BetterThanLife
February 20th, 2005, 09:37 AM
I have been thinking about the K'kree. (Since I have decided to run my new campaign in the Gateway Domain.) I really don't get it.
How does an intelligent race, that is Claustrophobic, and will not travel alone, go to space in the first place? Thinking of the early days of space travel and the economic resources required just to put two people on the moon (and all that lead up to that) how would that work with a Creature that can't bring themselves to get into something like a 4 seat car. How do you form a Military, that can deal significant losses, against other races, without AFVs? (No matter how good light infantry may be, they would still have to deal with the mobility, firepower and protection of tanks.)
But the big question is how do you have a race survive as herbivores when they exterminate all carnivores/omnivores in an Eco system?
How does an intelligent race, that is Claustrophobic, and will not travel alone, go to space in the first place? Thinking of the early days of space travel and the economic resources required just to put two people on the moon (and all that lead up to that) how would that work with a Creature that can't bring themselves to get into something like a 4 seat car. How do you form a Military, that can deal significant losses, against other races, without AFVs? (No matter how good light infantry may be, they would still have to deal with the mobility, firepower and protection of tanks.)
But the big question is how do you have a race survive as herbivores when they exterminate all carnivores/omnivores in an Eco system?
Flynn
February 20th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Maybe they had outside help... perhaps this is one of the mysteries of Traveller that hasn't been revealed as yet. ;)
Anything that doesn't make sense at first blush probably has an underlying reason for its existence somewhere. What that reason is may vary from campaign to campaign, but you have the freedom to come up with it for your game. smile.gif
Who knows? Somehow they did, and probably not by thinking about problems like we do. Perhaps they are older as a society than we are, and all of this has occurred in its own time.
Or maybe, like the Droyne, there was once an aberration, a mutant, without the claustrophobic tendencies, a real super genius...
Just kidding,
Flynn
Anything that doesn't make sense at first blush probably has an underlying reason for its existence somewhere. What that reason is may vary from campaign to campaign, but you have the freedom to come up with it for your game. smile.gif
Who knows? Somehow they did, and probably not by thinking about problems like we do. Perhaps they are older as a society than we are, and all of this has occurred in its own time.
Or maybe, like the Droyne, there was once an aberration, a mutant, without the claustrophobic tendencies, a real super genius...
Just kidding,
Flynn
mike wightman
February 20th, 2005, 10:28 AM
Just to establish where you are coming from on this, have you read through CT AM2 and GT AR2?
Piper
February 20th, 2005, 10:44 AM
From JTAS 10, Contact! Centaurs:
In reference to their claustrophobia: "Through training and discipline, some individuals (AFV crews, starship pilots, and so on) are able to overcome this phobia."
Humans are social primates yet even we have trouble with prolonged isolation. Solitary confinement is usually considered a punishment and the effects of long-term isolation are an issue for manned space missions. K'kree may select vehicle crews from individuals who have a higher tolerance for loneliness and then enhance this through training. I wonder if vehicle crews would be considered elite because of this, or would they be treated as a lower caste?
As to predator elimination, herbivore doesn't always mean "free lunch". imagine what a herd of musk oxen would do with hands and intelligence.
Definitely moves the wolf to "underdog" status. :D
In reference to their claustrophobia: "Through training and discipline, some individuals (AFV crews, starship pilots, and so on) are able to overcome this phobia."
Humans are social primates yet even we have trouble with prolonged isolation. Solitary confinement is usually considered a punishment and the effects of long-term isolation are an issue for manned space missions. K'kree may select vehicle crews from individuals who have a higher tolerance for loneliness and then enhance this through training. I wonder if vehicle crews would be considered elite because of this, or would they be treated as a lower caste?
As to predator elimination, herbivore doesn't always mean "free lunch". imagine what a herd of musk oxen would do with hands and intelligence.
Definitely moves the wolf to "underdog" status. :D
Andrew Boulton
February 20th, 2005, 11:01 AM
Claustrophobia can be overcome using drugs and technology.
As a race, they're obsessed with making the universe safe for them to live in (basically by exterminating everyone who could be a threat, especially carnivores).
"Service to those of superior caste is almost automatic... The good of the family, the herd, and, by extension, the race, outweighs personal considerations. ...they do their given job
to the best of their ability, for as long as that job needs to be done."
- AM2, p4
As a race, they're obsessed with making the universe safe for them to live in (basically by exterminating everyone who could be a threat, especially carnivores).
"Service to those of superior caste is almost automatic... The good of the family, the herd, and, by extension, the race, outweighs personal considerations. ...they do their given job
to the best of their ability, for as long as that job needs to be done."
- AM2, p4
mike wightman
February 20th, 2005, 11:24 AM
They didn't begin to explore space until after they'd invented the grav based drive.
The first spacefarers and AFV crews were selected from the "insane" K'kree.
Many of their smallcraft and AFV's are remote contolled, as are the engineering compartments on many of their ships.
The first spacefarers and AFV crews were selected from the "insane" K'kree.
Many of their smallcraft and AFV's are remote contolled, as are the engineering compartments on many of their ships.
daryen
February 20th, 2005, 11:31 AM
Don't forget the G'naak on their habitable moon. When the K'Kree found G'naak on the moon, their entire space effort was based on the desire to get to the moon to get rid of the G'naak.
Unless I am mis-remembering something.
The question I have is how, after removing all carnivorous species, there ecosystems don't just collapse. If all creatures that eat other creatures is removed, then the ecosystem will collapse quickly and efficiently. How come all of their worlds don't have collapsed (or worse) ecosystems?
Unless I am mis-remembering something.
The question I have is how, after removing all carnivorous species, there ecosystems don't just collapse. If all creatures that eat other creatures is removed, then the ecosystem will collapse quickly and efficiently. How come all of their worlds don't have collapsed (or worse) ecosystems?
mike wightman
February 20th, 2005, 02:43 PM
GT AR2 explains that the K'kree used poisons and other methods to erradicate the problem. They did cause huge enrironmental damage, which resulted on them building huge domes over their cities while the environmental problems were overcome.
Then came their discovery of the G'naak on their moon and the genocide that followed.
I don't think the K'kree show anymore qualms over killing off competing omnivores/herbivores than they do in killing carnivores. If you are a thret to the herd then you are (erradicated from) history.
Then came their discovery of the G'naak on their moon and the genocide that followed.
I don't think the K'kree show anymore qualms over killing off competing omnivores/herbivores than they do in killing carnivores. If you are a thret to the herd then you are (erradicated from) history.
daryen
February 20th, 2005, 08:43 PM
Which is why I am amazed that the humans and Vargr don't seem to fully realize what they are up against.
The Vargr, especially, should eradicate the K'kree infestation on their side of the rift with impunity. Cleanse the worlds if necessary, but get the K'kree back across the rift at all costs.
(Well, not really. We humans have an uncanny ability to ignore danger, especially long term danger, if we don't have to deal with it RIGHT NOW.)
The Vargr, especially, should eradicate the K'kree infestation on their side of the rift with impunity. Cleanse the worlds if necessary, but get the K'kree back across the rift at all costs.
(Well, not really. We humans have an uncanny ability to ignore danger, especially long term danger, if we don't have to deal with it RIGHT NOW.)
jwcarroll60
February 20th, 2005, 10:13 PM
It could be called the Great Hunt, as packs of Vargr roam their environs, flushing out, pursing and killing the K'Kree.
Maybe the British nobility from Terra could get involved. It would be a replacement for the Fox Hunt.
Maybe the British nobility from Terra could get involved. It would be a replacement for the Fox Hunt.
Malenfant
February 20th, 2005, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by jwcarroll60:
Maybe the British nobility from Terra could get involved. It would be a replacement for the Fox Hunt. You realise that as of this week (I think), fox hunting with dogs is now banned in the UK? They'd have to have a really long memory to want to do that again, and I suspect the Vargr wouldn't like it too much smile.gif
Maybe the British nobility from Terra could get involved. It would be a replacement for the Fox Hunt. You realise that as of this week (I think), fox hunting with dogs is now banned in the UK? They'd have to have a really long memory to want to do that again, and I suspect the Vargr wouldn't like it too much smile.gif
alanb
February 20th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by daryen:
The Vargr, especially, should eradicate the K'kree infestation on their side of the rift with impunity. Cleanse the worlds if necessary, but get the K'kree back across the rift at all costs.
