saulweaver
July 8th, 2003, 09:53 PM
Is there any canonical information about the Solomani on the frontier? Are they actively exploring and colonizing? Are there other powers out there?
Thanks for any information. My CT/MT materials do not seem to say anything about what is going on.
Thanks for any information. My CT/MT materials do not seem to say anything about what is going on.
mad13142000
July 8th, 2003, 10:34 PM
The Solomani Rim sort of peters out in the Aldebaran Sector...Not sure why, Do know that there are several small pocket empires rimward...There is something REALLY NASTY said to be lurking in Amderstun Sector.... graemlins/file_23.gif
Some of the pocket Empires rimward include:
Hadji Sector-
Creation of Nonpareil
Parity of Brothers
Johnson-Bowes Federation
Counsel of the Wise
Winston Democracy
Malorn Sector-
Bright Stars Cooperate
Daprolix Juncture
Great Terbah
Joie De Vivre
Lords of Vision
Malorn Union
Toh Republic
Hanstone Sector-
Auftei Ktaih
Fteiheiel Oih
Council of Heads
Jurisdiction of Nadon
Banners Sector-
Woal Warliylr
Delsun Comagistrant
Aoiftu Roakh
Note that these are the playgrounds of the Referees, and not much out here is solid canon, but some of this is pretty well distributed, and a couple of things are the result of HIWG and JTAS articles...Pick and choose what you will.
Also note that Langere Sector is the interface between Solomani and the Hive Federation, so Humaniti is blocked from expansion trailing, as is the Aslan on the Canopus Sector side..
I don't know...What exactly are you interested in?
-MADDog
Some of the pocket Empires rimward include:
Hadji Sector-
Creation of Nonpareil
Parity of Brothers
Johnson-Bowes Federation
Counsel of the Wise
Winston Democracy
Malorn Sector-
Bright Stars Cooperate
Daprolix Juncture
Great Terbah
Joie De Vivre
Lords of Vision
Malorn Union
Toh Republic
Hanstone Sector-
Auftei Ktaih
Fteiheiel Oih
Council of Heads
Jurisdiction of Nadon
Banners Sector-
Woal Warliylr
Delsun Comagistrant
Aoiftu Roakh
Note that these are the playgrounds of the Referees, and not much out here is solid canon, but some of this is pretty well distributed, and a couple of things are the result of HIWG and JTAS articles...Pick and choose what you will.
Also note that Langere Sector is the interface between Solomani and the Hive Federation, so Humaniti is blocked from expansion trailing, as is the Aslan on the Canopus Sector side..
I don't know...What exactly are you interested in?
-MADDog
Antony
July 11th, 2003, 02:49 PM
Well I've been detailing the Banners sector. I havn't done much on the Aslan states of Woal Warliylr and Aoiftu Roakh. Though I did come with an explanation for the sectors name, excerpt posted below;
The Hope subsector (subsector H) contains thirteen star systems, all of which were settled primarily by humans. Unlike many other regions in the sector no Aslan had settled on any worlds in the subsector. This was despite the regions proximity to the Woal Warliyir.
This was a consequence of the so called battle of the banners, fought between the Woal Warliyir and a coalition of human states led by the then advanced system of Nakajima. During the engagement ships were so badly damaged that many took each other on at close to visual ranges. At this range sensor locks were virtually automatic. The human admiral Canning Xiang knowing this lit up the chameleon hull on his flagship producing a "banner" the rest of his command followed suit as did the Woal Warliyir vessels.
The battle was a pyrric victory for admiral Xiang (he was killed in the battle), Nakajima was devastated but the treaty between the Woal Warliyir signed by the surviving representatives of the human coalition continued until virus struck the sector.
The Hope subsector (subsector H) contains thirteen star systems, all of which were settled primarily by humans. Unlike many other regions in the sector no Aslan had settled on any worlds in the subsector. This was despite the regions proximity to the Woal Warliyir.
This was a consequence of the so called battle of the banners, fought between the Woal Warliyir and a coalition of human states led by the then advanced system of Nakajima. During the engagement ships were so badly damaged that many took each other on at close to visual ranges. At this range sensor locks were virtually automatic. The human admiral Canning Xiang knowing this lit up the chameleon hull on his flagship producing a "banner" the rest of his command followed suit as did the Woal Warliyir vessels.
The battle was a pyrric victory for admiral Xiang (he was killed in the battle), Nakajima was devastated but the treaty between the Woal Warliyir signed by the surviving representatives of the human coalition continued until virus struck the sector.
mad13142000
July 12th, 2003, 02:55 AM
I was under the impression that the Waol were a minor alien race...
I was going to mention your version of Banner - I have it as part of my astrography, but I don't play TNE myself, and he was asking about CT...
Don't get me wrong, I like your version, just don't use it...<although it taught me how to write a decent subsector note file smile.gif >
-MADDog
I was going to mention your version of Banner - I have it as part of my astrography, but I don't play TNE myself, and he was asking about CT...
Don't get me wrong, I like your version, just don't use it...<although it taught me how to write a decent subsector note file smile.gif >
-MADDog
Antony
July 12th, 2003, 03:05 PM
I never came across any information that the Woal Warliyir were a minor race so I made them Aslan as well. This made sense to me given the number of Aslan client states and Aslan PEs which seemed to fill the area.
Ranger
July 12th, 2003, 03:33 PM
My general impression was that the SC was pre-occupied with the imperial threat and the liberation of occupied territory coreward. It would be hard to politically justify the expense of a major expansion or even large scale exploration rimward until the confrontation with the Imperium was resolved.
Just my thoughts,
Rob
Just my thoughts,
Rob
kafka47
July 12th, 2003, 03:53 PM
I have always viewed those rimward colonies the real deep pockets of real humanity left. Whereas, the pockets that formed up with the Rim compromised their principles those rimward was where the most militaristic societies were to be found.
I extrapolated from the fact that expansion during the Interstellar Wars must have pushed Rimward (as a flank to obtain resources to fight the Wars). Those colonies had colonies which pushed humanity further. With the collapse of the ROM, perhaps, some elements of humanity was always in search of Earth or their roots amongst the Stars. Now what if some of those colonists found traces of the civilizations that dated around the time of the primordials which pushed them further Rimward...plus, too much nasty politics (Earth et al) and radiation Coreward...
I extrapolated from the fact that expansion during the Interstellar Wars must have pushed Rimward (as a flank to obtain resources to fight the Wars). Those colonies had colonies which pushed humanity further. With the collapse of the ROM, perhaps, some elements of humanity was always in search of Earth or their roots amongst the Stars. Now what if some of those colonists found traces of the civilizations that dated around the time of the primordials which pushed them further Rimward...plus, too much nasty politics (Earth et al) and radiation Coreward...
mad13142000
July 12th, 2003, 07:16 PM
Kafka - Banners Sector is rimward of Ustral Quadrant, definitely within the Aslan Heirate, not Humaniti.
With the Aslan Spinward, and Hivers Trailing, Humaniti only has a narrow corridor 3 sectors wide through Malorn, Hadji, and Storr sectors to expand. And since these are all rimward of the Solomani, it would be up to them to do it, not the Imperium. Unfortunately, there is not much space before they trip across a potentialy more dangerous threat than the Virus, lying in Amderstun Sector...
As I see it, it's GOOD that there isn't alot of expansion... smile.gif
-MADDog
With the Aslan Spinward, and Hivers Trailing, Humaniti only has a narrow corridor 3 sectors wide through Malorn, Hadji, and Storr sectors to expand. And since these are all rimward of the Solomani, it would be up to them to do it, not the Imperium. Unfortunately, there is not much space before they trip across a potentialy more dangerous threat than the Virus, lying in Amderstun Sector...
As I see it, it's GOOD that there isn't alot of expansion... smile.gif
-MADDog
saulweaver
July 14th, 2003, 03:49 PM
Thanks for all the information everyone. I was able to find the maps of the relevant sectors, and human settlements seem to stop about 40 parsecs to rimward of the Solomani border. After that, its X starports and no populations. It appears that the rimward frontier is not being aggressively colonized. Perhaps due to the desire for revanche.
