, out to six parsecs. Nothing any faster. No one is going to hire as quickly as you assume unless the unit and the ticket are already in the same system.</font>[/QUOTE]This is true. Mercenary Units have to be located, negotiations have to be concluded, etc. The issue with not having the unit together is you are adding 4-6 weeks to the travel time to equip, train and integrate new troops. Not saying you aren't going to be doing that on a regular basis, even during a ticket to gain replacements of combat losses, but to start with a core of about 50 guys and take a ticket requiring a company of 150, is going to take time. Even in Football you don't throw a rookie into the game without weeks of training to make sure that he knows on 1 he blocks the guy on the left and on 2 he blocks the guy on his right.
If someone waits to hire immediately, they've already lost. It takes over two weeks to bring in any unit from another system and that depends on a lot of 'ifs'; if the message gets out, a unit is there, if the payment is accepted, if the shipping is available, if, if, if, etc.
The speed of interstellar communication in Traveller makes it more likely that - if you think you may need mercs anytime - you'll build relationships with the various mercs groups in your region by acting as a patron to them. That way at least a few of them will come running when you need them. No one on Collace can afford to wait for mercs from Regina, let alone pay their fares across all those parsecs.Absolutely. And the shorter the unit can keep that turn around time the more marketable it is. Obviously most units will operate within a SubSector. Not go from Regina to Collace. It also means that units with their own transport will be more marketable than units that rely on outside transportation. Further need for Mercenaries is something that some worlds might plan on or have full time. (The French Foreign Legion or the Swiss Guards at the Vatican are two such examples.) But most of the Published tickets are not of that nature. In fact most of the published canon tickets are short fuse tickets.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />A Unit is unlikely to perform a Cadre Mission one month, a Mechanized Striker Mission another month, a Commando Mission a third and a Security Mission a different month. Two of them possibly, three of them rarely, but not all four types.Different missions in different places every month? Hardly. Travel times remember? A unit is unlikely to even travel that often, let alone fight that many different tickets even if they're all the same type.</font>[/QUOTE]I was apparently not clear. That could be over the course of time (Figure a year or two.) not consecutive months. (Unless each of those tickets was only around a couple of days duration.) The point wasn't consecutive tickets. The point was supposed to be that a unit will likely specialize so that they mostly took Commando Tickets, or they mostly took Striker Tickets. Not take one ticket as a Striker Unit and the next ticket as a Commando Unit.
More likely a unit is already on hand hoping to wrangle a ticket, either tipped off by escalating tensions, news stories, or inside information provided by a patron. It may have even been already hired after a fashion by a patron against future need; i.e. We'll meet your company cadre payroll over the next calendar year if you keep keep at least half your force on Arglebargle-IX and don't hire the remainder out on tickets more than one month's travel time away or We'll ship your unit at cost along our routes during the next six months if you let us vet all your tickets during that period.
You're absolutely correct in focussing on the economic aspects of the merc trade. Given personnel costs, equipment costs, shipping costs, and travel/communication time, IMTU the only way any but the smallest merc units can keep their books balanced is to build patron-client relations with a number of parties. And the only way those who may need mercs can ensure units will be there when they are needed is to build patron-client relations with a number of merc units.But that doesn't overall help the bottom line. A little here, a little there sure but remember, Mercenary Units are expensive, both in terms of equipment and personnel. They are also high risk investments, after all what other investment do you make in multi-million dollar amounts that both intentionally and literally then gets sent into harms way to get shot at?
No one is hiring anyone, no one owns anyone. Everyone is just trading favors.But the capital has to be there and there has to be a decent return on that capital for the situation to exist in the first place, in order to trade the favors. An MCr13+ light tank is hardly simply a favor.
atpollard
December 8th, 2006, 07:46 AM
The US military has acres and acres of "used" military vehicles gathering sand in the desert and organizations like the CIA have a long history of helping groups of people simply because "THEIR" enemy is "OUR" enemy (Afghanistan rebels/terrorists fighting Soviet occupation comes immediately to mind).
A government could easily provide obsolete Tech vehicles at below market prices or ammunition at reduced fees (or even for free). Rather that injecting CASH into a Merc Unit, a patron could have other ways to reduce the units overhead costs. This would reduce the operating budget and sweeten the tickets just a little.
Obviously, most tickets still need to turn a profit or Merc Units will evaporate. This could just help a newly formed unit get it's first couple tanks or help a unit recover from one ticket that went very bad.
[PATRON: Tough break on that last mission. Maybe I can help. I just happen to know where you can find about 500 APC's protected by nothing but a chain link fence. Nobody would notice or care if 3 or 4 of them just "wandered off". Bring your own liquid hydrogen.]
Just some thoughts on the subject.
A government could easily provide obsolete Tech vehicles at below market prices or ammunition at reduced fees (or even for free). Rather that injecting CASH into a Merc Unit, a patron could have other ways to reduce the units overhead costs. This would reduce the operating budget and sweeten the tickets just a little.
Obviously, most tickets still need to turn a profit or Merc Units will evaporate. This could just help a newly formed unit get it's first couple tanks or help a unit recover from one ticket that went very bad.
[PATRON: Tough break on that last mission. Maybe I can help. I just happen to know where you can find about 500 APC's protected by nothing but a chain link fence. Nobody would notice or care if 3 or 4 of them just "wandered off". Bring your own liquid hydrogen.]
Just some thoughts on the subject.
BetterThanLife
December 8th, 2006, 09:52 AM
atpollard:
Absolutely. Again I have no issue with this but it is small stuff and occasional. Not the basis for Mercenaries in general. That would be like the basis for Merchant Shipping in Traveller, being, giving Starships to people that can make use of them. [Senior Scout Tiberius: (Head of the Detached Duty Office for the Sector.) I need someone to take this package to the next system over. Here is a Surplus Type-S I happen to have lying around, use that.]
While it may be the source of that one ship, it isn't the kind of reason that Starships trade between the stars.
In your example: With the APC's that happen to fall off the back of a Starship, the Patron is likely going to want one as a finder's fee. (And you still owe them a favor.)
Absolutely. Again I have no issue with this but it is small stuff and occasional. Not the basis for Mercenaries in general. That would be like the basis for Merchant Shipping in Traveller, being, giving Starships to people that can make use of them. [Senior Scout Tiberius: (Head of the Detached Duty Office for the Sector.) I need someone to take this package to the next system over. Here is a Surplus Type-S I happen to have lying around, use that.]
While it may be the source of that one ship, it isn't the kind of reason that Starships trade between the stars.
In your example: With the APC's that happen to fall off the back of a Starship, the Patron is likely going to want one as a finder's fee. (And you still owe them a favor.)
BetterThanLife
December 8th, 2006, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
while were speaking of mercs, i think
executive oportunities(EO)"defunct"
actually was a do all be all merc group
per traveller standards.
some other famous mercs?
french foreign legion
spanish foreign legion
papal swiss guards
Gurkha Security Guards
Erinys International
Blackwater USA
hehehhhee blackwater has a gift shop... graemlins/file_21.gif Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif
while were speaking of mercs, i think
executive oportunities(EO)"defunct"
actually was a do all be all merc group
per traveller standards.
some other famous mercs?
french foreign legion
spanish foreign legion
papal swiss guards
Gurkha Security Guards
Erinys International
Blackwater USA
hehehhhee blackwater has a gift shop... graemlins/file_21.gif Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif
atpollard
December 8th, 2006, 10:59 AM
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif Does anyone have a price list from Global Security that we could use as a reference. ;)
atpollard
December 8th, 2006, 11:22 AM
A quick and dirty way to estimate the profitability of a Merc Unit might be to compare unit salary to revenue. I think that the goal for any general business plan is to generate revenues in excess of three times salaries. Do we have any business school graduates out there who can confirm or correct this?
While not perfect, it would provide one quick and easy measure for many of the questions raised. A unit that only "works" 1 week per month (lots of travel between small jobs), needs a much higher paying Ticket (per day) than a unit that has a contract for 6 months of "security" work. The 3:1 ratio would help ballpark the minimum Fee for a ticket.
While not perfect, it would provide one quick and easy measure for many of the questions raised. A unit that only "works" 1 week per month (lots of travel between small jobs), needs a much higher paying Ticket (per day) than a unit that has a contract for 6 months of "security" work. The 3:1 ratio would help ballpark the minimum Fee for a ticket.
BetterThanLife
December 8th, 2006, 11:34 AM
Perhaps we could call then and get an estimate for a Striker Incursion by a Lift Infantry Battalion. smile.gif
sid6.7
December 8th, 2006, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys.
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys.
BetterThanLife
December 8th, 2006, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys. </font>[/QUOTE]The Gurkha Brigade is technically Mercenaries as well, which is why I thought you meant them. smile.gif
And of course in the late 18th century, the British and the Rebels both hired German Mercenaries for that little squable. smile.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys. </font>[/QUOTE]The Gurkha Brigade is technically Mercenaries as well, which is why I thought you meant them. smile.gif
And of course in the late 18th century, the British and the Rebels both hired German Mercenaries for that little squable. smile.gif
Whipsnade
December 8th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Bruce,
We're in about 99.999% agreement it seems.
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Like Starship finance, Starships have to be generally profitable and able to make payments, for a bank to authorize a loan. Similarily, Mercenary Units have to be generally profitable, to attract backers.Are you suggesting that merc units take out bank loans? I retire from the Unified Armies, gather some friends, put together a buisness plan, walk into the First Bank of Mora, and make a presentation to get a loan?
I'd think that merc units get something more akin to venture capital money. Having been on both sides of the venture capital equation for over a year now, I can assure you that the 'certainty of monetary return' you seem to be presuming is a myth.
The issue with not having the unit together is you are adding 4-6 weeks to the travel time to equip, train and integrate new troops.You hire and equip during that travel time. Training is something your hires will already have. Mercs don't run boot camps.
The large, real life, merc outfits that fought in the Biafran conflict arrived as cadre and 'fleshed out' while in-country. The places they travelled through while getting to Nigeria would have been worried about a hundred or so armed troops travelling through at once.
Historically, any large units that stay large between 'tickets' belong to someone who picks up the bills no matter what; FFL and the rest.
It also means that units with their own transport will be more marketable than units that rely on outside transportation.That's the rub, isn't it? This thread is full of cost estimates. Add troops and the costs go up. Add heavy equipment and the costs go up. Ditto vehicles. Ditto ships. Where do you get the start-up money? Banks aren't going to loan it to you. The three Type-R subbies it takes to move that single armor company cost far more than the company does. Why risk them in the merc biz? Why not haul freight?
In fact most of the published canon tickets are short fuse tickets.Sorry, you'll have to prove that. None of the LBB:4 tickets mention any deadline, nothing like Here's the proposed job, can you begin in X days? In fact, most presume a lenghty lead time, the Dream ticket especially. Even A:7 simply begins when Broadsword arrives at Garda-Vilis. Nothing whatsoever is said about when Vilis hired Broadsword.
The point was supposed to be that a unit will likely specialize so that they mostly took Commando Tickets, or they mostly took Striker Tickets. Not take one ticket as a Striker Unit and the next ticket as a Commando Unit.Agreed.
More likely a unit is already on hand hoping to wrangle a ticket, either tipped off by escalating tensions, news stories, or inside information provided by a patron. It may have even been already hired after a fashion by a patron against future need; i.e. We'll meet your company cadre payroll over the next calendar year if you keep keep at least half your force on Arglebargle-IX and don't hire the remainder out on tickets more than one month's travel time away or We'll ship your unit at cost along our routes during the next six months if you let us vet all your tickets during that period.
[quote][qb]But that doesn't overall help the bottom line.So what else does? You're suggesting there are units with lots of personnel and large permanent TO&Es including ships. Where did the start-up costs come from? How does a unit afford all that before and between tickets?
Take the LBB:4 commando mission. The hirer wants a company-sized unit to grab and hold a mine. You're suggesting that they go out and hire a company-sized unit for the job. I'm suggesting that compnay-sized units are few and far between because it costs so much to keep them together between tickets.
Instead, the hirer contacts a permanent merc cadre who can put a company-sized unit together, have put a company-sized unit together in the past, and have a good record with units of that size or larger. After they're hired, the cadre fleshs out in transit, trains while staging for the assault, fights the action, and pays off afterwards returning to it's more financially manageable 'between tickets' size.
A little here, a little there sure but remember, Mercenary Units are expensive, both in terms of equipment and personnel. They are also high risk investments, after all what other investment do you make in multi-million dollar amounts that both intentionally and literally then gets sent into harms way to get shot at?Exactly. That is also precisely why they won't be negotiating business loans from banks and why they'll find it extremely hard to maintain any substantial TO&E between tickets. A backer/venture capitalist could very well provide funding hoping for a big payoff from a specific ticket, but none will fund a unit for years hoping for a steady monetary return.
National/planetary governments may very well form and hire out mercs hoping to create veterans for their armed forces. Large corporations could very well have a merc unit embedded in their regular security forces using any possible cash flow the mercs may generate help pay for other security assets, letting the mercs' customers help subsidize the corporation's entire security budget as it were. However these type of units will have many strings attached to their hire and use.
But the capital has to be there and there has to be a decent return on that capital for the situation to exist in the first place, in order to trade the favors.A merc unit is far more risky than an IRA, saving account, or T-bill. Is not an investment in the usual sense, so the usual investors will not be backing any merc unit. You can't apply staid, Savings & Loan, banking ideas to the problem. This is much more like the venture capital market with backers 'betting' on specific units in specific tickets.
That's where all the 'favors' I've been blathering about begin to work. News starts to bubble along the 'merc circuit' that Arglebargle-IX may be looking for a little help. The mercs call in favors to first determine if the rumors are true and then to learn what they can about the prospective job. Once they think they know enough, they can put together their 'pitch'; hiring some personnel, arranging for some equipment, and taking other measures to make their outfit look like the right one for the job. The Arglebargle-IX ticket may require SAMs or demolition experts? Let's ensure we present those skills in our 'pitch' to the client then.
Meanwhile, we're also looking up 'venture capitalists'. We pitch them that with X amount of credits we can buy/hire Y and Y will give the unit a damn good chance of both landing the Arglebargle-IX ticket and fufilling it. Care to invest in this ticket? If we don't get it, we can resell Y and recoup some losses.
We're also approaching past, present, and future patrons regarding the ticket. Anyone have any troubles with Arglebargle? If you don't want us to 'pitch' for the ticket you need to make it worth our while. Can anyone help us with transport? Personnel? Fungibles? Local information? Getting our advance agents on the ground? All in return for future considerations of course.
It's all normal business practices and it takes place well before Arglebargle-IX needs the job done. Remember the travel/comm times involved. A single question and reply will take two weeks at the very least. If we're lucky, this is all going on while the unit is wrapping up a current ticket.
An MCr13+ light tank is hardly simply a favor.That depends on how many of those tanks you have sitting in your inventory. You'd be surprised at how many multi-million dollar warships the US has given away in return for 'favors'.
Have fun,
Bill
We're in about 99.999% agreement it seems.
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Like Starship finance, Starships have to be generally profitable and able to make payments, for a bank to authorize a loan. Similarily, Mercenary Units have to be generally profitable, to attract backers.Are you suggesting that merc units take out bank loans? I retire from the Unified Armies, gather some friends, put together a buisness plan, walk into the First Bank of Mora, and make a presentation to get a loan?
I'd think that merc units get something more akin to venture capital money. Having been on both sides of the venture capital equation for over a year now, I can assure you that the 'certainty of monetary return' you seem to be presuming is a myth.
The issue with not having the unit together is you are adding 4-6 weeks to the travel time to equip, train and integrate new troops.You hire and equip during that travel time. Training is something your hires will already have. Mercs don't run boot camps.
The large, real life, merc outfits that fought in the Biafran conflict arrived as cadre and 'fleshed out' while in-country. The places they travelled through while getting to Nigeria would have been worried about a hundred or so armed troops travelling through at once.
Historically, any large units that stay large between 'tickets' belong to someone who picks up the bills no matter what; FFL and the rest.
It also means that units with their own transport will be more marketable than units that rely on outside transportation.That's the rub, isn't it? This thread is full of cost estimates. Add troops and the costs go up. Add heavy equipment and the costs go up. Ditto vehicles. Ditto ships. Where do you get the start-up money? Banks aren't going to loan it to you. The three Type-R subbies it takes to move that single armor company cost far more than the company does. Why risk them in the merc biz? Why not haul freight?
In fact most of the published canon tickets are short fuse tickets.Sorry, you'll have to prove that. None of the LBB:4 tickets mention any deadline, nothing like Here's the proposed job, can you begin in X days? In fact, most presume a lenghty lead time, the Dream ticket especially. Even A:7 simply begins when Broadsword arrives at Garda-Vilis. Nothing whatsoever is said about when Vilis hired Broadsword.
The point was supposed to be that a unit will likely specialize so that they mostly took Commando Tickets, or they mostly took Striker Tickets. Not take one ticket as a Striker Unit and the next ticket as a Commando Unit.Agreed.
More likely a unit is already on hand hoping to wrangle a ticket, either tipped off by escalating tensions, news stories, or inside information provided by a patron. It may have even been already hired after a fashion by a patron against future need; i.e. We'll meet your company cadre payroll over the next calendar year if you keep keep at least half your force on Arglebargle-IX and don't hire the remainder out on tickets more than one month's travel time away or We'll ship your unit at cost along our routes during the next six months if you let us vet all your tickets during that period.
[quote][qb]But that doesn't overall help the bottom line.So what else does? You're suggesting there are units with lots of personnel and large permanent TO&Es including ships. Where did the start-up costs come from? How does a unit afford all that before and between tickets?
Take the LBB:4 commando mission. The hirer wants a company-sized unit to grab and hold a mine. You're suggesting that they go out and hire a company-sized unit for the job. I'm suggesting that compnay-sized units are few and far between because it costs so much to keep them together between tickets.
Instead, the hirer contacts a permanent merc cadre who can put a company-sized unit together, have put a company-sized unit together in the past, and have a good record with units of that size or larger. After they're hired, the cadre fleshs out in transit, trains while staging for the assault, fights the action, and pays off afterwards returning to it's more financially manageable 'between tickets' size.
A little here, a little there sure but remember, Mercenary Units are expensive, both in terms of equipment and personnel. They are also high risk investments, after all what other investment do you make in multi-million dollar amounts that both intentionally and literally then gets sent into harms way to get shot at?Exactly. That is also precisely why they won't be negotiating business loans from banks and why they'll find it extremely hard to maintain any substantial TO&E between tickets. A backer/venture capitalist could very well provide funding hoping for a big payoff from a specific ticket, but none will fund a unit for years hoping for a steady monetary return.
National/planetary governments may very well form and hire out mercs hoping to create veterans for their armed forces. Large corporations could very well have a merc unit embedded in their regular security forces using any possible cash flow the mercs may generate help pay for other security assets, letting the mercs' customers help subsidize the corporation's entire security budget as it were. However these type of units will have many strings attached to their hire and use.
But the capital has to be there and there has to be a decent return on that capital for the situation to exist in the first place, in order to trade the favors.A merc unit is far more risky than an IRA, saving account, or T-bill. Is not an investment in the usual sense, so the usual investors will not be backing any merc unit. You can't apply staid, Savings & Loan, banking ideas to the problem. This is much more like the venture capital market with backers 'betting' on specific units in specific tickets.
That's where all the 'favors' I've been blathering about begin to work. News starts to bubble along the 'merc circuit' that Arglebargle-IX may be looking for a little help. The mercs call in favors to first determine if the rumors are true and then to learn what they can about the prospective job. Once they think they know enough, they can put together their 'pitch'; hiring some personnel, arranging for some equipment, and taking other measures to make their outfit look like the right one for the job. The Arglebargle-IX ticket may require SAMs or demolition experts? Let's ensure we present those skills in our 'pitch' to the client then.
Meanwhile, we're also looking up 'venture capitalists'. We pitch them that with X amount of credits we can buy/hire Y and Y will give the unit a damn good chance of both landing the Arglebargle-IX ticket and fufilling it. Care to invest in this ticket? If we don't get it, we can resell Y and recoup some losses.
We're also approaching past, present, and future patrons regarding the ticket. Anyone have any troubles with Arglebargle? If you don't want us to 'pitch' for the ticket you need to make it worth our while. Can anyone help us with transport? Personnel? Fungibles? Local information? Getting our advance agents on the ground? All in return for future considerations of course.
It's all normal business practices and it takes place well before Arglebargle-IX needs the job done. Remember the travel/comm times involved. A single question and reply will take two weeks at the very least. If we're lucky, this is all going on while the unit is wrapping up a current ticket.
An MCr13+ light tank is hardly simply a favor.That depends on how many of those tanks you have sitting in your inventory. You'd be surprised at how many multi-million dollar warships the US has given away in return for 'favors'.
Have fun,
Bill
flykiller
December 9th, 2006, 02:24 AM
Instead, the hirer contacts a permanent merc cadre who can put a company-sized unit together, have put a company-sized unit together in the past, and have a good record with units of that size or larger. After they're hired, the cadre fleshs out in transit, trains while staging for the assault, fights the action, and pays off afterwards returning to it's more financially manageable 'between tickets' size.(jumping in)
if the merc company is not holding and maintaining all this equipment, then who is? surely newly hired mercs don't just pop into the local pawn shop, pick up a few APC's and plasma canons, and then pawn them back again when they return. somebody's gonna pay the warehouse bill, the wear-and-tear bill, and the replacement bill, or the equipment won't be available.
if the merc company is not holding and maintaining all this equipment, then who is? surely newly hired mercs don't just pop into the local pawn shop, pick up a few APC's and plasma canons, and then pawn them back again when they return. somebody's gonna pay the warehouse bill, the wear-and-tear bill, and the replacement bill, or the equipment won't be available.
mike wightman
December 9th, 2006, 03:53 AM
Read up on Intstellarms, LIC in library data again ;)
Instellarms is a specialty supplier of all sizes and types of mercenary units. It manufactures, buys, and sells military equipment. Agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over. The company does not deal in interstellar vessels, or in chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons.
Instellarms is a specialty supplier of all sizes and types of mercenary units. It manufactures, buys, and sells military equipment. Agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over. The company does not deal in interstellar vessels, or in chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons.
aramis
December 9th, 2006, 05:27 AM
Further, it is implied in TTA that it might be possible to hire other megacorps security forces for more hostile duties.
Permanent merc units either have a wealthy patron maintaining them as huscarles, but letting them "Train Aggressively" by merc-ing out subunits, some baseline government contract (IMTU, the 3076 BIIR has a multi-year contract to provide security at Regni Downs... it makes the payroll and allows access to a training range...), or has strong corporate investments of its own. Subsidized merchants make a decent investment of a sudden windfall... that one can recall them to duty is a bonus.
A typical hiring cycle would probably be a two to four month lag... 1 to two months from approval to find the HQ and negotiate, and another 1 to 2 months to get them there. Any such ticket needs to be able to make salaries cover the travel time plus negotiation time upon re-availability.
So, if they are awake during the time between missions, but on the payroll, why not train?
This puts a major divide between types of units...
The Fixed Formation of Elites...
The Cadre plus locals and ragamuffins...
The elite specialists in small units...
The "Glory Units" of "Huscarles deferring their costs"...
The Ad-Hoc "Out of Work Grunts" taking advantage of a shortfall.
Performance bonuses can be seen as powerful incentives. Leg infantry has the lowest equipment costs... but makes up for it in being near-ubiquitous.
One of the major problems I see in Traveller discussions is that people assume a pace of life similar to Modern Euro/US cultures.... that is impossible on an interstellar scale, even when it is possible locally.
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both.
Permanent merc units either have a wealthy patron maintaining them as huscarles, but letting them "Train Aggressively" by merc-ing out subunits, some baseline government contract (IMTU, the 3076 BIIR has a multi-year contract to provide security at Regni Downs... it makes the payroll and allows access to a training range...), or has strong corporate investments of its own. Subsidized merchants make a decent investment of a sudden windfall... that one can recall them to duty is a bonus.
A typical hiring cycle would probably be a two to four month lag... 1 to two months from approval to find the HQ and negotiate, and another 1 to 2 months to get them there. Any such ticket needs to be able to make salaries cover the travel time plus negotiation time upon re-availability.
So, if they are awake during the time between missions, but on the payroll, why not train?
This puts a major divide between types of units...
The Fixed Formation of Elites...
The Cadre plus locals and ragamuffins...
The elite specialists in small units...
The "Glory Units" of "Huscarles deferring their costs"...
The Ad-Hoc "Out of Work Grunts" taking advantage of a shortfall.
Performance bonuses can be seen as powerful incentives. Leg infantry has the lowest equipment costs... but makes up for it in being near-ubiquitous.
One of the major problems I see in Traveller discussions is that people assume a pace of life similar to Modern Euro/US cultures.... that is impossible on an interstellar scale, even when it is possible locally.
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both.
Piper
December 9th, 2006, 05:40 AM
While I agree that most mercenary units would be small and lightly equipped (for ease of gameplay if no other reason) opportunities exist for larger and heavier units.
Consider Poroszlo (http://www.jtas.net/travelleratlas/Sectors/Spinward_Marches/Rhylanor/Porozlo_World.html). It's not too big a stretch to imagine several battalions being able to find near full-time employment here along side a number of smaller independants.
Worlds like this can offer a steady source of work, easy access to equipment, a ready supply of recruits and can serve as a centralized clearinghouse for clients seeking units.
A steady source of employment creates a situation where large, specialized and/or high tech units can be formed and maintained. Once these units exist they can be operated off-planet profitably.
Consider Poroszlo (http://www.jtas.net/travelleratlas/Sectors/Spinward_Marches/Rhylanor/Porozlo_World.html). It's not too big a stretch to imagine several battalions being able to find near full-time employment here along side a number of smaller independants.