The Vargr would have trouble getting (and maintaining) a big enough coalition together. Especially since they would be fighting the _entire_ might of the Two Thousand Worlds.
Basically, such an attempt would paint them as predators in the eyes of the K'kree, and put them at the very top of the "To Be Exterminated - NOW!!" list.
I suspect that there's a Vargr proverb or two to the effect of "Only a fool raids the K'kree". It would have overtones of "Being an a**hole is not charismatic".
The Vargr, especially, should eradicate the K'kree infestation on their side of the rift with impunity. Cleanse the worlds if necessary, but get the K'kree back across the rift at all costs.
The Vargr would have trouble getting (and maintaining) a big enough coalition together. Especially since they would be fighting the _entire_ might of the Two Thousand Worlds.
Basically, such an attempt would paint them as predators in the eyes of the K'kree, and put them at the very top of the "To Be Exterminated - NOW!!" list.
I suspect that there's a Vargr proverb or two to the effect of "Only a fool raids the K'kree". It would have overtones of "Being an a**hole is not charismatic".
BetterThanLife
February 21st, 2005, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Just to establish where you are coming from on this, have you read through CT AM2 and GT AR2? Yes I have read AM2. THough I haven't read the GT equivalent.
Just to establish where you are coming from on this, have you read through CT AM2 and GT AR2? Yes I have read AM2. THough I haven't read the GT equivalent.
BetterThanLife
February 21st, 2005, 01:04 AM
Here is the Eco System problem. Not take to the extreme of eliminating all the carnivors, just thinning the bigger ones to the point where they will have little chance to help with the balance.
In Upstate NY, with the virtual elimination of the Mountain Lion and the Wolf, deer roam virtually unchecked, except for man. When a local deer population has enough food for half the herd to survive the winter, instead of half the herd surviving the winter, all the deer eat for half the winter then they all starve.
Rabbits, breeding without predators would quickly overrun the food supply. Sheep, Deer, Cattle, Horses, Giraffe, even elephants. Without the thinning effect of Predators and Omnivores the Eco System would quickly collapse as the Herbivores quickly overpopulate then strip out all the vegitation. It may take a few years, but my guess is a year maybe two tops. (Basically one winter after a year of unrestricted breeding and growth.)
The other herbavores would be just as big a threat to K'kree existence as carnivores. Though not by eating K'kree but by eating the food supply.
(Assuming tha they can eat the same food supply but that is a whole different can of worms.)
Now there may be no other herbivores on the K'kree home world that would thump like bunnies, because of the lack of predators, but once they got to otehr worlds, with other ecosystems......
In Upstate NY, with the virtual elimination of the Mountain Lion and the Wolf, deer roam virtually unchecked, except for man. When a local deer population has enough food for half the herd to survive the winter, instead of half the herd surviving the winter, all the deer eat for half the winter then they all starve.
Rabbits, breeding without predators would quickly overrun the food supply. Sheep, Deer, Cattle, Horses, Giraffe, even elephants. Without the thinning effect of Predators and Omnivores the Eco System would quickly collapse as the Herbivores quickly overpopulate then strip out all the vegitation. It may take a few years, but my guess is a year maybe two tops. (Basically one winter after a year of unrestricted breeding and growth.)
The other herbavores would be just as big a threat to K'kree existence as carnivores. Though not by eating K'kree but by eating the food supply.
(Assuming tha they can eat the same food supply but that is a whole different can of worms.)
Now there may be no other herbivores on the K'kree home world that would thump like bunnies, because of the lack of predators, but once they got to otehr worlds, with other ecosystems......
mike wightman
February 21st, 2005, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jwcarroll60:
Maybe the British nobility from Terra could get involved. It would be a replacement for the Fox Hunt. You realise that as of this week (I think), fox hunting with dogs is now banned in the UK? They'd have to have a really long memory to want to do that again, and I suspect the Vargr wouldn't like it too much smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]It's actually business as usual ;)
There were as many hunts on Saturday (250 hunts, at least 91 confirmed dead foxes) as there were on the last day for legal hunting.
Besides - the aristos can always cross the channel and hunt in France, or go to the USA where they can stable their horses.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jwcarroll60:
Maybe the British nobility from Terra could get involved. It would be a replacement for the Fox Hunt. You realise that as of this week (I think), fox hunting with dogs is now banned in the UK? They'd have to have a really long memory to want to do that again, and I suspect the Vargr wouldn't like it too much smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]It's actually business as usual ;)
There were as many hunts on Saturday (250 hunts, at least 91 confirmed dead foxes) as there were on the last day for legal hunting.
Besides - the aristos can always cross the channel and hunt in France, or go to the USA where they can stable their horses.
mike wightman
February 21st, 2005, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Just to establish where you are coming from on this, have you read through CT AM2 and GT AR2? Yes I have read AM2. THough I haven't read the GT equivalent. </font>[/QUOTE]The GT AR book does a much better job of fleshing out K'kree history.
It's well worth getting IMHO.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Just to establish where you are coming from on this, have you read through CT AM2 and GT AR2? Yes I have read AM2. THough I haven't read the GT equivalent. </font>[/QUOTE]The GT AR book does a much better job of fleshing out K'kree history.
It's well worth getting IMHO.
mike wightman
February 21st, 2005, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now there may be no other herbivores on the K'kree home world that would thump like bunnies, because of the lack of predators, but once they got to otehr worlds, with other ecosystems...... They would Kirurform the planet - the bunnies, deer, etc. type creatures would be exterminated as pests.
Now there may be no other herbivores on the K'kree home world that would thump like bunnies, because of the lack of predators, but once they got to otehr worlds, with other ecosystems...... They would Kirurform the planet - the bunnies, deer, etc. type creatures would be exterminated as pests.
BetterThanLife
February 21st, 2005, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now there may be no other herbivores on the K'kree home world that would thump like bunnies, because of the lack of predators, but once they got to otehr worlds, with other ecosystems...... They would Kirurform the planet - the bunnies, deer, etc. type creatures would be exterminated as pests. </font>[/QUOTE]So we are no longer just destroying all Carnivores but all life that isn't K'kree?
I think the Imperium, or better yet the Hivers, should make sure the Aslan know this. Then with Imperium and Hiver assistance offer 50% of the 2000 worlds to the Aslan. Instead of a colation that may fall apart with the Vargr, you have a highly motivated, highly disciplined race of Carnivores going after the K'kree. One would think that the Aslan would be the Galaxy's natural answer to the K'kree. smile.gif
I think the K'kree manifest destiny would come to a very quick and bloody end.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Now there may be no other herbivores on the K'kree home world that would thump like bunnies, because of the lack of predators, but once they got to otehr worlds, with other ecosystems...... They would Kirurform the planet - the bunnies, deer, etc. type creatures would be exterminated as pests. </font>[/QUOTE]So we are no longer just destroying all Carnivores but all life that isn't K'kree?
I think the Imperium, or better yet the Hivers, should make sure the Aslan know this. Then with Imperium and Hiver assistance offer 50% of the 2000 worlds to the Aslan. Instead of a colation that may fall apart with the Vargr, you have a highly motivated, highly disciplined race of Carnivores going after the K'kree. One would think that the Aslan would be the Galaxy's natural answer to the K'kree. smile.gif
I think the K'kree manifest destiny would come to a very quick and bloody end.
Piper
February 21st, 2005, 01:17 PM
If the K'kree really are that xenophobic, perhaps the other races should join in to send the "2000 Worlds" 2000 planet-busters.
I wonder what a few 100-kiloton planetoids would do when crashed into a planet?
Pity to waste all that real estate, though. ;)
I wonder what a few 100-kiloton planetoids would do when crashed into a planet?
Pity to waste all that real estate, though. ;)
mike wightman
February 21st, 2005, 01:18 PM
All life that is a threat to K'kree.