I was interested in doing a series of frontier adventures. The Imperium is an attractive starting point, but it is a very long way to any truly empty frontiers without having to go through some other empire (beyond Theron?). The frontier is much closer to the Solomani, but the whole Party/SolSec thing is such a distraction.
I was interested in doing a series of frontier adventures. The Imperium is an attractive starting point, but it is a very long way to any truly empty frontiers without having to go through some other empire (beyond Theron?). The frontier is much closer to the Solomani, but the whole Party/SolSec thing is such a distraction.
ninthcouncil
July 14th, 2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by MADDog:
Unfortunately, there is not much space before they trip across a potentialy more dangerous threat than the Virus, lying in Amderstun Sector...-MADDog You tease, MADDog. tongue.gif I've seen a dot map of Malorn showing some systems to rimward keyed as "AI Lifeforms", though I've no idea of the original source of this data - is this anything to do with your mysterious Very Bad Thing? Or is it a home-brewed Thing?
Unfortunately, there is not much space before they trip across a potentialy more dangerous threat than the Virus, lying in Amderstun Sector...-MADDog You tease, MADDog. tongue.gif I've seen a dot map of Malorn showing some systems to rimward keyed as "AI Lifeforms", though I've no idea of the original source of this data - is this anything to do with your mysterious Very Bad Thing? Or is it a home-brewed Thing?
Anthony
July 14th, 2003, 05:37 PM
None of the rimward solomani information is particularly high canon, though I believe they're supposed to have sent some very long distance probes out. Jon F Zeigler is working on a writeup of Aldebaran sector for GURPS Traveller (not sure of release schedule) and pretty well determined that the actual canon is _very_ limited, and the information about the sector on the web is actively bad and should be discarded.
mad13142000
July 14th, 2003, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by ninthcouncil:
You tease, MADDog. tongue.gif I've seen a dot map of Malorn showing some systems to rimward keyed as "AI Lifeforms", though I've no idea of the original source of this data - is this anything to do with your mysterious Very Bad Thing? Or is it a home-brewed Thing? Moi? Tease? Of course... tongue.gif
The bad thing is Canon...
At least in A Traveller Universe. (A clue!)
Ever read Hienlein? (ooohh. another clue...)
:D
And Anthony - Canon is what is published. Many of those who take the time to make a website do so because they have HAD things published, or because they love the game and wish to share. That makes it canon enough for me. If someone says someting who used to write for HIWG, CORE, or some other Traveller source, that carries a lot. If all you rely on is what LKW or MVM said, you'd miss out on the rest of the universe - The players help create canon too...
-MADDog
You tease, MADDog. tongue.gif I've seen a dot map of Malorn showing some systems to rimward keyed as "AI Lifeforms", though I've no idea of the original source of this data - is this anything to do with your mysterious Very Bad Thing? Or is it a home-brewed Thing? Moi? Tease? Of course... tongue.gif
The bad thing is Canon...
At least in A Traveller Universe. (A clue!)
Ever read Hienlein? (ooohh. another clue...)
:D
And Anthony - Canon is what is published. Many of those who take the time to make a website do so because they have HAD things published, or because they love the game and wish to share. That makes it canon enough for me. If someone says someting who used to write for HIWG, CORE, or some other Traveller source, that carries a lot. If all you rely on is what LKW or MVM said, you'd miss out on the rest of the universe - The players help create canon too...
-MADDog
rancke
July 14th, 2003, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by MADDog:
And Anthony - Canon is what is published.No, canon is what a Traveller editor insists that his authors use as background material. ;)
Hans
And Anthony - Canon is what is published.No, canon is what a Traveller editor insists that his authors use as background material. ;)
Hans
EvilDrGanymede
July 15th, 2003, 12:58 AM
Originally posted by MADDog:
And Anthony - Canon is what is published. Many of those who take the time to make a website do so because they have HAD things published, or because they love the game and wish to share. That makes it canon enough for me. If someone says someting who used to write for HIWG, CORE, or some other Traveller source, that carries a lot. If all you rely on is what LKW or MVM said, you'd miss out on the rest of the universe - The players help create canon too...
-MADDog [/QB]Don't confuse OTU canon with 'Your Own Traveller Universe' canon. Anything can be OK for you, but for it to be canon in the official Traveller universe means that the current publishers of the game have to have approved of it as such.
Also, just because someone had something published once that was incorporated into OTU canon, does not necessarily mean that anything else they write is automatically OTU canon. Look at the DGP stuff, for example.
None of that makes any other material any less valid for one's own TU of course - just don't think that it's actually officially-sanctioned and approved material when it isn't.
And Anthony - Canon is what is published. Many of those who take the time to make a website do so because they have HAD things published, or because they love the game and wish to share. That makes it canon enough for me. If someone says someting who used to write for HIWG, CORE, or some other Traveller source, that carries a lot. If all you rely on is what LKW or MVM said, you'd miss out on the rest of the universe - The players help create canon too...
-MADDog [/QB]Don't confuse OTU canon with 'Your Own Traveller Universe' canon. Anything can be OK for you, but for it to be canon in the official Traveller universe means that the current publishers of the game have to have approved of it as such.
Also, just because someone had something published once that was incorporated into OTU canon, does not necessarily mean that anything else they write is automatically OTU canon. Look at the DGP stuff, for example.
None of that makes any other material any less valid for one's own TU of course - just don't think that it's actually officially-sanctioned and approved material when it isn't.
mad13142000
July 15th, 2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Don't confuse OTU canon with 'Your Own Traveller Universe' canon. Anything can be OK for you, but for it to be canon in the official Traveller universe means that the current publishers of the game have to have approved of it as such.
Also, just because someone had something published once that was incorporated into OTU canon, does not necessarily mean that anything else they write is automatically OTU canon. Look at the DGP stuff, for example.
None of that makes any other material any less valid for one's own TU of course - just don't think that it's actually officially-sanctioned and approved material when it isn't. So your saying that D20 is the ONLY Official Traveller Universe? They are the only ones currently publishing stuff. You have to discount Gurps, because it's already been relegated to the Alternate Universe. All that work for the last 25 years down the tubes. I guess I'll have to throw away all my stuff from BITS (CORE) and my old JTAS, Digest and Challenge magazines...Since it's not considered a part of the OTU...
I've never quoted stuff that hadn't been generated by Core or HIWG. Yes, my work on the Extents is based off of the DGP dotmaps, but according to YOUR editor, they are still considerd canon, just not referrable AS such. I've been working on them, because I'd thought that maybe some other person would be interested in them and wish to NOT spend 6 months developing them. But since they probably won't see print (I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium) I guess I should just stop...
So the OTU ends at Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim...
gee, what an exciting place....
<yawn>
-MADDog
Don't confuse OTU canon with 'Your Own Traveller Universe' canon. Anything can be OK for you, but for it to be canon in the official Traveller universe means that the current publishers of the game have to have approved of it as such.
Also, just because someone had something published once that was incorporated into OTU canon, does not necessarily mean that anything else they write is automatically OTU canon. Look at the DGP stuff, for example.
None of that makes any other material any less valid for one's own TU of course - just don't think that it's actually officially-sanctioned and approved material when it isn't. So your saying that D20 is the ONLY Official Traveller Universe? They are the only ones currently publishing stuff. You have to discount Gurps, because it's already been relegated to the Alternate Universe. All that work for the last 25 years down the tubes. I guess I'll have to throw away all my stuff from BITS (CORE) and my old JTAS, Digest and Challenge magazines...Since it's not considered a part of the OTU...
I've never quoted stuff that hadn't been generated by Core or HIWG. Yes, my work on the Extents is based off of the DGP dotmaps, but according to YOUR editor, they are still considerd canon, just not referrable AS such. I've been working on them, because I'd thought that maybe some other person would be interested in them and wish to NOT spend 6 months developing them. But since they probably won't see print (I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium) I guess I should just stop...
So the OTU ends at Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim...
gee, what an exciting place....