Worlds like this can offer a steady source of work, easy access to equipment, a ready supply of recruits and can serve as a centralized clearinghouse for clients seeking units.
A steady source of employment creates a situation where large, specialized and/or high tech units can be formed and maintained. Once these units exist they can be operated off-planet profitably.
atpollard
December 9th, 2006, 08:46 AM
Originally posted by Aramis:
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both. I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.
Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.
A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.
All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors.
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both. I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.
Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.
A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.
All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors.
mike wightman
December 9th, 2006, 08:49 AM
Consider this little snippet from the rumours section of A1:
K. A mercenary captain (age 33, 9A6DA8, former Marine) says that he is en route to Efate (0105) to join a mercenary operation locally organized to put down a minor rebellion.Some questions that spring to mind:
Is he paying his own passage?
How many months travel is he from Efate?
How far does news of merc. tickets spread?
K. A mercenary captain (age 33, 9A6DA8, former Marine) says that he is en route to Efate (0105) to join a mercenary operation locally organized to put down a minor rebellion.Some questions that spring to mind:
Is he paying his own passage?
How many months travel is he from Efate?
How far does news of merc. tickets spread?
BetterThanLife
December 9th, 2006, 08:59 AM
Just because it is too risky for a bank to finance the typical Mercenary Unit, especially a startup, that doesn't mean that others wouldn't want to.
The issue is that whoever is backing the Mercenary Unit and for most reasons, there are of course exceptions, is going to want to see a profit. Rich people don't get rich by throwing money away. Big Corporations don't do things that don't have a positive effect on the bottom line. Because backing a Mercenary Unit is a risky endeavor, financially, the return has to be higher than average, in order to justify the risk. People making risky investments generally prefer to make their initial capital back quickly.
According to LBB4, which of the OTU Mercenary Sources is the only one that really lays out pay and to some extent financing. After expenses are deducted from the ticket, the balance is divided in half. Half goes to the owners of the unit and the other half is broken down as shares to the unit members. So the backers are getting a percentage of the profits, if the unit makes no profits then they get no return.
Many of the tickets are success only. Regardless of how good the unit is, they can't always win, and even if they do win will suffer losses. Most of the Tickets are specified as less than 6 months. Striker missions are generally one campaign, and most are specified as under 6 months. Commando Missions are generally raids with a quick in and out strategy, the longest specified is less than 2 weeks.) Even the majority of the Cadre Missions are specified as under 1 year. In fact of all the tickets only one that doesn't specify appears to have potential to last over a year.
From LBB4 and 76 Patrons they break down as:
LBB4:
Striker: Less than 3 months. Success Only, Battalion (with mobility and Commando element) MCr30.
Commando: Less than a week. (Take and hold for 2 days.), Company, MCr2 up front, MCr3 Success.
Cadre: Unspecified but long term implied. Less than a platoon, double salaries.
Security: Unspecified but implied short duration, and the complimentary ticket is less than 2 weeks. Company, Success Only MCr.5 (Poorly defined as to what Success actually entails.)
The Dream Ticket: Unspecified but likely less than 3 months. (specifying rapid breakthroughs and Blitzkrieg tactics.) MCr50 Success Only, though up to MCr30 can be used for equipping the unit, they don't keep it if they lose. Specifies Heavily Reinforced, Mechanized Battalion.
76 Patrons:
Cadre: 6-9 months Double Salaries, Company.
Cadre: Unspecified but appears to be the same 6-9 months as the previous. Platoon, Double Salaries.
Commando: Less than 2 weeks. Platoon MCr1.5 Success Only. (Success is ill defined here as well.)
Security: 6 months, Battalion MCr10.
Security: Unspecified, implied short term. Double Salaries.
Commando: In and out raid, less than a week. Company, MCr1 with a MCr.25 bonus possible but unlikely.
Striker: Unspecified but short duration and bonus for less than 2 months. Regiment MCr25 with a MCr.5 bonus for less than 2 months.
Cadre: 9 Months, Regiment MCr10
Commando: Platoon, in and out raid, MCr1.
Security: Platoon, 3 weeks KCr100.
Commando: In and out raid, Company, MCr1, Own Starship transport arrangements required.
Security: 6 weeks, Regiment, Triple Salaries and MCr1.
Striker: Unspecified, Company, MCr1 (Success Only, Snowballs chance in hell for success, IMHO.)
Cadre: 3-6 months, Battalion, MCr10 (KCr100 for less than 3 months.)TL12 specified
Striker: Unspecified, though one battle, MCr1 (Success Only)
Striker: 6 months, Battalion, MCr10.
Of these tickets the majority are short fuse. (There are a couple that specify it, the majority of the rest have a definite sense of urgency to them, of course that sense of urgency is my opinion your interpretation may vary.) None of these appear to be, take your time, we'll start the war once you get here. They are hiring units, in an interstellar sense, locally, and they want them in a hurry.
Based on these, having ships acting as Couriers for units plus transport makes sense. Someone else that has integral transport is going to get the contract, if they are available, over someone that needs to put together transport for the mission. A Successful Mercenary Unit is going to have more than one ticket a year. (Commando units, if they can find them can run them once a month, though finding them that close together is a definite issue.) You won't need the transports while on the job, except for resupply, so you can use them to attempt to cover some of their own expenses, and to put your marketing people out there, to get more business.
The issue is that whoever is backing the Mercenary Unit and for most reasons, there are of course exceptions, is going to want to see a profit. Rich people don't get rich by throwing money away. Big Corporations don't do things that don't have a positive effect on the bottom line. Because backing a Mercenary Unit is a risky endeavor, financially, the return has to be higher than average, in order to justify the risk. People making risky investments generally prefer to make their initial capital back quickly.
According to LBB4, which of the OTU Mercenary Sources is the only one that really lays out pay and to some extent financing. After expenses are deducted from the ticket, the balance is divided in half. Half goes to the owners of the unit and the other half is broken down as shares to the unit members. So the backers are getting a percentage of the profits, if the unit makes no profits then they get no return.
Many of the tickets are success only. Regardless of how good the unit is, they can't always win, and even if they do win will suffer losses. Most of the Tickets are specified as less than 6 months. Striker missions are generally one campaign, and most are specified as under 6 months. Commando Missions are generally raids with a quick in and out strategy, the longest specified is less than 2 weeks.) Even the majority of the Cadre Missions are specified as under 1 year. In fact of all the tickets only one that doesn't specify appears to have potential to last over a year.
From LBB4 and 76 Patrons they break down as:
LBB4:
Striker: Less than 3 months. Success Only, Battalion (with mobility and Commando element) MCr30.
Commando: Less than a week. (Take and hold for 2 days.), Company, MCr2 up front, MCr3 Success.
Cadre: Unspecified but long term implied. Less than a platoon, double salaries.
Security: Unspecified but implied short duration, and the complimentary ticket is less than 2 weeks. Company, Success Only MCr.5 (Poorly defined as to what Success actually entails.)
The Dream Ticket: Unspecified but likely less than 3 months. (specifying rapid breakthroughs and Blitzkrieg tactics.) MCr50 Success Only, though up to MCr30 can be used for equipping the unit, they don't keep it if they lose. Specifies Heavily Reinforced, Mechanized Battalion.
76 Patrons:
Cadre: 6-9 months Double Salaries, Company.
Cadre: Unspecified but appears to be the same 6-9 months as the previous. Platoon, Double Salaries.
Commando: Less than 2 weeks. Platoon MCr1.5 Success Only. (Success is ill defined here as well.)
Security: 6 months, Battalion MCr10.
Security: Unspecified, implied short term. Double Salaries.
Commando: In and out raid, less than a week. Company, MCr1 with a MCr.25 bonus possible but unlikely.
Striker: Unspecified but short duration and bonus for less than 2 months. Regiment MCr25 with a MCr.5 bonus for less than 2 months.
Cadre: 9 Months, Regiment MCr10
Commando: Platoon, in and out raid, MCr1.
Security: Platoon, 3 weeks KCr100.
Commando: In and out raid, Company, MCr1, Own Starship transport arrangements required.
Security: 6 weeks, Regiment, Triple Salaries and MCr1.
Striker: Unspecified, Company, MCr1 (Success Only, Snowballs chance in hell for success, IMHO.)
Cadre: 3-6 months, Battalion, MCr10 (KCr100 for less than 3 months.)TL12 specified
Striker: Unspecified, though one battle, MCr1 (Success Only)
Striker: 6 months, Battalion, MCr10.
Of these tickets the majority are short fuse. (There are a couple that specify it, the majority of the rest have a definite sense of urgency to them, of course that sense of urgency is my opinion your interpretation may vary.) None of these appear to be, take your time, we'll start the war once you get here. They are hiring units, in an interstellar sense, locally, and they want them in a hurry.
Based on these, having ships acting as Couriers for units plus transport makes sense. Someone else that has integral transport is going to get the contract, if they are available, over someone that needs to put together transport for the mission. A Successful Mercenary Unit is going to have more than one ticket a year. (Commando units, if they can find them can run them once a month, though finding them that close together is a definite issue.) You won't need the transports while on the job, except for resupply, so you can use them to attempt to cover some of their own expenses, and to put your marketing people out there, to get more business.
BetterThanLife
December 9th, 2006, 09:52 AM
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both. I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.
Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.
A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.
All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors. </font>[/QUOTE]The problem is that Mercenary Units are higher risk, so they will need to recapture initial investment sooner than a traditional business. Further for a Mechanized Unit, or even Motorized unit, expenses can quickly exceed 3 times salaries. (Especially when the other side has Mercs as well.)
GM doesn't plan to have their plants shot up. They certainly don't commit their assets to live fire exercises. (What someone else does with their product is another matter and GM is more than happy to have the end user commit them to getting shot up so GM can build replacements. smile.gif ) So the model that 3 times salaries would be enough to generate sufficient profit and cover expenses, both expendable supplies and durable supplies, may or may not work, depending on the nature of the unit and the nature of the ticket. For a low tech light unit designed to operate on nice earth like planets, or when the Patron is providing the majority of the supplies, sure. For a more seriously equipped units designed to operate in a Vacuum or other hostile environments, or a Heavily Mechanized Unit, probably not so much.
As an example to field a Light Infantry Platoon of 36 equipped to TL12 with Combat Armor, Gauss Rifles, a handful of PGMP-12 and the Gauss Rifle equivalent of the SAW, no heavy weapons, is going to cost, depending on the ruleset, an initial expenditure of MCr1.5+ without including expendables or any transport besides LPCs (Leather Personnel Carriers or boots. smile.gif ) The salary of that Platoon is typically around Cr15,400 (Plus shares) per month. If you don't replace anything or use any expendables, it would take 4 years just to recover your start up costs.
For a Basic Load of ammo, figure 8 mags and 6 Ram Grenades, (Basic load is designed to last one long firefight.) per soldier, costs more than your typical soldier makes in a month. Give the Unit 12 PGMP-12's and everyone else Gauss Rifles and Basic load for the Platoon is 70% of the Platoon's Monthly Salary. (If everyone has Gauss Rifles then Basic Load for the Platoon is 98% of the Unit's Monthly Salary.) And we haven't lost anything, or bought food. Looking at this if the ticket pays double standard Salaries and the Patron isn't buying ammo, the unit goes in the hole for the ticket.
Depending on the expected OP Tempo of the ticket, you can expect to go through, on average, 2-5 Basic Loads of Ammo per week. (That Company Commando Mission, where it is take and hold, they will likely go through no less than 6 basic loads, in 2 days.) (Lasers are starting to look good again. smile.gif )
Based on LBB4 wages, (Which I always thought were low.) Double Standard Salaries, without ammunition supply or a major bonus don't work. In fact ammunition expenditure is likely to be double monthly wages per week.
Going back to what Bill was saying about not keeping more than a Cadre around, with normal wages that low, and the benefit of having a unit that already knows how to work together (for an example of that benefit just look how the Colt's Offense works), there is little incentive to break up the unit between assignments.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both. I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.
Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.
A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.
All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors. </font>[/QUOTE]The problem is that Mercenary Units are higher risk, so they will need to recapture initial investment sooner than a traditional business. Further for a Mechanized Unit, or even Motorized unit, expenses can quickly exceed 3 times salaries. (Especially when the other side has Mercs as well.)
GM doesn't plan to have their plants shot up. They certainly don't commit their assets to live fire exercises. (What someone else does with their product is another matter and GM is more than happy to have the end user commit them to getting shot up so GM can build replacements. smile.gif ) So the model that 3 times salaries would be enough to generate sufficient profit and cover expenses, both expendable supplies and durable supplies, may or may not work, depending on the nature of the unit and the nature of the ticket. For a low tech light unit designed to operate on nice earth like planets, or when the Patron is providing the majority of the supplies, sure. For a more seriously equipped units designed to operate in a Vacuum or other hostile environments, or a Heavily Mechanized Unit, probably not so much.
As an example to field a Light Infantry Platoon of 36 equipped to TL12 with Combat Armor, Gauss Rifles, a handful of PGMP-12 and the Gauss Rifle equivalent of the SAW, no heavy weapons, is going to cost, depending on the ruleset, an initial expenditure of MCr1.5+ without including expendables or any transport besides LPCs (Leather Personnel Carriers or boots. smile.gif ) The salary of that Platoon is typically around Cr15,400 (Plus shares) per month. If you don't replace anything or use any expendables, it would take 4 years just to recover your start up costs.
For a Basic Load of ammo, figure 8 mags and 6 Ram Grenades, (Basic load is designed to last one long firefight.) per soldier, costs more than your typical soldier makes in a month. Give the Unit 12 PGMP-12's and everyone else Gauss Rifles and Basic load for the Platoon is 70% of the Platoon's Monthly Salary. (If everyone has Gauss Rifles then Basic Load for the Platoon is 98% of the Unit's Monthly Salary.) And we haven't lost anything, or bought food. Looking at this if the ticket pays double standard Salaries and the Patron isn't buying ammo, the unit goes in the hole for the ticket.
Depending on the expected OP Tempo of the ticket, you can expect to go through, on average, 2-5 Basic Loads of Ammo per week. (That Company Commando Mission, where it is take and hold, they will likely go through no less than 6 basic loads, in 2 days.) (Lasers are starting to look good again. smile.gif )
Based on LBB4 wages, (Which I always thought were low.) Double Standard Salaries, without ammunition supply or a major bonus don't work. In fact ammunition expenditure is likely to be double monthly wages per week.
Going back to what Bill was saying about not keeping more than a Cadre around, with normal wages that low, and the benefit of having a unit that already knows how to work together (for an example of that benefit just look how the Colt's Offense works), there is little incentive to break up the unit between assignments.
atpollard
December 9th, 2006, 10:08 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Based on these, having ships acting as Couriers for units plus transport makes sense.
(snip)
You won't need the transports while on the job, except for resupply, so you can use them to attempt to cover some of their own expenses, and to put your marketing people out there, to get more business. As a Merchant, any place with enough of a shooting war to recruit mercenaries is probably a red zone (or at least amber). With fewer commercial ships plying the system, it seems ripe for outrageous profits in the speculative cargo market. [I think the official term is profiteering smile.gif ]
Send in that Batallion with 1 extra Fat Trader and a Broker-4, the right speculative cargo for the target world, and a +4 to the price roll due to the crisis, and he could earn more than the pay for the entire ticket. With a batallion to escort it, the Trader has an above average chance to get through to a red zone.
War is all well and good, but business is business. ;)
Based on these, having ships acting as Couriers for units plus transport makes sense.
(snip)
You won't need the transports while on the job, except for resupply, so you can use them to attempt to cover some of their own expenses, and to put your marketing people out there, to get more business. As a Merchant, any place with enough of a shooting war to recruit mercenaries is probably a red zone (or at least amber). With fewer commercial ships plying the system, it seems ripe for outrageous profits in the speculative cargo market. [I think the official term is profiteering smile.gif ]
Send in that Batallion with 1 extra Fat Trader and a Broker-4, the right speculative cargo for the target world, and a +4 to the price roll due to the crisis, and he could earn more than the pay for the entire ticket. With a batallion to escort it, the Trader has an above average chance to get through to a red zone.
War is all well and good, but business is business. ;)
atpollard
December 9th, 2006, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
The problem is that Mercenary Units are higher risk, so they will need to recapture initial investment sooner than a traditional business. Further for a Mechanized Unit, or even Motorized unit, expenses can quickly exceed 3 times salaries. (Especially when the other side has Mercs as well.) No argument from me on any of your points.
A Ticket of 3 times salary was intended to represent an absolute lower limit - less than that and you can earn more money running a grocery store with far fewer gunfights.
At the other extreme, a ticket where the pay is total expenses plus 50 percent is double what the non-military private sector earns in profit (not at all unreasonable). A ticket of double the total expenses is 4 times what the non-military private sector earns in profit (a return of four times the standard market rate would encourage many investors to start looking at risk vs reward for supporting a mercenary unit - Should I invest in a startup company with a 25% per year return on my money or a mercenary unit that offers a 100% per year return on my money). A ticket of 3 times the total expenses is 6 times what the non-military private sector earns in profit (at this rate of return, you would be turning investors away - Should I invest in a startup company with a 25% per year return on my money or a mercenary unit that offers a 150% per year return on my money).
Obviously losses of men and equipment is the big variable in all of this, but there is probably a normal percent of equipment that will be lost in any action and that figure must be built into the operating expenses.
The problem is that Mercenary Units are higher risk, so they will need to recapture initial investment sooner than a traditional business. Further for a Mechanized Unit, or even Motorized unit, expenses can quickly exceed 3 times salaries. (Especially when the other side has Mercs as well.) No argument from me on any of your points.
A Ticket of 3 times salary was intended to represent an absolute lower limit - less than that and you can earn more money running a grocery store with far fewer gunfights.
At the other extreme, a ticket where the pay is total expenses plus 50 percent is double what the non-military private sector earns in profit (not at all unreasonable). A ticket of double the total expenses is 4 times what the non-military private sector earns in profit (a return of four times the standard market rate would encourage many investors to start looking at risk vs reward for supporting a mercenary unit - Should I invest in a startup company with a 25% per year return on my money or a mercenary unit that offers a 100% per year return on my money). A ticket of 3 times the total expenses is 6 times what the non-military private sector earns in profit (at this rate of return, you would be turning investors away - Should I invest in a startup company with a 25% per year return on my money or a mercenary unit that offers a 150% per year return on my money).
Obviously losses of men and equipment is the big variable in all of this, but there is probably a normal percent of equipment that will be lost in any action and that figure must be built into the operating expenses.
flykiller
December 9th, 2006, 10:52 AM
Instellarms is a specialty supplier of all sizes and types of mercenary units. It manufactures, buys, and sells military equipment.transferring overhead costs doesn't make them go away. in fact it increases them. so this company goes to where the fighting is, obtains used equipment, presumably transports it whatever distance back to some centralized depot, to which mercenaries go to re-obtain it and re-transport it whatever distance back to where its needed. this definitely involves at least as much transportation, and probably a lot more, than a unit keeping its own gear, and it definitely means a lot of middle-men now need to be paid. this could easily double equipment costs.
atpollard
December 9th, 2006, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Instellarms is a specialty supplier of all sizes and types of mercenary units. It manufactures, buys, and sells military equipment.transferring overhead costs doesn't make them go away. in fact it increases them. so this company goes to where the fighting is, obtains used equipment, presumably transports it whatever distance back to some centralized depot, to which mercenaries go to re-obtain it and re-transport it whatever distance back to where its needed. this definitely involves at least as much transportation, and probably a lot more, than a unit keeping its own gear, and it definitely means a lot of middle-men now need to be paid. this could easily double equipment costs. </font>[/QUOTE]But they could be a silent partner who takes 50 percent of the total ticket off the top, but loans all of the heavy gear to the unit for the duration of the ticket. The actual cost of a tank to the manufacturer should be about half of the market price. Ditto for repairs. Everybody makes money.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Instellarms is a specialty supplier of all sizes and types of mercenary units. It manufactures, buys, and sells military equipment.transferring overhead costs doesn't make them go away. in fact it increases them. so this company goes to where the fighting is, obtains used equipment, presumably transports it whatever distance back to some centralized depot, to which mercenaries go to re-obtain it and re-transport it whatever distance back to where its needed. this definitely involves at least as much transportation, and probably a lot more, than a unit keeping its own gear, and it definitely means a lot of middle-men now need to be paid. this could easily double equipment costs. </font>[/QUOTE]But they could be a silent partner who takes 50 percent of the total ticket off the top, but loans all of the heavy gear to the unit for the duration of the ticket. The actual cost of a tank to the manufacturer should be about half of the market price. Ditto for repairs. Everybody makes money.
BetterThanLife
December 9th, 2006, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by atpollard:
But they could be a silent partner who takes 50 percent of the total ticket off the top, but loans all of the heavy gear to the unit for the duration of the ticket. The actual cost of a tank to the manufacturer should be about half of the market price. Ditto for repairs. Everybody makes money. Unless the tank is destroyed. (Even at 50% that is still going to be MCr7+ for a tank out the airlock, per tank.) A Damaged tank has to be shipped back to the Depot, and then attempt to repair it. Holes in armor, means you will pretty much have to write the tank off, you don't weld or patch armor plating and most armored vehicles, since WWII, you aren't talking about simply replacing a quarter panel but the entire armored body.
But they could be a silent partner who takes 50 percent of the total ticket off the top, but loans all of the heavy gear to the unit for the duration of the ticket. The actual cost of a tank to the manufacturer should be about half of the market price. Ditto for repairs. Everybody makes money. Unless the tank is destroyed. (Even at 50% that is still going to be MCr7+ for a tank out the airlock, per tank.) A Damaged tank has to be shipped back to the Depot, and then attempt to repair it. Holes in armor, means you will pretty much have to write the tank off, you don't weld or patch armor plating and most armored vehicles, since WWII, you aren't talking about simply replacing a quarter panel but the entire armored body.
Piper
December 9th, 2006, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
A Damaged tank has to be shipped back to the Depot, and then attempt to repair it. Holes in armor, means you will pretty much have to write the tank off, you don't weld or patch armor plating and most armored vehicles, since WWII, you aren't talking about simply replacing a quarter panel but the entire armored body. Not if you're using Striker. Anything short of a total brew-up can be repaired in the field. Cost ranges from nothing to full replacement of individual systems depending on type and extent of damage.
A Damaged tank has to be shipped back to the Depot, and then attempt to repair it. Holes in armor, means you will pretty much have to write the tank off, you don't weld or patch armor plating and most armored vehicles, since WWII, you aren't talking about simply replacing a quarter panel but the entire armored body. Not if you're using Striker. Anything short of a total brew-up can be repaired in the field. Cost ranges from nothing to full replacement of individual systems depending on type and extent of damage.
atpollard
December 9th, 2006, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
But they could be a silent partner who takes 50 percent of the total ticket off the top, but loans all of the heavy gear to the unit for the duration of the ticket. The actual cost of a tank to the manufacturer should be about half of the market price. Ditto for repairs. Everybody makes money. Unless the tank is destroyed. (Even at 50% that is still going to be MCr7+ for a tank out the airlock, per tank.) A Damaged tank has to be shipped back to the Depot, and then attempt to repair it. Holes in armor, means you will pretty much have to write the tank off, you don't weld or patch armor plating and most armored vehicles, since WWII, you aren't talking about simply replacing a quarter panel but the entire armored body. </font>[/QUOTE]There is no concievable model in which a Merc unit can enter a ticket with new MBTs, loose half of them and come out with a profit. With Billion or Trillion Credit Tickets, it would be easier for the client to buy all of the equipment and hire his own soldiers to operate it ... but that is not a mercenary company, is it?
What percentage of the vehicles are lost and damaged in a "typical" (whatever that means) ticket?
The cost to repair or replace the expected losses is what must be added to the expenses of a ticket to determine the Fee for that ticket.
IF 10 percent of vehicles are typically destroyed and 20 percent of vehicles are damaged (average damaged vehicle costs 25 percent of its new price to repair), then the average cost to put a vehicle in harms way is 15 percent of the total cost of that vehicle (plus ammo and gas). This vehicle cost must be included in the EXPENSES collumn to determine what tickets will be profitable.
I selected the above percentages out of thin air. Feel free to post figures which you feel are more accurate.
In defense of my earlier post, the Patron will be better able to afford the loss of a 7 MCr tank than the unit will be able to afford the loss of the exact same tank at 14 MCr. The Patron will select Merc units and set the Patron's share based on the Merc Unit's track record. What the Patron owned MBT allows is for the same battle tank to be loaned out to multiple units to avoid the cost of purchasing a MBT that only sees use for a few months every few years.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by atpollard:
But they could be a silent partner who takes 50 percent of the total ticket off the top, but loans all of the heavy gear to the unit for the duration of the ticket. The actual cost of a tank to the manufacturer should be about half of the market price. Ditto for repairs. Everybody makes money. Unless the tank is destroyed. (Even at 50% that is still going to be MCr7+ for a tank out the airlock, per tank.) A Damaged tank has to be shipped back to the Depot, and then attempt to repair it. Holes in armor, means you will pretty much have to write the tank off, you don't weld or patch armor plating and most armored vehicles, since WWII, you aren't talking about simply replacing a quarter panel but the entire armored body. </font>[/QUOTE]There is no concievable model in which a Merc unit can enter a ticket with new MBTs, loose half of them and come out with a profit. With Billion or Trillion Credit Tickets, it would be easier for the client to buy all of the equipment and hire his own soldiers to operate it ... but that is not a mercenary company, is it?
What percentage of the vehicles are lost and damaged in a "typical" (whatever that means) ticket?