Enlightened environmentalists eventually realised the importance of ecosystems, but, considering their method of conquest, I don't think the K'kree are too bothered about there being only two forms of multicellular life in the galaxy.
K'kree and grass... ;) graemlins/file_23.gif
Enlightened environmentalists eventually realised the importance of ecosystems, but, considering their method of conquest, I don't think the K'kree are too bothered about there being only two forms of multicellular life in the galaxy.
K'kree and grass... ;) graemlins/file_23.gif
Andrew Boulton
February 21st, 2005, 02:11 PM
The Imperium really can't afford to start a war with the K'Kree. First, it would be too expensive (more like the Rim War than the relatively small Frontier Wars), and second it would mean pulling ships away from the Zho and Sol borders.
BetterThanLife
February 21st, 2005, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
The Imperium really can't afford to start a war with the K'Kree. First, it would be too expensive (more like the Rim War than the relatively small Frontier Wars), and second it would mean pulling ships away from the Zho and Sol borders. First of all the Imperium doesn't ahve to start a war with teh K'kree, war has already been declared, whether the Imperium realizes it or not.
Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree you are providing back up, some fleet elements, escorts and some Marine Strikers to soften up hard targets. I am sure you could get cooperation from the Zhodani, since it would be relieving their border from Ihaeti, It would relieve pressure to Spinward and Rimward of the Imperium, and the Hivers would cooperate with shock troops contributed as well. (And the Aslan would be happy to have places to send Ihaeti, even without the K'kree saying they want to exterminate them.)
The Imperium really can't afford to start a war with the K'Kree. First, it would be too expensive (more like the Rim War than the relatively small Frontier Wars), and second it would mean pulling ships away from the Zho and Sol borders. First of all the Imperium doesn't ahve to start a war with teh K'kree, war has already been declared, whether the Imperium realizes it or not.
Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree you are providing back up, some fleet elements, escorts and some Marine Strikers to soften up hard targets. I am sure you could get cooperation from the Zhodani, since it would be relieving their border from Ihaeti, It would relieve pressure to Spinward and Rimward of the Imperium, and the Hivers would cooperate with shock troops contributed as well. (And the Aslan would be happy to have places to send Ihaeti, even without the K'kree saying they want to exterminate them.)
kafka47
February 21st, 2005, 02:43 PM
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.
Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...
Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...
Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
Andrew Boulton
February 21st, 2005, 03:09 PM
"Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree"
There are 7 sectors between them. Call it 270 parsecs. Assuming J-3, 2 weeks/jump, that's nearly 3.5 years just to get there.
There are 7 sectors between them. Call it 270 parsecs. Assuming J-3, 2 weeks/jump, that's nearly 3.5 years just to get there.
daryen
February 21st, 2005, 03:32 PM
Andrew,
kafka has already shown the solution to the transportation problem.
Just ship in ihatei (a few million to start should be enough) and then set them against the Lords of Thunder. It's small, it's isolated, and the 2000 Worlds likely doesn't care what happens to them.
After the Lords of Thunder finally become the Plates of Meat, then the Aslan have a perfect launching pad into the 2000 Worlds proper.
Yes, this is a (very) long term process, but that's OK. It keeps the Aslan busy, it keeps the most meddlesome K'kree busy. Heck, it probably even keeps the minor human states busy. And if you play it right, it becomes a fairly one-way trip, which allows the Imperium to try and do a little "manipulation" on the Aslan over that time, too.
So, after a century, the Imperium gains a large (billion+) friendly Aslan state populated with less anal-retentive Aslan.
kafka has already shown the solution to the transportation problem.
Just ship in ihatei (a few million to start should be enough) and then set them against the Lords of Thunder. It's small, it's isolated, and the 2000 Worlds likely doesn't care what happens to them.
After the Lords of Thunder finally become the Plates of Meat, then the Aslan have a perfect launching pad into the 2000 Worlds proper.
Yes, this is a (very) long term process, but that's OK. It keeps the Aslan busy, it keeps the most meddlesome K'kree busy. Heck, it probably even keeps the minor human states busy. And if you play it right, it becomes a fairly one-way trip, which allows the Imperium to try and do a little "manipulation" on the Aslan over that time, too.
So, after a century, the Imperium gains a large (billion+) friendly Aslan state populated with less anal-retentive Aslan.
Blue Ghost
February 22nd, 2005, 01:56 AM
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial navy would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.
Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.
A ground war on the other hand... smile.gif
Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.
A ground war on the other hand... smile.gif
veltyen
February 22nd, 2005, 02:53 AM
A handful of fanatics can do things that armies only dream of acheiving.
Sure some of the Imperial Navy is fanatical, but most are thinking of promotion and/or retirement.
A standup war can only get out of hand. For some reason I see the K'kree extensively virus bombing large population centres.
Sure some of the Imperial Navy is fanatical, but most are thinking of promotion and/or retirement.
A standup war can only get out of hand. For some reason I see the K'kree extensively virus bombing large population centres.
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 09:09 AM
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
"Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree"
There are 7 sectors between them. Call it 270 parsecs. Assuming J-3, 2 weeks/jump, that's nearly 3.5 years just to get there. Ihaeti routinely travel in Low Berth. 3.5 years-10 years, there is land at the other end. Does it really matter? The Imperium could easily absorb the cost and relieve the pressure on the Spinward Marches, Reaver's Deep and several other sectors. At the same time you would be using the Aslan as a cat's paw against fanatics that are not viable in the first place. Kill all the carnivores. And tehy think that Humans are ecological disasters here on Terra. (And they make claims of global warming when the Earth goes through cycles naturally and it was warmer before the industrial revolution than it is now. smile.gif )
"Second, if you sic the Aslan Ihatei on the K'kree"
There are 7 sectors between them. Call it 270 parsecs. Assuming J-3, 2 weeks/jump, that's nearly 3.5 years just to get there. Ihaeti routinely travel in Low Berth. 3.5 years-10 years, there is land at the other end. Does it really matter? The Imperium could easily absorb the cost and relieve the pressure on the Spinward Marches, Reaver's Deep and several other sectors. At the same time you would be using the Aslan as a cat's paw against fanatics that are not viable in the first place. Kill all the carnivores. And tehy think that Humans are ecological disasters here on Terra. (And they make claims of global warming when the Earth goes through cycles naturally and it was warmer before the industrial revolution than it is now. smile.gif )
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.
Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.
A ground war on the other hand... smile.gif TL15 Battledress, Tanks and APCs against lightly armored, light infantry? In open plains, because the K'kree don't inhabit airless rocks. I mean if it were a closed environment, or even city fighting then light infantry might have some chance, but on the steppes? Like the desert that is Tank country. The Imperium/Aslan/Hivers could use the rockball systems as staging areas, where the K'kree would have problems dislodging them and either use armor warfare or herbicide on the K'kree planets. Hell K'kree don't even like putting on vacsuits, even if they had them handy they would take a while to put on. A little VX goes a long way.
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.
Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.
A ground war on the other hand... smile.gif TL15 Battledress, Tanks and APCs against lightly armored, light infantry? In open plains, because the K'kree don't inhabit airless rocks. I mean if it were a closed environment, or even city fighting then light infantry might have some chance, but on the steppes? Like the desert that is Tank country. The Imperium/Aslan/Hivers could use the rockball systems as staging areas, where the K'kree would have problems dislodging them and either use armor warfare or herbicide on the K'kree planets. Hell K'kree don't even like putting on vacsuits, even if they had them handy they would take a while to put on. A little VX goes a long way.
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by kafka47:
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.
Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...
Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.
Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...
Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate...
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 09:27 AM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kafka47:
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.
Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...
Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate... </font>[/QUOTE]Profit after a dietary adjustment to eliminate meat in the diet? How does this work? With no more carnivores in the ecosystem, the circle of life comes to an end. Carcasses litter the ground, disease runs rampant, prolific herbivores populate unchecked, even the not so prolific herbavores continue unchecked. The sick and lame are not culled from the herds. Inferior genes are allowed to breed. The food supply gets ravaged, natural selection takes a holiday, everything dies. Believe it or not carnivores and omnivoores (yes that includes man) have a place in the ecosystem, actually an important place in the system. Now some planets may not need, due to natural conditions on that planet, carnivores or omnivores, but I would be willing to bet those planets are the very rare exception not the rule.