<yawn>
-MADDog
ninthcouncil
July 15th, 2003, 08:26 AM
The canon does include the JTAS, Challenge stuff etc. The Hinterworlds sector, for instance, is canon, though it was only ever published in Challenge. Canon would include the DGP stuff, were it not for the problematic copyright situation surrounding most of their material; that's why it's referred to as forbidden canon.
GURPS Traveller is consistent with canon (and is, in fact, a very useful way of getting summaries of the canon information), excepting that it diverges from OTU history when Dulinor buys the farm instead of Strephon.
I can't see any problem with the BITS stuff, especially since most of it is adventure support rather than background development.
Don't start up the shredder yet - The concept of canon isn't that restrictive. It's just that since the internet caused the whole concept of "publication" to mutate, it's necessary to be a bit careful about your sources if you wish to produce material that's compatible with the official universe, e.g. for professional publication. If you're not interested in getting things published, why worry? The Canon Police aren't going to be kicking down your door and shipping you off to Newcombe Imperial Prison with a bag over your head if you decide that Amderstun is full of dwarf lesbian ninjas in giant mecha :D
GURPS Traveller is consistent with canon (and is, in fact, a very useful way of getting summaries of the canon information), excepting that it diverges from OTU history when Dulinor buys the farm instead of Strephon.
I can't see any problem with the BITS stuff, especially since most of it is adventure support rather than background development.
Don't start up the shredder yet - The concept of canon isn't that restrictive. It's just that since the internet caused the whole concept of "publication" to mutate, it's necessary to be a bit careful about your sources if you wish to produce material that's compatible with the official universe, e.g. for professional publication. If you're not interested in getting things published, why worry? The Canon Police aren't going to be kicking down your door and shipping you off to Newcombe Imperial Prison with a bag over your head if you decide that Amderstun is full of dwarf lesbian ninjas in giant mecha :D
Anthony
July 15th, 2003, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by MADDog:
[QB]
So your saying that D20 is the ONLY Official Traveller Universe? They are the only ones currently publishing stuff.
[QB]
Actually, the canon is what Marc Miller says it is, which doesn't include either GT or T20 at the moment; the canon is basically materials produced for Classic Traveller, including most of the magazines. GURPS Traveller materials are canon for GURPS Traveller; T20 materials are canon for T20. Neither group is required to respect the other's canon, though they'll probably try to avoid deliberate incompatibilities.
This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.
HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.
Oh, and for the record: my problems with the Aldebaran sector in CORE include:
TL 18 pop-A port-A world. That might just tilt the balance of power, might it not?
Home (the capital of the Confederation, which has a canonical location and UWP) is not on the map.
[QB]
So your saying that D20 is the ONLY Official Traveller Universe? They are the only ones currently publishing stuff.
[QB]
Actually, the canon is what Marc Miller says it is, which doesn't include either GT or T20 at the moment; the canon is basically materials produced for Classic Traveller, including most of the magazines. GURPS Traveller materials are canon for GURPS Traveller; T20 materials are canon for T20. Neither group is required to respect the other's canon, though they'll probably try to avoid deliberate incompatibilities.
This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.
HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.
Oh, and for the record: my problems with the Aldebaran sector in CORE include:
TL 18 pop-A port-A world. That might just tilt the balance of power, might it not?
Home (the capital of the Confederation, which has a canonical location and UWP) is not on the map.
EvilDrGanymede
July 15th, 2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by MADDog:
So your saying that D20 is the ONLY Official Traveller Universe? They are the only ones currently publishing stuff. You have to discount Gurps, because it's already been relegated to the Alternate Universe. All that work for the last 25 years down the tubes. I guess I'll have to throw away all my stuff from BITS (CORE) and my old JTAS, Digest and Challenge magazines...Since it's not considered a part of the OTU...
Er, no. In fact I didn't even mention T20. Pretty much all the stuff published in book form over the past 25 years (with a few exceptions that have been deliberately dropped from canon) are part of the OTU. GT and T20 are their own canon, as Anthony explained.
And I believe that JTAS and the digests are OTU too. Though there's probably all sorts of contradictions that spring up as a result of that.
I'm probably generalising somewhat. My point is that Marc Miller and the people who publish Traveller have decided and will decide what's officially canon. I imagine that they probably have a list of stuff that's been accepted somewhere.
I've been working on them, because I'd thought that maybe some other person would be interested in them and wish to NOT spend 6 months developing them. But since they probably won't see print (I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium) I guess I should just stop...
Why stop working on them? Just don't go under the impression that what you're doing is 'official canon' if it isn't. (though if you KNOW that it has been officially accepted as part of OTU canon then there's no problem. But that doesn't sound like the case here).
Even if you publish them on the web or by any other means, people can still be interested in them. Just because it's not part of the OTU doesn't make any homegrown Traveller stuff less valid - all it means is that it's not part of the official universe that everyone shares.
So the OTU ends at Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim...
gee, what an exciting place....
<yawn>
Not at all. Other sectors are there on the charted space maps. Some presumably have been also developed in MT and TNE books (Didn't the Diaspora sector get a book for itself for MT?). Of course it's not just the Spinward Marches and the Rim.
So your saying that D20 is the ONLY Official Traveller Universe? They are the only ones currently publishing stuff. You have to discount Gurps, because it's already been relegated to the Alternate Universe. All that work for the last 25 years down the tubes. I guess I'll have to throw away all my stuff from BITS (CORE) and my old JTAS, Digest and Challenge magazines...Since it's not considered a part of the OTU...
Er, no. In fact I didn't even mention T20. Pretty much all the stuff published in book form over the past 25 years (with a few exceptions that have been deliberately dropped from canon) are part of the OTU. GT and T20 are their own canon, as Anthony explained.
And I believe that JTAS and the digests are OTU too. Though there's probably all sorts of contradictions that spring up as a result of that.
I'm probably generalising somewhat. My point is that Marc Miller and the people who publish Traveller have decided and will decide what's officially canon. I imagine that they probably have a list of stuff that's been accepted somewhere.
I've been working on them, because I'd thought that maybe some other person would be interested in them and wish to NOT spend 6 months developing them. But since they probably won't see print (I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium) I guess I should just stop...
Why stop working on them? Just don't go under the impression that what you're doing is 'official canon' if it isn't. (though if you KNOW that it has been officially accepted as part of OTU canon then there's no problem. But that doesn't sound like the case here).
Even if you publish them on the web or by any other means, people can still be interested in them. Just because it's not part of the OTU doesn't make any homegrown Traveller stuff less valid - all it means is that it's not part of the official universe that everyone shares.
So the OTU ends at Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim...
gee, what an exciting place....
<yawn>
Not at all. Other sectors are there on the charted space maps. Some presumably have been also developed in MT and TNE books (Didn't the Diaspora sector get a book for itself for MT?). Of course it's not just the Spinward Marches and the Rim.
mad13142000
July 15th, 2003, 08:50 PM
Originally posted by Anthony:
Actually, the canon is what Marc Miller says it is, which doesn't include either GT or T20 at the moment; ... This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.
HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.
The canon debate is dumb...I can go over to the U of A and find a hundred people to play D&D, but would be hard pressed to find 4 that play Traveller. The reason has always been because of the 'Canon' thing. I can name several people who were involved in HIWG but dropped out due to attitude from the publishing companies over canon, and whether stuff developed by fans and players was worthy or not. Why else did GDW and other Traveller companies go belly up while other RPGs of worse caliber thrived? Probably because of the attitude that the fans and players were secondary to whatever twisted desires of publishers ...TNE was the final nail for most - why develop and write for JTAS or other publication when everything was for naught?
I DON'T have a problem with people in power deciding what direction the game takes - What I'm saying is that by deliberately taking the view that some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU, you are lowering the value of that setting. As far as I'm concerned, Core and HIWG are canon until Miller & Associates decides to publish something that counteracts it. If THEY say it's not, without publishing , then they doom the game to irrelevance in the greater RPG universe...