The cost to repair or replace the expected losses is what must be added to the expenses of a ticket to determine the Fee for that ticket.
IF 10 percent of vehicles are typically destroyed and 20 percent of vehicles are damaged (average damaged vehicle costs 25 percent of its new price to repair), then the average cost to put a vehicle in harms way is 15 percent of the total cost of that vehicle (plus ammo and gas). This vehicle cost must be included in the EXPENSES collumn to determine what tickets will be profitable.
I selected the above percentages out of thin air. Feel free to post figures which you feel are more accurate.
In defense of my earlier post, the Patron will be better able to afford the loss of a 7 MCr tank than the unit will be able to afford the loss of the exact same tank at 14 MCr. The Patron will select Merc units and set the Patron's share based on the Merc Unit's track record. What the Patron owned MBT allows is for the same battle tank to be loaned out to multiple units to avoid the cost of purchasing a MBT that only sees use for a few months every few years.
atpollard
December 9th, 2006, 12:55 PM
An alternative would be to allow the Merc Unit to post a bond for the full purchase price of the tank, and then rent it by the month for starship-like payments. When the tank is returned, the cost of repairs is deducted from the bond and the balance returned to the Merc Unit. This would allow the unit to rent exactly the right equipment for as long as needed and in whatever quantities are needed. No need to store a large seldom used inventory of expensive equipment. Keep your start-up funds as cash to fund each ticket one at a time.
Maxwell Industries [my merchant company] would be happy to rent vehicles to any Merc Unit at 1 percent of the purchase price per month delivered to the world of your choice. That MCr 14 tank mentioned earlier would only cost you Cr 140,000 per month to rent (plus a MCr 14 refundable bond).
The vehicle is delivered in battle-ready condition with a full load of fuel and ammo. All costs necessary to return the vehicle to the same condition will be deducted from the bond.
Maxwell Industries [my merchant company] would be happy to rent vehicles to any Merc Unit at 1 percent of the purchase price per month delivered to the world of your choice. That MCr 14 tank mentioned earlier would only cost you Cr 140,000 per month to rent (plus a MCr 14 refundable bond).
The vehicle is delivered in battle-ready condition with a full load of fuel and ammo. All costs necessary to return the vehicle to the same condition will be deducted from the bond.
BetterThanLife
December 9th, 2006, 01:17 PM
The figures I was running earlier assumed for major end items, such as tanks and APC's, on typical tickets to run at around 20% for the year. But OpTempo and combat losses could definitely drive that number up. Remember that Starship Maintenance is only 1/10th of a percent of the cost per year in maintenance. Actual routine maintenance cost is nil, especially when compared to ammunition expenditure and battle damage repairs. I don't expect units to routinely lose large percentages of their armor during combat operations. This way if they lose 1 in 5 over the course of a year and 20% is assumed in annual expenses things should pretty much work out. I think 10% is too low for reasonable expectations.
flykiller
December 9th, 2006, 01:56 PM
I don't expect units to routinely lose large percentages of their armor during combat operations.what, are you kidding? if the opposition is unprepared then yes, they're fairly safe, but if the armor runs up against prepared forces then any number of vehicles can be lost in a few minutes.
Piper
December 9th, 2006, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by flykiller:
... if the opposition is unprepared then yes, they're fairly safe, but if the armor runs up against prepared forces then any number of vehicles can be lost in a few minutes. Which is why it's difficult to price tickets without knowing what the opposition is. Even if you're using the abstract system, the relative unit efficiency ratings can make a tremendous difference in the outcome.
... if the opposition is unprepared then yes, they're fairly safe, but if the armor runs up against prepared forces then any number of vehicles can be lost in a few minutes. Which is why it's difficult to price tickets without knowing what the opposition is. Even if you're using the abstract system, the relative unit efficiency ratings can make a tremendous difference in the outcome.
BetterThanLife
December 9th, 2006, 05:02 PM
I didn't say they wouldn't lose large percentages. I said they wouldn't routinely lose large percentages. If they did routinely lose most of their armor then they wouldn't be in business. If they lose 10 tanks in one operation but no tanks in an additional 4 operations then 20% is still right. smile.gif I am not trying to find the exceptions I am trying to find the statistical norm. Overall, in general is 20% too low? Would 25% or 33% be more accurate?
Whipsnade
December 9th, 2006, 05:57 PM
Gents,
It's interesting how this discussion keeps returning to the exceptions and the extremes; big permanent units with grav tanks, APCs, and lots of heavy equipment.
Does anyone seriously think those units are the norm? That they aren't 1 in 100 or 1 in 500? That Broadsword is a freak?
Does anyone seriously think those types of units work as independents? That they own themselves? That they don't belong to some larger organization like a government or coproration who rents them out for combat experience?
You've all run the numbers. Tanks, APCs, starship transports (score a luagh point), it all adds up to unsupportable costs. The buy-in is too high. The maintenance between tickets is too high. The payroll is too high. Bankers aren't going to loan to mercs. Venture capital types are going to loan for specific operations only and not long term survival. The ticket earnings won't even cover a fraction of the costs associated with your Traveller-ized Hammer's Slammer or Falkenburg's Legion.
Pororzlo is an exception. Large permenent units with hefty TO&Es are the exception. Units with their own starship transports/couriers are so much an exception as to be ludicrous.
Why are you worried about exceptions? Exceptions are by definition exceptional, they don't obey the normal rules. Add enough exceptions and anything is possible. Someone on Porozlo wants to hire a combined arms brigade on a multi-million credit dream ticket? What does that have to do with your PC-led leg infantry platoon? (Unless they join that brigade!)
I'm also still surprised, as Aramis pointed out, that people are still assuming a 21st Century, Blessed West, pace of life and communications in all of this. Remember the jump drive.
You've run the numbers. You know the expenditures and the revenues won't cover them. The books don't balance unless you add other factors. Like units not normally staying at full strength between jobs. Like units not normally owning a lot of heavy equipment. Like units existing at the center of a web of patron-client relationships. Like units being 'subsidized' with information, equipment, or money by those patrons in return for future consideration.
The 'Slammers' and 'Legions' we're busily discussing here are the exception in the merc business. They're wholly owned subsidiaries of large corporations or governments. They have little or nothing to do with your players.
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
It's interesting how this discussion keeps returning to the exceptions and the extremes; big permanent units with grav tanks, APCs, and lots of heavy equipment.
Does anyone seriously think those units are the norm? That they aren't 1 in 100 or 1 in 500? That Broadsword is a freak?
Does anyone seriously think those types of units work as independents? That they own themselves? That they don't belong to some larger organization like a government or coproration who rents them out for combat experience?
You've all run the numbers. Tanks, APCs, starship transports (score a luagh point), it all adds up to unsupportable costs. The buy-in is too high. The maintenance between tickets is too high. The payroll is too high. Bankers aren't going to loan to mercs. Venture capital types are going to loan for specific operations only and not long term survival. The ticket earnings won't even cover a fraction of the costs associated with your Traveller-ized Hammer's Slammer or Falkenburg's Legion.
Pororzlo is an exception. Large permenent units with hefty TO&Es are the exception. Units with their own starship transports/couriers are so much an exception as to be ludicrous.
Why are you worried about exceptions? Exceptions are by definition exceptional, they don't obey the normal rules. Add enough exceptions and anything is possible. Someone on Porozlo wants to hire a combined arms brigade on a multi-million credit dream ticket? What does that have to do with your PC-led leg infantry platoon? (Unless they join that brigade!)
I'm also still surprised, as Aramis pointed out, that people are still assuming a 21st Century, Blessed West, pace of life and communications in all of this. Remember the jump drive.
You've run the numbers. You know the expenditures and the revenues won't cover them. The books don't balance unless you add other factors. Like units not normally staying at full strength between jobs. Like units not normally owning a lot of heavy equipment. Like units existing at the center of a web of patron-client relationships. Like units being 'subsidized' with information, equipment, or money by those patrons in return for future consideration.
The 'Slammers' and 'Legions' we're busily discussing here are the exception in the merc business. They're wholly owned subsidiaries of large corporations or governments. They have little or nothing to do with your players.
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 9th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Bill Units not staying at full strength in personnel makes no economic difference. The payroll of a Mercenary unit is by far it's smallest expenditure. Second even if a company only has 2-4 tanks those tanks have to be accounted for in terms of expenses.
Small arms ammunition expenditure costs more than salary. And I am talking about large units, because there are tickets for such units. Normally I would think that player characters are, if they are running a Merc Unit, dealing at the Platoon or Company Level. But the economics has to work at the higher levels as well. This is background material not that the characters are going to deal at that level, except perhaps as members of a Platoon that belongs to a Battalion or Regiment. However they could deal at that level. After all they could be the Battalion command staff and make the decisions at that level and leave the actual combat to a more abstract level. (Makes a decent alternate campaign type.)
Now communication is at the speed of Jump. No doubt. Absolutely. But the tickets are virtually all written we need Mercs now. Taking an additional 4 weeks to recruit and train for the ticket and it is going to someone else. Take three weeks to arrange transportation and someone else will beat you to it. You have to know where the jobs are and get to them. For that in Traveller you need starships. Because you can't pick up a phone and call a fleet of cabs, or get on the Internet and make flight reservations and buy tickets for 150 guys leaving within the week, from some backwater to another backwater. That isn't a large unit, that is a Company. the issue isn't that they can't get the unit there any faster than communication, which is the speed of Jump. However any smart operator is going to want to keep the time from the point that the Patron decides that they want a Merc unit, until the time they get a Merc Unit to an absolute minimum. That means being able to leave right now. that means being able to deploy within 24 hours of getting notified. Once enroute you can do some limited training with simulators, but live fire training is out until you are on the ground. Also remember that the map isn't the ground. the sooner you get there the sooner you can actually assess the situation. With luck you have already had an agent there preparing your intelligence reports and situation reports so you have better information. Following my model of having agents of the Mercenary unit out drumming up business using a Courier (Perhaps have a couple of Surplus Type-S for your agents, (Hire Detached duty Scouts for your Liaison people, it cuts expenses and they generally have the people skills and the Intelligence skills to do the job right. smile.gif )
Keeping a Company in bullets, especially if the local TL is too low to produce ammo for your weapons is going to require supply runs to someplace that can produce your ammo. You want to rely on commercial shipping that will deliver to the starport, or worse to orbit? How do you get it to you in the field? If it can be produced locally, how do I get it out to the field site? The most efficient way is to have a Mercenary Cruiser making the supply runs with specially designed small craft dropping off the supplies directly to the unit, even under fire.
The same holds true for a Platoon but on a smaller scale. Though a Platoon typically needs more support than a Company because they typically have less organic assets. A Mercenary Company should probably be the smallest independent unit fielded. A Platoon is too small to have the assets for a combined arms approach. A Company is to small for sustained operations but at least you can, with a company 3 line platoons, a Platoon of tanks and 2-4 artillery pieces and the Headquarters element can be enlarged so you can have essential support elements and you are within normal span of control for a military unit. You can ditch the armor and have 4 infantry platoons and the artillery section and actually maneuver. With one platoon you are seriously limited on how to maneuver. What do you suggest, 3 squads, a tank, a mortar, a medic and a mechanic? smile.gif
Small arms ammunition expenditure costs more than salary. And I am talking about large units, because there are tickets for such units. Normally I would think that player characters are, if they are running a Merc Unit, dealing at the Platoon or Company Level. But the economics has to work at the higher levels as well. This is background material not that the characters are going to deal at that level, except perhaps as members of a Platoon that belongs to a Battalion or Regiment. However they could deal at that level. After all they could be the Battalion command staff and make the decisions at that level and leave the actual combat to a more abstract level. (Makes a decent alternate campaign type.)
Now communication is at the speed of Jump. No doubt. Absolutely. But the tickets are virtually all written we need Mercs now. Taking an additional 4 weeks to recruit and train for the ticket and it is going to someone else. Take three weeks to arrange transportation and someone else will beat you to it. You have to know where the jobs are and get to them. For that in Traveller you need starships. Because you can't pick up a phone and call a fleet of cabs, or get on the Internet and make flight reservations and buy tickets for 150 guys leaving within the week, from some backwater to another backwater. That isn't a large unit, that is a Company. the issue isn't that they can't get the unit there any faster than communication, which is the speed of Jump. However any smart operator is going to want to keep the time from the point that the Patron decides that they want a Merc unit, until the time they get a Merc Unit to an absolute minimum. That means being able to leave right now. that means being able to deploy within 24 hours of getting notified. Once enroute you can do some limited training with simulators, but live fire training is out until you are on the ground. Also remember that the map isn't the ground. the sooner you get there the sooner you can actually assess the situation. With luck you have already had an agent there preparing your intelligence reports and situation reports so you have better information. Following my model of having agents of the Mercenary unit out drumming up business using a Courier (Perhaps have a couple of Surplus Type-S for your agents, (Hire Detached duty Scouts for your Liaison people, it cuts expenses and they generally have the people skills and the Intelligence skills to do the job right. smile.gif )
Keeping a Company in bullets, especially if the local TL is too low to produce ammo for your weapons is going to require supply runs to someplace that can produce your ammo. You want to rely on commercial shipping that will deliver to the starport, or worse to orbit? How do you get it to you in the field? If it can be produced locally, how do I get it out to the field site? The most efficient way is to have a Mercenary Cruiser making the supply runs with specially designed small craft dropping off the supplies directly to the unit, even under fire.
The same holds true for a Platoon but on a smaller scale. Though a Platoon typically needs more support than a Company because they typically have less organic assets. A Mercenary Company should probably be the smallest independent unit fielded. A Platoon is too small to have the assets for a combined arms approach. A Company is to small for sustained operations but at least you can, with a company 3 line platoons, a Platoon of tanks and 2-4 artillery pieces and the Headquarters element can be enlarged so you can have essential support elements and you are within normal span of control for a military unit. You can ditch the armor and have 4 infantry platoons and the artillery section and actually maneuver. With one platoon you are seriously limited on how to maneuver. What do you suggest, 3 squads, a tank, a mortar, a medic and a mechanic? smile.gif
Piper
December 9th, 2006, 09:01 PM
We have a catalog (of sorts) of some of the large mercenary units operating in the Marches in the counter mix for Fifth Frontier War.
TL14 mech division
TL12 lift brigade
TL14 lift cav regiment
7 assorted battalions from TL12 to TL15
I realize that FFW is only considered "canon" when it suits people to do so, but in this case, I'm okay with that. ;)
These units are all "exceptions".
I'm okay with that, too. Traveller is about ordinary people in extraordinary situations.
The numbers don't support expensive units.
Change the numbers. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, price=cost+profit. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the value of the objective to the client. What is control of a nation, continent or planet worth?
Ticket "X" doesn't work.
Review your assumptions. Start by assuming that the ticket is winnable. Does it actually require grav vehicles? Tracks and wheels are cheaper. COACC designed aircraft are cheap and the rules are very liberal about multi environment operation.
Stretch, pull and twist every open angle in the ticket to fit it to your players and your style. It's a challenge, but it's one of the most rewarding parts of refereeing Traveller military campaigns.
"You can't do that" is a phrase that should be used with caution when discussing science fiction.
TL14 mech division
TL12 lift brigade
TL14 lift cav regiment
7 assorted battalions from TL12 to TL15
I realize that FFW is only considered "canon" when it suits people to do so, but in this case, I'm okay with that. ;)
These units are all "exceptions".
I'm okay with that, too. Traveller is about ordinary people in extraordinary situations.
The numbers don't support expensive units.
Change the numbers. As has been mentioned several times in this thread, price=cost+profit. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the value of the objective to the client. What is control of a nation, continent or planet worth?
Ticket "X" doesn't work.
Review your assumptions. Start by assuming that the ticket is winnable. Does it actually require grav vehicles? Tracks and wheels are cheaper. COACC designed aircraft are cheap and the rules are very liberal about multi environment operation.
Stretch, pull and twist every open angle in the ticket to fit it to your players and your style. It's a challenge, but it's one of the most rewarding parts of refereeing Traveller military campaigns.
"You can't do that" is a phrase that should be used with caution when discussing science fiction.
Spiderfish
December 9th, 2006, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys. </font>[/QUOTE]The Gurkha Brigade is technically Mercenaries as well, which is why I thought you meant them. smile.gif
</font>[/QUOTE]Technically mercenaries? Where did you get that from?
Technically they are soldiers in the Army.
They are certainly not "mercenaries" in the context of this discussion or as defined by the Geneva Convention. If you disagree with this feel free to raise it with the MoD.
It's interesting how this discussion keeps returning to the exceptions and the extremes; big permanent units with grav tanks, APCs, and lots of heavy equipment. Whats more interesting is the fact that for the most part the good members seem to assume that all of these contractors will be "units", that the corporation will consist of a self contained fighting unit.
It seems more likely the business will be one which puts units together to fufill specific missions.
You've all run the numbers. Tanks, APCs, starship transports (score a luagh point), it all adds up to unsupportable costs. Only if you assume the unit is the business rather than something it sets up for a mission.
In the case of a battalion existing as a self contained business your correct. But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.
And if they have based themselves at a transport hub, chartering transport shouldn't be that difficult. Perhaps they have a deal with a shipping company to allow them to charter ships at short notice.
Here is an example of a real world PMC.
http://www.erinysinternational.com/
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Actually I think "Queen Elizabeth's Own Gurkha Rifles" and the rest of the Gurkha Brigade is a bit more than Security Guards. They have a history that is proud, long, extensive and extremely distinguished.
You missed Wackenhut and Global Security, two of the biggest. smile.gif no it appears GSG is something seperate they worked in liberia most recently...so not the
same guys. </font>[/QUOTE]The Gurkha Brigade is technically Mercenaries as well, which is why I thought you meant them. smile.gif
</font>[/QUOTE]Technically mercenaries? Where did you get that from?
Technically they are soldiers in the Army.
They are certainly not "mercenaries" in the context of this discussion or as defined by the Geneva Convention. If you disagree with this feel free to raise it with the MoD.
It's interesting how this discussion keeps returning to the exceptions and the extremes; big permanent units with grav tanks, APCs, and lots of heavy equipment. Whats more interesting is the fact that for the most part the good members seem to assume that all of these contractors will be "units", that the corporation will consist of a self contained fighting unit.
It seems more likely the business will be one which puts units together to fufill specific missions.
You've all run the numbers. Tanks, APCs, starship transports (score a luagh point), it all adds up to unsupportable costs. Only if you assume the unit is the business rather than something it sets up for a mission.
In the case of a battalion existing as a self contained business your correct. But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.
And if they have based themselves at a transport hub, chartering transport shouldn't be that difficult. Perhaps they have a deal with a shipping company to allow them to charter ships at short notice.
Here is an example of a real world PMC.
http://www.erinysinternational.com/
Whipsnade
December 9th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
However any smart operator is going to want to keep the time from the point that the Patron decides that they want a Merc unit, until the time they get a Merc Unit to an absolute minimum. That means being able to leave right now. that means being able to deploy within 24 hours of getting notified.Bruce,
If the unit isn't already in the system the check won't clear in 24 hours.
As I posted up thread, the smart operators aren't sitting around with a mechanized company waiting for a check and a x-boat message to go to Arglebargle-IX. The truly smart operators are on Argelbargle-IX already with a unit they put together on the strength of rumors, inside information, and a thousand other hints that Arglebargle-IX might very well be in the merc market.
They heard that a unit of certain size with certain abilities might be able to find work on Arglebargle-IX soon. So they put such a unit together on Arglebargle-IX.
the sooner you get there the sooner you can actually assess the situation. With luck you have already had an agent there preparing your intelligence reports and situation reports so you have better information.Precisely. What you're failing to realise is that the unit's agents or advance party has been on the ground assessing the situation well before the ticket is let and that most of the unit is on the scene before the contract is signed. That's where all the patrons and favors I've been talking about come into place. The smart operators get the job because they are already there and not because they own their own ships that can get them there in 3 or 4 weeks.
Following my model of having agents of the Mercenary unit out drumming up business...Your model? Sure. What do you think all my blathering about patrons, advance parties, favors, and the rest has been about?
And why waste a scout/courier on your advance party when they can travel like anyone else? They aren't an armed unit after all.
Keeping a Company in bullets, especially if the local TL is too low to produce ammo for your weapons is going to require supply runs to someplace that can produce your ammo.That's been handled in the real world for thousands of years now. You either fight with what you brought, build up stockpiles, arrange for local supply, or a mixture of all three. You think the tommygunners in Biafra didn't use strict fire discipline? .45 ACP isn't something that can be scrounged up in Nigeria.
You want to rely on commercial shipping that will deliver to the starport, or worse to orbit? How do you get it to you in the field? If it can be produced locally, how do I get it out to the field site?How did the unit get on scene? Why can't it's supplies travel the same way? Are we talking about months of combat or days? It all depends.
The most efficient way is to have a Mercenary Cruiser making the supply runs with specially designed small craft dropping off the supplies directly to the unit, even under fire.Score a laugh point. Wasting a cutter on ammo runs? All the fungibles still must be stockpiled somewhere in the system or your merc crusier is looking at a two week trip. Hey, Broadsword we need some more ACR ammo. Right-o, we'll be back in two week, okay?
You fight with what you brought and if you run out you didn't plan properly. Better make do with local supplies then.
A Company is to small for sustained operations...What sustained operations? If the ticket is a long term one, you've planned on it. Look again at LBB:4:
Striker:Marastan - You'll be fighting for only 90 days until the IISS survey vessel arrives and you'll have LSP logistical support.
Commando:Porozlo - You've got hold the mineheads for two days. You'll either be relieved by then or withdrawn. Again, off-world companies are picking up the tab.
Security:Jokotre - You'll be using ATVs on a 800 mile round trip. At 60 kph, that's just under 22 hours travel time. Factor in three days for the religious mumbo-jumbo and you're looking at a five day ticket.
Cadre:Aramis - You're training and leading local troops to fight with local weapons.
Dream:Aramanx - You're part of a national offensive bankrolled by Sternmetal Horizons. This ticket will be lengthy, but you've got the credits and time to order and stockpile what you need. Again, if you plan wrong your employers are going to be upset.
What do you suggest, 3 squads, a tank, a mortar, a medic and a mechanic?Oddly enough that is almost exactly what Broadsword fields. There are a few more medics and no mechanics though.
Have fun,
Bill
However any smart operator is going to want to keep the time from the point that the Patron decides that they want a Merc unit, until the time they get a Merc Unit to an absolute minimum. That means being able to leave right now. that means being able to deploy within 24 hours of getting notified.Bruce,
If the unit isn't already in the system the check won't clear in 24 hours.
As I posted up thread, the smart operators aren't sitting around with a mechanized company waiting for a check and a x-boat message to go to Arglebargle-IX. The truly smart operators are on Argelbargle-IX already with a unit they put together on the strength of rumors, inside information, and a thousand other hints that Arglebargle-IX might very well be in the merc market.
They heard that a unit of certain size with certain abilities might be able to find work on Arglebargle-IX soon. So they put such a unit together on Arglebargle-IX.
the sooner you get there the sooner you can actually assess the situation. With luck you have already had an agent there preparing your intelligence reports and situation reports so you have better information.Precisely. What you're failing to realise is that the unit's agents or advance party has been on the ground assessing the situation well before the ticket is let and that most of the unit is on the scene before the contract is signed. That's where all the patrons and favors I've been talking about come into place. The smart operators get the job because they are already there and not because they own their own ships that can get them there in 3 or 4 weeks.
Following my model of having agents of the Mercenary unit out drumming up business...Your model? Sure. What do you think all my blathering about patrons, advance parties, favors, and the rest has been about?
And why waste a scout/courier on your advance party when they can travel like anyone else? They aren't an armed unit after all.
Keeping a Company in bullets, especially if the local TL is too low to produce ammo for your weapons is going to require supply runs to someplace that can produce your ammo.That's been handled in the real world for thousands of years now. You either fight with what you brought, build up stockpiles, arrange for local supply, or a mixture of all three. You think the tommygunners in Biafra didn't use strict fire discipline? .45 ACP isn't something that can be scrounged up in Nigeria.
You want to rely on commercial shipping that will deliver to the starport, or worse to orbit? How do you get it to you in the field? If it can be produced locally, how do I get it out to the field site?How did the unit get on scene? Why can't it's supplies travel the same way? Are we talking about months of combat or days? It all depends.
The most efficient way is to have a Mercenary Cruiser making the supply runs with specially designed small craft dropping off the supplies directly to the unit, even under fire.Score a laugh point. Wasting a cutter on ammo runs? All the fungibles still must be stockpiled somewhere in the system or your merc crusier is looking at a two week trip. Hey, Broadsword we need some more ACR ammo. Right-o, we'll be back in two week, okay?
You fight with what you brought and if you run out you didn't plan properly. Better make do with local supplies then.
A Company is to small for sustained operations...What sustained operations? If the ticket is a long term one, you've planned on it. Look again at LBB:4:
Striker:Marastan - You'll be fighting for only 90 days until the IISS survey vessel arrives and you'll have LSP logistical support.
Commando:Porozlo - You've got hold the mineheads for two days. You'll either be relieved by then or withdrawn. Again, off-world companies are picking up the tab.
Security:Jokotre - You'll be using ATVs on a 800 mile round trip. At 60 kph, that's just under 22 hours travel time. Factor in three days for the religious mumbo-jumbo and you're looking at a five day ticket.
Cadre:Aramis - You're training and leading local troops to fight with local weapons.
Dream:Aramanx - You're part of a national offensive bankrolled by Sternmetal Horizons. This ticket will be lengthy, but you've got the credits and time to order and stockpile what you need. Again, if you plan wrong your employers are going to be upset.