To quote Disney, "It is all a part of the great circle of life."
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kafka47:
Ah, I think that you assume that the Imperium would not have a vested interest in maintaining the Cold War between the Hivers & K'kree. The Imperium perhaps is doing a manipulation of its own by allowing the Hivers to continue to develop Robot & Computer tech to keep the K'kree in line.
Plus, whilst the Imperium would know where the Stars are...they would not have an easy battle fight to take the battle to Kirur. Many of the races under the K'kree have actually benefited once the dietary adjustments have been made. Also talking about supply lines...remember the Imperial strategy is geared toward long term warfare...
Plus, I am sure a war would only cause greater defection to the Lords of Thunder which would gladly take it upon themselves for a Holy War in Gateway...I am sure Quicklink has thought of how bring the fall of Gateway and then the rest of the Imperium border regions about by 1248. More I can only speculate about the nature of the Dominate... </font>[/QUOTE]Profit after a dietary adjustment to eliminate meat in the diet? How does this work? With no more carnivores in the ecosystem, the circle of life comes to an end. Carcasses litter the ground, disease runs rampant, prolific herbivores populate unchecked, even the not so prolific herbavores continue unchecked. The sick and lame are not culled from the herds. Inferior genes are allowed to breed. The food supply gets ravaged, natural selection takes a holiday, everything dies. Believe it or not carnivores and omnivoores (yes that includes man) have a place in the ecosystem, actually an important place in the system. Now some planets may not need, due to natural conditions on that planet, carnivores or omnivores, but I would be willing to bet those planets are the very rare exception not the rule.
To quote Disney, "It is all a part of the great circle of life."
rancke
February 22nd, 2005, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
To quote Disney, "It is all a part of the great circle of life." Except the hyenas. :D
Hans
To quote Disney, "It is all a part of the great circle of life." Except the hyenas. :D
Hans
kafka47
February 22nd, 2005, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Profit after a dietary adjustment to eliminate meat in the diet? How does this work? With no more carnivores in the ecosystem, the circle of life comes to an end. Carcasses litter the ground, disease runs rampant, prolific herbivores populate unchecked, even the not so prolific herbavores continue unchecked. The sick and lame are not culled from the herds. Inferior genes are allowed to breed. The food supply gets ravaged, natural selection takes a holiday, everything dies. Believe it or not carnivores and omnivoores (yes that includes man) have a place in the ecosystem, actually an important place in the system. Now some planets may not need, due to natural conditions on that planet, carnivores or omnivores, but I would be willing to bet those planets are the very rare exception not the rule.
Now, this is not supported by Canon but commonsense. After depopulating many world around Kirur this way including their own satellite. The K'kree recognize the error of their fundamentalist beliefs (they are an intelligent species, afterall) through selective bioengineering they develop particular strains of bacteria that would act as reducers and restrain carnivores (in the animal world) but not eliminate. Seeing that they are a conservative species, they take the mandate to conserve very seriously. However, are as ruthless the Solomani when it comes to something that threatens their existance. Perhaps, they are the Australians of Chartered Space...
They do learn that most intelligent species when faced with the option extermination or conversion to a vegetarian diet that the K'kree as noted above have perfected through their careful studies of botany and cookery over 2000 Worlds to ensure an a healthy alternative. (Beer & Vegetarian pizza are better than being blown away, I ought think)
Therefore, think of placid landscapes/planetscapes where flora & fauna are meticuliously manicured as in an English estate, as opposed to a Russian estate of 18-19th century and you get the idea. Organized hunts of carnivores are done for sport whilst graceful herbivores are maintained.
Profit after a dietary adjustment to eliminate meat in the diet? How does this work? With no more carnivores in the ecosystem, the circle of life comes to an end. Carcasses litter the ground, disease runs rampant, prolific herbivores populate unchecked, even the not so prolific herbavores continue unchecked. The sick and lame are not culled from the herds. Inferior genes are allowed to breed. The food supply gets ravaged, natural selection takes a holiday, everything dies. Believe it or not carnivores and omnivoores (yes that includes man) have a place in the ecosystem, actually an important place in the system. Now some planets may not need, due to natural conditions on that planet, carnivores or omnivores, but I would be willing to bet those planets are the very rare exception not the rule.
Now, this is not supported by Canon but commonsense. After depopulating many world around Kirur this way including their own satellite. The K'kree recognize the error of their fundamentalist beliefs (they are an intelligent species, afterall) through selective bioengineering they develop particular strains of bacteria that would act as reducers and restrain carnivores (in the animal world) but not eliminate. Seeing that they are a conservative species, they take the mandate to conserve very seriously. However, are as ruthless the Solomani when it comes to something that threatens their existance. Perhaps, they are the Australians of Chartered Space...
They do learn that most intelligent species when faced with the option extermination or conversion to a vegetarian diet that the K'kree as noted above have perfected through their careful studies of botany and cookery over 2000 Worlds to ensure an a healthy alternative. (Beer & Vegetarian pizza are better than being blown away, I ought think)
Therefore, think of placid landscapes/planetscapes where flora & fauna are meticuliously manicured as in an English estate, as opposed to a Russian estate of 18-19th century and you get the idea. Organized hunts of carnivores are done for sport whilst graceful herbivores are maintained.
The Oz
February 22nd, 2005, 10:58 AM
IMTU I chose to reduce the K'Kree claustrophobia and herd behavior to make them a more serious threat. They still have these traits but they're not as strong and the K'Kree can more easily deal with them via technology.
I also made them a little more subtle in their approach to meat-eaters: they don't necessarily shoot them on sight, but they still intend to wipe them all out.
I also made them a little more subtle in their approach to meat-eaters: they don't necessarily shoot them on sight, but they still intend to wipe them all out.
Andrew Boulton
February 22nd, 2005, 11:41 AM
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.
Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.
Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.
Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option.
kafka47
February 22nd, 2005, 12:14 PM
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. And, if this would be logistically feasible...think of the price that would be paid. The Imperium is still paying for the foolhardy use of the Vargr by the Vilani.
The honor debt alone would place such a burden on Imperial finances that it the 3I would be one enormous Vassal State of the Hierate...
The honor debt alone would place such a burden on Imperial finances that it the 3I would be one enormous Vassal State of the Hierate...
Blue Ghost
February 22nd, 2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.
Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.
A ground war on the other hand... smile.gif TL15 Battledress, Tanks and APCs against lightly armored, light infantry? In open plains, because the K'kree don't inhabit airless rocks. I mean if it were a closed environment, or even city fighting then light infantry might have some chance, but on the steppes? Like the desert that is Tank country. The Imperium/Aslan/Hivers could use the rockball systems as staging areas, where the K'kree would have problems dislodging them and either use armor warfare or herbicide on the K'kree planets. Hell K'kree don't even like putting on vacsuits, even if they had them handy they would take a while to put on. A little VX goes a long way. </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, but just how lightly armored are the K'Kree? I boned up on them last night and according to the GT/AR2 they tend to carry a lot of protection and firepower per soldier; not quite an APC, but certainly more than a match for single Imperial grunt I would think (TL15 BD or no). smile.gif That's just my impression, but you've got a point about the K'Kree's limited ability and will to take airless bodies. I guess it would depened on how many regiments or divisions of "crazies" they could call up to fight. I think the book mentioned something about them having 40 million under arms. If one in ten is a "crazy," then that means 400,000 walking tanks (think WW2 Japanese mini-tanks here), backed up by their massive Grav-tanks.
But, like you implied, and like the book states, the K'Kree prefer to put themselves into favorable fighting situations, which themselves are difficult to achieve.
All I know is that I always wanted to pit one of my gaming groops against a K'Kree force, but none of us had the K'Kree alien modual at the time (it was sold out, or something). It would've been interesting graemlins/file_23.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Blue Ghost:
Based on what I've read about both navies I'd think the Imperial would utterly crush the combined K'Kree fleets, if they so chose. I think the only thing keeping them from doing so is probably a lack of political resolve, and the expense of sending a major fighting force across the rift.