Is there any surprise that I have more original D&D stuff in my library than everything published for Traveller across all versions...If every time Traveller gets off and running, and someone comes along and cuts the legs out from under it because of canon issues, it'll never be as big as even the obscure RPGs - And I think Trav is better than those stupid Werewolves, Rifts, or....
The game is made up of publishers AND players, refs, and fans...
-MADDog
-------------------------------------------------
"And from now on, I don't care if my tea leaves spell 'Die Ron, Die' - I'm just chucking them in the bin where they belong."
Actually, the canon is what Marc Miller says it is, which doesn't include either GT or T20 at the moment; ... This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.
HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.
The canon debate is dumb...I can go over to the U of A and find a hundred people to play D&D, but would be hard pressed to find 4 that play Traveller. The reason has always been because of the 'Canon' thing. I can name several people who were involved in HIWG but dropped out due to attitude from the publishing companies over canon, and whether stuff developed by fans and players was worthy or not. Why else did GDW and other Traveller companies go belly up while other RPGs of worse caliber thrived? Probably because of the attitude that the fans and players were secondary to whatever twisted desires of publishers ...TNE was the final nail for most - why develop and write for JTAS or other publication when everything was for naught?
I DON'T have a problem with people in power deciding what direction the game takes - What I'm saying is that by deliberately taking the view that some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU, you are lowering the value of that setting. As far as I'm concerned, Core and HIWG are canon until Miller & Associates decides to publish something that counteracts it. If THEY say it's not, without publishing , then they doom the game to irrelevance in the greater RPG universe...
Is there any surprise that I have more original D&D stuff in my library than everything published for Traveller across all versions...If every time Traveller gets off and running, and someone comes along and cuts the legs out from under it because of canon issues, it'll never be as big as even the obscure RPGs - And I think Trav is better than those stupid Werewolves, Rifts, or....
The game is made up of publishers AND players, refs, and fans...
-MADDog
-------------------------------------------------
"And from now on, I don't care if my tea leaves spell 'Die Ron, Die' - I'm just chucking them in the bin where they belong."
hunter
July 15th, 2003, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Anthony:
Actually, the canon is what Marc Miller says it is, which doesn't include either GT or T20 at the moment;The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.
Hunter
Actually, the canon is what Marc Miller says it is, which doesn't include either GT or T20 at the moment;The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.
Hunter
EvilDrGanymede
July 15th, 2003, 09:11 PM
MADDog, that's all entirely your opinion. It's not reality, however. The fact remains that you aren't in a position to say what is official Traveller canon. However, you are in a position to decide what is acceptable to use in your own Traveller games.
Traveller's apparent lack of popularity most likely has very little to do with how 'restrictive' the official canon is. Hell, the canon of Star Trek, Babylon 5, or Star Wars is probably even more restrictive and they're wildly popular. But then you're comparing Traveller with d20, which is the undisputed juggernaut of the RPG market, outselling all of its competitors by several times. It's not exactly a fair comparison.
Traveller's apparent lack of popularity most likely has very little to do with how 'restrictive' the official canon is. Hell, the canon of Star Trek, Babylon 5, or Star Wars is probably even more restrictive and they're wildly popular. But then you're comparing Traveller with d20, which is the undisputed juggernaut of the RPG market, outselling all of its competitors by several times. It's not exactly a fair comparison.
hunter
July 15th, 2003, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Anthony:
Neither group is required to respect the other's canon, though they'll probably try to avoid deliberate incompatibilities.Yes we are required to respect each other's canon. The GT universe is quite 'canon' up until the point of divergence when Strephon was assasinated. If material from GT before that period exists, we use that and must conform to it.
This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.
HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.
Correct. We consult this material when we can get access to it, but we are not bound to follow it.
Marc has the final call on all of it however. Nothing is done without his ultimate approval.
Hunter
Neither group is required to respect the other's canon, though they'll probably try to avoid deliberate incompatibilities.Yes we are required to respect each other's canon. The GT universe is quite 'canon' up until the point of divergence when Strephon was assasinated. If material from GT before that period exists, we use that and must conform to it.
This does allow an additional level of canon: there's stuff that's not canon, but won't be contradicted unless necessary. An example of this would be the Genii sector files.
HIWG is not canonical. Neither is CORE.
Correct. We consult this material when we can get access to it, but we are not bound to follow it.
Marc has the final call on all of it however. Nothing is done without his ultimate approval.
Hunter
rancke
July 15th, 2003, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by MADDog:
I DON'T have a problem with people in power deciding what direction the game takes - What I'm saying is that by deliberately taking the view that some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU, you are lowering the value of that setting.To me canon is mostly a tool to help the publishers keep their story straight (and to allow fans to discuss the same things, which is always a good way to up the signal to noise ratio smile.gif ). But it is also a matter of respecting what previous contributors to the official game universe have done. As far as I'm concerned, some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU. You don't write an adventure that involves hyperspace radio, you don't give the Second Imperium TL 15, and you don't contradict what previous writers have established without thinking long and hard about it.
(Note that I'm not saying that previous published material is inviolable (I've advocated changing plenty of PPM myself over the years). But you don't change canon without knowing full well that you are changing it and making a deliberate and informed decision to do so.)
Hans
I DON'T have a problem with people in power deciding what direction the game takes - What I'm saying is that by deliberately taking the view that some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU, you are lowering the value of that setting.To me canon is mostly a tool to help the publishers keep their story straight (and to allow fans to discuss the same things, which is always a good way to up the signal to noise ratio smile.gif ). But it is also a matter of respecting what previous contributors to the official game universe have done. As far as I'm concerned, some things are not worthy of consideration in the OTU. You don't write an adventure that involves hyperspace radio, you don't give the Second Imperium TL 15, and you don't contradict what previous writers have established without thinking long and hard about it.
(Note that I'm not saying that previous published material is inviolable (I've advocated changing plenty of PPM myself over the years). But you don't change canon without knowing full well that you are changing it and making a deliberate and informed decision to do so.)
Hans
hunter
July 15th, 2003, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by MADDog:
(I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium)You would doubt wrong. We are already considering a short setting for the TA series set well outside of the Imperial boundaries. It has some issues that will need to be worked out before it *might* be approved.
I am also publishing Twilight, 2320AD, Legacy of the Aldenata using the Traveller rules. All of them being Alternate Traveller Universes. They are not set in the OTU setting at all.
Hunter
(I doubt Hunter decides to publish stuff NOT in the Imperium)You would doubt wrong. We are already considering a short setting for the TA series set well outside of the Imperial boundaries. It has some issues that will need to be worked out before it *might* be approved.
I am also publishing Twilight, 2320AD, Legacy of the Aldenata using the Traveller rules. All of them being Alternate Traveller Universes. They are not set in the OTU setting at all.
Hunter
hunter
July 15th, 2003, 09:25 PM
Bottom line canon is for publishers. For fans, canon lets everyone talk about the OTU setting from a common perspective. What you do with the material after it is published is up to you. My own campaigns diverge significantly from OTU canon.
Hunter
Hunter
rancke
July 15th, 2003, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
Yes we are required to respect each other's canon. The GT universe is quite 'canon' up until the point of divergence when Strephon was assasinated. If material from GT before that period exists, we use that and must conform to it.Hans spontaneously breaks into the Hallelujah Chorus while simultaneously doing a Dance of Joy.
<<Ahem>>
What I meant to say was, I'm very happy to hear that.
. :D :D :D
:D Hans :D
. :D :D :D
Yes we are required to respect each other's canon. The GT universe is quite 'canon' up until the point of divergence when Strephon was assasinated. If material from GT before that period exists, we use that and must conform to it.Hans spontaneously breaks into the Hallelujah Chorus while simultaneously doing a Dance of Joy.
<<Ahem>>
What I meant to say was, I'm very happy to hear that.
. :D :D :D
:D Hans :D
. :D :D :D
EvilDrGanymede
July 15th, 2003, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
I am also publishing Twilight, 2320AD, Legacy of the Aldenata using the Traveller rules. All of them being Alternate Traveller Universes. They are not set in the OTU setting at all.