What do you suggest, 3 squads, a tank, a mortar, a medic and a mechanic?Oddly enough that is almost exactly what Broadsword fields. There are a few more medics and no mechanics though.
Have fun,
Bill
Whipsnade
December 9th, 2006, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by Piper:
We have a catalog (of sorts) of some of the large mercenary units operating in the Marches in the counter mix for Fifth Frontier War.Piper,
There are such units in Invasion:Earth too. They're described as amalgamated units. The Imperium hired large numbers of mercs and then formed them into divisions, brigades, and so forth. There wasn't a merc division sitting around somewhere waiting to be hired.
A few pre-FFW TNS reports and a rumor result in A:1 point to much the same thing. The Imperium was hiring mercs and forming big units for a variety of missions in the pre-war Marches; primairly on Efate.
Have fun,
Bill
We have a catalog (of sorts) of some of the large mercenary units operating in the Marches in the counter mix for Fifth Frontier War.Piper,
There are such units in Invasion:Earth too. They're described as amalgamated units. The Imperium hired large numbers of mercs and then formed them into divisions, brigades, and so forth. There wasn't a merc division sitting around somewhere waiting to be hired.
A few pre-FFW TNS reports and a rumor result in A:1 point to much the same thing. The Imperium was hiring mercs and forming big units for a variety of missions in the pre-war Marches; primairly on Efate.
Have fun,
Bill
Whipsnade
December 9th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.Spiderfish,
Thank you. You explained very succinctly what I've been bleating about for several posts now.
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.
Have fun,
Bill
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.Spiderfish,
Thank you. You explained very succinctly what I've been bleating about for several posts now.
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.
Have fun,
Bill
Black Globe Generator
December 9th, 2006, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.Yep. The Wild Geese and The Dogs of War offer good examples of how merc units are assembled - both movies (and the books on which they are based benefitted from the input of actual merc officers in getting the details right.
The exceptions would be for the far future equivalents of Sandline or Executive Outcomes, with long-term contracts for security tickets and the like - typically not the sorts of situations in which Our Intrepid Heroes are likely to find themselves. ;)
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.Yep. The Wild Geese and The Dogs of War offer good examples of how merc units are assembled - both movies (and the books on which they are based benefitted from the input of actual merc officers in getting the details right.
The exceptions would be for the far future equivalents of Sandline or Executive Outcomes, with long-term contracts for security tickets and the like - typically not the sorts of situations in which Our Intrepid Heroes are likely to find themselves. ;)
Spiderfish
December 10th, 2006, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.Spiderfish,
Thank you. You explained very succinctly what I've been bleating about for several posts now.
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.
Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]And of course if you need us to "kill them like... yesterday!" that will incur our premium rate charge.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.Spiderfish,
Thank you. You explained very succinctly what I've been bleating about for several posts now.
Mercs are more likely to tailor their unit to mission instead of trying to find missions that fit their unit. In this fashion, a merc unit is built and rebuilt for each ticket.
Have fun,
Bill </font>[/QUOTE]And of course if you need us to "kill them like... yesterday!" that will incur our premium rate charge.
sid6.7
December 10th, 2006, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both. I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.
Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.
A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.
All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors. </font>[/QUOTE]it would be better to say 3 times expenses
VS 3 times salaries there is less a chance
of going red then.
I.E my platoon operates with ship on a monthly
expense of 1.4 million my salaries are only in
the 48k range for troops/crew...
3 x expenses is 4.2 million for a ticket
3 x salaries is only about 150k...
this would be a 1 month ticket BTW
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
This thread has lead me to rethink pricing... if a unit can draw a 1 year contract every two years (or equivalent), and can charge triple ongoing expenses plus combat expenditures, it can cover salaries to keep the unit together between tickets. If it's 1:3, they need to make about 4x ongoing expenses... but at that point, they had bloody well better be either better than average troops of the same costs, available sooner than training up one's own, or both. I have no idea how mercenary pricing works, but real world companies generate a total revenue of 3 times salary only. Expenses are subtracted from revenues to generate a final profit in the neighborhood of 10 percent of total revenue. General Motors and runs closer to a 4 percent profit and specialty companies (like carbon fiber frames for racing bicycles) run closer to a 25 percent profit margin.
Obviously, I am painting with a broad brush and applying a thick coat of generalities here, but a Mercenary unit should charge no less than 3 times salaries for a ticket. Total expenses (including salaries) should be no greater than 95 percent of the ticket price for a very large unit with a long-term contract and no greater than 75 percent of the ticket price for a small specialized unit with a short term contract.
A fee of double or triple the total expenses of a ticket would probably represent a short term crisis situation where demand far exceeds supply - like the very early days of personal computers or the cost of transportation at the fall of Saigon.
All of this assumes that a Merc Company is primarily a business, run like any other business - to generate a reasonable profit for the investors. </font>[/QUOTE]it would be better to say 3 times expenses
VS 3 times salaries there is less a chance
of going red then.
I.E my platoon operates with ship on a monthly
expense of 1.4 million my salaries are only in
the 48k range for troops/crew...
3 x expenses is 4.2 million for a ticket
3 x salaries is only about 150k...
this would be a 1 month ticket BTW
sid6.7
December 10th, 2006, 12:53 AM
Here is an example of a real world PMC.
erinys internationalwell lets ask them then.... graemlins/file_23.gif
BING email on the way... graemlins/file_22.gif
hehehhhee really i did!....you think they'll hunt me down as a spy or soemthing? :eek:
erinys internationalwell lets ask them then.... graemlins/file_23.gif
BING email on the way... graemlins/file_22.gif
hehehhhee really i did!....you think they'll hunt me down as a spy or soemthing? :eek:
Icosahedron
December 10th, 2006, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by Spiderfish:
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.I was thinking that if transport is a perennial problem for merc units, surely some enterprising soul will set up some sort of merc transport business? This is the basics of capitalism. Not a hot drop, perhaps, unless a LOT more money crosses the table, but if you plan ahead, how often would a hot drop be necessary? Essentially, we're talking a no-questions-asked charter.
But if the business puts units together they can probably stand for the costs of maintaing some integral transport for those "right now" jobs, though obviously not enough to move every man they have.I was thinking that if transport is a perennial problem for merc units, surely some enterprising soul will set up some sort of merc transport business? This is the basics of capitalism. Not a hot drop, perhaps, unless a LOT more money crosses the table, but if you plan ahead, how often would a hot drop be necessary? Essentially, we're talking a no-questions-asked charter.
Piper
December 10th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
... A few pre-FFW TNS reports and a rumor result in A:1 point to much the same thing. The Imperium was hiring mercs and forming big units for a variety of missions in the pre-war Marches; primairly on Efate.That's precisely the point.
FFW provides a snapshot of mercenary activity in the Marches on the eve of the war. What it doesn't give us is a dynamic picture. Any of those units could be at or near the end of their current contract. There could be any number of immediate opportunities for those units, either whole or divided into smaller constituent elements.
Those "coulds" are the province of the referee.
It's generally faster to ship a battalion than it is to recruit and train one. You're not just shipping hardware, you're shipping skills and experience.
The cost of shipping needs to weighed against the value of the objective to the client (not always reflected in the ticket price).
Personally, I like Hammer's Slammers. Is it really so farfetched to allow a "scale model" of them to run around the Marches?
Your view will, no doubt, differ from mine.
... A few pre-FFW TNS reports and a rumor result in A:1 point to much the same thing. The Imperium was hiring mercs and forming big units for a variety of missions in the pre-war Marches; primairly on Efate.That's precisely the point.
FFW provides a snapshot of mercenary activity in the Marches on the eve of the war. What it doesn't give us is a dynamic picture. Any of those units could be at or near the end of their current contract. There could be any number of immediate opportunities for those units, either whole or divided into smaller constituent elements.
Those "coulds" are the province of the referee.
It's generally faster to ship a battalion than it is to recruit and train one. You're not just shipping hardware, you're shipping skills and experience.
The cost of shipping needs to weighed against the value of the objective to the client (not always reflected in the ticket price).
Personally, I like Hammer's Slammers. Is it really so farfetched to allow a "scale model" of them to run around the Marches?
Your view will, no doubt, differ from mine.
Pickles
December 10th, 2006, 07:55 AM
"Let's just say we'd like to avoid any ... Imperial entanglements ..."
atpollard
December 10th, 2006, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Here is an example of a real world PMC.
erinys internationalwell lets ask them then.... graemlins/file_23.gif
BING email on the way... graemlins/file_22.gif
hehehhhee really i did!....you think they'll hunt me down as a spy or soemthing? :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]They are not likely to hunt you down, but you might be recruited. After all, there are only so many people in the world interested in the logistics of supporting a "Security" Company (Mercenary is such an ugly word). smile.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Here is an example of a real world PMC.
erinys internationalwell lets ask them then.... graemlins/file_23.gif
BING email on the way... graemlins/file_22.gif
hehehhhee really i did!....you think they'll hunt me down as a spy or soemthing? :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]They are not likely to hunt you down, but you might be recruited. After all, there are only so many people in the world interested in the logistics of supporting a "Security" Company (Mercenary is such an ugly word). smile.gif
atpollard
December 10th, 2006, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
it would be better to say 3 times expenses
VS 3 times salaries there is less a chance
of going red then.
I.E my platoon operates with ship on a monthly
expense of 1.4 million my salaries are only in
the 48k range for troops/crew...
3 x expenses is 4.2 million for a ticket
3 x salaries is only about 150k...
this would be a 1 month ticket BTW Three times expenses is probably too high. In the example you gave, the ticket would be 4.2 MCr, the expenses would be 1.4 MCR, so the profit for 1 month of work would be 2.8 MCr. That would leave you dividing half the profit (1.4 MCr) among a group of men who earn only 48 thousand Credits per month. The monthly bonus would be 29 times their salary – Cr 29,000 bonus per Cr 1000 of salary. After 12 months of tickets, each Merc would receive Cr 350,000 per Cr 1000 of salary.
If you set the fee to 1.33 times expenses (expenses = 75 percent of fee), then your 1.4 MCR unit would need a 1.862 MCr monthly ticket to generate a 0.462 MCr profit. Each bonus would still be 4.8 times salary or Cr 4,800 per Cr 1000 of salary. After 12 months of tickets, each Merc would receive Cr 57,750 per Cr 1000 of salary. The hard part is accurately calculating monthly expenses – including ammo and equipment losses.
it would be better to say 3 times expenses
VS 3 times salaries there is less a chance
of going red then.
I.E my platoon operates with ship on a monthly
expense of 1.4 million my salaries are only in
the 48k range for troops/crew...
3 x expenses is 4.2 million for a ticket
3 x salaries is only about 150k...
this would be a 1 month ticket BTW Three times expenses is probably too high. In the example you gave, the ticket would be 4.2 MCr, the expenses would be 1.4 MCR, so the profit for 1 month of work would be 2.8 MCr. That would leave you dividing half the profit (1.4 MCr) among a group of men who earn only 48 thousand Credits per month. The monthly bonus would be 29 times their salary – Cr 29,000 bonus per Cr 1000 of salary. After 12 months of tickets, each Merc would receive Cr 350,000 per Cr 1000 of salary.
If you set the fee to 1.33 times expenses (expenses = 75 percent of fee), then your 1.4 MCR unit would need a 1.862 MCr monthly ticket to generate a 0.462 MCr profit. Each bonus would still be 4.8 times salary or Cr 4,800 per Cr 1000 of salary. After 12 months of tickets, each Merc would receive Cr 57,750 per Cr 1000 of salary. The hard part is accurately calculating monthly expenses – including ammo and equipment losses.
sid6.7
December 10th, 2006, 07:04 PM
so at 500,000k that would be
250k to the co. and 250k to the
men? i'd say we take it closer
to 2x or 1.75 as an average
for a large ticket. if my platoon
lost thier AFV i'd be broke.... :(
i'd be broke with a 4.2m ticket
too for that matter.... :(
so it might be better for a merc company
to work with infantry and make your cleint
pay for vehicles i would think...or
with god mode on..have the ticket meet
the costs of at least SOME of the veh.
ammo truely is a hard part to fig'r
during a merc ticket would you
have a firefight per day? twice
per day? ALL DAY every day?
for gaming purposes i would hope
the GM would keep it to 3-4
exchanges for the whole ticket
is that too much? not enough?
to give realistic play?
so with an SAS load of 400-600rounds
per arm X 3 or 4? 1800-2400 rnds?
for my platoon that would be 100k
for a 1 complete load for all my
men and hvy weapons and veh.
or are we taking the canon tickets
in LBB4 too seriously and they
should be just considered some
quicky examples VS hard rules...(my opinion)
im gonna do a quick run thru for 2 tickets
with the first one being 3 engagments and
10% damage to equip. + recuiting new troops
after losses...the 2nd one i'll run through
with a complete loss of 1 of my veh. plus
all the rest + 2 more eng. and see what i end
up with...VS 1.38 1.5 1.75 and 2...
(2)6 month tickets
250k to the co. and 250k to the
men? i'd say we take it closer
to 2x or 1.75 as an average
for a large ticket. if my platoon
lost thier AFV i'd be broke.... :(
i'd be broke with a 4.2m ticket
too for that matter.... :(
so it might be better for a merc company
to work with infantry and make your cleint
pay for vehicles i would think...or
with god mode on..have the ticket meet
the costs of at least SOME of the veh.
ammo truely is a hard part to fig'r
during a merc ticket would you
have a firefight per day? twice
per day? ALL DAY every day?
for gaming purposes i would hope
the GM would keep it to 3-4
exchanges for the whole ticket
is that too much? not enough?
to give realistic play?
so with an SAS load of 400-600rounds
per arm X 3 or 4? 1800-2400 rnds?
for my platoon that would be 100k
for a 1 complete load for all my
men and hvy weapons and veh.
or are we taking the canon tickets
in LBB4 too seriously and they
should be just considered some
quicky examples VS hard rules...(my opinion)
im gonna do a quick run thru for 2 tickets
with the first one being 3 engagments and
10% damage to equip. + recuiting new troops
after losses...the 2nd one i'll run through
with a complete loss of 1 of my veh. plus
all the rest + 2 more eng. and see what i end
up with...VS 1.38 1.5 1.75 and 2...
(2)6 month tickets
BetterThanLife
December 10th, 2006, 07:21 PM
The number of engagements and amount of ammo expended would depend on the type of Ticket. For a quick in and out raid, one basic load should suffice. For a Security Mission you wouldn't expect to go through more than 2 or 3 basic loads per week. For a Cadre Mission you are going through ammo for live fire but that is generally paid for by the client. For a Striker Mission where you are Point for the client's army and expected to be where the action is probably between 2 basic loads per day and 1 basic load per 2 days. That take and hold Commando Mission, I figure 4-6 basic loads of ammo.
BetterThanLife
December 10th, 2006, 07:58 PM
Bill,
Since the payroll of a Mercenary unit is so low, when not in combat, there is little incentive to break the unit up. Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions. (These canon units are mostly Platoon sized but one is a Regiment.) They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7), CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword, the Tlehekoi Regiment (However that is spelled.) and the Caledon Highlanders Both from FASA's Aslan Mercenary Cruisers.
Now I am not saying some units won't break up. But the evidence implies that units stay together. YMMV.
Since the payroll of a Mercenary unit is so low, when not in combat, there is little incentive to break the unit up. Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions. (These canon units are mostly Platoon sized but one is a Regiment.) They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7), CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword, the Tlehekoi Regiment (However that is spelled.) and the Caledon Highlanders Both from FASA's Aslan Mercenary Cruisers.
Now I am not saying some units won't break up. But the evidence implies that units stay together. YMMV.
Whipsnade
December 10th, 2006, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by Piper:
Any of those units could be at or near the end of their current contract. There could be any number of immediate opportunities for those units, either whole or divided into smaller constituent elements.Piper,
What you've failed to realise is that none of those large units existed prior to the Imperium creating them for the Efate ticket. And none of those large units will exist after the Efate ticket is completed.
The Imperium either directly or indirectly gathered up various odd and sods to create the merc regiments and brigades engaged on Efate. They even; as A:1 shows, hired individual mercs. They stitched together individuals, squads, platoons, and even the random company. The units didn't exist until the ticket did.
Seeing as the mercs are operating in larger formations, it is more than likely that they're not using much of their own equipment either. For logistic reasons the Imperium most likely issued all new kit, kit that will be turned back in after the conflict.
When the ticket is over, all these units will split up into the much smaller elements that made them up; individuals, squads, platoons, and some companies.
It's generally faster to ship a battalion than it is to recruit and train one. You're not just shipping hardware, you're shipping skills and experience.It is IF the battalion exists in the first place. It's also faster to have a 'contractor' already on the ground in your system let you know he has most of a battalion immediately available if you're thinking about hiring mercs.
And why does eveyone keep harping on training? You're hiring mercs in the first place because they are already trained.
Personally, I like Hammer's Slammers. Is it really so farfetched to allow a "scale model" of them to run around the Marches?I like the Slammers too. They also exist in a much different universe than the OTU: FTL travel is much faster and cheaper, there's FTL comms, loads of independent planets with few multi-planet polities. In the afterword of the Slammers first book, Drake explains why the merc trade arose in his setting and then explains how the mercs eventually put themselves out of business. Even in Drakes' universe, the mercs don't last long. I like Hornblower too, but I'm not going to twist to precepts of the OTU in order to fit him in it.
Can there be a Slammers-type outfit in the Marches? Sure. It most likely belongs to someone else, is heavily subsidized, and only works in carefully vetted tickets. Can there be a truly independent Slammers-type outfit in the Marches that manages to stay near full strength, travels as a unit, and pays all the bills from the money it earns? You seen the figures and the figures say no.
Have fun,
Bill
Any of those units could be at or near the end of their current contract. There could be any number of immediate opportunities for those units, either whole or divided into smaller constituent elements.Piper,
What you've failed to realise is that none of those large units existed prior to the Imperium creating them for the Efate ticket. And none of those large units will exist after the Efate ticket is completed.
The Imperium either directly or indirectly gathered up various odd and sods to create the merc regiments and brigades engaged on Efate. They even; as A:1 shows, hired individual mercs. They stitched together individuals, squads, platoons, and even the random company. The units didn't exist until the ticket did.
Seeing as the mercs are operating in larger formations, it is more than likely that they're not using much of their own equipment either. For logistic reasons the Imperium most likely issued all new kit, kit that will be turned back in after the conflict.
When the ticket is over, all these units will split up into the much smaller elements that made them up; individuals, squads, platoons, and some companies.
It's generally faster to ship a battalion than it is to recruit and train one. You're not just shipping hardware, you're shipping skills and experience.It is IF the battalion exists in the first place. It's also faster to have a 'contractor' already on the ground in your system let you know he has most of a battalion immediately available if you're thinking about hiring mercs.
And why does eveyone keep harping on training? You're hiring mercs in the first place because they are already trained.
Personally, I like Hammer's Slammers. Is it really so farfetched to allow a "scale model" of them to run around the Marches?I like the Slammers too. They also exist in a much different universe than the OTU: FTL travel is much faster and cheaper, there's FTL comms, loads of independent planets with few multi-planet polities. In the afterword of the Slammers first book, Drake explains why the merc trade arose in his setting and then explains how the mercs eventually put themselves out of business. Even in Drakes' universe, the mercs don't last long. I like Hornblower too, but I'm not going to twist to precepts of the OTU in order to fit him in it.
Can there be a Slammers-type outfit in the Marches? Sure. It most likely belongs to someone else, is heavily subsidized, and only works in carefully vetted tickets. Can there be a truly independent Slammers-type outfit in the Marches that manages to stay near full strength, travels as a unit, and pays all the bills from the money it earns? You seen the figures and the figures say no.
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 10th, 2006, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
It is IF the battalion exists in the first place. It's also faster to have a 'contractor' already on the ground in your system let you know he has most of a battalion immediately available if you're thinking about hiring mercs.
And why does eveyone keep harping on training? You're hiring mercs in the first place because they are already trained. But not trained to how you expect to operate. Yes they are trained with Basic Marksman skills. But can they even use the equipment you have? Especially if you are going to do your recruiting on site on a TL 5 or 6 world (which is the majority of the published tickets) when you are using a TL9-TL12 unit. Secondly recruiting isn't all that efficient in Traveller. Population Code -4 for number of dice for raw recruits (Who don't even count as mercenaries and have to start with Basic Training.) Population code -5 for Veterans. Population Code -6 for Veteran Officers and Mercenaries. That is per week. Now if you have 20 guys as your core group and you need to field a company of 150, if you have 5 recruiters with a skill of 4 and 5 with a recruiting skill of 3(Or equivalent for other rule systems.) and you are on a Population 9 world (Good luck with that.) You can recruit a maximum of 32 "Mercenaries" per 2 weeks. Stastically you are getting 25.5 per week. It will take you 10-12 weeks to get you to 150 men. Forget about putting together a Battalion, even if you start with a full company. If you settle for veterans and Mercenaries then you can reduce that to about 6 weeks on a Population 9 planet. Less than 10% of the Imperium is Pop9+.
Recruit onsite or as needed is impractical. (And normal salaries are set up to encourage keeping the unit together and getting them into action.)
Can there be a Slammers-type outfit in the Marches? Sure. It most likely belongs to someone else, is heavily subsidized, and only works in carefully vetted tickets. Can there be a truly independent Slammers-type outfit in the Marches that manages to stay near full strength, travels as a unit, and pays all the bills from the money it earns? You seen the figures and the figures say no.Or it is a long serving successful unit that has paid off its initial debts and is now independent of outside influence. (Tlekhoi Regiment.) The economics of the system have to allow that to happen.
It is IF the battalion exists in the first place. It's also faster to have a 'contractor' already on the ground in your system let you know he has most of a battalion immediately available if you're thinking about hiring mercs.
And why does eveyone keep harping on training? You're hiring mercs in the first place because they are already trained. But not trained to how you expect to operate. Yes they are trained with Basic Marksman skills. But can they even use the equipment you have? Especially if you are going to do your recruiting on site on a TL 5 or 6 world (which is the majority of the published tickets) when you are using a TL9-TL12 unit. Secondly recruiting isn't all that efficient in Traveller. Population Code -4 for number of dice for raw recruits (Who don't even count as mercenaries and have to start with Basic Training.) Population code -5 for Veterans. Population Code -6 for Veteran Officers and Mercenaries. That is per week. Now if you have 20 guys as your core group and you need to field a company of 150, if you have 5 recruiters with a skill of 4 and 5 with a recruiting skill of 3(Or equivalent for other rule systems.) and you are on a Population 9 world (Good luck with that.) You can recruit a maximum of 32 "Mercenaries" per 2 weeks. Stastically you are getting 25.5 per week. It will take you 10-12 weeks to get you to 150 men. Forget about putting together a Battalion, even if you start with a full company. If you settle for veterans and Mercenaries then you can reduce that to about 6 weeks on a Population 9 planet. Less than 10% of the Imperium is Pop9+.
Recruit onsite or as needed is impractical. (And normal salaries are set up to encourage keeping the unit together and getting them into action.)
Can there be a Slammers-type outfit in the Marches? Sure. It most likely belongs to someone else, is heavily subsidized, and only works in carefully vetted tickets. Can there be a truly independent Slammers-type outfit in the Marches that manages to stay near full strength, travels as a unit, and pays all the bills from the money it earns? You seen the figures and the figures say no.Or it is a long serving successful unit that has paid off its initial debts and is now independent of outside influence. (Tlekhoi Regiment.) The economics of the system have to allow that to happen.
Whipsnade
December 10th, 2006, 11:21 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Since the payroll of a Mercenary unit is so low, when not in combat, there is little incentive to break the unit up.Bruce,
It's more than just the payroll. Did you miss the quote up thread about Instellarms having agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over.?
When you 'downsize' after a ticket you get rid of equipment too. That means cash in hand.
Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions.I have canon examples of jump message torpedoes too, but go ahead.
(These canon units are mostly Platoon sized... As I've been stressing all along. The smaller a unit is the more likely it is permenent.
...but one is a Regiment.)Which is most likely subsidized in some fashion by another party.
They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7)...In T20's Mileau:1000, the Imperium is fighting the Rim War. That has siphoned off Imperial assets from the Gateway region. The Imperium is helping planetary and sub-planetary governments hire mercs to fill the gap left by Imperial redeployments. What's more, nothing is said in either EA about how long the units in question have existed prior to the tickets presented in the EAs.
... CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword...We know nothing about the actual owners of Broadsword. The players take role of ship's crew or troopers as the scenarios change. Nothing is stated about the business end of the Broadsword operation. It could very well be wholly owned by a larger organization or subsidized in the various manners I've been suggesting.
...the Tlehekoi Regiment...Which was subsidized into existence by a clan and whose long term survival at its present size is not assured.
...and the Caledon Highlanders......and which is subsidized by the Principality of Caledon.
Now I am not saying some units won't break up.Just so you underastand me more clearly. I'm not saying all units break up all the time. I am saying that the larger a unit is and the more expensive it's TO&E, the more likely it is not permanent. And that, if it is permanent, it is not independent.
But the evidence implies that units stay together.As you can read above, your 'evidence' is little of the sort.
Let's return to the beginning. In the fifth post in this thread, Flykiller calculated that the 'buy-in' for a single company of TL7 mechanized infantry was 5.3 MCr and that the annual upkeep for such a unit was 3.9 MCr. Run those costs past the fees for canonical tickets available to us and please explain to us how:
A - Someone can afford to put together a merc company in the first place. And...
2 - How they manage to meet their monthly payments whether they are on a ticket or not.
This is at TL7 mind you. No wholly owned starship transports, no advance parties aboard their own scout/couriers, no fancy TO&Es full of pricey equipment, none of that. Just a vanilla, barebones, mech infantry company with nary an air/raft. Four million credits a month.