Otherwise there're more than enough fleets. Heck, if you look at the Imperial Navy distribution (I think it's in MT's Referee's Comanion... not really sure) every sector and subsector has a fleet of somekind. Based on what's said about the K'Kree fleets (and the quality of the ships themselves) I don't think it'd be a contest.
A ground war on the other hand... smile.gif TL15 Battledress, Tanks and APCs against lightly armored, light infantry? In open plains, because the K'kree don't inhabit airless rocks. I mean if it were a closed environment, or even city fighting then light infantry might have some chance, but on the steppes? Like the desert that is Tank country. The Imperium/Aslan/Hivers could use the rockball systems as staging areas, where the K'kree would have problems dislodging them and either use armor warfare or herbicide on the K'kree planets. Hell K'kree don't even like putting on vacsuits, even if they had them handy they would take a while to put on. A little VX goes a long way. </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, but just how lightly armored are the K'Kree? I boned up on them last night and according to the GT/AR2 they tend to carry a lot of protection and firepower per soldier; not quite an APC, but certainly more than a match for single Imperial grunt I would think (TL15 BD or no). smile.gif That's just my impression, but you've got a point about the K'Kree's limited ability and will to take airless bodies. I guess it would depened on how many regiments or divisions of "crazies" they could call up to fight. I think the book mentioned something about them having 40 million under arms. If one in ten is a "crazy," then that means 400,000 walking tanks (think WW2 Japanese mini-tanks here), backed up by their massive Grav-tanks.
But, like you implied, and like the book states, the K'Kree prefer to put themselves into favorable fighting situations, which themselves are difficult to achieve.
All I know is that I always wanted to pit one of my gaming groops against a K'Kree force, but none of us had the K'Kree alien modual at the time (it was sold out, or something). It would've been interesting graemlins/file_23.gif
Whipsnade
February 22nd, 2005, 12:16 PM
Bhoins,
As mentioned by other, you really need to read about the K'Kree in GT:AR. Most of your questions are answered there.
Why did the K'Kree go into space? CT and MT's 'Lords of Thunder' explain that: They were afraid of being eaten. In LoT, the PC's pass down a museum of sorts aboard the G'naak generation ship. Charming videos showing K'Kree being hunted and eaten alive are presented. Once G'naak society on Kirur fell and/or was beaten by the K'Kree, the moon above was still full of those delightful critters. That's a good enough reason to go into space, don't you think?
As for the idea that the K'Kree are still on the 'warpath' somehow, I'm afraid that idea fails even basic scruntiny. They haven't expanded since the Hiver War, they're spread painfully thin across their empire, their worlds are ecological shambles held together by constant effort, and they can barely keep the lid on the territory they already hold and then only by means of genocide.
I'm no K'kree supporter, far from it actually, but the idea that they as a group somehow pose a threat to the other major races is laughable. GT:AR even mentions refugee societies of various g'naak flushed from the 2000 Worlds still 'holding out' on multi-world polities to trailing of the K'Kree. If the Steppelords are as powerful as you believe, why are those worlds still living?
GT:AR also presents the K'Kree trans-rift enclave from the point of view of the Vargr it faces. Put simply, that enclave is a prison that the K'kree cannot expand from and can only maintain at great effort. It is in the best interest of the Vargr that the K'Kree remain stuck to that particular 'tar baby'.
The idea of allowing ihatei to transit the Imperium in order to carve out new lands among the 200 Worlds is a non-starter. Others have pointed out the logistical impossibilities of it - whether you accept them or not - and the Imperium would be insane to plant another population of indepeendent Aslan to trailing. What does the Imperium recieve for this? Yet another cancerous growth on yet another border. Just what the doctor ordered, huh?
You also fail to understand that, unless they arrived in a multi-million sophont wave, the ihatei are doomed. Don't let the idiocy of MT's Alien Incursions foll you. The same book that claims they swamped the Imperial border also bithely states that the majority of ihatei groups number under 10 thousand. Picking off a few thousand Aslan, most of whom are not warriors, from whatever rock they've squatted on inside the 2000 Worlds will be well within the abilities of the K'Kree.
Finally, I wouldn't take the actions of an acknowledged extremist splinter group; the Lords of Thunder, to represent the species as a whole. As an empire, the K'Kree have turned away from expansion and conquest. The upper nobility realizes that their specie's religious goal of wiping the universe clean cannot be achieved. They still make mouth noises to that effect for public consumption, but they've come to a working arrangement with the universe as a whole - we don't expand and you don't come knocking.
Yes, various jihadist groups will still sally out of the 2000 Worlds on their religious quest and, yes, they will make life uncomfortable for those sophonts along the frontier but the 2000 Worlds as a whole will not back them. If you read M:1248 again you'll realize this. Without giving too much away, pay close attention to just what comes of the wreckage of the 2000 Worlds, just how big it is, and what relative little it accomplishes.
I'm not a fan of the K'Kree and usually used them as orc-like cannon fodder for my PCs in those few adventures I featured them. They are nasty, but they are brittle and they can barely control what they've already taken.
Sincerely,
Bill
As mentioned by other, you really need to read about the K'Kree in GT:AR. Most of your questions are answered there.
Why did the K'Kree go into space? CT and MT's 'Lords of Thunder' explain that: They were afraid of being eaten. In LoT, the PC's pass down a museum of sorts aboard the G'naak generation ship. Charming videos showing K'Kree being hunted and eaten alive are presented. Once G'naak society on Kirur fell and/or was beaten by the K'Kree, the moon above was still full of those delightful critters. That's a good enough reason to go into space, don't you think?
As for the idea that the K'Kree are still on the 'warpath' somehow, I'm afraid that idea fails even basic scruntiny. They haven't expanded since the Hiver War, they're spread painfully thin across their empire, their worlds are ecological shambles held together by constant effort, and they can barely keep the lid on the territory they already hold and then only by means of genocide.
I'm no K'kree supporter, far from it actually, but the idea that they as a group somehow pose a threat to the other major races is laughable. GT:AR even mentions refugee societies of various g'naak flushed from the 2000 Worlds still 'holding out' on multi-world polities to trailing of the K'Kree. If the Steppelords are as powerful as you believe, why are those worlds still living?
GT:AR also presents the K'Kree trans-rift enclave from the point of view of the Vargr it faces. Put simply, that enclave is a prison that the K'kree cannot expand from and can only maintain at great effort. It is in the best interest of the Vargr that the K'Kree remain stuck to that particular 'tar baby'.
The idea of allowing ihatei to transit the Imperium in order to carve out new lands among the 200 Worlds is a non-starter. Others have pointed out the logistical impossibilities of it - whether you accept them or not - and the Imperium would be insane to plant another population of indepeendent Aslan to trailing. What does the Imperium recieve for this? Yet another cancerous growth on yet another border. Just what the doctor ordered, huh?
You also fail to understand that, unless they arrived in a multi-million sophont wave, the ihatei are doomed. Don't let the idiocy of MT's Alien Incursions foll you. The same book that claims they swamped the Imperial border also bithely states that the majority of ihatei groups number under 10 thousand. Picking off a few thousand Aslan, most of whom are not warriors, from whatever rock they've squatted on inside the 2000 Worlds will be well within the abilities of the K'Kree.
Finally, I wouldn't take the actions of an acknowledged extremist splinter group; the Lords of Thunder, to represent the species as a whole. As an empire, the K'Kree have turned away from expansion and conquest. The upper nobility realizes that their specie's religious goal of wiping the universe clean cannot be achieved. They still make mouth noises to that effect for public consumption, but they've come to a working arrangement with the universe as a whole - we don't expand and you don't come knocking.
Yes, various jihadist groups will still sally out of the 2000 Worlds on their religious quest and, yes, they will make life uncomfortable for those sophonts along the frontier but the 2000 Worlds as a whole will not back them. If you read M:1248 again you'll realize this. Without giving too much away, pay close attention to just what comes of the wreckage of the 2000 Worlds, just how big it is, and what relative little it accomplishes.
I'm not a fan of the K'Kree and usually used them as orc-like cannon fodder for my PCs in those few adventures I featured them. They are nasty, but they are brittle and they can barely control what they've already taken.