Hunter [/QB]Mrr?! How on earth can Twilight 2000 and 2320AD be considered 'alternate traveller universes'? Surely it's not just because they're using the same rule set!
That seems like a very extreme definition of 'alternate' to me - it's like calling Babylon 5 and alternate Star Trek setting! Why not just say they're totally unrelated settings? (OK, I can see an internal historical link between T2000 and 2320AD, but not between 2320AD and Traveller).
Or am I missing some step in the logic here? :confused: :confused:
I am also publishing Twilight, 2320AD, Legacy of the Aldenata using the Traveller rules. All of them being Alternate Traveller Universes. They are not set in the OTU setting at all.
Hunter [/QB]Mrr?! How on earth can Twilight 2000 and 2320AD be considered 'alternate traveller universes'? Surely it's not just because they're using the same rule set!
That seems like a very extreme definition of 'alternate' to me - it's like calling Babylon 5 and alternate Star Trek setting! Why not just say they're totally unrelated settings? (OK, I can see an internal historical link between T2000 and 2320AD, but not between 2320AD and Traveller).
Or am I missing some step in the logic here? :confused: :confused:
hunter
July 15th, 2003, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Mrr?! How on earth can Twilight 2000 and 2320AD be considered 'alternate traveller universes'? Surely it's not just because they're using the same rule set!
That seems like a very extreme definition of 'alternate' to me - it's like calling Babylon 5 and alternate Star Trek setting! Why not just say they're totally unrelated settings? (OK, I can see an internal historical link between T2000 and 2320AD, but not between 2320AD and Traveller).
Or am I missing some step in the logic here? :confused: :confused: How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?
Hunter
Mrr?! How on earth can Twilight 2000 and 2320AD be considered 'alternate traveller universes'? Surely it's not just because they're using the same rule set!
That seems like a very extreme definition of 'alternate' to me - it's like calling Babylon 5 and alternate Star Trek setting! Why not just say they're totally unrelated settings? (OK, I can see an internal historical link between T2000 and 2320AD, but not between 2320AD and Traveller).
Or am I missing some step in the logic here? :confused: :confused: How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?
Hunter
rancke
July 15th, 2003, 10:24 PM
Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?I have to side with Constantine on this one. (But then, I regard the background as the essence of Traveller while considering rules sets merely different tools for describing the setting. I'm aware that others are of a different opinion).
To be an alternate Traveller universe (IMO, that is), the T2000 universe would have to have Vilani and Aslan and Vargr (Oh my!). If 2300 AD had been about humans who had gotten star travel a century delayed and went out there to find a shattered First Imperium with Vargr prowling through the ruined cities on Vland and the Karun of the Rim ruling a small successor state from Muan Gwi, then the T2000/2300 AD universe would be an alternate Traveller universe even if you used Rolemaster rules to describe it. Contrariwise the Babylon 5 universe wouldn't (again, IMO) become an alternate Traveller universe just because you used T20 rules to describe it.
Hans
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?I have to side with Constantine on this one. (But then, I regard the background as the essence of Traveller while considering rules sets merely different tools for describing the setting. I'm aware that others are of a different opinion).
To be an alternate Traveller universe (IMO, that is), the T2000 universe would have to have Vilani and Aslan and Vargr (Oh my!). If 2300 AD had been about humans who had gotten star travel a century delayed and went out there to find a shattered First Imperium with Vargr prowling through the ruined cities on Vland and the Karun of the Rim ruling a small successor state from Muan Gwi, then the T2000/2300 AD universe would be an alternate Traveller universe even if you used Rolemaster rules to describe it. Contrariwise the Babylon 5 universe wouldn't (again, IMO) become an alternate Traveller universe just because you used T20 rules to describe it.
Hans
mad13142000
July 15th, 2003, 10:31 PM
Be that as it may...
Saulweaver asked if there was anything about rimward from Sol - I answered on info I have from HIWG and Core...
If a publisher wants to print an item expanding on that, FINE. But that doesn't change that people who HAVE written Official stuff, who also do work on the side for Core and HIWG, wrote some info to tie together things not written WITH things Oficially written...
Once again - I didn't question the whole canon nonesense, I quoted stuff that exists - that Core and HIWG shall remain canon for me until otherwise said. I didn't say stuff about teleporting hyperspace communicators or disintegration pistols. He asked - I answered. If he wants to take a map from Core and put his own empire in it, FINE - But let's not be all wanting to toss out the maps, when more maps exist for "non-canon" sectors than exist for "canon" sectors...All because they come from BITS or HIWG instead of from FFE, D20, or Gurps.
BTW - Evil thing in Amderstun Sector is from G:T - Aliens Races 4 pg. 127 - "...present locus of the Dominion is a couple of sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim."
tongue.gif
I don't make things up...
-MADDog
Saulweaver asked if there was anything about rimward from Sol - I answered on info I have from HIWG and Core...
If a publisher wants to print an item expanding on that, FINE. But that doesn't change that people who HAVE written Official stuff, who also do work on the side for Core and HIWG, wrote some info to tie together things not written WITH things Oficially written...
Once again - I didn't question the whole canon nonesense, I quoted stuff that exists - that Core and HIWG shall remain canon for me until otherwise said. I didn't say stuff about teleporting hyperspace communicators or disintegration pistols. He asked - I answered. If he wants to take a map from Core and put his own empire in it, FINE - But let's not be all wanting to toss out the maps, when more maps exist for "non-canon" sectors than exist for "canon" sectors...All because they come from BITS or HIWG instead of from FFE, D20, or Gurps.
BTW - Evil thing in Amderstun Sector is from G:T - Aliens Races 4 pg. 127 - "...present locus of the Dominion is a couple of sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim."
tongue.gif
I don't make things up...
-MADDog
hunter
July 15th, 2003, 10:46 PM
Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?I have to side with Constantine on this one. (But then, I regard the background as the essence of Traveller while considering rules sets merely different tools for describing the setting. I'm aware that others are of a different opinion).
To be an alternate Traveller universe (IMO, that is), the T2000 universe would have to have Vilani and Aslan and Vargr (Oh my!). If 2300 AD had been about humans who had gotten star travel a century delayed and went out there to find a shattered First Imperium with Vargr prowling through the ruined cities on Vland and the Karun of the Rim ruling a small successor state from Muan Gwi, then the T2000/2300 AD universe would be an alternate Traveller universe even if you used Rolemaster rules to describe it. Contrariwise the Babylon 5 universe wouldn't (again, IMO) become an alternate Traveller universe just because you used T20 rules to describe it.</font>[/QUOTE]A valid way to look at it but not one we share.
We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.
Hunter
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?I have to side with Constantine on this one. (But then, I regard the background as the essence of Traveller while considering rules sets merely different tools for describing the setting. I'm aware that others are of a different opinion).
To be an alternate Traveller universe (IMO, that is), the T2000 universe would have to have Vilani and Aslan and Vargr (Oh my!). If 2300 AD had been about humans who had gotten star travel a century delayed and went out there to find a shattered First Imperium with Vargr prowling through the ruined cities on Vland and the Karun of the Rim ruling a small successor state from Muan Gwi, then the T2000/2300 AD universe would be an alternate Traveller universe even if you used Rolemaster rules to describe it. Contrariwise the Babylon 5 universe wouldn't (again, IMO) become an alternate Traveller universe just because you used T20 rules to describe it.</font>[/QUOTE]A valid way to look at it but not one we share.
We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.
Hunter
Baron Saarthuran
July 16th, 2003, 12:18 AM
By Margaret's Embroidered Girdle! I'm in agreement with Hunter!!!
The universe is writ large, My Lords, and even the most developed adventure or campaign has room to be expounded on... millions of small details are a part of everyday existence on this planet, surely there is room enough in an entire universe for virtually anything can happen or be.
This balderdash about canon or non canon strikes me as very subjective, what? I have never in my "career" come across a game that goes strictly "By the Numbers". Such an occurance would imply a Referee with no imagination, which we all know is patently preposterous...