You've said that banks won't lend to them, that business must see a safer return on it's money than mercs can provide, that rich people won't throw money away. Your ideas about a unit's activity 'cycle' failed to take into account Traveller's comm lag. You insist that units stay together despite real world experience and monetary evidence. You even insist that units move themselves despite the amazing cost of the starships involved.
You've closed the door on all sorts of funding mechanisms; like 'venture capital', subsidies, and patron-client relationships. You insist that units don't try and economize on expenses; like drawing down force levels between paying jobs. You've even added substantially to the 'buy-in' and maintenance costs involved by insisting that units own ships. How can the books ever balance?
So where does all the money come from? All the money that is needed to keep those large merc units with all their hi-tech toys permanently together? Are all the ticket prices low by an order of magnitude?
Show us the money, Bruce, and we'll believe you.
Have fun,
Bill
Since the payroll of a Mercenary unit is so low, when not in combat, there is little incentive to break the unit up.Bruce,
It's more than just the payroll. Did you miss the quote up thread about Instellarms having agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over.?
When you 'downsize' after a ticket you get rid of equipment too. That means cash in hand.
Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions.I have canon examples of jump message torpedoes too, but go ahead.
(These canon units are mostly Platoon sized... As I've been stressing all along. The smaller a unit is the more likely it is permenent.
...but one is a Regiment.)Which is most likely subsidized in some fashion by another party.
They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7)...In T20's Mileau:1000, the Imperium is fighting the Rim War. That has siphoned off Imperial assets from the Gateway region. The Imperium is helping planetary and sub-planetary governments hire mercs to fill the gap left by Imperial redeployments. What's more, nothing is said in either EA about how long the units in question have existed prior to the tickets presented in the EAs.
... CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword...We know nothing about the actual owners of Broadsword. The players take role of ship's crew or troopers as the scenarios change. Nothing is stated about the business end of the Broadsword operation. It could very well be wholly owned by a larger organization or subsidized in the various manners I've been suggesting.
...the Tlehekoi Regiment...Which was subsidized into existence by a clan and whose long term survival at its present size is not assured.
...and the Caledon Highlanders......and which is subsidized by the Principality of Caledon.
Now I am not saying some units won't break up.Just so you underastand me more clearly. I'm not saying all units break up all the time. I am saying that the larger a unit is and the more expensive it's TO&E, the more likely it is not permanent. And that, if it is permanent, it is not independent.
But the evidence implies that units stay together.As you can read above, your 'evidence' is little of the sort.
Let's return to the beginning. In the fifth post in this thread, Flykiller calculated that the 'buy-in' for a single company of TL7 mechanized infantry was 5.3 MCr and that the annual upkeep for such a unit was 3.9 MCr. Run those costs past the fees for canonical tickets available to us and please explain to us how:
A - Someone can afford to put together a merc company in the first place. And...
2 - How they manage to meet their monthly payments whether they are on a ticket or not.
This is at TL7 mind you. No wholly owned starship transports, no advance parties aboard their own scout/couriers, no fancy TO&Es full of pricey equipment, none of that. Just a vanilla, barebones, mech infantry company with nary an air/raft. Four million credits a month.
You've said that banks won't lend to them, that business must see a safer return on it's money than mercs can provide, that rich people won't throw money away. Your ideas about a unit's activity 'cycle' failed to take into account Traveller's comm lag. You insist that units stay together despite real world experience and monetary evidence. You even insist that units move themselves despite the amazing cost of the starships involved.
You've closed the door on all sorts of funding mechanisms; like 'venture capital', subsidies, and patron-client relationships. You insist that units don't try and economize on expenses; like drawing down force levels between paying jobs. You've even added substantially to the 'buy-in' and maintenance costs involved by insisting that units own ships. How can the books ever balance?
So where does all the money come from? All the money that is needed to keep those large merc units with all their hi-tech toys permanently together? Are all the ticket prices low by an order of magnitude?
Show us the money, Bruce, and we'll believe you.
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
It's more than just the payroll. Did you miss the quote up thread about Instellarms having agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over.?
When you 'downsize' after a ticket you get rid of equipment too. That means cash in hand.It says the Losing side, not the winning side. The Losers might not be able to make payroll if it was a success only ticket.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions.I have canon examples of jump message torpedoes too, but go ahead.</font>[/QUOTE]Certainly, but do you have canon examples of Mercenary units being based around less than a platoon that recruits in order to fill tickets?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(These canon units are mostly Platoon sized... As I've been stressing all along. The smaller a unit is the more likely it is permenent.</font>[/QUOTE]But I haven't found more than two canon units that are shown with any detail at all that is above Platoon level.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...but one is a Regiment.)Which is most likely subsidized in some fashion by another party.</font>[/QUOTE]See below.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7)...In T20's Mileau:1000, the Imperium is fighting the Rim War. That has siphoned off Imperial assets from the Gateway region. The Imperium is helping planetary and sub-planetary governments hire mercs to fill the gap left by Imperial redeployments. What's more, nothing is said in either EA about how long the units in question have existed prior to the tickets presented in the EAs.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually that is incorrect. EA6 does give an indication that the unit has recently signed a contract with Beta Quadrant Security for the use of the Javelin Class Mercenary Cruiser and it is a new unit. Formed as a platoon without any ticket before organizing and equipping the unit.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword...We know nothing about the actual owners of Broadsword. The players take role of ship's crew or troopers as the scenarios change. Nothing is stated about the business end of the Broadsword operation. It could very well be wholly owned by a larger organization or subsidized in the various manners I've been suggesting.[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]It could also be independent, it doesn't say. But a unit that is going to invest in a transport, or have a transport as part of the TOE of the unit is unlikely to simply melt away after an assignment as they have the organization of the unit dictated by the capacity of the ship, not by a ticket.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...the Tlehekoi Regiment...Which was subsidized into existence by a clan and whose long term survival at its present size is not assured. </font>[/QUOTE]Well I can't find the book right now to give you accurate numbers but it has existed for generations before 1100, I believe it was mentioned as fighting since before the Peace of Fatah but I am not sure, and is mentioned as still existing during the Rebellion. It is independent of any Clan affiliation and it doesn't look like the future will change any of that. (Unless they get wiped out by Virus as Darkness falls.) I don't have any of my TNE material to see if they are mentioned there, though it would be rather neat to continue the tradition and in 1248, if they don't exist I can see some Traditional minded unmarried Aslan Female resurrecting the Regiment.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...and the Caledon Highlanders......and which is subsidized by the Principality of Caledon.</font>[/QUOTE]Based strictly on the Name? Or do you have an additional source for that?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now I am not saying some units won't break up.Just so you underastand me more clearly. I'm not saying all units break up all the time. I am saying that the larger a unit is and the more expensive it's TO&E, the more likely it is not permanent. And that, if it is permanent, it is not independent.
But the evidence implies that units stay together.As you can read above, your 'evidence' is little of the sort.</font>[/QUOTE]Though it is more substantial than anything you have provided.
Let's return to the beginning. In the fifth post in this thread, Flykiller calculated that the 'buy-in' for a single company of TL7 mechanized infantry was 5.3 MCr and that the annual upkeep for such a unit was 3.9 MCr. Run those costs past the fees for canonical tickets available to us and please explain to us how:
A - Someone can afford to put together a merc company in the first place. And...
2 - How they manage to meet their monthly payments whether they are on a ticket or not.
This is at TL7 mind you. No wholly owned starship transports, no advance parties aboard their own scout/couriers, no fancy TO&Es full of pricey equipment, none of that. Just a vanilla, barebones, mech infantry company with nary an air/raft. Four million credits a month.
You've said that banks won't lend to them, that business must see a safer return on it's money than mercs can provide, that rich people won't throw money away. Your ideas about a unit's activity 'cycle' failed to take into account Traveller's comm lag. You insist that units stay together despite real world experience and monetary evidence. You even insist that units move themselves despite the amazing cost of the starships involved.
You've closed the door on all sorts of funding mechanisms; like 'venture capital', subsidies, and patron-client relationships. You insist that units don't try and economize on expenses; like drawing down force levels between paying jobs. You've even added substantially to the 'buy-in' and maintenance costs involved by insisting that units own ships. How can the books ever balance?
So where does all the money come from? All the money that is needed to keep those large merc units with all their hi-tech toys permanently together? Are all the ticket prices low by an order of magnitude?
Show us the money, Bruce, and we'll believe you.First I didn't say they wouldn't be capitalized by a Corporation, or a Wealthy Patron, or some other capitalization method. I did say that the expenses would still have to be covered regardless of the source of capitalization, and the unit would generally have to show a profit in its operations. I also stated that large scale capitalization would not be simply for a future favor.
I also stated, early on that I believed that the Canon Tickets were not rationally priced and a better method of ticket pricing would be a good thing to have. (The Canon tickets may well be what the offer is, but that doesn't mean that a Mercenary Unit will actually be able to afford to take the ticket for that price.) Further a more detailed method of determining what, in general, a Unit's expenses would be and how to calculate it would be a nice thing to have. (Mostly so the profitability of the unit can be determined.)
The base salaries and the time required to recruit a new unit, plus train them to your specifications, pretty much preclude units not staying together and still being responsive enough to run the majority of the current canon tickets. the business will go to who can get there first in most of these tickets.
Instellarms can have agents traveling about, so can Mercenary Units. Both on organic transports and commercially. (I still like the idea of hiring Detached Duty scouts for that part of the operation.) the unit may be someplace but and may take time to get there but an agent of the unit can be there offering the Unit's services and negotiating the fee while the message is being sent to the Unit to deploy. (Cutting down response time.) Since recruiting is a lengthy process, I recommend having recruiters working full time as part of a successful Mercenary unit. These new recruits can then be trained and shipped to the action as replacements for casualties. (And can take the same transport as the Unit's Ammo resupply.)
You also mentioned that a unit will have to bring what it needs for ammo and supplies or go without. (No supply runs for resupply, so having an integral starship was unimportant and very uncommon.)
OK If the unit is a platoon and is expected, during the course of a ticket to act as a striker unit to spearhead an Indigenous Brigade, and is expected to go through 4 basic loads of ammo per week on a 6 month ticket, where are they going to store (And who is going to guard) the approximately 21,000 Ram grenades (over 29 metric tons of grenades plus packing material), that makes up 6 Ram Grenades per man in a 36 man platoon? Forget about the normal trooper ammunition or any heavy weapons, and what will it take to keep an MRL supplied for 6 months of combat. They certainly can't carry it with them. It wouldn't fit in a Broadsword, or a Javelin. It might fit in a Liner or a Fat trader, depending on how much actual gear the unit has. You also have to actually deliver it to the troops in the field, possibly under fire. How does the unit get replacements, or are they just expected to fight to the last man with no replacements? How about replacing lost weapons? Are we going to go from Gauss Rifles to Bolt action or Muzzle loaders during this 6 months?
I can see it now, trying to recruit men on a Tl5 world to fight in a unit equipped to TL12 and no training because they are Mercenaries!
Do you have any idea how much warfare and in particular small unit tactics, has changed in the past 10 years? (No TL change, around early TL8.) How about since Viet Nam? (TL7), or WWII (TL6)? WWI (TL5), The American Civil War (TL4)? There has been several major revolutions in warfare and tactics in the past 10 years, and three to four times that many in the past 20 years. How about the next 10 years? You couldn't take a soldier and train him, regardless of his training and experience, with a TL of difference in less than 6 weeks.
It's more than just the payroll. Did you miss the quote up thread about Instellarms having agents of the firm can often be found on a battlefield, negotiating the purchase of the equipment of the losing side before the battle is completely over.?
When you 'downsize' after a ticket you get rid of equipment too. That means cash in hand.It says the Losing side, not the winning side. The Losers might not be able to make payroll if it was a success only ticket.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Further I have 5 example canon Mercenary units that are long serving and together and none that break up between missions.I have canon examples of jump message torpedoes too, but go ahead.</font>[/QUOTE]Certainly, but do you have canon examples of Mercenary units being based around less than a platoon that recruits in order to fill tickets?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />(These canon units are mostly Platoon sized... As I've been stressing all along. The smaller a unit is the more likely it is permenent.</font>[/QUOTE]But I haven't found more than two canon units that are shown with any detail at all that is above Platoon level.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...but one is a Regiment.)Which is most likely subsidized in some fashion by another party.</font>[/QUOTE]See below.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />They are from T20 (EA6 and EA7)...In T20's Mileau:1000, the Imperium is fighting the Rim War. That has siphoned off Imperial assets from the Gateway region. The Imperium is helping planetary and sub-planetary governments hire mercs to fill the gap left by Imperial redeployments. What's more, nothing is said in either EA about how long the units in question have existed prior to the tickets presented in the EAs.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually that is incorrect. EA6 does give an indication that the unit has recently signed a contract with Beta Quadrant Security for the use of the Javelin Class Mercenary Cruiser and it is a new unit. Formed as a platoon without any ticket before organizing and equipping the unit.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... CT, Adventure 7, Broadsword...We know nothing about the actual owners of Broadsword. The players take role of ship's crew or troopers as the scenarios change. Nothing is stated about the business end of the Broadsword operation. It could very well be wholly owned by a larger organization or subsidized in the various manners I've been suggesting.[/qb]</font>[/QUOTE]It could also be independent, it doesn't say. But a unit that is going to invest in a transport, or have a transport as part of the TOE of the unit is unlikely to simply melt away after an assignment as they have the organization of the unit dictated by the capacity of the ship, not by a ticket.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...the Tlehekoi Regiment...Which was subsidized into existence by a clan and whose long term survival at its present size is not assured. </font>[/QUOTE]Well I can't find the book right now to give you accurate numbers but it has existed for generations before 1100, I believe it was mentioned as fighting since before the Peace of Fatah but I am not sure, and is mentioned as still existing during the Rebellion. It is independent of any Clan affiliation and it doesn't look like the future will change any of that. (Unless they get wiped out by Virus as Darkness falls.) I don't have any of my TNE material to see if they are mentioned there, though it would be rather neat to continue the tradition and in 1248, if they don't exist I can see some Traditional minded unmarried Aslan Female resurrecting the Regiment.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />...and the Caledon Highlanders......and which is subsidized by the Principality of Caledon.</font>[/QUOTE]Based strictly on the Name? Or do you have an additional source for that?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Now I am not saying some units won't break up.Just so you underastand me more clearly. I'm not saying all units break up all the time. I am saying that the larger a unit is and the more expensive it's TO&E, the more likely it is not permanent. And that, if it is permanent, it is not independent.
But the evidence implies that units stay together.As you can read above, your 'evidence' is little of the sort.</font>[/QUOTE]Though it is more substantial than anything you have provided.
Let's return to the beginning. In the fifth post in this thread, Flykiller calculated that the 'buy-in' for a single company of TL7 mechanized infantry was 5.3 MCr and that the annual upkeep for such a unit was 3.9 MCr. Run those costs past the fees for canonical tickets available to us and please explain to us how:
A - Someone can afford to put together a merc company in the first place. And...
2 - How they manage to meet their monthly payments whether they are on a ticket or not.
This is at TL7 mind you. No wholly owned starship transports, no advance parties aboard their own scout/couriers, no fancy TO&Es full of pricey equipment, none of that. Just a vanilla, barebones, mech infantry company with nary an air/raft. Four million credits a month.
You've said that banks won't lend to them, that business must see a safer return on it's money than mercs can provide, that rich people won't throw money away. Your ideas about a unit's activity 'cycle' failed to take into account Traveller's comm lag. You insist that units stay together despite real world experience and monetary evidence. You even insist that units move themselves despite the amazing cost of the starships involved.
You've closed the door on all sorts of funding mechanisms; like 'venture capital', subsidies, and patron-client relationships. You insist that units don't try and economize on expenses; like drawing down force levels between paying jobs. You've even added substantially to the 'buy-in' and maintenance costs involved by insisting that units own ships. How can the books ever balance?
So where does all the money come from? All the money that is needed to keep those large merc units with all their hi-tech toys permanently together? Are all the ticket prices low by an order of magnitude?
Show us the money, Bruce, and we'll believe you.First I didn't say they wouldn't be capitalized by a Corporation, or a Wealthy Patron, or some other capitalization method. I did say that the expenses would still have to be covered regardless of the source of capitalization, and the unit would generally have to show a profit in its operations. I also stated that large scale capitalization would not be simply for a future favor.
I also stated, early on that I believed that the Canon Tickets were not rationally priced and a better method of ticket pricing would be a good thing to have. (The Canon tickets may well be what the offer is, but that doesn't mean that a Mercenary Unit will actually be able to afford to take the ticket for that price.) Further a more detailed method of determining what, in general, a Unit's expenses would be and how to calculate it would be a nice thing to have. (Mostly so the profitability of the unit can be determined.)
The base salaries and the time required to recruit a new unit, plus train them to your specifications, pretty much preclude units not staying together and still being responsive enough to run the majority of the current canon tickets. the business will go to who can get there first in most of these tickets.
Instellarms can have agents traveling about, so can Mercenary Units. Both on organic transports and commercially. (I still like the idea of hiring Detached Duty scouts for that part of the operation.) the unit may be someplace but and may take time to get there but an agent of the unit can be there offering the Unit's services and negotiating the fee while the message is being sent to the Unit to deploy. (Cutting down response time.) Since recruiting is a lengthy process, I recommend having recruiters working full time as part of a successful Mercenary unit. These new recruits can then be trained and shipped to the action as replacements for casualties. (And can take the same transport as the Unit's Ammo resupply.)
You also mentioned that a unit will have to bring what it needs for ammo and supplies or go without. (No supply runs for resupply, so having an integral starship was unimportant and very uncommon.)
OK If the unit is a platoon and is expected, during the course of a ticket to act as a striker unit to spearhead an Indigenous Brigade, and is expected to go through 4 basic loads of ammo per week on a 6 month ticket, where are they going to store (And who is going to guard) the approximately 21,000 Ram grenades (over 29 metric tons of grenades plus packing material), that makes up 6 Ram Grenades per man in a 36 man platoon? Forget about the normal trooper ammunition or any heavy weapons, and what will it take to keep an MRL supplied for 6 months of combat. They certainly can't carry it with them. It wouldn't fit in a Broadsword, or a Javelin. It might fit in a Liner or a Fat trader, depending on how much actual gear the unit has. You also have to actually deliver it to the troops in the field, possibly under fire. How does the unit get replacements, or are they just expected to fight to the last man with no replacements? How about replacing lost weapons? Are we going to go from Gauss Rifles to Bolt action or Muzzle loaders during this 6 months?
I can see it now, trying to recruit men on a Tl5 world to fight in a unit equipped to TL12 and no training because they are Mercenaries!
Do you have any idea how much warfare and in particular small unit tactics, has changed in the past 10 years? (No TL change, around early TL8.) How about since Viet Nam? (TL7), or WWII (TL6)? WWI (TL5), The American Civil War (TL4)? There has been several major revolutions in warfare and tactics in the past 10 years, and three to four times that many in the past 20 years. How about the next 10 years? You couldn't take a soldier and train him, regardless of his training and experience, with a TL of difference in less than 6 weeks.
aramis
December 11th, 2006, 01:29 AM
One thing that has been a reality of MTU is that Mercs will often ship by slow-boats they have invested in as a source of payroll. Sure, it's a huge hunk of slow moving capital, but it allows them to be near or at when the predicted war breaks out.
A paid off bit of hardware is a valuable asset that costs not more than 10% per year to keep going. So, unless it sits 10 years or more, it's worth retaining.
Bill: I disagree about disbanding post-action. Makes little sense for most of the non-cadre-only type units. I do agree that some are cadre-only, and these go for specific types of actions, often for extended periods of "hearts and minds" ala US Army Green Berets, or for "We need to train our peasants NOW" type missions.
Here's a contract up for bid.... work out your costs:
Situation: Wypoc/Lanth is seeking a unit for defending an off-world but in-system station from potential Zhodani threats. Barracks, LS and food for 100 sophonts provided for 2 year contract. Report date 120 days from this notice. 120-1105. 200Td of 6m tall hangar space available. Exterior ranges can be established; several thousand hectares of useable exterior desert. No civilian populace at destination. Expected threat level platoon to battalion strength Zhodani army; mission to delay Zhodani until facility can be destroyed if facility in danger of being taken. Local gravity 0.5G, atmosphere at surface 80mB (Trace) CO2/Nitrogen mix, daily average temperatures 200K-290K ±30K seasonal.
Submit bids to Baronial office soonest via IISS.
Pick your world, and submit a bid... TO&E, costs, and bid proposal.
Next week, I'll give the details on what is ACTUALLY there and why they'd do this.
A paid off bit of hardware is a valuable asset that costs not more than 10% per year to keep going. So, unless it sits 10 years or more, it's worth retaining.
Bill: I disagree about disbanding post-action. Makes little sense for most of the non-cadre-only type units. I do agree that some are cadre-only, and these go for specific types of actions, often for extended periods of "hearts and minds" ala US Army Green Berets, or for "We need to train our peasants NOW" type missions.
Here's a contract up for bid.... work out your costs:
Situation: Wypoc/Lanth is seeking a unit for defending an off-world but in-system station from potential Zhodani threats. Barracks, LS and food for 100 sophonts provided for 2 year contract. Report date 120 days from this notice. 120-1105. 200Td of 6m tall hangar space available. Exterior ranges can be established; several thousand hectares of useable exterior desert. No civilian populace at destination. Expected threat level platoon to battalion strength Zhodani army; mission to delay Zhodani until facility can be destroyed if facility in danger of being taken. Local gravity 0.5G, atmosphere at surface 80mB (Trace) CO2/Nitrogen mix, daily average temperatures 200K-290K ±30K seasonal.
Submit bids to Baronial office soonest via IISS.
Pick your world, and submit a bid... TO&E, costs, and bid proposal.
Next week, I'll give the details on what is ACTUALLY there and why they'd do this.
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Certainly, but do you have canon examples of Mercenary units being based around less than a platoon that recruits in order to fill tickets?Bruce,
Isn't that why they're talking to the PCs in the first place? To put a platoon together?
As for the rest of it, none of it matters. Until you show us the money, it is all supposition.
I'm saying the canon ticket fees do work and can support the canoncial description of the merc business if we simply add factors A, B, and C to the mix. You're saying the canon ticket fees do not work because they cannot support your interpretation of how the merc business should work.
I'm accepting canon at face value and trying to figure out how the business can work given the canonical information. You've decided how the merc business should work and are now trying to get canon to fit your preconception.
I'm bending canon, keeping as much as possible and trying to make the theory fit the facts. You're breaking canon, keeping only what you feel is 'correct' and discarding those facts which doesn't fit your preconcieved theory.
In my model, the canonical tickets can be filled by the canonical sized units at the canonical fees and a profit made. In your model, the canonical tickets must be filled by canonical sized units at inflated fees before any hope of a profit can be made.
So, which model does more violence to canon? Remember, the closer a model is to canon, the more people there are who can use it. Which model is closer to canon? The canon bender or the canon breaker?
Also, you still need to wrap your head around the nature of Traveller's communication and travel lag. Given cell phone and commsat world we all live in, all of us have to shake off the presumption of rapid, if not instantaneous, communications. Taking months to negotiate or recruit may seem like a waste of time to you, but in the Traveller universe comm lags measured in months are the norm even within a subsector. The nature of OTU comm lag is something that even tripped up GDW and other published authors, the 'broken' FFW dates in CT's 'Spinward Marches Campaign are a good example of this.
Much of the rapidity and 'knee jerk' response times you read into the canonical tickets are in actuality your own cultural biases. You subconciously assume that OTU merc tickets are let on a Monday, filled on a Wednesday, and completed on a Friday because that's how the real world operates. However, given the nature of jump drive, that's not how the OTU can operate.
So, again, show us the money. Show us how your model of the OTU merc business can work while doing as little violence to canon as possible. You first need to exhaust all possibilities before you declare the canonical ticket fees broken.
Have fun,
Bill
Certainly, but do you have canon examples of Mercenary units being based around less than a platoon that recruits in order to fill tickets?Bruce,
Isn't that why they're talking to the PCs in the first place? To put a platoon together?
As for the rest of it, none of it matters. Until you show us the money, it is all supposition.
I'm saying the canon ticket fees do work and can support the canoncial description of the merc business if we simply add factors A, B, and C to the mix. You're saying the canon ticket fees do not work because they cannot support your interpretation of how the merc business should work.
I'm accepting canon at face value and trying to figure out how the business can work given the canonical information. You've decided how the merc business should work and are now trying to get canon to fit your preconception.
I'm bending canon, keeping as much as possible and trying to make the theory fit the facts. You're breaking canon, keeping only what you feel is 'correct' and discarding those facts which doesn't fit your preconcieved theory.
In my model, the canonical tickets can be filled by the canonical sized units at the canonical fees and a profit made. In your model, the canonical tickets must be filled by canonical sized units at inflated fees before any hope of a profit can be made.
So, which model does more violence to canon? Remember, the closer a model is to canon, the more people there are who can use it. Which model is closer to canon? The canon bender or the canon breaker?
Also, you still need to wrap your head around the nature of Traveller's communication and travel lag. Given cell phone and commsat world we all live in, all of us have to shake off the presumption of rapid, if not instantaneous, communications. Taking months to negotiate or recruit may seem like a waste of time to you, but in the Traveller universe comm lags measured in months are the norm even within a subsector. The nature of OTU comm lag is something that even tripped up GDW and other published authors, the 'broken' FFW dates in CT's 'Spinward Marches Campaign are a good example of this.
Much of the rapidity and 'knee jerk' response times you read into the canonical tickets are in actuality your own cultural biases. You subconciously assume that OTU merc tickets are let on a Monday, filled on a Wednesday, and completed on a Friday because that's how the real world operates. However, given the nature of jump drive, that's not how the OTU can operate.