Sincerely,
Bill
mike wightman
February 22nd, 2005, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.
Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.
Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Send them.
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.
Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.
Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Send them.
Whipsnade
February 22nd, 2005, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;) [/QB]Unless, for some reason, the world happens to be Earth... go figure... ;)
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;) [/QB]Unless, for some reason, the world happens to be Earth... go figure... ;)
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Andrew Boulton:
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.
Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.
Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. Terran Humans perhaps, and even not all of us here on Terra, but the Vilani are known for the Black War Option. And in this case, remember we didn't start it. It isn't the Humans that want to stomp out all Herbivores, or intelligent life that isn't human, or, in reality, given the no Carnivore dictates, all life that isn't K'kree or Grass. smile.gif
Biological warfare option for dealing cheaply and effectively with K'kree. Dump tons of Marijuana Seeds on all planets inhabited by K'kree. They would grow like weeds (pun intended) get the K'kree stoned, and the K'kree would laze about talking about various philosophical subjects, get the munchies, eat more weed and begin the cycle again. smile.gif
Why wouldn't shipping a few million Ihaeti be practical? You cold ship 4 million Ihaeti in cold sleep, with less than 10 million tons of shipping. Hell, call it 15 million and include transporting enough equipment to jump start a technological base. That is less than most Subsectors have in the Naval budget even to purpose build the ships. (And you could reuse them and go back for another load.) You use a couple Multi Fleet Task Forces and Imperial Marine Assault forces to establish LZs and turn them loose.
A war with the K'kree be messy. Once you start, it ain't gonna stop until one side or the other has been bombed back to the stone age, if not exterminated completely.
Humans, in general, fight fair. They take prisoners. They try to avoid collateral damage. K'kree don't. They will happily slaughter billions of unarmed civilians, reducing entire planets to charred rocks.
Unless you're prepared to fight the same way (and accept the inevitable casualties), don't start.
Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. Terran Humans perhaps, and even not all of us here on Terra, but the Vilani are known for the Black War Option. And in this case, remember we didn't start it. It isn't the Humans that want to stomp out all Herbivores, or intelligent life that isn't human, or, in reality, given the no Carnivore dictates, all life that isn't K'kree or Grass. smile.gif
Biological warfare option for dealing cheaply and effectively with K'kree. Dump tons of Marijuana Seeds on all planets inhabited by K'kree. They would grow like weeds (pun intended) get the K'kree stoned, and the K'kree would laze about talking about various philosophical subjects, get the munchies, eat more weed and begin the cycle again. smile.gif
Why wouldn't shipping a few million Ihaeti be practical? You cold ship 4 million Ihaeti in cold sleep, with less than 10 million tons of shipping. Hell, call it 15 million and include transporting enough equipment to jump start a technological base. That is less than most Subsectors have in the Naval budget even to purpose build the ships. (And you could reuse them and go back for another load.) You use a couple Multi Fleet Task Forces and Imperial Marine Assault forces to establish LZs and turn them loose.
robject
February 22nd, 2005, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Send them. Lies and slander. Sidusuli in simurki.
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;)
Send them. Lies and slander. Sidusuli in simurki.
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by kafka47:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. And, if this would be logistically feasible...think of the price that would be paid. The Imperium is still paying for the foolhardy use of the Vargr by the Vilani.
The honor debt alone would place such a burden on Imperial finances that it the 3I would be one enormous Vassal State of the Hierate... </font>[/QUOTE]But the Debt of Honor goes the other way. The Imperium is providing them with the opportunity to aquire land. It relieves the Ihaeti pressure from the hierate and destroys an enemy that would consider nothing but the total extinction of the Aslan race, which are Carnivores not Omnivores, a good outcome.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Shipping millions of Aslan right accross the Imperium isn't a practical option. And, if this would be logistically feasible...think of the price that would be paid. The Imperium is still paying for the foolhardy use of the Vargr by the Vilani.
The honor debt alone would place such a burden on Imperial finances that it the 3I would be one enormous Vassal State of the Hierate... </font>[/QUOTE]But the Debt of Honor goes the other way. The Imperium is providing them with the opportunity to aquire land. It relieves the Ihaeti pressure from the hierate and destroys an enemy that would consider nothing but the total extinction of the Aslan race, which are Carnivores not Omnivores, a good outcome.
rancke
February 22nd, 2005, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;) Unless, for some reason, the world happens to be Earth... go figure... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I figure the difference lies in the couple of thousand years between the Consolidation Wars and the Interstellar Wars. Tempora mutantur...
Hans
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
The Vilani of the First Imperium didn't have a problem with sterilizing worlds that didn't surrender ;) Unless, for some reason, the world happens to be Earth... go figure... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I figure the difference lies in the couple of thousand years between the Consolidation Wars and the Interstellar Wars. Tempora mutantur...
Hans
BetterThanLife
February 22nd, 2005, 01:37 PM
Larsen,
The big question isn't why the K'kree went to space, more like how. How does a claustrophobic race that can't stand to be alone and hates artificial environments develope space travel, especially interstellar space travel? How do they survive combat with another technological interstellar race that don't have those limitations?
Obviously how a fanatical threat that is on your doorstep can be ignored, is lack of belief or political will. (The Ostrich syndrome.)
The big question isn't why the K'kree went to space, more like how. How does a claustrophobic race that can't stand to be alone and hates artificial environments develope space travel, especially interstellar space travel? How do they survive combat with another technological interstellar race that don't have those limitations?
Obviously how a fanatical threat that is on your doorstep can be ignored, is lack of belief or political will. (The Ostrich syndrome.)
mike wightman
February 22nd, 2005, 01:56 PM
Their first spacefarers were the crazies.
After them they began building the huge ships that they've used ever since. They didn't use rockets remember - it was straight to grav vehicles for them.
They outnumbered their moon dwelling G'naak by quite a considerable amount, and were the only race to develop the jump drive in their part of space.
They wouldn't really be much of a threat to the Imperium because of the superior TL of Imperial forces (according to MT/DGP) - the Hive Federation could probably totally outclass them now as well - TL16 computers give quite an advantage in HG combat ;)
After them they began building the huge ships that they've used ever since. They didn't use rockets remember - it was straight to grav vehicles for them.
They outnumbered their moon dwelling G'naak by quite a considerable amount, and were the only race to develop the jump drive in their part of space.
They wouldn't really be much of a threat to the Imperium because of the superior TL of Imperial forces (according to MT/DGP) - the Hive Federation could probably totally outclass them now as well - TL16 computers give quite an advantage in HG combat ;)
Chuck Anumia
February 22nd, 2005, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Their first spacefarers were the crazies.
After them they began building the huge ships that they've used ever since. They didn't use rockets remember - it was straight to grav vehicles for them.
They outnumbered their moon dwelling G'naak by quite a considerable amount, and were the only race to develop the jump drive in their part of space.
They wouldn't really be much of a threat to the Imperium because of the superior TL of Imperial forces (according to MT/DGP) - the Hive Federation could probably totally outclass them now as well - TL16 computers give quite an advantage in HG combat ;) For CT yes.
For MT yes.
For TNE Not So.
For 1248 the scene set is much more equal with the virus infected ships they are using to fight for them. graemlins/omega.gif
Their first spacefarers were the crazies.
After them they began building the huge ships that they've used ever since. They didn't use rockets remember - it was straight to grav vehicles for them.
They outnumbered their moon dwelling G'naak by quite a considerable amount, and were the only race to develop the jump drive in their part of space.
They wouldn't really be much of a threat to the Imperium because of the superior TL of Imperial forces (according to MT/DGP) - the Hive Federation could probably totally outclass them now as well - TL16 computers give quite an advantage in HG combat ;) For CT yes.
For MT yes.
For TNE Not So.
For 1248 the scene set is much more equal with the virus infected ships they are using to fight for them. graemlins/omega.gif
Blue Ghost
February 22nd, 2005, 09:26 PM
I'm not up on my Virus lore for TNE. What would happen in a major engagement?
clementk
February 22nd, 2005, 11:29 PM
Ugh. I'm trying to ignore the Borgified Cows.