I freely admit that I have few kind words to say for anything that isn't CT or T20, I feel that the "pretenders to the throne" have bogged it down in a miasma of goofy rules and ill-conceived design systems, to say nothing for the nihilistic so-called "plot-lines" (the assassination and Rebellion, the virus (PU), and the Rise of Justin Timberlake, etc.) to the background.
Be that as it may, I see elements of these as a resource to augment a campaign. But then again, is that not the nature of the Beast, what?
graemlins/omega.gif
The universe is writ large, My Lords, and even the most developed adventure or campaign has room to be expounded on... millions of small details are a part of everyday existence on this planet, surely there is room enough in an entire universe for virtually anything can happen or be.
This balderdash about canon or non canon strikes me as very subjective, what? I have never in my "career" come across a game that goes strictly "By the Numbers". Such an occurance would imply a Referee with no imagination, which we all know is patently preposterous...
I freely admit that I have few kind words to say for anything that isn't CT or T20, I feel that the "pretenders to the throne" have bogged it down in a miasma of goofy rules and ill-conceived design systems, to say nothing for the nihilistic so-called "plot-lines" (the assassination and Rebellion, the virus (PU), and the Rise of Justin Timberlake, etc.) to the background.
Be that as it may, I see elements of these as a resource to augment a campaign. But then again, is that not the nature of the Beast, what?
graemlins/omega.gif
Anthony
July 16th, 2003, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by hunter:
The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.
Hunter Interesting. Been a while since I saw the MM quote on what was 'canon', which basically stopped at the beginning of megatraveller; it's certainly possible that the definition has been revised.
The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.
Hunter Interesting. Been a while since I saw the MM quote on what was 'canon', which basically stopped at the beginning of megatraveller; it's certainly possible that the definition has been revised.
ninthcouncil
July 16th, 2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by MADDog:
BTW - Evil thing in Amderstun Sector is from G:T - Aliens Races 4 pg. 127 - "...present locus of the Dominion is a couple of sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim." tongue.gif
Ah - those Very Bad Things! I'd competely forgotten about them - didn't like the idea much and didn't really register where they were based.
As you say, there's a Viruns-scale potential to really screw with things...
BTW - Evil thing in Amderstun Sector is from G:T - Aliens Races 4 pg. 127 - "...present locus of the Dominion is a couple of sectors rimward of the Solomani Rim." tongue.gif
Ah - those Very Bad Things! I'd competely forgotten about them - didn't like the idea much and didn't really register where they were based.
As you say, there's a Viruns-scale potential to really screw with things...
EvilDrGanymede
July 16th, 2003, 04:24 AM
Hunter - I'm not trying to argue with you here or anything, I'm just trying to get my head around what you said... So please bear that in mind when you read this smile.gif .
Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?Well, would you say that Dark Sun is an alternate Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft setting? They're all D&D2e, after all....
Or that GURPS Cabal is an alternate of GURPS Cyberworld? (might be getting obscure there. I'm racking my brains trying to think of default GURPS worldbooks that aren't licenses or PbG!). They both use GURPS rules, so by your logic they're alternate universes, right?
Even better, would you say that T20 is an alternate D&D setting? If not, why not? They use the same rules too don't they? (and they possibly intersect with eachother more than the D&D2e games I mentioned).
Maybe it's down to the word 'alternate'. To me at least, that implies that it's something that might have happened in the primary setting had history been a bit different (probably from 'alternate histories', 'alternate worlds', and 'alternate universes'). Yet clearly, this can't be the case for GURPS or D&D settings - they're totally distinct. Traditionally, haven't 2300AD and Traveller been totally distinct too?
We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.
OK, you feel that Traveller is more than the Imperium Setting... but do SJG and FFE agree? If you start labelling other things as alternate Traveller settings, isn't it all going to become very confusing for the other companies? For example, (hypothetically, license restrictions notwithstanding) what if SJG decides that your precedent allows them to release Transhuman Space as an 'alternate Traveller universe'? It'd be using GURPS rules, just like GURPS Traveller, so technically they'd be correct to do so, wouldn't they?
As it is, they're going to be releasing Interstellar Wars eventually, and you're going to be releasing TNE:1248 hopefully, and those are both quite justifiably 'alternate Traveller universes' since they are both set in some variation of the default OTU. But if you release TNE:1248 alongside other wildly different 'alternate Traveller universes' I think it's going to get that much more difficult for people to see it for what it really is.
Agh. I'm really confused by this now... :confused: :confused:
How about this. Would you consider using the 'Traveller' label to denote the specific setting, and the 'T20' label to denote the ruleset you're using ? So Twilight 2000 and 2320AD would be labelled as 'alternate T20 settings' since they use the same rules, but they wouldn't be labelled as 'alternate Traveller settings' since that's a specific universe (one with Aslan, Vargr, far traders, ancients, spinward marches, Gateway, and all that)?
Originally posted by hunter:
How is this any different from having multiple settings for say D&D or GURPS?Well, would you say that Dark Sun is an alternate Forgotten Realms or Ravenloft setting? They're all D&D2e, after all....
Or that GURPS Cabal is an alternate of GURPS Cyberworld? (might be getting obscure there. I'm racking my brains trying to think of default GURPS worldbooks that aren't licenses or PbG!). They both use GURPS rules, so by your logic they're alternate universes, right?
Even better, would you say that T20 is an alternate D&D setting? If not, why not? They use the same rules too don't they? (and they possibly intersect with eachother more than the D&D2e games I mentioned).
Maybe it's down to the word 'alternate'. To me at least, that implies that it's something that might have happened in the primary setting had history been a bit different (probably from 'alternate histories', 'alternate worlds', and 'alternate universes'). Yet clearly, this can't be the case for GURPS or D&D settings - they're totally distinct. Traditionally, haven't 2300AD and Traveller been totally distinct too?
We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.
OK, you feel that Traveller is more than the Imperium Setting... but do SJG and FFE agree? If you start labelling other things as alternate Traveller settings, isn't it all going to become very confusing for the other companies? For example, (hypothetically, license restrictions notwithstanding) what if SJG decides that your precedent allows them to release Transhuman Space as an 'alternate Traveller universe'? It'd be using GURPS rules, just like GURPS Traveller, so technically they'd be correct to do so, wouldn't they?
As it is, they're going to be releasing Interstellar Wars eventually, and you're going to be releasing TNE:1248 hopefully, and those are both quite justifiably 'alternate Traveller universes' since they are both set in some variation of the default OTU. But if you release TNE:1248 alongside other wildly different 'alternate Traveller universes' I think it's going to get that much more difficult for people to see it for what it really is.
Agh. I'm really confused by this now... :confused: :confused:
How about this. Would you consider using the 'Traveller' label to denote the specific setting, and the 'T20' label to denote the ruleset you're using ? So Twilight 2000 and 2320AD would be labelled as 'alternate T20 settings' since they use the same rules, but they wouldn't be labelled as 'alternate Traveller settings' since that's a specific universe (one with Aslan, Vargr, far traders, ancients, spinward marches, Gateway, and all that)?
EvilDrGanymede
July 16th, 2003, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by MADDog:
Be that as it may...
Saulweaver asked if there was anything about rimward from Sol - I answered on info I have from HIWG and Core...
He asked if there was any canonical information about the Solomani on the frontier. If someone specifies 'canonical' that usually means 'information presented in an officially published and sanctioned part of the Traveller universe'.
'canonical' doesn't mean 'something that's not been incorporated into the OTU but whose existence the publishers of Traveller may or may not be too fussed about'.
Unless that definition's changed since last time I encountered the expression, but I don't think it has.
Once again - I didn't question the whole canon nonesense, I quoted stuff that exists - that Core and HIWG shall remain canon for me until otherwise said.
The point is that what's canon for you isn't canon for everyone else. Hell, I don't even know what Core or HIWG are, but I don't care because I'm not missing out on any OTU canon. If I'm going off to hunt facts about the OTU and its history, then I'm only going to be interested in the OTU canon.
If he wants to take a map from Core and put his own empire in it, FINE - But let's not be all wanting to toss out the maps, when more maps exist for "non-canon" sectors than exist for "canon" sectors...