So, again, show us the money. Show us how your model of the OTU merc business can work while doing as little violence to canon as possible. You first need to exhaust all possibilities before you declare the canonical ticket fees broken.
Have fun,
Bill
flykiller
December 11th, 2006, 02:20 AM
But the evidence ....ad hoc statements in an ad hoc fantasy role-playing game really aren't evidence. given OTU assumptions it's clear that independent mercenary companies that rise above the level of cadre/commando will be scarce if they exist at all. this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.
'course, if you're desperate for the books to balance there are ways to do it. if only governments and megacorps can afford merc units, then so be it ...
1) there are always governments that have trouble with some region of their legal territory. the amazon, the opium-growing regions of thailand, and most of afghanistan come to mind. "now we're not officially at war you understand, we can't do that, but over the next year or two you boys will be expected to ...."
2) megacorporations will always have local problems. "we have legal permission from the government to tap these oil fields, but lawless local natives object. we need you to clear them out by year's end."
3) megacorporations may fight by proxy. "corporation x thinks they can get away with outbidding us for these oil fields, but if you can regularly lob artillery onto their well heads for the next six months and make it look like native opposition we'll be able to outbid them next year."
4) lots of room for religion here. "our interstellar missionary and charity outreach efforts are the most effective in the subsector, but we face much opposition. join Los Conquistadores and bear the sword of God!"
5) given this paradigm some space action clearly is available. say tukera lines is faced with some low-level piracy that the imperium just doesn't have time or resources to deal with. tukera will put together its own forces to suppress it, with or without imperial knowledge and blessing.
lots and lots of merc action here, and all of it fully paid-for.
'course, if you're desperate for the books to balance there are ways to do it. if only governments and megacorps can afford merc units, then so be it ...
1) there are always governments that have trouble with some region of their legal territory. the amazon, the opium-growing regions of thailand, and most of afghanistan come to mind. "now we're not officially at war you understand, we can't do that, but over the next year or two you boys will be expected to ...."
2) megacorporations will always have local problems. "we have legal permission from the government to tap these oil fields, but lawless local natives object. we need you to clear them out by year's end."
3) megacorporations may fight by proxy. "corporation x thinks they can get away with outbidding us for these oil fields, but if you can regularly lob artillery onto their well heads for the next six months and make it look like native opposition we'll be able to outbid them next year."
4) lots of room for religion here. "our interstellar missionary and charity outreach efforts are the most effective in the subsector, but we face much opposition. join Los Conquistadores and bear the sword of God!"
5) given this paradigm some space action clearly is available. say tukera lines is faced with some low-level piracy that the imperium just doesn't have time or resources to deal with. tukera will put together its own forces to suppress it, with or without imperial knowledge and blessing.
lots and lots of merc action here, and all of it fully paid-for.
sid6.7
December 11th, 2006, 02:41 AM
well i ran through 1 6 month ticket(simplisticly)
includes ship for resupply and reinforcements.
using my 1.46 million per month in expenses for
6 months is 8.76 million + damages/ammo of 780k
this covered 3 engagments with 60 men killed
i had to recruit 2 times 23 and 27 men, i lost
10 in the last one. so my platoon left with 38.
---------
= 9.54 million in costs...
if i use 1.33 i get a ticket of 11.65 million
or about a 2 million credit profit after 6 months
of a standard operation...1m to CO. 1m to men
-----------------------------------------
i took another 6 month ticket and purposed
i lost either my AFV or my Heli, i rolled
the AFV or 7,000,000 to replace.
i had 1 million from previous and 1 million
from the second or 2 million in profits then
subtract the AFV i am 5 million in the WHOLE.
--------------
@ 1.5 = 1 tour/ 13.14 ticket or a 3.74 profit
2 tour same
so 7.4 million in profit - 7 millon
for AFV equals 400,000k profit.
so 200k to CO. 200k to men
@ 1.75 = 1 tour/ 15.33 million or 6.75 in profit
2 tour same
so 13.5 million in profit - 7
for AFV equals 6.5 million profit
or 3.25m to Co. and 3.25m to men.
needless to say that is what i would consider
minor losses 60 men and 1 AFV....
between tickets lets say i am lucky and get
a new ticket 1 month after the other is over
i still have 1.46 million in monthly expenses
so now 1.33 and 1.5 create losses for me.
if i were to go more then 3 months without
a ticket 1.46 x 3 then even 1.75 creates a loss
for me....
i still say it is best if you try to design
tickets for your players of no less then
(expenses X 1.75) = ticket total....
if your client provided the ship you might
squeeze out some profit at 1.5 but you'll
take a loss at 1.33.
so regardless of canon or what we WANT to happen
clients have to pay a hefty price for mercs
whether they like it or not.
i also noticed that in some of the canon
tickets they dont stress tech levels i think
we would make an assumption that a merc unit
would look for tickets where they are 1 tech
above the opponent also then there is more
of a chance for success tickets....
also we were talking about incomes it does
NOT ness. have to be using your ships
commerically while on a tour...previous
profits can be put into legit companys and
stock to create the income needed to run
a privately owned merc unit. then on the other
hand during "OFF" times they could easly
(if they have thier own ship) looting small
defenseless low tech worlds for more booty.
with that in mind and given the size of the
imperium it wouldnt be too much a stretch to
assume a dozen or so merc co. are prowling
around doing full time merc work in the imperium
of the platoon or company size and maybe 1-2
brigade size units if they've been at it
long enough and invested thier profits wisely.
for example the 1 canon ticket offers .1%
holding worth a 30,000,000 value if you
already had a bit of money in the bank the
merc unit would have a venture on a planet
during down times that produes a yearly or
quarterly income.
it doesnt say if thats yearly or just total
value so since were rpg'ing use your imagination.
we dont have to go overboard on realism it ruins the game.(my opinion)
are we done yet? :(
includes ship for resupply and reinforcements.
using my 1.46 million per month in expenses for
6 months is 8.76 million + damages/ammo of 780k
this covered 3 engagments with 60 men killed
i had to recruit 2 times 23 and 27 men, i lost
10 in the last one. so my platoon left with 38.
---------
= 9.54 million in costs...
if i use 1.33 i get a ticket of 11.65 million
or about a 2 million credit profit after 6 months
of a standard operation...1m to CO. 1m to men
-----------------------------------------
i took another 6 month ticket and purposed
i lost either my AFV or my Heli, i rolled
the AFV or 7,000,000 to replace.
i had 1 million from previous and 1 million
from the second or 2 million in profits then
subtract the AFV i am 5 million in the WHOLE.
--------------
@ 1.5 = 1 tour/ 13.14 ticket or a 3.74 profit
2 tour same
so 7.4 million in profit - 7 millon
for AFV equals 400,000k profit.
so 200k to CO. 200k to men
@ 1.75 = 1 tour/ 15.33 million or 6.75 in profit
2 tour same
so 13.5 million in profit - 7
for AFV equals 6.5 million profit
or 3.25m to Co. and 3.25m to men.
needless to say that is what i would consider
minor losses 60 men and 1 AFV....
between tickets lets say i am lucky and get
a new ticket 1 month after the other is over
i still have 1.46 million in monthly expenses
so now 1.33 and 1.5 create losses for me.
if i were to go more then 3 months without
a ticket 1.46 x 3 then even 1.75 creates a loss
for me....
i still say it is best if you try to design
tickets for your players of no less then
(expenses X 1.75) = ticket total....
if your client provided the ship you might
squeeze out some profit at 1.5 but you'll
take a loss at 1.33.
so regardless of canon or what we WANT to happen
clients have to pay a hefty price for mercs
whether they like it or not.
i also noticed that in some of the canon
tickets they dont stress tech levels i think
we would make an assumption that a merc unit
would look for tickets where they are 1 tech
above the opponent also then there is more
of a chance for success tickets....
also we were talking about incomes it does
NOT ness. have to be using your ships
commerically while on a tour...previous
profits can be put into legit companys and
stock to create the income needed to run
a privately owned merc unit. then on the other
hand during "OFF" times they could easly
(if they have thier own ship) looting small
defenseless low tech worlds for more booty.
with that in mind and given the size of the
imperium it wouldnt be too much a stretch to
assume a dozen or so merc co. are prowling
around doing full time merc work in the imperium
of the platoon or company size and maybe 1-2
brigade size units if they've been at it
long enough and invested thier profits wisely.
for example the 1 canon ticket offers .1%
holding worth a 30,000,000 value if you
already had a bit of money in the bank the
merc unit would have a venture on a planet
during down times that produes a yearly or
quarterly income.
it doesnt say if thats yearly or just total
value so since were rpg'ing use your imagination.
we dont have to go overboard on realism it ruins the game.(my opinion)
are we done yet? :(
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by flykiller:
ad hoc statements in an ad hoc fantasy role-playing game really aren't evidence.Fly,
Well put.
given OTU assumptions it's clear that independent mercenary companies that rise above the level of cadre/commando will be scarce if they exist at all.Yes. Not non-existent, just scarce.
this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.Again, yes. If the players are just a squad leader and his squad, why should they be worried about the 'nuts & bolts' financial work that went on behind the scenes when their platoon/company was hired. The GM announcing, through their commander of course, that they've been hired by Arglebargle-IX to raid a mining complex should be enough.
'course, if you're desperate for the books to balance there are ways to do it. if only governments and megacorps can afford merc units, then so be it ...Again, yes. This was my first point in this thread. The big units with the big toys are going to either be wholly owned by someone or subsidized in various ways by someone or someones. The monetary requirements simply demand.
And because they're owned or subsidized, they're going to come with strings attached. Strings their current employers may or may not know about.
Let me use Drake's latest Slammers book as an example. SPOILER ALERT
The Slammers sign on to fight for a loose consortium of nations on a planet. The planet produces a form of 'unobtanium', a natural resource found no where else. Making matters trickier, only certain parts of the planet produce the 'unobtanium' and those parts are not could for either farming or building a starport. This has split the planet up. One nation in the 'center' farms and works the port while the rest produce the unobtanium. The war kicks off when the farming/port nation hikes it's handling fees and food prices.
As the book goes on, the Slammers first become involved in internal politics of consortium member nations and then find themselves on what is going to be the losing end of a long war. Yes, the Slammers are going to lose. It seems the farming/port nation is simply burying them in off-world mercs, importing more and more units while the Slammer's side has a fixed number under no real central command. Col. Hammer launches an all out attack on the starport in order to grab the ultimate bargaining chip and succeeds. (Naturally).
Now comes the tricky part.
Right after the Slammers grab the port and a shaky ceasefire is put in place, the real people behind the war show up. Another planet who purchases most of the 'unobtanium' lands a division on the port and announces they now own it. It seems they had demanded the farming/port nation raise its prices and then had backed that nation financially throughout the war. The war has all but destroyed both sides on-world and the other planet is calling in it's debts. They own and run the port, setting prices as they see fit.
Col. Hammer has something up his sleeve however. In a few days he has a group of new employers - a third group of other planets that want to break the first planet's monopoly on 'unobtanium' purchases. The Slammers destroy the off-world division, retake the port, and turn it over to the local nations, who immediately negotiate an exclusive export pact with the third group.
Here's the kicker: The Slammers had that deal in place before they even began fighting on the planet for their original employers.
You tell me. What would make for a richer RPG campaign experience? Running your merc players through some lopsided TL12 vs local rubes, XP harvesting, dungeon crawl? Or throwing them a bunch of financially derived curveballs like those in the Slammer's novel above? Even if they're 'only' squad leaders, a ticket like the one Drake wrote has to be a far richer RPG experience.
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
ad hoc statements in an ad hoc fantasy role-playing game really aren't evidence.Fly,
Well put.
given OTU assumptions it's clear that independent mercenary companies that rise above the level of cadre/commando will be scarce if they exist at all.Yes. Not non-existent, just scarce.
this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.Again, yes. If the players are just a squad leader and his squad, why should they be worried about the 'nuts & bolts' financial work that went on behind the scenes when their platoon/company was hired. The GM announcing, through their commander of course, that they've been hired by Arglebargle-IX to raid a mining complex should be enough.
'course, if you're desperate for the books to balance there are ways to do it. if only governments and megacorps can afford merc units, then so be it ...Again, yes. This was my first point in this thread. The big units with the big toys are going to either be wholly owned by someone or subsidized in various ways by someone or someones. The monetary requirements simply demand.
And because they're owned or subsidized, they're going to come with strings attached. Strings their current employers may or may not know about.
Let me use Drake's latest Slammers book as an example. SPOILER ALERT
The Slammers sign on to fight for a loose consortium of nations on a planet. The planet produces a form of 'unobtanium', a natural resource found no where else. Making matters trickier, only certain parts of the planet produce the 'unobtanium' and those parts are not could for either farming or building a starport. This has split the planet up. One nation in the 'center' farms and works the port while the rest produce the unobtanium. The war kicks off when the farming/port nation hikes it's handling fees and food prices.
As the book goes on, the Slammers first become involved in internal politics of consortium member nations and then find themselves on what is going to be the losing end of a long war. Yes, the Slammers are going to lose. It seems the farming/port nation is simply burying them in off-world mercs, importing more and more units while the Slammer's side has a fixed number under no real central command. Col. Hammer launches an all out attack on the starport in order to grab the ultimate bargaining chip and succeeds. (Naturally).
Now comes the tricky part.
Right after the Slammers grab the port and a shaky ceasefire is put in place, the real people behind the war show up. Another planet who purchases most of the 'unobtanium' lands a division on the port and announces they now own it. It seems they had demanded the farming/port nation raise its prices and then had backed that nation financially throughout the war. The war has all but destroyed both sides on-world and the other planet is calling in it's debts. They own and run the port, setting prices as they see fit.
Col. Hammer has something up his sleeve however. In a few days he has a group of new employers - a third group of other planets that want to break the first planet's monopoly on 'unobtanium' purchases. The Slammers destroy the off-world division, retake the port, and turn it over to the local nations, who immediately negotiate an exclusive export pact with the third group.
Here's the kicker: The Slammers had that deal in place before they even began fighting on the planet for their original employers.
You tell me. What would make for a richer RPG campaign experience? Running your merc players through some lopsided TL12 vs local rubes, XP harvesting, dungeon crawl? Or throwing them a bunch of financially derived curveballs like those in the Slammer's novel above? Even if they're 'only' squad leaders, a ticket like the one Drake wrote has to be a far richer RPG experience.
YMMV.
Have fun,
Bill
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
are we done yet? :( Sid,
I think we are.
Have fun,
Bill
are we done yet? :( Sid,
I think we are.
Have fun,
Bill
Liam Devlin
December 11th, 2006, 05:31 AM
And thanks for helping me pass 4.5 hours of really slow time at work wading through all this! Man what a read.
Bill-thanks for the spoiler on the new Drake novel, btw! Now there's a twister of a ticket!
Bill-thanks for the spoiler on the new Drake novel, btw! Now there's a twister of a ticket!
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 09:42 AM
OK Lets say that Mercs are Megacorp security services, Noble Husculares, and National Armies on their day off virtually exclusively.
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics so Husculares overthrowing local governments, even on some independent contract, (Or supporting Local governments) would draw the displeasure of the rest of the Nobility. After the Noble's Husculares are an extension of the Noble.
Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets. If it is demonstrated it will cause additional problems. Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.
Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)
Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.
But that still doesn't make a difference when it comes to profitability of a Mercenary Unit. The unit still has to meet its expenses. Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.
Getting into a 3 month campaign on a mid pop world with a Tech Base 2+ levels below what your unit is equipped to, without access to outside sources for replacements (both parts and manpower) will dwindle your unit down to nothing during that same time period. Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours, should be no less than 2 weeks, for veterans, in fact I am willing to say Tech level difference+1 x2 weeks would be minimal (And if it is recruiting from a higher Tech world, then still a minimum of 2 weeks.). You think a US Soldier that got out of the service 10 years ago could just join a Ranger BN today and be ready for a Commando raid the next morning? The weapon systems haven't changed that much on a small arms level. Isn't it still Infantry Tactics, which every soldier learns?
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.
Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank?
There certainly isn't a ticket that allows this kind of capital expenditure to successfully run a Mercenary unit as a business. Forget about your troops needing to get familiar with the new piece of equipment between when you get the ticket and secure the new piece of equipment, and then commence operations. After all a T72 is the same as a T80 or an M60, or a Challenger or a Leopard, or a Merkava, or a LeClerc, or an M1, isn't it?
It is just forward, backward, left, right, point the business end in the general direction of the bad guys and um, is it squeeze a trigger or push a button? They all use the same maintenance and have the same engine don't they? You break track the same way with each of those right? They do all use the same ammo right? (For those that don't know they are all main battle tanks, produced at or modified to the current tech level.) No training is required, after all these guys are all "Mercenaries!"
You said show you the money. That is why I started this thread, to figure out how the money works. Adding additional economic losses to the equation, such as divesting yourself of the equipment after a ticket. doesn't solve the economic situation with the current crop of canon tickets, it compounds the issue. Unless each ticket pays sufficiently to buy a full new set of equipment and pay the expendable supplies and salaries, as well as generate a profit, and none of the current tickets do that, how does taking a loss in capital on your equipment after each ticket improve the profit margin of a Unit? I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.
There isn't sufficient canon material to calculate it as is. But there needs to be a way that makes sense, after all Mercenary Campaigns are and have always been one of the more popular types of Traveller campaigns. For all of that popularity it is definitely under explored.
Some of the tickets, just looking at things like small arms ammunition expenditure, are clearly under financed. You can bend the rules, but this is definitely broken.
Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent. (Perhaps not independent to the point that they have no outside backers, but independent of major Megacorp, Government or Nobel influence.) After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys. Or perhaps they want to give Instellarms or Stern Metal Horizons, the Mineral Rights and some influence, in the first ticket.
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics so Husculares overthrowing local governments, even on some independent contract, (Or supporting Local governments) would draw the displeasure of the rest of the Nobility. After the Noble's Husculares are an extension of the Noble.
Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets. If it is demonstrated it will cause additional problems. Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.
Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)
Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.
But that still doesn't make a difference when it comes to profitability of a Mercenary Unit. The unit still has to meet its expenses. Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.
Getting into a 3 month campaign on a mid pop world with a Tech Base 2+ levels below what your unit is equipped to, without access to outside sources for replacements (both parts and manpower) will dwindle your unit down to nothing during that same time period. Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours, should be no less than 2 weeks, for veterans, in fact I am willing to say Tech level difference+1 x2 weeks would be minimal (And if it is recruiting from a higher Tech world, then still a minimum of 2 weeks.). You think a US Soldier that got out of the service 10 years ago could just join a Ranger BN today and be ready for a Commando raid the next morning? The weapon systems haven't changed that much on a small arms level. Isn't it still Infantry Tactics, which every soldier learns?
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.
Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank?
There certainly isn't a ticket that allows this kind of capital expenditure to successfully run a Mercenary unit as a business. Forget about your troops needing to get familiar with the new piece of equipment between when you get the ticket and secure the new piece of equipment, and then commence operations. After all a T72 is the same as a T80 or an M60, or a Challenger or a Leopard, or a Merkava, or a LeClerc, or an M1, isn't it?
It is just forward, backward, left, right, point the business end in the general direction of the bad guys and um, is it squeeze a trigger or push a button? They all use the same maintenance and have the same engine don't they? You break track the same way with each of those right? They do all use the same ammo right? (For those that don't know they are all main battle tanks, produced at or modified to the current tech level.) No training is required, after all these guys are all "Mercenaries!"
You said show you the money. That is why I started this thread, to figure out how the money works. Adding additional economic losses to the equation, such as divesting yourself of the equipment after a ticket. doesn't solve the economic situation with the current crop of canon tickets, it compounds the issue. Unless each ticket pays sufficiently to buy a full new set of equipment and pay the expendable supplies and salaries, as well as generate a profit, and none of the current tickets do that, how does taking a loss in capital on your equipment after each ticket improve the profit margin of a Unit? I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.
There isn't sufficient canon material to calculate it as is. But there needs to be a way that makes sense, after all Mercenary Campaigns are and have always been one of the more popular types of Traveller campaigns. For all of that popularity it is definitely under explored.
Some of the tickets, just looking at things like small arms ammunition expenditure, are clearly under financed. You can bend the rules, but this is definitely broken.
Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent. (Perhaps not independent to the point that they have no outside backers, but independent of major Megacorp, Government or Nobel influence.) After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys. Or perhaps they want to give Instellarms or Stern Metal Horizons, the Mineral Rights and some influence, in the first ticket.
atpollard
December 11th, 2006, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
But that still doesn't make a difference when it comes to profitability of a Mercenary Unit. The unit still has to meet its expenses.For company men this is not strictly true.
If a "patron" (in whatever form) needed to maintain a military arm "just in case", then a MCr 10 per month unit that earns MCr 5 per month from tickets still costs less to maintain than a MCr 10 per month unit that earns MCr 0 per month from tickets.
It is really no different than rebels selling drugs to afford weapons to continue the revolution. It just happens out of view, so the rules don't care about it.
This is not my favorite view, it is just one view that could work.
But that still doesn't make a difference when it comes to profitability of a Mercenary Unit. The unit still has to meet its expenses.For company men this is not strictly true.
If a "patron" (in whatever form) needed to maintain a military arm "just in case", then a MCr 10 per month unit that earns MCr 5 per month from tickets still costs less to maintain than a MCr 10 per month unit that earns MCr 0 per month from tickets.
It is really no different than rebels selling drugs to afford weapons to continue the revolution. It just happens out of view, so the rules don't care about it.
This is not my favorite view, it is just one view that could work.
atpollard
December 11th, 2006, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.
Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank? But I did offer to rent that MCr 7 tank to you for Cr 70,000 per month plus a MCr 7 bond that you get back if you return the tank. And I would be happy to rent that MCr 20 tank to you for Cr 200,000 per month plus a MCr 20 bond. You need more capital on hand, but a Cr 70,000 per ticket cost for a tank is much better than a MCr 3.5 cost to buy and resell it.
And I pay shipping. smile.gif
[PS at 1/100 cost per month with no risk to me, I earn a lot more renting weapons than financing Starships at 1/240 Cost per month.]
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.
Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank? But I did offer to rent that MCr 7 tank to you for Cr 70,000 per month plus a MCr 7 bond that you get back if you return the tank. And I would be happy to rent that MCr 20 tank to you for Cr 200,000 per month plus a MCr 20 bond. You need more capital on hand, but a Cr 70,000 per ticket cost for a tank is much better than a MCr 3.5 cost to buy and resell it.
And I pay shipping. smile.gif
[PS at 1/100 cost per month with no risk to me, I earn a lot more renting weapons than financing Starships at 1/240 Cost per month.]
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.
Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank? But I did offer to rent that MCr 7 tank to you for Cr 70,000 per month plus a MCr 7 bond that you get back if you return the tank. And I would be happy to rent that MCr 20 tank to you for Cr 200,000 per month plus a MCr 20 bond. You need more capital on hand, but a Cr 70,000 per ticket cost for a tank is much better than a MCr 3.5 cost to buy and resell it. </font>[/QUOTE]That requires lots of capital on hand to do it, but it certainly makes more sense than selling it after the ticket. Do I get a break for a large order? What kind of stock do you maintain on hand? Does that include insurance?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.
Selling your equipment between tickets means you have to have quite a bit more capital on hand than if you kept the equipment. You buy a Tank for one mission. Sell it at the end of the mission. (You likely took a loss here, probably got 50% for it at the end. On a MCr7 tank you just took a Capital loss of MCr3.5.) Next ticket you need a tank again, but this time you would prefer a Heavy Tank. You shell out MCr20 this time. At the end of the ticket you sell it and you get MCr10 back. Doing this, over the course of 2 tickets you have lost, with only one tank involved, MCr13.5. Where is that expense covered? And you didn't even lose the tank. Oh I know the Mega Corp backers of the unit don't care about profitability and are simply willing to write this off as expenses? Per Tank? But I did offer to rent that MCr 7 tank to you for Cr 70,000 per month plus a MCr 7 bond that you get back if you return the tank. And I would be happy to rent that MCr 20 tank to you for Cr 200,000 per month plus a MCr 20 bond. You need more capital on hand, but a Cr 70,000 per ticket cost for a tank is much better than a MCr 3.5 cost to buy and resell it. </font>[/QUOTE]That requires lots of capital on hand to do it, but it certainly makes more sense than selling it after the ticket. Do I get a break for a large order? What kind of stock do you maintain on hand? Does that include insurance?
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.Again, yes. If the players are just a squad leader and his squad, why should they be worried about the 'nuts & bolts' financial work that went on behind the scenes when their platoon/company was hired. The GM announcing, through their commander of course, that they've been hired by Arglebargle-IX to raid a mining complex should be enough.</font>[/QUOTE]The background financial work, perhaps not, unless they are part owners. The profitability of the ticket and the unit in general? Absolutely! Every Rifleman, every Private, every driver, clerk, ammo bearer is going to care about that. Why? Because Mercenaries don't fight for King and Country. They don't fight for the Glorious Socialist Revolution. They don't fight for the Stars and Stripes. Or any number of other reasons. Mercenaries, by definition, fight for MONEY!
Paraphrased from LBB4, page 19, the economics of a ticket are as follows. The ticket is paid. The expenses are deducted and the balance is then split in half. One half goes to the owners and backers as profit and the other half is divided among the Mercenaries in the form of shares. If the Unit commander is also part owner than he gets paid from both pots.