I am finally getting to the point where I can use the K’Kree IMTU, having recently gotten GT Alien Races 2 and reading the Lords of Thunder material in MTD#4. GT presents them more as disillusioned Empire builders (at least at the top). Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect.
Ever since the war with the Hivers they've stopped the conquest and have looked increasingly inward. The leaders realize it's impossible to rid the 'verse of all meat eaters and are slowly reforming K'Kree society so there's more possibility for trade. They also realize that if the other major races knew about their extermination of several sophont species they'd likely get wiped out as well. I would moderate them even further than this.
Personally I don't see the K'Kree as being that capable in the long run against a major power. They need very specific worlds or use extensive terraforming, large expanses*, and their strategic and tactical plans require very specific conditions to win. K'Kree don't adapt well. However neither should they be underestimated. I just find the canon view of them as untenable.
* I need to go over population stuff; at the moment I'm thinking there are less K'Kree warriors than I'd thought
I am finally getting to the point where I can use the K’Kree IMTU, having recently gotten GT Alien Races 2 and reading the Lords of Thunder material in MTD#4. GT presents them more as disillusioned Empire builders (at least at the top). Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect.
Ever since the war with the Hivers they've stopped the conquest and have looked increasingly inward. The leaders realize it's impossible to rid the 'verse of all meat eaters and are slowly reforming K'Kree society so there's more possibility for trade. They also realize that if the other major races knew about their extermination of several sophont species they'd likely get wiped out as well. I would moderate them even further than this.
Personally I don't see the K'Kree as being that capable in the long run against a major power. They need very specific worlds or use extensive terraforming, large expanses*, and their strategic and tactical plans require very specific conditions to win. K'Kree don't adapt well. However neither should they be underestimated. I just find the canon view of them as untenable.
* I need to go over population stuff; at the moment I'm thinking there are less K'Kree warriors than I'd thought
Piper
February 23rd, 2005, 06:27 AM
Originally posted by Casey:
Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect. I use the LBB's and some MT and don't have much source material from the newer systems. I was quite surprised to find out that the K'kree had taken such a dark turn.
The initial article does mention a "hatred" of carnivores, but it's tempered by stating that K'kree will be "uneasy" in the prescence of anyone who has eaten meat and further goes on to discuss trade missions and diplomatic embassies.
When did they turn into ravening space-nazis?
If I ever get around to it, I'll be adding K'kree to MTU. But when I do, they'll be the "kinder, gentler" K'kree of the LBB's.
And that's the beauty of Traveller. smile.gif
As to hardware: Striker has rules for the K'kree. Aside from not allowing individual basing, and requiring large amounts of crew space in vehicles, they don't seem very limiting. There's no indication of paralyzing claustrophobia or unwillingness to use vehicles. In fact, the K'kree seem like they would would be a very tough opponent.
Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect. I use the LBB's and some MT and don't have much source material from the newer systems. I was quite surprised to find out that the K'kree had taken such a dark turn.
The initial article does mention a "hatred" of carnivores, but it's tempered by stating that K'kree will be "uneasy" in the prescence of anyone who has eaten meat and further goes on to discuss trade missions and diplomatic embassies.
When did they turn into ravening space-nazis?
If I ever get around to it, I'll be adding K'kree to MTU. But when I do, they'll be the "kinder, gentler" K'kree of the LBB's.
And that's the beauty of Traveller. smile.gif
As to hardware: Striker has rules for the K'kree. Aside from not allowing individual basing, and requiring large amounts of crew space in vehicles, they don't seem very limiting. There's no indication of paralyzing claustrophobia or unwillingness to use vehicles. In fact, the K'kree seem like they would would be a very tough opponent.
BetterThanLife
February 23rd, 2005, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Casey:
Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect. I use the LBB's and some MT and don't have much source material from the newer systems. I was quite surprised to find out that the K'kree had taken such a dark turn.
The initial article does mention a "hatred" of carnivores, but it's tempered by stating that K'kree will be "uneasy" in the prescence of anyone who has eaten meat and further goes on to discuss trade missions and diplomatic embassies.
When did they turn into ravening space-nazis?
If I ever get around to it, I'll be adding K'kree to MTU. But when I do, they'll be the "kinder, gentler" K'kree of the LBB's.
And that's the beauty of Traveller. smile.gif
As to hardware: Striker has rules for the K'kree. Aside from not allowing individual basing, and requiring large amounts of crew space in vehicles, they don't seem very limiting. There's no indication of paralyzing claustrophobia or unwillingness to use vehicles. In fact, the K'kree seem like they would would be a very tough opponent. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2. smile.gif Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2. smile.gif So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree. smile.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Casey:
Interestingly enough the original Contact article doesn’t mention the fanatical genocide aspect. I use the LBB's and some MT and don't have much source material from the newer systems. I was quite surprised to find out that the K'kree had taken such a dark turn.
The initial article does mention a "hatred" of carnivores, but it's tempered by stating that K'kree will be "uneasy" in the prescence of anyone who has eaten meat and further goes on to discuss trade missions and diplomatic embassies.
When did they turn into ravening space-nazis?
If I ever get around to it, I'll be adding K'kree to MTU. But when I do, they'll be the "kinder, gentler" K'kree of the LBB's.
And that's the beauty of Traveller. smile.gif
As to hardware: Striker has rules for the K'kree. Aside from not allowing individual basing, and requiring large amounts of crew space in vehicles, they don't seem very limiting. There's no indication of paralyzing claustrophobia or unwillingness to use vehicles. In fact, the K'kree seem like they would would be a very tough opponent. </font>[/QUOTE]Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2. smile.gif Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2. smile.gif So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree. smile.gif
Piper
February 23rd, 2005, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2. smile.gif Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2. smile.gif So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree. smile.gif Ahhh ... I don't have AM2, so there's part of my confusion. Thanks!
And "kinder, gentler" is purely relative. Any race that managed the climb to the top rung on the evolutionary ladder is probably neither kind nor gentle. ;)
Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2. smile.gif Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2. smile.gif So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree. smile.gif Ahhh ... I don't have AM2, so there's part of my confusion. Thanks!
And "kinder, gentler" is purely relative. Any race that managed the climb to the top rung on the evolutionary ladder is probably neither kind nor gentle. ;)
BetterThanLife
February 23rd, 2005, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Piper:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2. smile.gif Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2. smile.gif So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree. smile.gif Ahhh ... I don't have AM2, so there's part of my confusion. Thanks!
And "kinder, gentler" is purely relative. Any race that managed the climb to the top rung on the evolutionary ladder is probably neither kind nor gentle. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]In the case of the K'kree more like stampeeded and trampled. smile.gif
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bhoins:
Actually the Fanatic K'kree, exterminate all carnivores and omnivores is from CT's AM2. smile.gif Though once they lost to the Hivers the main Government turned inward. Though it doesn't state that they gave up on the concept of ridding the Universe of Carnivores/Omnivores. The Lords of Thunder are the true fanatics who think the Overlord of Steppelords is being a pansy and not proceeding with the Carnivore extermination rapidily enough. But the whole "Meat Eaters, bad" concept is from CT Alien Module 2. smile.gif So I am not so sure that the CT K'kree is a kindler gentler K'kree. smile.gif Ahhh ... I don't have AM2, so there's part of my confusion. Thanks!
And "kinder, gentler" is purely relative. Any race that managed the climb to the top rung on the evolutionary ladder is probably neither kind nor gentle. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]In the case of the K'kree more like stampeeded and trampled. smile.gif
Whipsnade
February 23rd, 2005, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Bhoins:
The big question isn't why the K'kree went to space, more like how.Bhoins,
Oh, sorry, I misread you. They supposedly jumped straight to gravitics and fusion power without all that messy (and small) mucking about in aircraft and chemical rockets. Having a moonful of G'Naak hanging over their head supposedly gave them a great R&D impetus.
Naturally, being a Whipsnade, I have a low and cunning mind. Traveller has always been wheels within wheels, look at the Aslan/Pathfinder stuff for example. Take another squint at the canonical K'Kree In Space Story.