But there's no obligation to use those maps at all. Hell, I've got lots of Traveller world and subsector generation books, are those all suddenly useless to me because somebody somewhere has mapped the entire Imperium according to their own concepts already? Am I now obliged to agree that a given sector in CORE or HIWG may be marked as totally unexplored, when I want it to be a fully populated region in my own Traveller games? I don't think I am, somehow.
Be that as it may...
Saulweaver asked if there was anything about rimward from Sol - I answered on info I have from HIWG and Core...
He asked if there was any canonical information about the Solomani on the frontier. If someone specifies 'canonical' that usually means 'information presented in an officially published and sanctioned part of the Traveller universe'.
'canonical' doesn't mean 'something that's not been incorporated into the OTU but whose existence the publishers of Traveller may or may not be too fussed about'.
Unless that definition's changed since last time I encountered the expression, but I don't think it has.
Once again - I didn't question the whole canon nonesense, I quoted stuff that exists - that Core and HIWG shall remain canon for me until otherwise said.
The point is that what's canon for you isn't canon for everyone else. Hell, I don't even know what Core or HIWG are, but I don't care because I'm not missing out on any OTU canon. If I'm going off to hunt facts about the OTU and its history, then I'm only going to be interested in the OTU canon.
If he wants to take a map from Core and put his own empire in it, FINE - But let's not be all wanting to toss out the maps, when more maps exist for "non-canon" sectors than exist for "canon" sectors...
But there's no obligation to use those maps at all. Hell, I've got lots of Traveller world and subsector generation books, are those all suddenly useless to me because somebody somewhere has mapped the entire Imperium according to their own concepts already? Am I now obliged to agree that a given sector in CORE or HIWG may be marked as totally unexplored, when I want it to be a fully populated region in my own Traveller games? I don't think I am, somehow.
mad13142000
July 16th, 2003, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Evil Dr Ganymede:
Hell, I don't even know what Core or HIWG are, but I don't care because I'm not missing out on any OTU canon. I rest my case on 'Canonistas'
-MADDog
Hell, I don't even know what Core or HIWG are, but I don't care because I'm not missing out on any OTU canon. I rest my case on 'Canonistas'
-MADDog
EvilDrGanymede
July 16th, 2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by MADDog:
I rest my case on 'Canonistas'
-MADDog *snort* You saying I'm a 'canonista'?! graemlins/file_21.gif
Just because I said that if I wanted to know anything about the background that's been officially published then I'd naturally only be interested in the official background?!
For my own purposes, I don't give a hoot about the official background. I regularly trample Traveller canon underfoot if it gets in the way. I'm only generally interested in discussing the shared universe that is the OTU, not in playing in it. As Hunter says, the OTU is a common ground that most people here know about. But just because someone says that so-and-so is canon, doesn't mean I'm obliged to stick to it in a game I run. It's useful to know, yes - but I'm not bound by some agreement to use it.
Let me put it this way. If you wanted to know about something that happened to Captain Kirk in his youth, what would you hold as more 'correct' - some fiction that a fan wrote when they were in high school, or something from the official background?
I rest my case on 'Canonistas'
-MADDog *snort* You saying I'm a 'canonista'?! graemlins/file_21.gif
Just because I said that if I wanted to know anything about the background that's been officially published then I'd naturally only be interested in the official background?!
For my own purposes, I don't give a hoot about the official background. I regularly trample Traveller canon underfoot if it gets in the way. I'm only generally interested in discussing the shared universe that is the OTU, not in playing in it. As Hunter says, the OTU is a common ground that most people here know about. But just because someone says that so-and-so is canon, doesn't mean I'm obliged to stick to it in a game I run. It's useful to know, yes - but I'm not bound by some agreement to use it.
Let me put it this way. If you wanted to know about something that happened to Captain Kirk in his youth, what would you hold as more 'correct' - some fiction that a fan wrote when they were in high school, or something from the official background?
hunter
July 16th, 2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.
Hunter Interesting. Been a while since I saw the MM quote on what was 'canon', which basically stopped at the beginning of megatraveller; it's certainly possible that the definition has been revised. </font>[/QUOTE]I'll tell you what Marc told me. Remember the old JG stuff, or most of the old non-GDW produced material. It was decanonized right? Well to be decanonized it must have been canon at one time.
While it is possible that the T20 setting materials might be decanonized at some point, that will only happen if Marc doesn't like what we've done or he feels it significantly deviates from previously published canon material. Considering that Marc must approve everything that it published under the Traveller name these days, that pretty much assures that he likes (or at least approves of) the material. Not to mention the fact he has specifically to me he likes what we are doing.
So basically, unless at some point in the future Marc elects to 'decanonize' the material, it IS canon.
In case your curious, this information is as recent as today when I spoke with him and reconfirmed it.
Hunter
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hunter:
The setting material for T20 is OTU canon.
Hunter Interesting. Been a while since I saw the MM quote on what was 'canon', which basically stopped at the beginning of megatraveller; it's certainly possible that the definition has been revised. </font>[/QUOTE]I'll tell you what Marc told me. Remember the old JG stuff, or most of the old non-GDW produced material. It was decanonized right? Well to be decanonized it must have been canon at one time.
While it is possible that the T20 setting materials might be decanonized at some point, that will only happen if Marc doesn't like what we've done or he feels it significantly deviates from previously published canon material. Considering that Marc must approve everything that it published under the Traveller name these days, that pretty much assures that he likes (or at least approves of) the material. Not to mention the fact he has specifically to me he likes what we are doing.
So basically, unless at some point in the future Marc elects to 'decanonize' the material, it IS canon.
In case your curious, this information is as recent as today when I spoke with him and reconfirmed it.
Hunter
Liam Devlin
July 17th, 2003, 02:08 AM
...Thanks fer the update boss !!!!<looks fondly at all the stuff in Library with logo traveller on it [from CT-T20], smiles.. And its all Good..<smiles>.
rancke
July 18th, 2003, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by hunter:
A valid way to look at it but not one we share.
We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.
Well, let me just add one bit I forgot to include in my previous post before I stop belabouring this equine carcass:
The game with the number 2300 in its title was originally called Traveller 2300. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the reason it got changed to 2300 AD was that so many fans were upset that it wasn't really Traveller (I know I was, although I didn't write to GDW about it (I just didn't buy it)).
So apparently I'm not the only one who thinks like that. graemlins/file_22.gif
Hans
A valid way to look at it but not one we share.
We feel Traveller IS more than the universe of the Imperium and its history. It is a game of science fiction adventure. The Imperium is its 'official' setting, but by no means the only possible setting.
Well, let me just add one bit I forgot to include in my previous post before I stop belabouring this equine carcass:
The game with the number 2300 in its title was originally called Traveller 2300. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong) the reason it got changed to 2300 AD was that so many fans were upset that it wasn't really Traveller (I know I was, although I didn't write to GDW about it (I just didn't buy it)).
So apparently I'm not the only one who thinks like that. graemlins/file_22.gif
Hans
EvilDrGanymede
July 18th, 2003, 03:10 AM
I got into the game when it was called 2300AD, but I was aware of its previous incarnation... and I too wondered why it had the Traveller label when it clearly wasn't.
Elliot
July 18th, 2003, 04:43 AM
If I remember correctly the excuse that came out when Traveller 2300 came out was that 'Traveller' was the name for GDW's science fiction games. Many GDW customers (i know as at the time i was working in a RPG shop) bought the game thinking it was Traveller set at the time of the Terran Confederation. They were not always happy to find out that it was, in fact, set 300 years after Twighlight 2000 and that the French were the hot power!!!!! graemlins/file_28.gif
T2300 was a cynical ploy by GDW to launch a new game surfing on the wave of CT's good will, in my view it damaged Traveller slightly.
However, it was a good game, a nice setting (although as I was committed to MT at the time I didn't buy it) and I hope that D20 2300AD does well.
T2300 was a cynical ploy by GDW to launch a new game surfing on the wave of CT's good will, in my view it damaged Traveller slightly.