This implies that there is a profit. In order to calculate the profit you have to be able to calculate the expenses. There is no reference for how to calculate these expenses. Even if the initial equipment was provided by Santa Claus, with no strings attached, there has to be an accounting for repairing and/or replacing equipment, especially major end items. Further there has to be an accounting for consumables, such as ammunition, explosives, food, fuel, etc. So while initial funding may or may not be that important to the big picture, unless the players are actually forming a Mercenary Unit, not just joining one, the profit margin is the important, issue, if the unit expenses does include paying off initial equipment then it is definitely going to effect the bottom line.
Since Mercenaries fight for money, and since the money they get paid is directly related to how profitable the Unit is and how much the ticket pays, they are going to have a serious interest in the economics side of things. (Perhaps as far as the players are concerned not initially but very shortly after their first bonus check.)
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />this is just one of those things that just has to be passed over to play a mercenary group in the OTU.Again, yes. If the players are just a squad leader and his squad, why should they be worried about the 'nuts & bolts' financial work that went on behind the scenes when their platoon/company was hired. The GM announcing, through their commander of course, that they've been hired by Arglebargle-IX to raid a mining complex should be enough.</font>[/QUOTE]The background financial work, perhaps not, unless they are part owners. The profitability of the ticket and the unit in general? Absolutely! Every Rifleman, every Private, every driver, clerk, ammo bearer is going to care about that. Why? Because Mercenaries don't fight for King and Country. They don't fight for the Glorious Socialist Revolution. They don't fight for the Stars and Stripes. Or any number of other reasons. Mercenaries, by definition, fight for MONEY!
Paraphrased from LBB4, page 19, the economics of a ticket are as follows. The ticket is paid. The expenses are deducted and the balance is then split in half. One half goes to the owners and backers as profit and the other half is divided among the Mercenaries in the form of shares. If the Unit commander is also part owner than he gets paid from both pots.
This implies that there is a profit. In order to calculate the profit you have to be able to calculate the expenses. There is no reference for how to calculate these expenses. Even if the initial equipment was provided by Santa Claus, with no strings attached, there has to be an accounting for repairing and/or replacing equipment, especially major end items. Further there has to be an accounting for consumables, such as ammunition, explosives, food, fuel, etc. So while initial funding may or may not be that important to the big picture, unless the players are actually forming a Mercenary Unit, not just joining one, the profit margin is the important, issue, if the unit expenses does include paying off initial equipment then it is definitely going to effect the bottom line.
Since Mercenaries fight for money, and since the money they get paid is directly related to how profitable the Unit is and how much the ticket pays, they are going to have a serious interest in the economics side of things. (Perhaps as far as the players are concerned not initially but very shortly after their first bonus check.)
atpollard
December 11th, 2006, 02:01 PM
Have we considered looting to boost profits? I understand that it has a long and sucessfull track record.
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by atpollard:
Have we considered looting to boost profits? I understand that it has a long and sucessfull track record. ROFLMAO! I think the person paying the ticket, in many cases, would object. Besides it isn't a reputation that a unit wants. Perhaps if you called it Strategic Recovery Of Lost Assets and use the Acronym of SROLA? smile.gif Maybe an RP&B operation. (Rape Pillage and Burn. smile.gif )
Have we considered looting to boost profits? I understand that it has a long and sucessfull track record. ROFLMAO! I think the person paying the ticket, in many cases, would object. Besides it isn't a reputation that a unit wants. Perhaps if you called it Strategic Recovery Of Lost Assets and use the Acronym of SROLA? smile.gif Maybe an RP&B operation. (Rape Pillage and Burn. smile.gif )
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
thanks for the spoiler on the new Drake novel, btw! Now there's a twister of a ticket! Liam,
It certainly looked like there was more spoiler space in the message wondow when I typed it. :(
I wrote the spoiler warning and then hit 'return' until that line stepped up out of the top of the window. Somehow all that space translated to only few lines when the message posted.
FWIW, you can get the novel I wrote as a FREE download at the Baen website.
Have fun reading,
Bill
thanks for the spoiler on the new Drake novel, btw! Now there's a twister of a ticket! Liam,
It certainly looked like there was more spoiler space in the message wondow when I typed it. :(
I wrote the spoiler warning and then hit 'return' until that line stepped up out of the top of the window. Somehow all that space translated to only few lines when the message posted.
FWIW, you can get the novel I wrote as a FREE download at the Baen website.
Have fun reading,
Bill
flykiller
December 11th, 2006, 04:27 PM
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The unit still has to meet its expenses.For company men this is not strictly true.</font>[/QUOTE]for the organization overall, it is. for the military unit, it isn't. military ops could be viewed as an operating expense, the costs of which will be passed along to the customer or back to the membership.
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics...Bruce,
In the Warrant of Restoration, the Imperium reserves the right to interfere wherever and whenever it deems appropriate. Using semi-deniable, third party forces like huscarles on their 'day off' is a perfect fig leaf.
Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets.Which, of course, is why LSP is arming Clan Hardretter on Marstan, why 'outside' corporations have subsidized the nation of Stepozhevac and the Free Commerc Bloc on Porozlo, and why Sternmetal is is subsidizing the nation of Lovrenyi on Aramanx.
Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.Directly involved? Their subsidies are paying for the mercs. Sure, their own security forces aren't fighting, they've got other jobs to do, but mercs paid by the megacorps are fighting. What's the actual difference?
Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)Which, of course, is why we have government code 6; captive government, Vilis owning Garda-Vilis, Ivendo owning that planetoid in the Icetina system (or vice versa), why Squanine owning Burston, and a whole host of other canonical references to worlds doing precisely what you say they cannot do.
While the Imperium will prevent you from carving out your own subsector sized pocket empire, you can apparently snatch, 'colonize', or simply stomp on nearby worlds up to a point. LBB:4 even explicitly states that the Imperium quitely looks the other way while local forces settle their differences through armed conflict, only intervening when the defense of the realm is at stake. If you have the political cover, you can pretty much do as you damn please within the Imperium.
Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.Do you even pay attention when you read the materials?
First, there is nothing that explicitly states that any of the units involved in the tickets in LBB:4 are fully independent and quite a bit that implies that the units in question in the three most lucrative ticket are not independent at all.
Second, logistics on the level you've been so concerned about at not even touched upon. In the megacorp-sponsored striker, commando, and dream tickets it is entirely reasonable to assume that fungibles will be provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties. You can even make a case for major equipment being provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties.
Even in the cadre ticket, which is the ticket with the best chance of being filled by an independent unit, the hiring party is providing all the fungibles because the players are training locals how to properly use local equipment.
Do you really think that Sternmetal is going to let the offensive launched by it's client nation Lovrenyi founder because the mercs involved couldn't purchase enough ammo out of the ticket fee? Sternmetal is going to make sure those mercs have all the ammo they'll ever need.
Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.I want you re-read the section called Financial Support on page 17 of LBB:4 and pay attention to what it says and implies. Especially the explicit and implicit differences beween long and short tickets. You should first notice that the section talk about equipment and not supplies.
Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours...sigh... Yet another straw man...
You don't normally plan on training recruits, at least not at the level you're assuming. You hire mercs, veterans, and newbies in that order of preference, LBB:4 even state as much with it's recruiting matrix based on experience. Unless the ticket calls for it, you're not running boot camps.
Will there be an occasional green recruit? Sure. Will there be a platoon of them? Hell no.
You continue to bring up the example of veterans needing to be retrained again to fit into merc units and use real world progress as an example. That analogy fails on several levels.
First, the Imperium hasn't progressed in the last 100 years like our real world has. Technology is essentially static. Second, a recruit from a low tech level world isn't going to be only trained on the use of flintlock muskets. The Imperium has free trade and small arms are one of those things that are always traded.
You fail to understand that tech level as described in the CT rules is something entirely different from tech level in the CT setting. Except in extremely rare cases, all of which are Red Zoned, a TL2 world complete with knights in shining armor DOES NOT EXIST next door to a TL15 world.
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.ATPollard has already explained to you how that works. The section on page 17 of LBB:4 should explain to you also, when you read and pay attention to it.
I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.Stop right there. As I posted up thread, you're trying to get a reasonable number that works with your assumptions about how the merc market should work. Your assumptions and what is actually presented are not the same thing.
Instead of coming up with a theory about how the merc market works and then changing the facts to fit the preconcieved theory, I and the others here are taking what is presented at face value and are constructing a model of the merc market that fit the known facts.
Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent.That can be debated.
(Perhaps not independent to the point that they have no outside backers, but independent of major Megacorp, Government or Nobel influence.)Score a laugh point. That's like being a 'little bit' pregnant.
After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys.Because their own guys are busy with their own jobs? Because Wackenhut is not Executive Solutions? Because they need to work through third parties for appearences sake? There are doznes of reasons.
Drop your assumptions. Take the known facts and fashion a theory that fits them, not the other way around.
Have fun,
Bill
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics...Bruce,
In the Warrant of Restoration, the Imperium reserves the right to interfere wherever and whenever it deems appropriate. Using semi-deniable, third party forces like huscarles on their 'day off' is a perfect fig leaf.
Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets.Which, of course, is why LSP is arming Clan Hardretter on Marstan, why 'outside' corporations have subsidized the nation of Stepozhevac and the Free Commerc Bloc on Porozlo, and why Sternmetal is is subsidizing the nation of Lovrenyi on Aramanx.
Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.Directly involved? Their subsidies are paying for the mercs. Sure, their own security forces aren't fighting, they've got other jobs to do, but mercs paid by the megacorps are fighting. What's the actual difference?
Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)Which, of course, is why we have government code 6; captive government, Vilis owning Garda-Vilis, Ivendo owning that planetoid in the Icetina system (or vice versa), why Squanine owning Burston, and a whole host of other canonical references to worlds doing precisely what you say they cannot do.
While the Imperium will prevent you from carving out your own subsector sized pocket empire, you can apparently snatch, 'colonize', or simply stomp on nearby worlds up to a point. LBB:4 even explicitly states that the Imperium quitely looks the other way while local forces settle their differences through armed conflict, only intervening when the defense of the realm is at stake. If you have the political cover, you can pretty much do as you damn please within the Imperium.
Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.Do you even pay attention when you read the materials?
First, there is nothing that explicitly states that any of the units involved in the tickets in LBB:4 are fully independent and quite a bit that implies that the units in question in the three most lucrative ticket are not independent at all.
Second, logistics on the level you've been so concerned about at not even touched upon. In the megacorp-sponsored striker, commando, and dream tickets it is entirely reasonable to assume that fungibles will be provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties. You can even make a case for major equipment being provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties.
Even in the cadre ticket, which is the ticket with the best chance of being filled by an independent unit, the hiring party is providing all the fungibles because the players are training locals how to properly use local equipment.
Do you really think that Sternmetal is going to let the offensive launched by it's client nation Lovrenyi founder because the mercs involved couldn't purchase enough ammo out of the ticket fee? Sternmetal is going to make sure those mercs have all the ammo they'll ever need.
Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.I want you re-read the section called Financial Support on page 17 of LBB:4 and pay attention to what it says and implies. Especially the explicit and implicit differences beween long and short tickets. You should first notice that the section talk about equipment and not supplies.
Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours...sigh... Yet another straw man...
You don't normally plan on training recruits, at least not at the level you're assuming. You hire mercs, veterans, and newbies in that order of preference, LBB:4 even state as much with it's recruiting matrix based on experience. Unless the ticket calls for it, you're not running boot camps.
Will there be an occasional green recruit? Sure. Will there be a platoon of them? Hell no.
You continue to bring up the example of veterans needing to be retrained again to fit into merc units and use real world progress as an example. That analogy fails on several levels.
First, the Imperium hasn't progressed in the last 100 years like our real world has. Technology is essentially static. Second, a recruit from a low tech level world isn't going to be only trained on the use of flintlock muskets. The Imperium has free trade and small arms are one of those things that are always traded.
You fail to understand that tech level as described in the CT rules is something entirely different from tech level in the CT setting. Except in extremely rare cases, all of which are Red Zoned, a TL2 world complete with knights in shining armor DOES NOT EXIST next door to a TL15 world.
Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.ATPollard has already explained to you how that works. The section on page 17 of LBB:4 should explain to you also, when you read and pay attention to it.
I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.Stop right there. As I posted up thread, you're trying to get a reasonable number that works with your assumptions about how the merc market should work. Your assumptions and what is actually presented are not the same thing.
Instead of coming up with a theory about how the merc market works and then changing the facts to fit the preconcieved theory, I and the others here are taking what is presented at face value and are constructing a model of the merc market that fit the known facts.
Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent.That can be debated.
(Perhaps not independent to the point that they have no outside backers, but independent of major Megacorp, Government or Nobel influence.)Score a laugh point. That's like being a 'little bit' pregnant.
After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys.Because their own guys are busy with their own jobs? Because Wackenhut is not Executive Solutions? Because they need to work through third parties for appearences sake? There are doznes of reasons.
Drop your assumptions. Take the known facts and fashion a theory that fits them, not the other way around.
Have fun,
Bill
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by flykiller:
for the organization overall, it is. for the military unit, it isn't. military ops could be viewed as an operating expense, the costs of which will be passed along to the customer or back to the membership. Fly,
Very true.
Organizations can also take a long view and Traveller's megacorps are said to take a very long view indeed.
The books needn't balance this week or this month. Hell, with megacorps they needn't balance this decade or century.
With billions (Marastan) or trillions (Porozlo, Aramanx) in the offing, what's a few tens of millions?
Have fun,
Bill
for the organization overall, it is. for the military unit, it isn't. military ops could be viewed as an operating expense, the costs of which will be passed along to the customer or back to the membership. Fly,
Very true.
Organizations can also take a long view and Traveller's megacorps are said to take a very long view indeed.
The books needn't balance this week or this month. Hell, with megacorps they needn't balance this decade or century.
With billions (Marastan) or trillions (Porozlo, Aramanx) in the offing, what's a few tens of millions?
Have fun,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics...Bruce,
In the Warrant of Restoration, the Imperium reserves the right to interfere wherever and whenever it deems appropriate. Using semi-deniable, third party forces like huscarles on their 'day off' is a perfect fig leaf.</font>[/QUOTE]The Imperium does, the Local Nobels do not. You can consider that one and the same I personally don't. The general feeling I always got was that the Nobility was above local politics and neither desired nor were allowed to significantly interfere.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets.Which, of course, is why LSP is arming Clan Hardretter on Marstan, why 'outside' corporations have subsidized the nation of Stepozhevac and the Free Commerc Bloc on Porozlo, and why Sternmetal is is subsidizing the nation of Lovrenyi on Aramanx.</font>[/QUOTE]However there is a problem if the Majority of Mercenary Units are in a Corporation's pocket. Take Marstan for example. LSP backs the play of Clan Hardretter, but the Merc unit they hire, since they obviously aren't hiring one in LSP's pocket or the ticket would have been kept internally, is in the pocket of Stern Metal Horizons. According to you they have to belong to someone. Suddenly LSP is handing over the Clan it is backing to their biggest rivals. Now that is absolutely brilliant. LSP is obviously looking for a Merc unit that isn't in someone's pocket but can be bought and be expected to stay bought to do the job. Where there are big corporations there is money to be made as independents.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.Directly involved? Their subsidies are paying for the mercs. Sure, their own security forces aren't fighting, they've got other jobs to do, but mercs paid by the megacorps are fighting. What's the actual difference?</font>[/QUOTE]If the Mercs are all in one pocket or another instead of being independent it makes a huge difference as they will only hire their mercs for a job instead of risking putting someone else in a position of power.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)Which, of course, is why we have government code 6, captive government, Vilis owning Garda-Vilis, Ivendo owning that planetoid in the Icetina system (or vice versa), why Squanine owning Burston, and a whole host of other canonical references to worlds doing precisely what you say they cannot do.
While the Imperium will prevent you from carving out your own subsector sized pocket empire, you can apparently snatch, 'colonize', or simply stomp on nearby worlds up to a point. LBB4 even explicitly states that the Imperium quitely looks the other way while local forces settle their differences through armed conflict, only intervening when the defense of the realm is at stake. If you have the political cover, you can pretty much do as you damn please within the Imperium.</font>[/QUOTE]As long as you don't engage in any disruption of trade and limit the effects of these wars. Wars of conquest are explicitly prohibited in the Imperial Rules of War. Just because it is a captive government does not mean that the planet was captured militarily.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.Do you even pay attention when you read the materials?</font>[/QUOTE]Better, apparently, than you understand the realities of training soldiers.
First, there is nothing that explicitly states that any of the units involved in the tickets in LBB 4 are fully independent and quite a bit that implies that the units in question in the three most lucrative ticket are not independent at all.I read and understand English quite well. Demonstrate the implication that the units in question are not independent. Where does it imply that? It doesn't even list the unit. How does it imply that? It states that a Battalion is required, not that a Battalion that is beholden to LSP is required. The only implication that Units are not independent is that you can't see them being any other way. Unless you are reading something other than LBB4, Adventure 7, 76 Patrons, or EA6-7. Where are you reading this material?
You asked how a Merc unit could be funded without Megacorp backing? And show you the money for start up costs. Sure. Here is the money.
Here is an example of non-corporate influence. 5 Merchants that got rich with Spec Trade decide that they should diversify. One of them ran into a Lieutenant that seemed competent and saved the Merchant's life while the Lieutenant was serving as a Mercenary and pulling Security Duty at a Starport. The Merchants approach the Lieutenant and offer to stake him in creating a Mercenary Unit if he can demonstrate how he can show a profit. After all Billions can be made in Spec Trade. They also give this now older Lieutenant, a full partnership in the ownership of the unit as he is the one with the expertise. Hmmm. No Megacorp influence. No Nobility or Local Government required. Plenty of Independent Merchants, and since Spec trade is so lucrative, the Majority of them are rich enough. Independent Merchants are many, Mega Corporations and Nobility are few. Over time the Mercenary commander buys out his partners and now owns the unit free and clear.
Second Option. A Junior Officer serving in a Mercenary Unit gets promoted, gets bonuses, works his way up the chain and gets rich doing this. He decides that he isn't going to be able to go any further so he takes the money he has been carefully saving and decides to strike out on his own. He builds his own Mercenary unit from his previous savings. Starting small and building as his success earn him more money, especially since he isn't paying partners, and his reputation as a winner, allows his unit to grow.
Third option. An Imperial Marine Officer, after serving 20 years gets fed up with the service. They shot his puppy or something, who cares. He takes his severance Pay, his experience as both a Leader and a recruiter, grabs a buddy or two of his that is also getting out, and together they pool their resources. They start small, if you stay away from Combat armor and Plasma guns you can equip a decent sized Platoon for around KCr150, that is a starting point. You can add on from there, in terms of equipment a piece at a time. Yes it will, probably in both option 2 and 3 take a while before they are fielding Battalions, but it isn't all that far down the road for a successful and hungry unit.
Second, logistics on the level you've been so concerned about at not even touched upon. In the megacorp-sponsored striker, commando, and dream tickets it is entirely reasonable to assume that fungibles will be provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties. You can even make a case for major equipment being provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties.Actually it specifically states in both of the Battalion tickets in LBB4 that the Units have to supply their own equipment and in one allows a specific amount of money to get some of it but definitely no where near any type of Mech unit, that the ticket appears to call for, and that equipment comes out of your bottom line. They specifically ask for a certain type of unit at a specific size. Why would they do that if all they want is warm bodies to ride in their vehicles?
How is a TL6 world going to produce ammo for a TL9-TL12 unit? Most of the tickets are on TL<8 worlds. There are of course exceptions. Further Ammunition and other consumables are the only thing that are actually accounted for in the rules. Beans and bullets you can count. Vehicle repairs and maintenance are not covered well.
Even in the cadre ticket, which is the ticket with the best chance of being filled by an independent unit, the hiring party is providing all the fungibles because the players are training locals how to properly use local equipment.This ticket is obvious that the ammo and weapons are going to be supplied. But in the Marastan Ticket the Ammunition is not being supplied for free, it is specified that they will have to buy it. (Though at a reduced cost.) How would any of these low tech worlds supply the obviously copious amounts of ammo that are to be used?
Do you really think that Sternmetal is going to let the offensive launched by it's client nation Lovrenyi founder because the mercs involved couldn't purchase enough ammo out of the ticket fee? Sternmetal is going to make sure those mercs have all the ammo they'll ever need.If they have that much pull or want it that badly, why not just use their own security "consultants" and be done with it. Why take chances? Do I think Sternmetal would let a unit run out of ammo? Yes, I do. After all the contract was success only, there is obviously only so much the Corporation is willing to invest.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.I want you re-read the section called Financial Support on page 17 of LBB4 and pay attention to what it says and implies. Especially the explicit and implicit differences beween long and short tickets. You should first notice that the section talk about equipment and not supplies. </font>[/QUOTE]Correct it does talk about equipment and not supplies. But it doesn't say where the supplies are coming from either. The Marastan Ticket does specify that ammunition will be supplied at 10% of list. So right there in the first ticket there is a specific reference to Ammunition supply. Now where do you read anything that states that Ammunition supply is the responsibility of the Party offering the ticket?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours...sigh... Yet another straw man...
You don't normally plan on training recruits, at least not at the level you're assuming. You hire mercs, veterans, and newbies in that order of preference, LBB4 even state as much with it's recruiting matrix based on experience. Unless the ticket calls for it, you're not running boot camps.</font>[/QUOTE]And you will note I said 2 weeks, not 12 weeks. Lets look at this another way. If I hire Mercs that all used to be US Army Rangers serving in the same timeframe, and supply them with M-16s, M-203's and other equipment that they would have used while they served as Rangers, then you are correct, I would only have to train them long enough so they all were on the same sheet of music in terms of communications, Chain of command, and mission prep. But if I didn't have enough ex-US Army Rangers around and I had to hire a couple of US Army Veterans that used to be Logistics Drivers and expected them to do the same job as the Rangers they would need some additional training. Now if I hired a pair of Rangers, 2 Truck Drivers, and 5 Spetznatz Veterans, and gave them all Galils, then they would all require training, in particular Weapon Familiarization, Communication, Movement to Contact, etc. Now I am equipping a unit with M-1 Tanks and I hire T-34 tank crews, to man them, do you really think they could do this without training? Even if they served at the battle of Stalingrad? These guys are Mercenaries! They don't need training! How about putting a Sopwith Camel Pilot in an SU-27? You think that will work?
Second when recruiting your Mercenaries and Veteran Officers, on a Pop-6 world, how many do you get per 2 weeks? None! On a Pop 5 world what kind of recruits do you get, Raw recruits. No other types.
Will there be an occasional green recruit? Sure. Will there be a platoon of them? Hell no.How long do you plan on recruiting before accepting this ticket? You can recruit maybe a Platoon per two weeks, if you are willing to accept simply veterans, instead of only Veteran Officers and Mercenaries. And only if you are on a High Population World. There are 3-4 platoons in a Company. There are 3-5 Companies in a Battalion. Where are all these seasoned Mercenaries coming from? Not in any rulebook I have. If the majority of people you accept are "Mercenaries" Then you will be lucky to recruit a Squad per two weeks.
You continue to bring up the example of veterans needing to be retrained again to fit into merc units and use real world progress as an example. That analogy fails on several levels.
First, the Imperium hasn't progressed in the last 100 years like our real world has. Technology is essentially static. Second, a recruit from a low tech level world isn't going to be only trained on the use of flintlock muskets. The Imperium has free trade and small arms are one of those things that are always traded.If that was the case then why are there various Tech Levels? Shouldn't it all be relatively level then? Second the opposition in many of the tickets is specified as units equipped to a specific Tech Level. If your assumption is correct then why aren't they all equipped to TL15?
You fail to understand that tech level as described in the CT rules is something entirely different from tech level in the CT setting. Except in extremely rare cases, all of which are Red Zoned, a TL2 world complete with knights in shining armor DOES NOT EXIST next door to a TL15 world.Oh really? How about The Rhylanor Cluster. 3 systems Jump 1 apart. TL15, TL10, TL8. Lets move to Mora, Sector Capital. Mora TL15, Jokotre TL7, Dojodo TL7, Nadrin TL6. All of these are J-1 from Mora. Jokotre TL7 is sandwiched between Mora at TL15 and Fornice TL12. How many more do you want me to illustrate? The OTU is full of that kind of disparity in TL between neighbors. What Traveller setting are you using? So it isn't TL15 and Tl2 next to each other, WWII Tanks Next door to the latest Grav vehicles. Spitfires against Trepidia Tanks. I suppose you think that the Spitfire Pilot can fly that Trepidia just by sitting in the cockpit?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.ATPollard has already explained to you how that works. The section on page 17 of LBB4 should explain to you also, when you read and pay attention to it.</font>[/QUOTE]I did read it. For a Long Ticket equipment is supplied, for a short ticket, which is the majority of the canon tickets, the Unit supplies its own equipment. What am I missing? Or more importantly what are you reading into that?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.Stop right there. As I posted up thread, you're trying to get a reasonable number that works with your assumptions about how the merc market should work. Your assumptions and what is actually presented are not the same thing.</font>[/QUOTE]OK I am reading way into things here. Lets take that as a base here. I am forcing my frame of reference on the tickets here. On which ticket where the patron does not supply transport, there are a couple of those, does it state that the patron is responsible for covering the Mercenary Unit's loss of a tank? On which ticket does it even imply that? And if it implies it, how is it implied? Please show me where it says that a Mercenary Unit can get all shot up and not have to worry about expenses of replacing those losses. And how a TL6 world is going to replace a TL10 Tank in the first place is another issue. A Company ticket that the unit successfully fullfills, pays MCr3. During the ticket the company lost one of its MCr10 tanks. Who is responsible for replacing the tank? Even if they rent it if they lose it they are still not just out the rental fee but the price of the tank as well. Now if they have to pay to replace major end items, how is that not part of the unit's expenses?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Instead of coming up with a theory about how the merc market works and then changing the facts to fit the preconcieved theory, I and the others here are taking what is presented at face value and are constructing a model of the merc market that fit the known facts.As opposed to your unfounded assumptions on how the Mercenary Business is handled with no basis in either the real world or the Traveller rules. Come on Bill, all you are offering is rhetoric. Do you have anything to back it up? Anything at all that says that the majority of Mercenary units are in the pocket of a Megacorp? That independent Mercenary Units are the exception not the rule?