Kirur's moon is full of the same G'Naak that so recently were eating K'Kree alive, so what? Why did the K'Kree feel that the solution included the necessity of landing infantry there? Wouldn't a hundred thousand or so nuc-tipped ballistic missiles and a few spy sats get the job done? No need to recruit 'crazies', no need to work out all the psychological bits that help their AFV/spacecraft crewmen stay just this side of sane; i.e. odor generators, subliminal sounds, optical illusions, etc. Why go through all that bother?
Unless the K'Kree never really developed gravitics and fusion power on their own.
The G'Naak on Kirur's moon had been using Kirur proper and the K'Kree on it as a hunting preserve and/or religio-social rite of passage site. Something happens to the parent society on the moon (their generation ship had already moved on)and the G'Naak on Kirur are suddenly stranded. The K'Kree slowly gain the upper hand, exterminate the Kirur-based G'Naak, and are left with all this stuf; i.e. air/rafts, small arms, powerplants, etc. They also know the moon still holds more G'Naak, G'naak that may be returning soon.
So, the K'Kree launch (pun intended) a crash (pun intended again) program to use the bits the G'Naak left behind to get to the moon and put an end to the problem. They are simply copying whatever was left. They don't understand it beyond a blackbox level and have none of the intermediate knowledge. Slagging the moon with nuc-warheads aboard chemical rocket boosters isn't an option beause the K'Kree don't know anything about nucs and rockets! All they do know is how to fight that G'Naak as infantry and kill them the old fashioned way; with bullets, hooves, and blades.
Every read Poul Anderson's High Crusade?
After finishing off the G'Naak with the help of copied G'Naak technological goodies, the K'Kree went back and began filling the rest of their technical knowledge.
How does a claustrophobic race that can't stand to be alone and hates artificial environments develope space travel, especially interstellar space travel?Exactly how hard-wired are those limitations? CT's Hiver book suggests the Hivers were able to manipulate certain K'Kree societies into using meat sauces, enjoying solitude, and other habits seemingly at odds with the K'Kree's built-in, biological traits. (TNE has a much different story, one that I tend to believe first.)
So, how much of that claustrophobia is innate and how much of it is a cultural artifact? Ask the same question for all those other K'Kree behaviors. Are there really that many crazies in the K'Kree gene pool? Or is their behavior a bit more malleable, it bit more of a cultural artifact, than they care to admit?
How do they survive combat with another technological interstellar race that don't have those limitations?Very, very, very poorly. That's why it's takes the effects of Virus on Chartered Space and a herd of Borgified Cows (blecch) for the K'Kree to become any threat whatsoever to the Chartered Space. Even then, the efforts of a clutch relatively minor polities - plus the rabbit-from-a-hat, D&D-ish, Incrediably Cinematic Series of Heroic Events(tm) - still stop the K'Kree cold.
GT:AR has the Vargr estimate of the K'Krees' chances and if anything it gives the K'Kree to much. The Hivers got hammered at first because they didn't have an army or navy. As for the other cases, happily for the K'Kree and unhappily for most of the sophonts they've met, the K'Kree always held the technological whip hand. Still, there are those omnivore/carnivore refugee polities to trailing that the 2000 Worlds hasn't been able to deal with.
[QUOTE]Obviously how a fanatical threat that is on your doorstep can be ignored, is lack of belief or political will. (The Ostrich syndrome.) [/QB]
In CT, MT, and TNE, they aren't the threat you believe them to be. In M:1248, they are a threat because of the shattered nature of Chartered Space and, even then, they get handled.
Sincerely,
Bill
The big question isn't why the K'kree went to space, more like how.Bhoins,
Oh, sorry, I misread you. They supposedly jumped straight to gravitics and fusion power without all that messy (and small) mucking about in aircraft and chemical rockets. Having a moonful of G'Naak hanging over their head supposedly gave them a great R&D impetus.
Naturally, being a Whipsnade, I have a low and cunning mind. Traveller has always been wheels within wheels, look at the Aslan/Pathfinder stuff for example. Take another squint at the canonical K'Kree In Space Story.
Kirur's moon is full of the same G'Naak that so recently were eating K'Kree alive, so what? Why did the K'Kree feel that the solution included the necessity of landing infantry there? Wouldn't a hundred thousand or so nuc-tipped ballistic missiles and a few spy sats get the job done? No need to recruit 'crazies', no need to work out all the psychological bits that help their AFV/spacecraft crewmen stay just this side of sane; i.e. odor generators, subliminal sounds, optical illusions, etc. Why go through all that bother?
Unless the K'Kree never really developed gravitics and fusion power on their own.
The G'Naak on Kirur's moon had been using Kirur proper and the K'Kree on it as a hunting preserve and/or religio-social rite of passage site. Something happens to the parent society on the moon (their generation ship had already moved on)and the G'Naak on Kirur are suddenly stranded. The K'Kree slowly gain the upper hand, exterminate the Kirur-based G'Naak, and are left with all this stuf; i.e. air/rafts, small arms, powerplants, etc. They also know the moon still holds more G'Naak, G'naak that may be returning soon.
So, the K'Kree launch (pun intended) a crash (pun intended again) program to use the bits the G'Naak left behind to get to the moon and put an end to the problem. They are simply copying whatever was left. They don't understand it beyond a blackbox level and have none of the intermediate knowledge. Slagging the moon with nuc-warheads aboard chemical rocket boosters isn't an option beause the K'Kree don't know anything about nucs and rockets! All they do know is how to fight that G'Naak as infantry and kill them the old fashioned way; with bullets, hooves, and blades.
Every read Poul Anderson's High Crusade?
After finishing off the G'Naak with the help of copied G'Naak technological goodies, the K'Kree went back and began filling the rest of their technical knowledge.
How does a claustrophobic race that can't stand to be alone and hates artificial environments develope space travel, especially interstellar space travel?Exactly how hard-wired are those limitations? CT's Hiver book suggests the Hivers were able to manipulate certain K'Kree societies into using meat sauces, enjoying solitude, and other habits seemingly at odds with the K'Kree's built-in, biological traits. (TNE has a much different story, one that I tend to believe first.)
So, how much of that claustrophobia is innate and how much of it is a cultural artifact? Ask the same question for all those other K'Kree behaviors. Are there really that many crazies in the K'Kree gene pool? Or is their behavior a bit more malleable, it bit more of a cultural artifact, than they care to admit?
How do they survive combat with another technological interstellar race that don't have those limitations?Very, very, very poorly. That's why it's takes the effects of Virus on Chartered Space and a herd of Borgified Cows (blecch) for the K'Kree to become any threat whatsoever to the Chartered Space. Even then, the efforts of a clutch relatively minor polities - plus the rabbit-from-a-hat, D&D-ish, Incrediably Cinematic Series of Heroic Events(tm) - still stop the K'Kree cold.
GT:AR has the Vargr estimate of the K'Krees' chances and if anything it gives the K'Kree to much. The Hivers got hammered at first because they didn't have an army or navy. As for the other cases, happily for the K'Kree and unhappily for most of the sophonts they've met, the K'Kree always held the technological whip hand. Still, there are those omnivore/carnivore refugee polities to trailing that the 2000 Worlds hasn't been able to deal with.
[QUOTE]Obviously how a fanatical threat that is on your doorstep can be ignored, is lack of belief or political will. (The Ostrich syndrome.) [/QB]
In CT, MT, and TNE, they aren't the threat you believe them to be. In M:1248, they are a threat because of the shattered nature of Chartered Space and, even then, they get handled.
Sincerely,
Bill
Blue Ghost
February 23rd, 2005, 02:22 PM
Accoding to the CT/AM2 they've always had a fanatical history with quatum leaps in technology; possibly due to massive cooperation among tribal factions' scientists and such, or possibly because there was simply no need to develop things like gunpowder until absoloutely neccesary.
clementk
February 24th, 2005, 01:43 AM
Oh well, just like I prefer to use mostly pre-Alien Module Solomani with bits from the GT material I am going to do the same with the K'Kree IMTU. The fewer Loony Interstellar States (yes I am aware of what else LIS stands for tongue.gif ) IMTU the better.
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