However, it was a good game, a nice setting (although as I was committed to MT at the time I didn't buy it) and I hope that D20 2300AD does well.
saulweaver
July 23rd, 2003, 03:50 PM
With reference to the original topic, a site referenced in another thread has a map (http://www.geocities.com/traveller_core_route/galaxy.zip) purporting to be from Marc Miller, which shows a line extending out of known space towards the rim. It is titled the "Solomani Exploration." Of course there is another line out of the other end of known space titled "Zhodani Core Route." It seems like the Solomani are doing more than just planning revenge on the hated Imperials.
trader jim
July 23rd, 2003, 05:05 PM
did you just say , in a round about way ,that CLASSIC material IS NOT CANON????...answer just YES or NO, please :confused:
saulweaver
July 31st, 2003, 10:09 PM
trader jim: I'm sorry if that question is directed at me, but I'm not sure what you are getting at.
Does anyone have any more information on this Solomani Rim Exploration thing. It apparently originated in DGP's Aslan & Solomani, which, sadly, is missing from my collection. That came out while I was in college and at the time I wasting my money on tuition and bourbon instead of role playing games. Any additional inoformation would be most appreciated.
The MT Encyclopedia mentions that exploration to rimward has progressed 3,000 parsecs IIRC. Is this Solomani Exploration thing a serious colonization and exploration effort, or just two guys in a scout ship?
Does anyone have any more information on this Solomani Rim Exploration thing. It apparently originated in DGP's Aslan & Solomani, which, sadly, is missing from my collection. That came out while I was in college and at the time I wasting my money on tuition and bourbon instead of role playing games. Any additional inoformation would be most appreciated.
The MT Encyclopedia mentions that exploration to rimward has progressed 3,000 parsecs IIRC. Is this Solomani Exploration thing a serious colonization and exploration effort, or just two guys in a scout ship?
mike wightman
August 1st, 2003, 08:00 AM
DGP's Solomani & Aslan contains two paragraphs which can be summarised as follows.
The Perseus Project was initiated in 5589AD(1071 Imp). This comprised 17 base ships which were launched towards the Perseus Arm of the galaxy (the next spiral arm beyond our own Orion Spur's Sagittarian Arm).
Each ship was independantly sponsored and commanded but they did meet occasionally to share info gathered.
The Iouo was the last to return in 5624AD(1106 Imp). It had made it almost 3000 parsecs to the systems on the border of the Auriga Arm.
Three of the 17 have not been heard from since they entered the Perseus Arm. One of these is the Home, the largest ship constructed.
Hope this info helps, I'll read through a few more times to see if there is anything else.
The Perseus Project was initiated in 5589AD(1071 Imp). This comprised 17 base ships which were launched towards the Perseus Arm of the galaxy (the next spiral arm beyond our own Orion Spur's Sagittarian Arm).
Each ship was independantly sponsored and commanded but they did meet occasionally to share info gathered.
The Iouo was the last to return in 5624AD(1106 Imp). It had made it almost 3000 parsecs to the systems on the border of the Auriga Arm.
Three of the 17 have not been heard from since they entered the Perseus Arm. One of these is the Home, the largest ship constructed.
Hope this info helps, I'll read through a few more times to see if there is anything else.
saulweaver
August 4th, 2003, 12:21 AM
Thanks very much from that information from A&S. Does it mention how big the ships are, or how many crew they carried?
Something else I noticed buried in Supp. 10: "The Solomani Confederation generates a great deal of propaganda regarding the future liberation of Terra and reconquest of its lost territories, but border incidents are rare; the Solomani government has transferred its real attention to its rimward frontier."
Something else I noticed buried in Supp. 10: "The Solomani Confederation generates a great deal of propaganda regarding the future liberation of Terra and reconquest of its lost territories, but border incidents are rare; the Solomani government has transferred its real attention to its rimward frontier."
kaladorn
August 4th, 2003, 03:52 PM
After reading Saulweaver and Sigg Oddra's excellent information, I wonder if the MADDog has any other HIWG or CORE references to contribute?
From what I see from the first two, we have a Solomani expedition 'out there' that goes a long way (3000 parsecs is what, about 3000/40 = 75 sectors deep?) Rimward. We know the corridor is limited at one point to a three sector bottleneck (no biggie, that's still 250 parsecs or so?) but may expand out beyond that. But where does this suggest 'something big and evil'? So far we only know that some ships were lost. So? Welcome to exploration. Misjump? Collision (or near approach) with a massive object while in Jumpspace forcing a percipitation out of Jump in nowhere useful? It seems to me we don't know.
And it seems to me logical the Solomani would become preoccupied with new unoccupied or unconquered territory - far *easier* to get a hold of than stuff you have to fight a marginally superior empire for! This just seems normal for any Empire.
So far I don't see a lot of reference to tell me why we should suspect something nasty of being out there? Anyone care to provide some additional references? (I do have to go pull out Alien Races 4 from GT to look up the reference MADDog gave).
From what I see from the first two, we have a Solomani expedition 'out there' that goes a long way (3000 parsecs is what, about 3000/40 = 75 sectors deep?) Rimward. We know the corridor is limited at one point to a three sector bottleneck (no biggie, that's still 250 parsecs or so?) but may expand out beyond that. But where does this suggest 'something big and evil'? So far we only know that some ships were lost. So? Welcome to exploration. Misjump? Collision (or near approach) with a massive object while in Jumpspace forcing a percipitation out of Jump in nowhere useful? It seems to me we don't know.
And it seems to me logical the Solomani would become preoccupied with new unoccupied or unconquered territory - far *easier* to get a hold of than stuff you have to fight a marginally superior empire for! This just seems normal for any Empire.
So far I don't see a lot of reference to tell me why we should suspect something nasty of being out there? Anyone care to provide some additional references? (I do have to go pull out Alien Races 4 from GT to look up the reference MADDog gave).
mad13142000
August 4th, 2003, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by kaladorn:
After reading Saulweaver and Sigg Oddra's excellent information, I wonder if the MADDog has any other HIWG or CORE references to contribute?
<snip>
(I do have to go pull out Alien Races 4 from GT to look up the reference MADDog gave). Yes, my 'big nasty' reference is specific to G:T Aliens 4...
According to my HIWG maps, there IS a large rift that cuts across rimward of the sollies. It starts in Tracerie Sector, and cuts down around the bottom of Phlange, Rimreach (hence the name - The Rim is still almost 2500 parsecs from here), ans Tahahorol. It then cuts up into Eose'o Sector to end. Thus the Aslan have a better rate of expansion to rimward than the sollies do. The Rift in question extends almost 5 sectors deep in places, although there is a large 'island' in the middle of it - I believe it is possibly the Pleadies cluster, or another Drift...
But personally, I think the reason the Sollies are so slow at expansion Rimward is a psychological one - They still spend many hours a day longing for Terra. If they are so focused inward, they won't be as gung-ho to look outward.
-MADDog
-------------------------------------------------
"Where'd that stupid sig line go? I just had it here...too many little pieces of paper..."
After reading Saulweaver and Sigg Oddra's excellent information, I wonder if the MADDog has any other HIWG or CORE references to contribute?
<snip>
(I do have to go pull out Alien Races 4 from GT to look up the reference MADDog gave). Yes, my 'big nasty' reference is specific to G:T Aliens 4...
According to my HIWG maps, there IS a large rift that cuts across rimward of the sollies. It starts in Tracerie Sector, and cuts down around the bottom of Phlange, Rimreach (hence the name - The Rim is still almost 2500 parsecs from here), ans Tahahorol. It then cuts up into Eose'o Sector to end. Thus the Aslan have a better rate of expansion to rimward than the sollies do. The Rift in question extends almost 5 sectors deep in places, although there is a large 'island' in the middle of it - I believe it is possibly the Pleadies cluster, or another Drift...
But personally, I think the reason the Sollies are so slow at expansion Rimward is a psychological one - They still spend many hours a day longing for Terra. If they are so focused inward, they won't be as gung-ho to look outward.
-MADDog
-------------------------------------------------
"Where'd that stupid sig line go? I just had it here...too many little pieces of paper..."
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