My assumptions are misguided and unfounded. Yours are correct without any basis or evidence in the rules. Fine show me why my thoughts on this have to be wrong and yours have to be correct. (Citing references.)
[qb]Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent.That can be debated.
So debate it. Show how it isn't possible using canon sources. All you are offering is your opposing view.
[QUOTE][qb]After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys.Because their own guys are busy with their own jobs? Because Wackenhut is not Executive Solutions? Because they need to work through third parties for appearences sake? There are doznes of reasons.
Drop your assumptions. Take the known facts and fashion a theory that fits them, not the other way around.</font>Show these known facts. I am apparently blind. I don't see any known facts when it comes to Megacorps owning 90+% of the Mercenary trade.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BetterThanLife:
First Nobles are not supposed to get involved in local politics...Bruce,
In the Warrant of Restoration, the Imperium reserves the right to interfere wherever and whenever it deems appropriate. Using semi-deniable, third party forces like huscarles on their 'day off' is a perfect fig leaf.</font>[/QUOTE]The Imperium does, the Local Nobels do not. You can consider that one and the same I personally don't. The general feeling I always got was that the Nobility was above local politics and neither desired nor were allowed to significantly interfere.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Second, Megacorp Security Forces. Again there are problems if the Megacorps interfere with the local planets.Which, of course, is why LSP is arming Clan Hardretter on Marstan, why 'outside' corporations have subsidized the nation of Stepozhevac and the Free Commerc Bloc on Porozlo, and why Sternmetal is is subsidizing the nation of Lovrenyi on Aramanx.</font>[/QUOTE]However there is a problem if the Majority of Mercenary Units are in a Corporation's pocket. Take Marstan for example. LSP backs the play of Clan Hardretter, but the Merc unit they hire, since they obviously aren't hiring one in LSP's pocket or the ticket would have been kept internally, is in the pocket of Stern Metal Horizons. According to you they have to belong to someone. Suddenly LSP is handing over the Clan it is backing to their biggest rivals. Now that is absolutely brilliant. LSP is obviously looking for a Merc unit that isn't in someone's pocket but can be bought and be expected to stay bought to do the job. Where there are big corporations there is money to be made as independents.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hence roughly half the tickets are sponsored by one Corp or another, who can't get directly involved.Directly involved? Their subsidies are paying for the mercs. Sure, their own security forces aren't fighting, they've got other jobs to do, but mercs paid by the megacorps are fighting. What's the actual difference?</font>[/QUOTE]If the Mercs are all in one pocket or another instead of being independent it makes a huge difference as they will only hire their mercs for a job instead of risking putting someone else in a position of power.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Third System Militaries, loaned out. There are rules against using your forces elsewhere. (Same issues as above.)Which, of course, is why we have government code 6, captive government, Vilis owning Garda-Vilis, Ivendo owning that planetoid in the Icetina system (or vice versa), why Squanine owning Burston, and a whole host of other canonical references to worlds doing precisely what you say they cannot do.
While the Imperium will prevent you from carving out your own subsector sized pocket empire, you can apparently snatch, 'colonize', or simply stomp on nearby worlds up to a point. LBB4 even explicitly states that the Imperium quitely looks the other way while local forces settle their differences through armed conflict, only intervening when the defense of the realm is at stake. If you have the political cover, you can pretty much do as you damn please within the Imperium.</font>[/QUOTE]As long as you don't engage in any disruption of trade and limit the effects of these wars. Wars of conquest are explicitly prohibited in the Imperial Rules of War. Just because it is a captive government does not mean that the planet was captured militarily.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Therefore it is definitely implied that Mercenary Units can be independent and are at best only partially owned by one of the above factors.Do you even pay attention when you read the materials?</font>[/QUOTE]Better, apparently, than you understand the realities of training soldiers.
First, there is nothing that explicitly states that any of the units involved in the tickets in LBB 4 are fully independent and quite a bit that implies that the units in question in the three most lucrative ticket are not independent at all.I read and understand English quite well. Demonstrate the implication that the units in question are not independent. Where does it imply that? It doesn't even list the unit. How does it imply that? It states that a Battalion is required, not that a Battalion that is beholden to LSP is required. The only implication that Units are not independent is that you can't see them being any other way. Unless you are reading something other than LBB4, Adventure 7, 76 Patrons, or EA6-7. Where are you reading this material?
You asked how a Merc unit could be funded without Megacorp backing? And show you the money for start up costs. Sure. Here is the money.
Here is an example of non-corporate influence. 5 Merchants that got rich with Spec Trade decide that they should diversify. One of them ran into a Lieutenant that seemed competent and saved the Merchant's life while the Lieutenant was serving as a Mercenary and pulling Security Duty at a Starport. The Merchants approach the Lieutenant and offer to stake him in creating a Mercenary Unit if he can demonstrate how he can show a profit. After all Billions can be made in Spec Trade. They also give this now older Lieutenant, a full partnership in the ownership of the unit as he is the one with the expertise. Hmmm. No Megacorp influence. No Nobility or Local Government required. Plenty of Independent Merchants, and since Spec trade is so lucrative, the Majority of them are rich enough. Independent Merchants are many, Mega Corporations and Nobility are few. Over time the Mercenary commander buys out his partners and now owns the unit free and clear.
Second Option. A Junior Officer serving in a Mercenary Unit gets promoted, gets bonuses, works his way up the chain and gets rich doing this. He decides that he isn't going to be able to go any further so he takes the money he has been carefully saving and decides to strike out on his own. He builds his own Mercenary unit from his previous savings. Starting small and building as his success earn him more money, especially since he isn't paying partners, and his reputation as a winner, allows his unit to grow.
Third option. An Imperial Marine Officer, after serving 20 years gets fed up with the service. They shot his puppy or something, who cares. He takes his severance Pay, his experience as both a Leader and a recruiter, grabs a buddy or two of his that is also getting out, and together they pool their resources. They start small, if you stay away from Combat armor and Plasma guns you can equip a decent sized Platoon for around KCr150, that is a starting point. You can add on from there, in terms of equipment a piece at a time. Yes it will, probably in both option 2 and 3 take a while before they are fielding Battalions, but it isn't all that far down the road for a successful and hungry unit.
Second, logistics on the level you've been so concerned about at not even touched upon. In the megacorp-sponsored striker, commando, and dream tickets it is entirely reasonable to assume that fungibles will be provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties. You can even make a case for major equipment being provided by the hiring and/or sponsoring parties.Actually it specifically states in both of the Battalion tickets in LBB4 that the Units have to supply their own equipment and in one allows a specific amount of money to get some of it but definitely no where near any type of Mech unit, that the ticket appears to call for, and that equipment comes out of your bottom line. They specifically ask for a certain type of unit at a specific size. Why would they do that if all they want is warm bodies to ride in their vehicles?
How is a TL6 world going to produce ammo for a TL9-TL12 unit? Most of the tickets are on TL<8 worlds. There are of course exceptions. Further Ammunition and other consumables are the only thing that are actually accounted for in the rules. Beans and bullets you can count. Vehicle repairs and maintenance are not covered well.
Even in the cadre ticket, which is the ticket with the best chance of being filled by an independent unit, the hiring party is providing all the fungibles because the players are training locals how to properly use local equipment.This ticket is obvious that the ammo and weapons are going to be supplied. But in the Marastan Ticket the Ammunition is not being supplied for free, it is specified that they will have to buy it. (Though at a reduced cost.) How would any of these low tech worlds supply the obviously copious amounts of ammo that are to be used?
Do you really think that Sternmetal is going to let the offensive launched by it's client nation Lovrenyi founder because the mercs involved couldn't purchase enough ammo out of the ticket fee? Sternmetal is going to make sure those mercs have all the ammo they'll ever need.If they have that much pull or want it that badly, why not just use their own security "consultants" and be done with it. Why take chances? Do I think Sternmetal would let a unit run out of ammo? Yes, I do. After all the contract was success only, there is obviously only so much the Corporation is willing to invest.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Any unit that is going to actually be in combat, is going to spend more money on small arms ammo per firefight than salary per week. Double Standard Salaries as renumeration for a ticket, where the patron is not supplying the expendables, is not going to produce a profit under any circumstances.I want you re-read the section called Financial Support on page 17 of LBB4 and pay attention to what it says and implies. Especially the explicit and implicit differences beween long and short tickets. You should first notice that the section talk about equipment and not supplies. </font>[/QUOTE]Correct it does talk about equipment and not supplies. But it doesn't say where the supplies are coming from either. The Marastan Ticket does specify that ammunition will be supplied at 10% of list. So right there in the first ticket there is a specific reference to Ammunition supply. Now where do you read anything that states that Ammunition supply is the responsibility of the Party offering the ticket?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Training for people recruited at a TL of one below yours...sigh... Yet another straw man...
You don't normally plan on training recruits, at least not at the level you're assuming. You hire mercs, veterans, and newbies in that order of preference, LBB4 even state as much with it's recruiting matrix based on experience. Unless the ticket calls for it, you're not running boot camps.</font>[/QUOTE]And you will note I said 2 weeks, not 12 weeks. Lets look at this another way. If I hire Mercs that all used to be US Army Rangers serving in the same timeframe, and supply them with M-16s, M-203's and other equipment that they would have used while they served as Rangers, then you are correct, I would only have to train them long enough so they all were on the same sheet of music in terms of communications, Chain of command, and mission prep. But if I didn't have enough ex-US Army Rangers around and I had to hire a couple of US Army Veterans that used to be Logistics Drivers and expected them to do the same job as the Rangers they would need some additional training. Now if I hired a pair of Rangers, 2 Truck Drivers, and 5 Spetznatz Veterans, and gave them all Galils, then they would all require training, in particular Weapon Familiarization, Communication, Movement to Contact, etc. Now I am equipping a unit with M-1 Tanks and I hire T-34 tank crews, to man them, do you really think they could do this without training? Even if they served at the battle of Stalingrad? These guys are Mercenaries! They don't need training! How about putting a Sopwith Camel Pilot in an SU-27? You think that will work?
Second when recruiting your Mercenaries and Veteran Officers, on a Pop-6 world, how many do you get per 2 weeks? None! On a Pop 5 world what kind of recruits do you get, Raw recruits. No other types.
Will there be an occasional green recruit? Sure. Will there be a platoon of them? Hell no.How long do you plan on recruiting before accepting this ticket? You can recruit maybe a Platoon per two weeks, if you are willing to accept simply veterans, instead of only Veteran Officers and Mercenaries. And only if you are on a High Population World. There are 3-4 platoons in a Company. There are 3-5 Companies in a Battalion. Where are all these seasoned Mercenaries coming from? Not in any rulebook I have. If the majority of people you accept are "Mercenaries" Then you will be lucky to recruit a Squad per two weeks.
You continue to bring up the example of veterans needing to be retrained again to fit into merc units and use real world progress as an example. That analogy fails on several levels.
First, the Imperium hasn't progressed in the last 100 years like our real world has. Technology is essentially static. Second, a recruit from a low tech level world isn't going to be only trained on the use of flintlock muskets. The Imperium has free trade and small arms are one of those things that are always traded.If that was the case then why are there various Tech Levels? Shouldn't it all be relatively level then? Second the opposition in many of the tickets is specified as units equipped to a specific Tech Level. If your assumption is correct then why aren't they all equipped to TL15?
You fail to understand that tech level as described in the CT rules is something entirely different from tech level in the CT setting. Except in extremely rare cases, all of which are Red Zoned, a TL2 world complete with knights in shining armor DOES NOT EXIST next door to a TL15 world.Oh really? How about The Rhylanor Cluster. 3 systems Jump 1 apart. TL15, TL10, TL8. Lets move to Mora, Sector Capital. Mora TL15, Jokotre TL7, Dojodo TL7, Nadrin TL6. All of these are J-1 from Mora. Jokotre TL7 is sandwiched between Mora at TL15 and Fornice TL12. How many more do you want me to illustrate? The OTU is full of that kind of disparity in TL between neighbors. What Traveller setting are you using? So it isn't TL15 and Tl2 next to each other, WWII Tanks Next door to the latest Grav vehicles. Spitfires against Trepidia Tanks. I suppose you think that the Spitfire Pilot can fly that Trepidia just by sitting in the cockpit?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lets talk about divesting the equipment between tickets.ATPollard has already explained to you how that works. The section on page 17 of LBB4 should explain to you also, when you read and pay attention to it.</font>[/QUOTE]I did read it. For a Long Ticket equipment is supplied, for a short ticket, which is the majority of the canon tickets, the Unit supplies its own equipment. What am I missing? Or more importantly what are you reading into that?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am trying to get a reasonable number to account for combat losses per ticket, you are adding expenses, in capital amounts, without even suffering combat loses.Stop right there. As I posted up thread, you're trying to get a reasonable number that works with your assumptions about how the merc market should work. Your assumptions and what is actually presented are not the same thing.</font>[/QUOTE]OK I am reading way into things here. Lets take that as a base here. I am forcing my frame of reference on the tickets here. On which ticket where the patron does not supply transport, there are a couple of those, does it state that the patron is responsible for covering the Mercenary Unit's loss of a tank? On which ticket does it even imply that? And if it implies it, how is it implied? Please show me where it says that a Mercenary Unit can get all shot up and not have to worry about expenses of replacing those losses. And how a TL6 world is going to replace a TL10 Tank in the first place is another issue. A Company ticket that the unit successfully fullfills, pays MCr3. During the ticket the company lost one of its MCr10 tanks. Who is responsible for replacing the tank? Even if they rent it if they lose it they are still not just out the rental fee but the price of the tank as well. Now if they have to pay to replace major end items, how is that not part of the unit's expenses?
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Instead of coming up with a theory about how the merc market works and then changing the facts to fit the preconcieved theory, I and the others here are taking what is presented at face value and are constructing a model of the merc market that fit the known facts.As opposed to your unfounded assumptions on how the Mercenary Business is handled with no basis in either the real world or the Traveller rules. Come on Bill, all you are offering is rhetoric. Do you have anything to back it up? Anything at all that says that the majority of Mercenary units are in the pocket of a Megacorp? That independent Mercenary Units are the exception not the rule?
My assumptions are misguided and unfounded. Yours are correct without any basis or evidence in the rules. Fine show me why my thoughts on this have to be wrong and yours have to be correct. (Citing references.)
[qb]Further some of the tickets clearly suggest that many of these units are independent.That can be debated.
So debate it. Show how it isn't possible using canon sources. All you are offering is your opposing view.
[QUOTE][qb]After all if they weren't independent then why would LSP hire Mercs, they could just send their own guys.Because their own guys are busy with their own jobs? Because Wackenhut is not Executive Solutions? Because they need to work through third parties for appearences sake? There are doznes of reasons.
Drop your assumptions. Take the known facts and fashion a theory that fits them, not the other way around.</font>Show these known facts. I am apparently blind. I don't see any known facts when it comes to Megacorps owning 90+% of the Mercenary trade.
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 09:33 PM
I'll even go one more step. A canon source where a Independent Mercenary Unit is based off a Starting Player Character. T20, Mustering out benefit for Mercenary Career Track: Mercenary Cruiser. Add that and enough bonus and Mustering out money and you have a Independent Mercenary Unit. (That has to make payments on a Starship.) Or am I reading too much into that?
Whipsnade
December 11th, 2006, 09:46 PM
Bruce,
I give up. Your ideas concerning the Third Imperium setting is simply too far divorced from the concensus view of the setting for any common ground to be found. You and I are debating apples and oranges.
Your complete inability to understand that tech levels in the setting are not precisely the same as tech levels in the rules is just one example of your differing view. Your inability to understand the nature of travel/comm lag imposed by jump drive or the ad hoc, 'men not laws', nature of Imperial governance are two others. Given free trade and jump drive of the setting, your thinking that knights in shining armor still exist next door to grav tanks is beyond belief. As is the idea that T-34 and Spitfire crewmen will be recruited by grav cavalry.
Even your own arguments fail to have any internal consistency. Up thread you argued that no rich person would invest in a mercenary company because it would be too risky, then in your last post you present an example of a rich merchant doing precisely that. Go figure.
My involvement in this thread is over. Have fun talking to yourself.
Finis,
Bill
I give up. Your ideas concerning the Third Imperium setting is simply too far divorced from the concensus view of the setting for any common ground to be found. You and I are debating apples and oranges.
Your complete inability to understand that tech levels in the setting are not precisely the same as tech levels in the rules is just one example of your differing view. Your inability to understand the nature of travel/comm lag imposed by jump drive or the ad hoc, 'men not laws', nature of Imperial governance are two others. Given free trade and jump drive of the setting, your thinking that knights in shining armor still exist next door to grav tanks is beyond belief. As is the idea that T-34 and Spitfire crewmen will be recruited by grav cavalry.
Even your own arguments fail to have any internal consistency. Up thread you argued that no rich person would invest in a mercenary company because it would be too risky, then in your last post you present an example of a rich merchant doing precisely that. Go figure.
My involvement in this thread is over. Have fun talking to yourself.
Finis,
Bill
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 09:56 PM
Here are the assumptions I am making.
1. A unit has to pay for its supplies, unless otherwise stated in the ticket. (There is no Ammunition Fairy that fills your empty magazines that you put under your pillow at night while you sleep.)
2. A Unit has to make a profit in order to stay in business. (One of the big reasons it has to make a profit is so it can pay shares.)
3. A Unit has to cover its Capital expenses and replace lost equipment and this has to be accounted for somehow on the bottom line. (There is no tank fairy that replaces the blown up tank that you put under your pillow while you sleep either.)
4. A Megacorporation is not going to trust anyone to do something for them if that person belongs to a rival Megacorporation. They certainly won't hand the tools over to that person and put them in a position to thwart a multi-million+ credit operation.
Known fact, at least to anyone that has served in any military unit, anywhere in the world, and should be obvious to those that work in sports or even watch sports: A Unit will work together better if they train together. The longer they train together the better they will work together. You can't take 4 strangers, regardless of how good they are individually, put them on a team, and expect them to perform as a team without time to train together.
1. A unit has to pay for its supplies, unless otherwise stated in the ticket. (There is no Ammunition Fairy that fills your empty magazines that you put under your pillow at night while you sleep.)
2. A Unit has to make a profit in order to stay in business. (One of the big reasons it has to make a profit is so it can pay shares.)
3. A Unit has to cover its Capital expenses and replace lost equipment and this has to be accounted for somehow on the bottom line. (There is no tank fairy that replaces the blown up tank that you put under your pillow while you sleep either.)
4. A Megacorporation is not going to trust anyone to do something for them if that person belongs to a rival Megacorporation. They certainly won't hand the tools over to that person and put them in a position to thwart a multi-million+ credit operation.
Known fact, at least to anyone that has served in any military unit, anywhere in the world, and should be obvious to those that work in sports or even watch sports: A Unit will work together better if they train together. The longer they train together the better they will work together. You can't take 4 strangers, regardless of how good they are individually, put them on a team, and expect them to perform as a team without time to train together.
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Bruce,
I give up. Your ideas concerning the Third Imperium setting is simply too far divorced from the concensus view of the setting for any common ground to be found. You and I are debating apples and oranges.
Your complete inability to understand that tech levels in the setting are not precisely the same as tech levels in the rules is just one example of your differing view. Your inability to understand the nature of travel/comm lag imposed by jump drive or the ad hoc, 'men not laws', nature of Imperial governance are two others. Given free trade and jump drive of the setting, your thinking that knights in shining armor still exist next door to grav tanks is beyond belief. As is the idea that T-34 and Spitfire crewmen will be recruited by grav cavalry.
Even your own arguments fail to have any internal consistency. Up thread you argued that no rich person would invest in a mercenary company because it would be too risky, then in your last post you present an example of a rich merchant doing precisely that. Go figure.
My involvement in this thread is over. Have fun talking to yourself.
Finis,
Bill So you are saying you have no rule source. No problem. I can live with that. smile.gif
And what I actually said was that investing in such a risky venture such as a Mercenary unit, has to show a faster return on the investment, which the current tickets do not appear to allow.
Bruce,
I give up. Your ideas concerning the Third Imperium setting is simply too far divorced from the concensus view of the setting for any common ground to be found. You and I are debating apples and oranges.
Your complete inability to understand that tech levels in the setting are not precisely the same as tech levels in the rules is just one example of your differing view. Your inability to understand the nature of travel/comm lag imposed by jump drive or the ad hoc, 'men not laws', nature of Imperial governance are two others. Given free trade and jump drive of the setting, your thinking that knights in shining armor still exist next door to grav tanks is beyond belief. As is the idea that T-34 and Spitfire crewmen will be recruited by grav cavalry.
Even your own arguments fail to have any internal consistency. Up thread you argued that no rich person would invest in a mercenary company because it would be too risky, then in your last post you present an example of a rich merchant doing precisely that. Go figure.
My involvement in this thread is over. Have fun talking to yourself.
Finis,
Bill So you are saying you have no rule source. No problem. I can live with that. smile.gif
And what I actually said was that investing in such a risky venture such as a Mercenary unit, has to show a faster return on the investment, which the current tickets do not appear to allow.
sid6.7
December 11th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Do I think Sternmetal would let a unit run out of ammo? Yes, I do. that is not that common, most companys arent
going to abandon someone just becuase ammo is
being used up quickly...esp. if the mercs were
winning but just using alot of ammo to win
i spuose there would be some "point"
when stern said "enough" but i dont think
it would be over ammo..it would be more
likely over the loss of tanks/planes
or heavy collateral damgage to the objective...
it would make a great twist in an adventure
though.... smile.gif
i think in the long run you've complicated
LBB4 so much it wouldnt be fun to play you've
forsaken RPG fun for realism too much...IMHO
good luck...
going to abandon someone just becuase ammo is
being used up quickly...esp. if the mercs were
winning but just using alot of ammo to win
i spuose there would be some "point"
when stern said "enough" but i dont think
it would be over ammo..it would be more
likely over the loss of tanks/planes
or heavy collateral damgage to the objective...
it would make a great twist in an adventure
though.... smile.gif
i think in the long run you've complicated
LBB4 so much it wouldnt be fun to play you've
forsaken RPG fun for realism too much...IMHO
good luck...
BetterThanLife
December 11th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do I think Sternmetal would let a unit run out of ammo? Yes, I do. that is not that common, most companys arent
going to abandon someone just becuase ammo is
being used up quickly...esp. if the mercs were
winning but just using alot of ammo to win
i spuose there would be some "point"
when stern said "enough" but i dont think
it would be over ammo..it would be more
likely over the loss of tanks/planes
or heavy collateral damgage to the objective...
it would make a great twist in an adventure
though.... smile.gif
i think in the long run you've complicated
LBB4 so much it wouldnt be fun to play you've
forsaken RPG fun for realism too much...IMHO
good luck... </font>[/QUOTE]Actually Sid, I am trying to figure the realism so that the background is consistent. I find when Refereeing a campaign, it is best to have the background in place and working before the game begins. That makes the Roleplaying easier and believable. If it the setting is solid then you can worry about the exceptions. Just like trying to make a living on with a Tramp freighter, the ship has to be inherently profitable before you start running it.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Do I think Sternmetal would let a unit run out of ammo? Yes, I do. that is not that common, most companys arent
going to abandon someone just becuase ammo is
being used up quickly...esp. if the mercs were
winning but just using alot of ammo to win
i spuose there would be some "point"
when stern said "enough" but i dont think
it would be over ammo..it would be more
likely over the loss of tanks/planes
or heavy collateral damgage to the objective...
it would make a great twist in an adventure
though.... smile.gif
i think in the long run you've complicated
LBB4 so much it wouldnt be fun to play you've
forsaken RPG fun for realism too much...IMHO
good luck... </font>[/QUOTE]Actually Sid, I am trying to figure the realism so that the background is consistent. I find when Refereeing a campaign, it is best to have the background in place and working before the game begins. That makes the Roleplaying easier and believable. If it the setting is solid then you can worry about the exceptions. Just like trying to make a living on with a Tramp freighter, the ship has to be inherently profitable before you start running it.
Liam Devlin
December 12th, 2006, 04:47 AM
Moderator mode on:
When the rules, and the books let me down, I make something up that makes sense to me and the players. Trying to make square pegs fit into round holes requires sandpaper at the very least, last time I checked, or a really BIG hammer.
For real- world realism, if its THAT much effort, look to the research Frederick Forsythe (UK author) went to when writing the book "The Dogs Of War".
The author went and hired a bunch of mercs, rented the boat, did everything leading up to the ops/ job, and then wrote the rest and sailed away. of course, after his smash hit "Day of the Jackal" he had some cash, and this was 1965..
Moderator mode off:
Thank you gentleman for the time of day, and being civil.
as ever was...
When the rules, and the books let me down, I make something up that makes sense to me and the players. Trying to make square pegs fit into round holes requires sandpaper at the very least, last time I checked, or a really BIG hammer.
For real- world realism, if its THAT much effort, look to the research Frederick Forsythe (UK author) went to when writing the book "The Dogs Of War".
The author went and hired a bunch of mercs, rented the boat, did everything leading up to the ops/ job, and then wrote the rest and sailed away. of course, after his smash hit "Day of the Jackal" he had some cash, and this was 1965..
Moderator mode off:
Thank you gentleman for the time of day, and being civil.
as ever was...
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